Free State Project Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Pages: [1] 2 3 4   Go Down

Author Topic: NH fans should look at *ID* 2nd  (Read 13221 times)

varrin

  • Former FSP President
  • FSP Participant
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 999
  • THE air male
    • Varrin's FSP Info Page
NH fans should look at *ID* 2nd
« on: June 24, 2003, 01:07:35 pm »

After reading the obviously manipulative attempt to get NH fans to put WY second, I began to think this thought:  "what state *should* NH fans put 2nd?"

Now it's no secret that I've long supported Idaho, so it won't come as any surprise that I'd say put ID second.  However, when looking at states that might appeal more to NH fans, it seem ID is far more likely to appeal than WY.  Here's a half a dozen reasons:

1: Population - NH supporters clearly aren't concerned about the population gap between NH and WY.  In fact, they might like having a few more people around.  ID is roughly comparable in population to NH.

2:  Jobs - NH offers good job opportunities.  ID offeres great job opportunities.  WY's job forcast is lousy.

3:  Weather - WY might have decent weather (according to some), however ID's weather is clearly more diverse and offers not only what NH fans might like, but also what just about anyone else might like.  Weather is one factor we *can not* change.

4:  Geography - Again, ID offers better geographic diversity than WY (a quick airplane ride over either state reveals that).

5:  International border - NH has coastline which neither WY nor ID can offer.  However ID does have an international border; WY does not.

6:  Metro area - NH people may have an interest in a bigger city.  Cheyenne (the largest city in WY) isn't a big city.  Boise is.  

These reasons seem to me like *real* reasons to consider ID.  I'm not trying to bash WY (though it falls lower on my personal list), however when looking at the reasons someone might vote for NH, I see a lot more in common with ID than I do WY.

Flames please (as if that's avoidable)

V-

Logged
Departed Fresno, PRC (Peoples Republic of California): October 18, 2004
Arrived Keene, FS (Free State!): October 25, 2004!
To contact me, please use email, not PM here.

Steve

  • FSP Board Member
  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 666
  • La Vero vin liberigos
    • Elegant Solutions
Re:NH fans should look at *ID* 2nd
« Reply #1 on: June 24, 2003, 01:35:41 pm »

There are so many factors that result in a score, your first and second choices could bear little resemblance to each other; for example, my one and two choices are NH and WY respectively, for very different reasons.

Quote
1: Population - NH supporters clearly aren't concerned about the population gap between NH and WY.  
I am an NH supporter, but I am also very concerned about population! If not NH, I would prefer WY because the low-population factor is so critically important to success.  While it really irritates me that so many people latch onto one favorite factor as a litmus test, low population really is fundamental.  Indeed, it is the basis of how we created the short list in the first place.

I do hope that people are playing with the state comparison spreadsheet, a tool that lessens the role of emotion in the decision-making process.  
Logged

Karl

  • Guest
Re:NH fans should look at *ID* 2nd
« Reply #2 on: June 24, 2003, 01:50:40 pm »

1: Population - NH supporters clearly aren't concerned about the population gap between NH and WY.  In fact, they might like having a few more people around.  ID is roughly comparable in population to NH.

Well, I'm not sure that's true.  NH makes up for its larger population by having a far more accessible electoral system.  There are hundreds of municipalities in NH and hundreds of minor elective offices such as library trustee or cemetary trustee, many of which are uncontested or vacant, whereas western states' local government is concentrated at the county level, and have fewer lower offices.  Given that most of us are largely inexperienced in politics, the advantage of NH's training ground is significant.  In NH, virtually every porcupine who wants to be elected can be, if they're willing to move to the right place and take less competitive offices.  In western states, we'll have to work harder in more competitive races to change whole counties, a hurdle that our inexperienced members will find hard to overcome.

I will probably choose WY second after NH, because its lower population somewhat makes up for much of its less accessible electoral system and constitutional mandates for government schools.
Logged

jgmaynard

  • FSP Shadow Advertising
  • FSP Participant
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2288
    • The Light of Alexandria
Re:NH fans should look at *ID* 2nd
« Reply #3 on: June 24, 2003, 02:19:57 pm »

Hank - with all due respect, you are pigeon-holing people too easily. Take a look at the size towns most NH-based NH supporters are in - Grafton, Somersworth, Keene.... NOT very large places... Rich Tomasso (Nashua) is the only NH-based one of us who is in a large city.

Varrin - You are in for a pleasent suprise. Today is conspiring against me trying to write a review of the 1st 3 days of the Escape....

JM
Logged
The Light of Alexandria By James Maynard

A history of the first 1,000 years of science, and how it changed the ancient world, and our world today.



http://www.lightofalexandria.com

freedomroad

  • Guest
Re:NH fans should look at *Wyoming* 2nd
« Reply #4 on: June 24, 2003, 02:19:58 pm »

1: Population - NH supporters clearly aren't concerned about the population gap between NH and WY.  In fact, they might like having a few more people around.  ID is roughly comparable in population to NH.

Several NH supporters that I know are concerned about population.  Most of these same supporters view WY and NH as the 2 most libertarian states in the country.  While I may not agree with that, there is almost no argument that NH is the most libertarian Eastern state and Wyoming is the most libertarian Western states.  NH's population, while very high compared to Wyoming, is not bad enough for some people to say, OH CRAP!  However, ID has a larger population and it is growing very quickly and there is NO END is site.

Quote
2:  Jobs - NH offers good job opportunities.  ID offers great job opportunities.  WY's job forecast is lousy.
On a per capital per population growth level, NH and WY are almost the same.  On unemployment rates, both NH and WY are only .1% different.  On the other hand, going back to the 70s, Idaho has had high unemployment rates.

Quote
3:  Weather - WY might have decent weather (according to some), however ID's weather is clearly more diverse and offers not only what NH fans might like, but also what just about anyone else might like.  Weather is one factor we *can not* change.
While ID is the 2nd warmest state, WY is 3rd, and NH is 5th.  There should not be much difference.  Going from the 5th warmest state to the 2nd or 3rd should not make much difference, either yaw it is better.

Quote
6:  Metro area - NH people may have an interest in a bigger city.  Cheyenne (the largest city in WY) isn't a big city.  Boise is.  

Idaho does not have any larger cities, and neither do WY or NH.  Idaho is completely isolated from large MSAs (just like MT, SD, ND, AK).  Both WY and NH have lots of out-of-state jobs, very large cities near-by (Denver, Salt Lake City, Boston) that offer sports, airports, dozens of museums, plays, and tons of other stuff.  Cheyenne and Southern NH are not really suburbs of Denver and Boston but they kind of both function like that in some regards.


Other reasons why NH and WY are connected.  

1. They both have lots of tourism.  I am not saying that Idaho does not, but I've never heard of or meet anyone in real life that has even been to Idaho for tourism.  Sure, maybe they are out there.  Tourism are very big industries in both NH and WY because so many parts of both states are some beautiful.  

2. Both have very low taxes.  Wyoming has no wage, interest, dividend taxes, or corporate taxes.  NH has no wage or general sales tax.  Idaho taxes you for everything.

3. LDS, while 25% of more of Idaho's population is Mormon, only around 7% of Wyoming's population is.  The main WY town that is controlled by LDS members is right next to Salt Lake City and has around 12,000 people.  3 of Idaho's largest 5 towns are controlled by Mormons.  Remember, even in Idaho's 3rd largest town, LDS members tried to shutdown a coffee shop because it sold coffee.

4. A key libertarian Republican.  NH has its governor and WY has its jr. US Senator.

5. Small districts.  Wyoming has the smallest state wide districts, and either the 2nd or 3rd smallest house and senate districts.  NH has the smallest house districts.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2003, 02:20:22 pm by FreedomRoad »
Logged

BobW

  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 453
  • I'm a llama!
Re:NH fans should look at *ID* 2nd
« Reply #5 on: June 24, 2003, 03:14:36 pm »

Hi Varrin,

It should be mentioned that Idaho has 2 House seats, New Hampshire also has 2.

Montana has 1 Rep just like Wyoming.

I mention this in passing because the FSP has something to do with politics.

Politics is difficult enough.  It's better to have less adversaries than more.

Plus, for those political activists, a factor that can assist, is to look at the location of the Federal Regional Center.  

BobW
Logged

freedomroad

  • Guest
Re:NH fans should not look at *ID* 2nd
« Reply #6 on: June 24, 2003, 03:16:44 pm »

Plus, for those political activists, a factor that can assist, is to look at the location of the Federal Regional Center.  

BobW

Bow, what is a Federal Regional Center what why are the locations important?  How do ID, NH, and WY compare for these?
« Last Edit: June 24, 2003, 03:17:05 pm by FreedomRoad »
Logged

Hank

  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 334
  • "The Men That Don't Fit In"
Re:NH fans should look at *ID* 2nd
« Reply #7 on: June 24, 2003, 03:45:53 pm »

Quote
Hank - with all due respect, you are pigeon-holing people too easily. Take a look at the size towns most NH-based NH supporters are in - Grafton, Somersworth, Keene.... NOT very large places... Rich Tomasso (Nashua) is the only NH-based one of us who is in a large city.
James, most people in the USA and most Libertarians, apparently, live in large urban and suburban areas. (we keep getting told by city people that there are liberty-lovers in cities too and they want out and the FSP is their ticket).

Since those are the demographic facts, then New Hampshire will be getting most if not almost all the large urban and suburban people (unless they go to Boise or Wilmington if ID or DE are chosen).

Because Manchester is your biggest city they may congregate there in order to be around lots and lots of people and take advantage of what city amenities Manchester may have.

Nashua may be their first choice because they will want to cuddle up as close to Boston as they can get.  Some of these people really do have a "fear of open spaces". "When they reach Dakota, Bridget sees the wide expanse of land lying before her and she feels a terrible dread. "She says "This land frightens me, Per, but it's where we are and we'll have to find some way to live with it.""

Another link with a similar story.
1000 miles from Nowhere.
Logged
There's A race of men that don't fit in,
A race that can't stay still;
So they break the hearts of kith and kin,
And they roam the world at will.
http://www.internal.org/view_poem.phtml?poemID=295

freedomroad

  • Guest
Re:NH fans should not look at *ID* 2nd, maybe 5th or so
« Reply #8 on: June 24, 2003, 03:51:33 pm »


James, most people in the USA and most Libertarians, apparently, live in large urban and suburban areas. (we keep getting told by city people that there are liberty-lovers in cities too and they want out and the FSP is their ticket).

Since those are the demographic facts, then New Hampshire will be getting most if not almost all the large urban and suburban people (unless they go to Boise or Wilmington if ID or DE are chosen).

Hank, I do not know why you keep bring up these little stories and much.  Do not get me wrong, I think they are funny and I enjoy reading them, but come on...

New Hampshire, Wyoming, and DE all have parts that a suburbs of very large MSAs but are still more free than the very large MSAs.

Logged

Hank

  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 334
  • "The Men That Don't Fit In"
Re:NH fans should look at *ID* 2nd
« Reply #9 on: June 24, 2003, 04:46:21 pm »

Quote
Hank, I do not know why you keep bring up these little stories and much.  Do not get me wrong, I think they are funny and I enjoy reading them, but come on...
FreedomRoad,
I'm trying to understand why some people seem to fear the "wide open spaces".  Could it be an underlying reason they are afraid to voice here?  You "think they are funny".  To someone with such a fear it is anything but funny.

I've the same sort of fear in cities with hoards of people and concrete canyons. Others have that same fear. We gravitate to "wide open spaces".  We could tell stories about being afraid in cities. Some may "think they are funny". To someone with such a fear it is anything but funny.

I started a thread to discuss this underlying decision factor and fear.
"1000 Miles from Nowhere" (some states may frighten some people)
« Last Edit: June 24, 2003, 04:48:38 pm by Hank »
Logged
There's A race of men that don't fit in,
A race that can't stay still;
So they break the hearts of kith and kin,
And they roam the world at will.
http://www.internal.org/view_poem.phtml?poemID=295

freedomroad

  • Guest
Re:NH fans should look at *ID* 2nd
« Reply #10 on: June 24, 2003, 04:54:40 pm »

Quote
Hank, I do not know why you keep bring up these little stories and much.  Do not get me wrong, I think they are funny and I enjoy reading them, but come on...
FreedomRoad,
I'm trying to understand why some people seem to fear the "wide open spaces".  Could it be an underlying reason they are afraid to voice here?  You "think they are funny".


I do not think ANYONE with any fear is funny.  I think that the articles (in general) and the way that you are using them are funny.  I would not dream of making fun of people because they have a fear (unless they are in my family).  I also have fears and so I can understand why some fears happen.
For a correction:
Logged

varrin

  • Former FSP President
  • FSP Participant
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 999
  • THE air male
    • Varrin's FSP Info Page
Re:NH fans should look at *ID* 2nd
« Reply #11 on: June 24, 2003, 06:21:34 pm »

Well, I see I stirred things up a bit ;-)  Glad to know you all are still stir-up-able...  These quotes are from various people:

Quote
In NH, virtually every porcupine who wants to be elected can be, if they're willing to move to the right place and take less competitive offices.  In western states, we'll have to work harder in more competitive races to change whole counties, a hurdle that our inexperienced members will find hard to overcome.

That's actually not true.  There are little offices all over the country.  Even here in the PRC, there are numerous offices that could be had by default or by an easy race.  The issue I think has more to do with access to the big offices.  We'll never get out of the federal income tax by electing libertarian librarians.

Quote
there is almost no argument that NH is the most libertarian Eastern state and Wyoming is the most libertarian Western states

I could make a case for Nevada, but that's kinda pointless I suppose.  Furthermore, this statement is somewhat misleading as it implies that none of the other western states are all that libertarian.  Idaho is not significantly less libertarian than Wyoming, if at all.  In some respects one is better than the other and vice versa.  And once we're done, *any* state we go to (on our list) will be *the* most libertarian in the nation...

Quote
It should be mentioned that Idaho has 2 House seats, New Hampshire also has 2.
Montana has 1 Rep just like Wyoming.

Hence Idaho has the potential to be twice as effective in the house as Wyoming.  This is really the main reason I supported the two-state strategy (4x U.S. Senator, 2x Governor, 2-4x house members depending on the state).  At least with ID we get 2 reps.

Quote
I am not saying that Idaho does not, but I've never heard of or meet anyone in real life that has even been to Idaho for tourism.  

Ummm... That's nice to know.  Are you planning to tax the tourists?  How about business travelers?  I got a buck (maybe 10) that says business travel to Idaho exceeds Wyoming by several times.  In fact, Boise alone has more air travel options (ya know, the way business travelers travel) than the entire state of Wyoming (reason #7???).

Quote
LDS, while 25% of more of Idaho's population is Mormon, only around 7% of Wyoming's population is.

Advantage:  ID  (exitus can take it from there)

Quote
Small districts.  

Which requires more *candidates*.  A lot of people can work on campaigns.  Not as many people are willing and able to run, much less are they electable.  In fact, most libertarians (small 'l') aren't electable at all for one reason or another (yes, I have first hand experience in this area).  On the other hand, ID has the caucus system, which offers the potential to have easier access to base votes (most likely 'R').  We could cultivate the few FSPers that are electable and actually get them in bigger offices easier.

Quote
Idaho does not have any larger cities, and neither do WY or NH.

Humm... That's an interesting statement.  I guess the obvious questions is "larger than what?".   Boise is larger than anything found in WY by nearly a factor of 10.  NH has a portion that is part of the Boston MSA which is WAY larger than anything in WY (or, in fact, in ID).  Overall, the city sizes and MSA sizes in NH are closer to ID than WY.  1/4 Million is good enough for me.  That's accessable in NH or ID (or DE or AK), not in WY.

Nuff for now...

V-  (stirrin hard ;-)

Logged
Departed Fresno, PRC (Peoples Republic of California): October 18, 2004
Arrived Keene, FS (Free State!): October 25, 2004!
To contact me, please use email, not PM here.

freedomroad

  • Guest
Re:NH fans should look at *ID* 2nd
« Reply #12 on: June 24, 2003, 07:36:55 pm »


I could make a case for Nevada, but that's kinda pointless I suppose.  Furthermore, this statement is somewhat misleading as it implies that none of the other western states are all that libertarian.  Idaho is not significantly less libertarian than Wyoming, if at all.  In some respects one is better than the other and vice versa.  And once we're done, *any* state we go to (on our list) will be *the* most libertarian in the nation...

There is little arguement about NH because it is the only state in the Eastern 1/2 of America with very much freedom left.  On the other hand, WY, AK, SD, ID, and NV all have high levels of freedom left.  WY has more freedom than any of these other states, though.  NV's freedom is quickly being taken away by people from Cali and Mexico.  This is what happened to Vermont when people from NY and MA started moving in.  The same thing happened to DE when people from VA, MD, NJ, and PA moved in.

Quote
Ummm... That's nice to know.  Are you planning to tax the tourists?  How about business travelers?  I got a buck (maybe 10) that says business travel to Idaho exceeds Wyoming by several times.  In fact, Boise alone has more air travel options (ya know, the way business travelers travel) than the entire state of Wyoming (reason #7???).

Boise has about the same amount of people as Wyoming but there are all in one MSA.  Denver, Salt Lake City, and Boston have great air service.

Quote
"Small districts."  

Which requires more *candidates*.  A lot of people can work on campaigns.  Not as many people are willing and able to run, much less are they electable.  In fact, most libertarians (small 'l') aren't electable at all for one reason or another (yes, I have first hand experience in this area).  

This is only true for NH.  Wyoming's districts are much smaller than IDs (ID is one of the worst states for his) and it takes less canidates in WY.  This is because the population is so small in WY and so large in ID.

From the State Legislature Report at http://www.freestateproject.com/statelegs.htm

House district size
Wyoming - 8,317
Idaho - 38,314

Senate district size
Wyoming - 16,634
Idaho - 38,314

Gov, Sec. of state, other state wide offices, 2 Senators district size
Wyoming - 500,000
Idaho - 1,350,000

Which would you rather run in?

Quote
Humm... That's an interesting statement.  I guess the obvious questions is "larger than what?".   Boise is larger than anything found in WY by nearly a factor of 10.  NH has a portion that is part of the Boston MSA which is WAY larger than anything in WY (or, in fact, in ID).  Overall, the city sizes and MSA sizes in NH are closer to ID than WY.  

There are no major MSAs in any of the states.  Only 3 states have any major MSAs near them, DE, NH, and WY.  The Denver MSA is 5 to 6 times the size of either the Boise, ID MSA and the Spokane, WA MSA.  Even Salt Lake City is twice the size of Boise.

Logged

jenlee

  • FSP Participant
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 198
  • Freedom Lover
Re:NH fans should look at *ID* 2nd
« Reply #13 on: June 24, 2003, 07:47:16 pm »

Quote
It's like they are describing Death Valley or Arctic tundra)

The arctic tundra is teeming with life. Just not the kind of life 99.99.99% of the people from the lower 48 knows/appreciates or cares about. The arctic tundra even has people living on it.
Logged
Choices. One, plenty of room to expand. Two, freeze em and stack em like cords of wood, thaw em out to vote and then refreeze em. Choices.

Robert H.

  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1361
  • Jeffersonian
    • Devolution USA
Re:NH fans should look at *ID* 2nd
« Reply #14 on: June 24, 2003, 11:51:29 pm »

Quote
In NH, virtually every porcupine who wants to be elected can be, if they're willing to move to the right place and take less competitive offices.  In western states, we'll have to work harder in more competitive races to change whole counties, a hurdle that our inexperienced members will find hard to overcome.

That's actually not true.  There are little offices all over the country.  Even here in the PRC, there are numerous offices that could be had by default or by an easy race.  The issue I think has more to do with access to the big offices.  We'll never get out of the federal income tax by electing libertarian librarians.

Wyoming's House and Senate districts are all quite small (New Hampshire actually has the largest Senate districts), so I don't see that we'd have any more of a particularly difficult time fielding candidates there.  Wyoming's legislature is also quite small (90 total members in both House and Senate, as opposed to over 400 in the New Hampshire House alone), thus we'd have a much more realistic chance for building the legislative majority we would need to implement our agenda.  Also, Wyoming's term limits law will go into effect in 2004, making it easier for our candidates to compete for seats in the legislature.  New Hampshire has no term limits.  

New Hampshire's legislative pay will also be of some consideration for us.  House members make only $100/year, and we'd have to find a couple hundred libertarians who could afford to work at that wage in order to build a legislative majority in New Hampshire.  This may be especially hard to swallow for those who are voting for New Hampshire because of access to higher paying jobs.

Finding enough activists willing to work for scant pay in order to build a legislative majority in a state with no term limits and a huge legislature is going to be a real challenge.  And legislative control will be imperative there because the state also lacks the intiative and referendum and county governments are all but irrelevant.  

Quote
Quote
It should be mentioned that Idaho has 2 House seats, New Hampshire also has 2.
Montana has 1 Rep just like Wyoming.

Hence Idaho has the potential to be twice as effective in the house as Wyoming.  This is really the main reason I supported the two-state strategy (4x U.S. Senator, 2x Governor, 2-4x house members depending on the state).  At least with ID we get 2 reps.

The problem there is that you'd get two reps in a 435 member US House of Representatives.  What kind of power would we realistically gain there with one more rep?  The Senate offers us a much better means of leverage given how close Senate votes can be between the two parties, and representation there is equal among the states.

I don't see any advantage to taking on Idaho's much larger population just for the chance to get one more representative when that person wouldn't make much difference in the US House anyway.  Besides, we're not guaranteed to get that additional rep either.  There are two major parties to contend with for that seat.   ;)
Pages: [1] 2 3 4   Go Up