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Author Topic: Making oneself disappear: NH Vrs. WY  (Read 7949 times)

vermass

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Making oneself disappear: NH Vrs. WY
« on: May 07, 2003, 11:38:29 am »

  Here's a question for both NH and WY advocates: Which state do you think it's easier to "disappear" in, NH or WY, and why? As I've stated before I'm a licensed proffesional so I'm not disappearing anywhere but I can think of many reasons one would want to.
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JT

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Re:Making oneself disappear: NH Vrs. WY
« Reply #1 on: May 07, 2003, 05:46:04 pm »

I would think NH because it has more people, therefore you would have a greater chance of finding someone who could help you hide.  If you disappear you would probably still need some form of employment (unless you are a thief, in which case you wouldn't be welcome in the FS), and with more people you shouldn't have a very difficult time finding someone who can hire you "off the books".  
If you're well off financially, it shouldn't be a problem at all: Buy an RV and live in it, or get a house and put it in someone else's name, etc...

But don't we need people who are activists?  An activist would be a registered voter, hand out literature, and would be at all sorts of public events, thereby making it difficult to "dissapear".
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freedomroad

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Re:Making oneself disappear: NH Vrs. WY
« Reply #2 on: June 19, 2003, 01:48:10 pm »

This might be a useful question.  

First though, is it good for FSP to try to disappear?  Some people might think it is a bad think, but if only a few of us do it, it is not a bad thing.

They could still:
Write reports
do internet research
write letters to the editor
give money to freedom
join pro-freedom groups
teach other how to use guns and hunt and fish
teach oters to be independent
set a positive examples for others to follow if they want

So, someone could try to disappear and still do a great deal of things to help make a Free State.  So it is not against the FSP guidelines to try to disappear.

Now to the question, which state is best, WY or NH?
Well, almost everyone reading this is telling themself WY, right now.  We might have different reasons but the question seems to answer itself.

Here are some possible reasons:
1. Wyoming is larger
2. Wyoming has less people
3. Wyoming has smaller towns
4. Wyoming has a 'live and let love' culture and many people actually move there because of this
5. Wyoming has more mountains and valleys
6. Wyoming has more independent minded people
7. The people in WY are known thoughout the world as being very friendly, while the people of the Northeast are known as some of the least friendly, at least where I grow up (Maine is a ringing example of this, so is MA where people will stop at nothing to control everything that anyone in the entire state does)
8. Wyoming has no income taxes while NH taxes dividens, interest, and corporate income
9. Wyoming has larger lot properties and 100s of very large ranches where someone can live without anyone except the owner knowing there are there.  
10. People actually move to Wyoming to be left alone by the government.
11.There are lots of strongly anti-federal government LDS members is the small southwest part of Wyoming.


« Last Edit: June 19, 2003, 11:43:44 pm by FreedomRoad »
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Rearden

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Re:Making oneself disappear: NH Vrs. WY
« Reply #3 on: June 19, 2003, 05:11:23 pm »


3. Wyoming has smaller towns

Hart's Location is NH's smallest town, with 27 people at 1.9 persons per square mile.  Does Wyming have a smaller town than that?  Dozens of other towns have less than 500 people, at varying densities.  

Besides, as the above poster pointed out, in a small town everybody knows everybody else.  Cities are much more anonymous.

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4. Wyoming has a 'live and let love' culture and many people actually move there because of this

NH has the same advantage.

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5. Wyoming has more mountains and valleys

If you mean linear miles, yes.  But NH also has plenty of desolate mountainous terrain.

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6. Wyoming has more independ minded people  

I think this is absolutely untrue, and I ask you to post some certifiable fact to back it up.  On the flip side, NH is one of only two candidate states to send more money to DC than it gets back.  WY is much more dependent on these payments.  

I wonder how the farmers in WY would react if we asked them to give up their huge farm subsidies?  Or the overall population their highway subsidies.  NH doesn't take many of those highway subsidies, and still has no helmet law or seatbelt law because of it.

You state that WY residents are more independent; the facts I just posted say otherwise.  Please respond with similar facts, not anecdotes and "I can't see my neighbor's house" arguments.

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7. The people in WY are known thoughout the world as being very friendly, while the people of the Northeast are known as some of the least friendly, at least where I grow up (Maine is a ringing example of this, so is MA where people will stop at nothing to control everything that anyone in the entire state does)

A -- I, a definite newcomer to the New England scene, have not experienced any unfriendliness from area residents.  Furthermore, I have never heard of this supposed regional unfriendliness.  

B -- Despite its regional proximity, NH is worlds away from MA, and slightly less so ME, in the political sense.  The governor of NH is rolling out the red carpet for us in eight days, while the LP candidate for governor of WY said that he thinks we should choose another state.  Remember that, Keith?  "Wyoming isn't as independent as they think it is," he said.  Should I go back and dig out that thread?

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8. Wyoming has no income taxes while NH taxes dividens, interest, and corporate income

Now, now, lets say all the facts, shall we?  NH has a much lower tax burden, and has a smaller government, than Wyoming.  It has no general income tax, and no sales tax, and only taxes interest income over (I believe) $5,000.  How many porcupines make over $5,000 in interest per year?  I doubt there's even one.  I'm not excusing the tax -- it should go, without a doubt, but it is innocuous compared to WY's heavier tax burden.

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10. People actually move to Wyoming to be left alone by the government.

That's a shame, because the government will never leave you alone wherever you go.  We should not go somewhere to hide, we should be working to reform the system in the state most conducive to that.  People who want to disappear into the woods will make lousy activists, anyway.  If you want to pull a Kaczinski, by all means move to Wyoming.  If you want to work to get libertarians in office, and make the free-est state in American THE Free State, come to New Hampshire.  

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11.There are lots of strongly anti-federal government LDS members is the small southwest part of Wyoming.

I seem to remember some serious debate whether or not a large LDS population is in our favor.  Am I correct that many Mormon communities enact seriously moralistic laws, such as outlawing dancing and liquor on Sundays?  I recall reading a long article about how difficult it was for Salt Lake City to hold the Olympics because the visitors were bored to death, since all the fun things were outlawed.  



« Last Edit: June 19, 2003, 05:12:23 pm by Keith Murphy »
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Hank

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Re:Making oneself disappear: NH Vrs. WY
« Reply #4 on: June 19, 2003, 06:02:21 pm »

We keep playing the game.

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Hart's Location is NH's smallest town, with 27 people at 1.9 persons per square mile.  Does Wyoming have a smaller town than that?
Do you count the lone ranch house in the middle of 640 acres or the lone cabin up in the mountains?

Smallest Wyoming town in the census was Van Tassell with 18.
It even has a web page about it.
http://www.ghosttowns.com/states/wy/vantassell.html
It's in Niobrara county.
Zack, you could be mayor and police chief and judge!  ;)
(oops, you'd hafta be the county judge. You can do that too!. See below)

Smallest Wyoming county is Niobrara with 2,407. Beat that!
New Hampshire's Coos county has 20 people per square mile.
Wyoming's Niobrara county has 1 (that's "one") person per square mile.
Even Albany county only has 7 people per square mile.
Cuz it's got lots of mountains and forests to hide in. ;D

Yes, hide. From meddling neighbors which some states have too many of because they have too many people in too small an area.  Those neighbors complain to the local JP or sheriff or busybodies about what some other people do on their property. Some of us need room to breath, make noise, shoot rifles, cut wood, and generally do other stuff out of earshot (don't want to bother 'em) of the neighbors down the lane.

Facts?

You say NH has a smaller government?
Wrong.
North Dakota, South Dakota, Wyoming and Vermont all have smaller budgets.  Maybe they have smaller governments too.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2003, 07:02:47 pm by Hank »
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robmayn

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Re:Making oneself disappear: NH Vrs. WY
« Reply #5 on: June 19, 2003, 10:28:52 pm »

You say NH has a smaller government?
Wrong.
North Dakota, South Dakota, Wyoming and Vermont all have smaller budgets.  Maybe they have smaller governments too.
This is only true in absolute terms, but as a percentage of GSP, New Hampshire has a much smaller government burden than any of the above mentioned states.  

I say this with some sadness because I am a fourth generation Vermonter who is quite passionate about my home state.  Still, objectivity forces me to admit that most of Vermont's liberty activists have looked to New Hampshire
as a possible refuge from statism for a long time now.  
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Zxcv

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Re:Making oneself disappear: NH Vrs. WY
« Reply #6 on: June 19, 2003, 11:06:49 pm »

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If you mean linear miles, yes.  But NH also has plenty of desolate mountainous terrain.

Well, you can fit almost 11 New Hampshires into Wyoming, a state that has less than half New Hampshire's population. I think it's safe to say getting lost in Wyoming is easier than in New Hampshire.  :D

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I wonder how the farmers in WY would react if we asked them to give up their huge farm subsidies?  

Well, Wyoming's 1996-2001 farm subsidies of $197 million may appear huge compared to New Hampshire's $15 million, but they are both small potatoes compared to ND's $4419 million, SD's $3213 million, MT's $2293 million, and ID's $1105 million. And even DE managed $91 million, half of Wyoming's total. I don't think agriculture has quite the lock on Wyoming it has on those other states. Maybe "huge" is a poor choice of words? (Remember, two of those really huge subsidy states are leading contenders around here...)

http://www.ewg.org/farm/
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freedomroad

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Re:Making oneself disappear: NH Vrs. WY
« Reply #7 on: June 20, 2003, 12:29:41 am »


Hart's Location is NH's smallest town, with 27 people at 1.9 persons per square mile.  Does Wyming have a smaller town than that?  Dozens of other towns have less than 500 people, at varying densities.  

Yes, did you not read my post?  Wyoming has smaller towns than Wyoming.  Check out the census info or something.

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If you mean linear miles, yes.  But NH also has plenty of desolate mountainous terrain.

Linear miles, number of different ranges, more sq. miles above 3000ft (5000ft, 10000ft, 13000ft), or any other rational way you want to compare them.

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I wonder how the farmers in WY would react if we asked them to give up their huge farm subsidies?  

This is a good point.  Wyoming hardly gets any farm subsidies unlike its near-by states.  Actually, the recent Democratic candidate for Senate of Wyoming had the solution.  She said they should allow farms to grow hemp so that they would not need subsidies.  The Republicn Senator Michael E. said he has no opinion on the manner.  The Libertarian said they should allow the farmers to grow hemp.  That means that 2 out of Wyoming's 3 major parties supported hemp.

Here are the stats:
NH out of 3 elections
According to the page, Democrats in NH are fence sitters and Republicans are against Hemp
Senate =
Jeanne Shaheen D Anti Hemp
John Sununu R Anti Hemp
Aaron Rizzio Green Party Pro Hemp  

House 1=
Jeb Bradley R Fence Sitter
Martha Fuller Clark D Fence Sitter
Dan Belforti LP Pro Hemp

House 2=
Charles Bass R Anti Hemp
Katrina Swett D Fence Sitter

Why are those NH Republicans so controlling on this social issue?  That is like MA where both the Ds and the Rs want to ban smoking in bars and clubs.

Wyoming out of 2 elections
It looks like Wyoming's candidate are MUCH MORE hemp-friendly than those in NH
Senate=
Joyce Jansa Corcoran D Pro Hemp
Mike Enzi R Fence Sitter

House=
Ron Akin D Fence Sitter
Barbara Cubin R Fence Sitter
Lewis Stock LP Pro Hemp

http://www.votehemp.com/hempguide/guide.cfm

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B -- Despite its regional proximity, NH is worlds away from MA, and slightly less so ME, in the political sense.  The governor of NH is rolling out the red carpet for us in eight days, while the LP candidate for governor of WY said that he thinks we should choose another state.  Remember that, Keith?  "Wyoming isn't as independent as they think it is," he said.  Should I go back and dig out that thread?

Keith, in this case you may be mistaken.  The Wyoming governor was positive towards us and welcomed us.  It was MT and ID where the governors do not want us.

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It has no general (direct wage tax that the worker has to pay) income tax, and no sales tax, and only taxes interest income over (I believe) $5,000.

I do not see what this has to do with hiding.  Keith, what do sales tax have to do with hiding?  Do you know any survivalists?  Besides, even though your whole tax arguement is off-topic those that choose to hid rarely pay sales taxes.  However, income taxes, even on a state level, are used to track people, so they are useful to this discourse.

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That's a shame, because the government will never leave you alone wherever you go.  We should not go somewhere to hide, we should be working to reform the system in the state most conducive to that.  People who want to disappear into the woods will make lousy activists, anyway.  If you want to pull a Kaczinski, by all means move to Wyoming.  If you want to work to get libertarians in office, and make the free-est state in American THE Free State, come to New Hampshire.  

Do not worry, I am not trying to hide or anything.  The poster asked a question about hiding and I answered it.  Please read my answer.  It explains how people can hide and still be activists.

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I seem to remember some serious debate whether or not a large LDS population is in our favor.  Am I correct that many Mormon communities enact seriously moralistic laws, such as outlawing dancing and liquor on Sundays?  I recall reading a long article about how difficult it was for Salt Lake City to hold the Olympics because the visitors were bored to death, since all the fun things were outlawed.  

There was this arguement.  I never said they entire state had lots of LDS members.  Wyoming does not have a large LDS population so that is not even an issue.  I said a small part of Wyoming has lots of LDS members.  Some people claim that because LDS members are extremely independent and have to keep lots of food and water in storeage and other such independent things, that they are good at that type of stuff.

About the Olympics, many people traveled to Evanston, WY because of its much greater freedom and had a great time.  Even though over 1/2 of the people in the town were LDS members, the town is pretty free compared to anything in Utah.
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« Last Edit: June 20, 2003, 12:30:14 am by FreedomRoad »
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Kelton Baker

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Re:Making oneself disappear: NH Vrs. WY
« Reply #8 on: June 20, 2003, 12:52:06 am »

How far are you willing to go to hide and who are you hiding from?

Iraqi man ends 20 years in hiding

"After two decades in hiding, an Iraqi man has finally emerged back into the real world - squinting at the unaccustomed light..."

"Mr Amir escaped - not into a far-off town or neighbouring country, but into a space sandwiched between two walls in his parents' home."





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I wonder how the farmers in WY would react if we asked them to give up their huge farm subsidies?  

Well, Wyoming's 1996-2001 farm subsidies of $197 million may appear huge compared to New Hampshire's $15 million, but they are both small potatoes compared to ND's $4419 million, SD's $3213 million, MT's $2293 million, and ID's $1105 million. And even DE managed $91 million, half of Wyoming's total. I don't think agriculture has quite the lock on Wyoming it has on those other states. Maybe "huge" is a poor choice of words? (Remember, two of those really huge subsidy states are leading contenders around here...)



I think that much of this comes down to a question of whether a state has much farming or not.  I am an agricultural reporter here in  Central California, the most productive agricultural spot in the nation; I think many farmers may be somewhat supportive of removing subsidies as I interview farmers regularly and ask them such questions.  Most farmers despise having to deal with the Federal government, but are almost forced to take subsidies in order to stay competitive and keep their loans afloat.

Idaho ranks about #12 in the nation for the amount of different agricultural products raised.  I think you will see that Idaho also costs far less taxpayer money for what it produces than does the Dakotas and Montana because of the heavily ingrained (pun intended) commodities such as grains that are produced there.  Idaho produces many items which have been kept off the price support rosters for decades, (though potatoes are going to soon be a part of the plan under that last Farm Bill that Bush signed).

Wyoming has less share of subsidies because there is less land put to crop use....

The same goes for that grand northeastern state with acidic, rocky soil and short growing seasons, only good for growing New Hemp for rope.




I seem to remember some serious debate whether or not a large LDS population is in our favor.  Am I correct that many Mormon communities enact seriously moralistic laws, such as outlawing dancing and liquor on Sundays?  I recall reading a long article about how difficult it was for Salt Lake City to hold the Olympics because the visitors were bored to death, since all the fun things were outlawed.  


Sigh...  :-\

As a faithful Latter-Day Saint myself, I am optimistic yet still somewhat undecided about my fellow Mormons coming around to becoming libertarian in the future, but I don't see too many groups out there right now that stand-out significantly better, overall, anyways.

After Native American Indians, Mormons have perhaps the longest history of abuse by the federal government literally filling  volumes.  I don't think there are many that translate that into a hatred of the federales like FreedomRoad asserts, except maybe a few of the "splinter" groups that still practice polygamy.  But freedom weighing-in on the consciousness of this group is great, best stated in this quote:
"The propensity of government to interfere in matters of conscience and impose its collective view on minorities ought to be so rooted in LDS consciousness "that we would be the greatest civil libertarians that ever lived". (Monroe G. McKay , Chief Justice, US 10th Circuit Court of Appeals, LDS Church News,
10/19/91.)

While standing against some things has become a trademark, I think it important to note a few high political points about the LDS church:
--Members are taught not to accept government welfare, at all.
--The Church has stated that it will refuse all money from Bush's 'Faith-Based Inititives'
--Utah cast the deciding vote repealing Prohibition, and a few Church leaders in Utah actually stated being in favor of doing so.
--Public education was actually forced upon the Church membership by the Federal Government way back in the early days of Utah.  Recent pronouncements by the Church have urged members to explore alternatives to public education whenever possible.

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« Last Edit: June 24, 2003, 08:21:59 pm by exitus... »
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Karl

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Re:Making oneself disappear: NH Vrs. WY
« Reply #9 on: July 03, 2003, 12:25:47 am »

It seems only the Wyoming advocates are asking the hard questions and trying to answer the on-topic issues here.

Sorry, Joe, but the thread is nothing but chatter.

But here are some hard questions, all rhetorical:

Exactly what does "disappear" mean?  Does it mean the ability to live in the wilderness, away from people, without anyone's knowledge, such as a survivalist might?  Or does it just mean "off the government books?"

Does the hidden person plan to live on his own property, which is registered with the county, rent from another person, or trespass on others' property?  Or will he live in an RV and roam between RV parks?

If he lives in an RV, what will he do about registration?

Zcxv's list of possible political activities includes things like internet access, income in which to donate to pro-freedom causes, and lots of interaction with neighbors.  How exactly can one have and do these things and still remain hidden?

Exactly why is this an relevant question for state selection?  Will our ability to hide in the mountains do much to move the state in the direction of freedom?

How many members of the Free State Project do you think would gain from this arrangement?

If there are any, why have they have announced themselves by joining the Free State Project, thus risking having to move from whatever outback the currently live?  Why wouldn't they have already disappeared in Wyoming, Montana or elsewhere?
« Last Edit: July 03, 2003, 12:32:34 am by Karl »
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jenlee

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Re:Making oneself disappear: NH Vrs. WY
« Reply #10 on: July 03, 2003, 01:15:51 am »

Sorry but Alaska would be the easiest state to disappear in  ;D The other two don't hold a candle to Alaska and the ability to be able to disappear.

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cbisquit

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Re:Making oneself disappear: NH Vrs. WY
« Reply #11 on: July 03, 2003, 01:35:14 am »

Sorry but Alaska would be the easiest state to disappear in  ;D The other two don't hold a candle to Alaska and the ability to be able to disappear.



Just wear white and *poof* you're gone? j/k
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jenlee

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Re:Making oneself disappear: NH Vrs. WY
« Reply #12 on: July 03, 2003, 01:46:20 am »

~giggles~ Almost. Alaska is 1 1/2 the size of texas. IF we was as flat as Texas, we would be 5 to 6 times the size  ;D

Just go up in the mountains. And wearing white in the winter would be a help  ;)

Serously, go into the mountains and stay there. Live by hunting, have someone to bring you certain things you can't live without or learn to live without them. And no way the feds could ever search every inch of Alaska. Could even head over to the Yukon and on up into the NWT.

Sorry but Alaska would be the easiest state to disappear in  ;D The other two don't hold a candle to Alaska and the ability to be able to disappear.



Just wear white and *poof* you're gone? j/k
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Choices. One, plenty of room to expand. Two, freeze em and stack em like cords of wood, thaw em out to vote and then refreeze em. Choices.
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