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Author Topic: 2002 WY LP Candidate for Gov: Wyoming not the place, not independent enough  (Read 16318 times)

Rearden

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You know, it didn't really bother me when the governors of Idaho and Montana were quoted in the recent AP article as asking us not to choose their states.  After all, they are socialists, and our stated goal would be to toss them out of their respective mansions.

But when the 2002 Libertarian candidate for governor says that his state of Wyoming is the wrong choice for us, I have to believe him.   :o

From  http://www.charlotte.com/mld/observer/news/local/4277099.htm

Libertarian candidate for governor Dave Dawson supports the Free State Project. He has advocated less government at every turn on the campaign trail, pushing for repeal of federal income taxes and handing education, health care and other government programs to the private sector.

"It's a great idea," he said of the Free State Project. "The problem is getting Libertarians to do something all together is a lot like herding cats."

Dawson said he would love to see the plan succeed but doesn't think Wyoming is the place. The state is not as independently minded as everyone thinks, he said.




By way of comparison, New Hampshire's enormously popular Governor Craig Benson will be meeting with FSP members in his office June 27th.  Already busy paring down the nation's smallest state government, his unfavorable rating is a paltry 6%.  The LPNH thinks so much of him they are seriously considering cross-nominating the man.

How about that, fellow members?  We can move into a state where we already have the executive branch locked up!
« Last Edit: April 30, 2003, 09:59:19 am by Keith Murphy »
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Dalamar49

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Re:2002 WY LP Candidate for Gov: "Don't Come Here!!"
« Reply #1 on: April 28, 2003, 03:56:35 pm »

That story is a tad old, but you have a point: if a Wyoming resident and an LP candidate, who's already familiar with the political culture of Wyoming, says the project shouldn't go there....it an important factor....

Too bad we couldn't send some objective non-Wyoming supporters to Wyoming and ask around about their opinions about the project and the LP.

Jason feel like making a trip to Wyoming?
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StevenN

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Re:2002 WY LP Candidate for Gov: "Don't Come Here!!"
« Reply #2 on: April 28, 2003, 06:55:20 pm »

This is the first I've heard of this. It really makes me think. I would of course expect the current governor to say that "it wouldn't work here", because we'll be challenging the status quo. But Dave Dawson would have everything to gain from an infusion of libertarian activism, being the candidate in the highest state position. It sounds like he's very pro-FSP, and honestly thinks that it wouldn't work there. I think, despite WY being the best by the numbers, alot of people (myself included) thought that everyone in WY were closet libertarians. Maybe not.

Either way, it will be interesting to see how much reaction this gets compared to the nearly 100 posts on the Wyoming Rancher thread.
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Hank

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Re:2002 WY LP Candidate for Gov: "Don't Come Here!!"
« Reply #3 on: April 28, 2003, 07:46:18 pm »

The story IS a whole LOT old!!!
And the critic is a Libertarian!!!
What do they know about practical politics???
They wouldn't know a good political opportunity to WIN
if it ran up and hit 'em in the nose.

Here's your chance Zack!! ;D
« Last Edit: April 29, 2003, 10:03:31 am by Black Hills Hank »
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Rearden

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Re:2002 WY LP Candidate for Gov: "Don't Come Here!!"
« Reply #4 on: April 28, 2003, 10:03:15 pm »

The story IS a whole LOT old!!!

Well, I wouldn't call October 2002 -- six months -- to be "a whole LOT old!!!"  But that's just me.

Quote
And the critic is a Libertarian!!!
What do they know about practical politics???
They wouldn't know a good political opportunity to WIN
if it ran up and hit 'em in the nose.

I would agree that Libertarians typically don't have much experience in winning elections.  However, that doesn't mean that we should automatically do the opposite of what our LP friends on the ground say.  He's there.  I'm not.  To me, that means he has a better handle on the state's political culture than I, or you, or anyone else not there.  

And the guy did run a campaign for governor, and that means he certainly knows more about our political opportunity for success than a rancher.  Nothing against ranchers, you understand.  

But a politician knows as much about ranching as a rancher knows about politics.   ;D
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freedomroad

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Re:Why everyone should pay their taxes
« Reply #5 on: April 28, 2003, 10:29:53 pm »


Dawson said he would love to see the plan succeed but doesn't think Wyoming is the place. The state is not as independently minded as everyone thinks, he said.
3 important points:

1. Dave never said what you quote him as saying.

2. Keith, even after you try to quote Dave for something he did not say, you add more emphasis by adding exclamation points.

3. On top of that, Dave did say that the FSP would work in Wyoming.

I feel you are misrepresenting Dave and you are willfully trying to mislead the FSP membership with this thread.  

This is an old story, most of us have already seen it.  If I remember, is this the same person that refuses to pay his federal income taxes and talked about it during his whole bid for governor?  Correct me if I am wrong.  Sounds pretty cool, but way to out-there for the FSP.  I am going to pay my income taxes, we will be the first one locked up, if we do not pay.  Even if you do want to listen to what he said, that is fine.  Listen to everything he said.  I am sure he is not a bad guy.  He also said that the FSP would work in Wyoming.

Anyway, maybe people from Wyoming are not as independent as we think...  Maybe they are.   We need to keep in mind that Wyoming's group of U.S. Congress members is the most libertarian group of Congress members in the country.  If you did not know this, check with the Republican Liberty C. or Gun Owners of America or some other libertarian organization.  You cannot get more libertarian than Wyoming (well, at least until the FSP  picks a state). I do not know what that means to you, but to me, it indicates that Wyoming might have the most libertarian people in the country.  Either way, if we run as libertarians we will do great, because libertarians are winning most of Wyoming's major elections, already.

People from most of the states have said they wanted us and at the same time people from most of the states have said they do not want us.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2003, 04:17:35 am by FreedomRoad »
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Robert H.

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Re:2002 WY LP Candidate for Gov: "Don't Come Here!!"
« Reply #6 on: April 28, 2003, 11:55:49 pm »

Here's the article's section with regard to Dawson:  

"Libertarian candidate for governor Dave Dawson supports the Free State Project. He has advocated less government at every turn on the campaign trail, pushing for repeal of federal income taxes and handing education, health care and other government programs to the private sector.

"It's a great idea," he said of the Free State Project. "The problem is getting Libertarians to do something all together is a lot like herding cats."

Dawson said he would love to see the plan succeed but doesn't think Wyoming is the place. The state is not as independently minded as everyone thinks, he said.

Still, he said, "I think it's realistic. It's certainly not easy."


Dawson's statement that Wyoming "is not as independently minded as everyone thinks" could reflect his 2% showing at the polls (although this is about the norm for a libertarian candidate).  I could see how a candidate who isn't able to rally any more support than that could say that his state is not "independently minded."

However, as Keith mentioned, Dawson has apparently made some statements that cast his candidacy in a rather poor light.  One source I located quotes the Wyoming Enterprise as commenting:

"We're surprised Libertarian gubernatorial candidate Dave Dawson wastes his time and the public's with his ridiculous campaign... Dawson has this year sunk to the level of [another] constant, kooky candidate... Dawson, who all but brags about not paying income tax or filing IRS returns for more than 20 years, has zero credibility when it comes to public policy issues... He should be ashamed of himself and grateful he's not in prison. In some respects, Dawson reminds us of the Montana Freemen... [and] all they really wanted to do was issue their own currency to avoid paying income tax. Of course, no one wants to pay income tax or enjoys it. But virtually all adults do. Why? Because it's the law, and it's the foundation of our government and society."

http://www.co-freedom.com/2002/10/shorts11.html

No matter what your beliefs are regarding the income tax, if you're going around saying that you don't file, don't expect to make it very far in any political medium.  Instead, you can expect the sort of "kooky" label that this article bestowed on Dawson, and will likely find that reflected in the minds of your constituents, most of whom pay income tax themselves.  It's one thing to come out in favor of abolishing it, but it's quite another to say that you don't currently pay it when it's the law.

If Dawson ran that sort of campaign, and was disappointed with his level of support at the polls, I can understand why he would say that Wyoming is not as "independently minded as everyone thinks."

But that's hardly indicative of Wyoming being a poor choice for those who intend to embark on a reasonable agenda for reform.  Note that the article also quotes the Wyoming federal attorney as saying:

"Of course they're free to move to this state or any other state," he said. "And if they want to try to change state law, they're free to do that. ... But they will be subject to the same federal laws as everyone else."
« Last Edit: April 29, 2003, 03:01:06 am by RobertH »
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jgmaynard

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Re:2002 WY LP Candidate for Gov: "Don't Come Here!!"
« Reply #7 on: April 29, 2003, 08:02:41 am »

Hey Freedom....

Did you say that most elected Libertarians in the country are in Wy? I can't find a listing of elected Libs on your state page, and national only lists Kate Sherrod Saratoga Town Council. Now national is always behind the times, but how many do you have in office now? We're at 28 currently in NH....

JM
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Re:2002 WY LP Candidate for Gov: "Don't Come Here!!"
« Reply #8 on: April 29, 2003, 09:29:48 am »

I went to the Wyoming LP site to find Dawson's email, so I could ask him to comment on this thread, but the link was broken.

Dawson is an individual. He may know more about politics than a rancher (then again, maybe not!). But he did run a campaign that didn't go too far, and probably got a lot of people pissed at him for (apparently?) throwing the governorship to a Democrat. So it's understandable he'd have a sour opinion of his fellow citizens in this respect.

It would be pretty foolish to base our decision on the comments of individuals here or there. I think this thread is "much ado about nothing".

Keith M., I have to question the title of this thread. As far as I can tell, Dawson did not actually say, "Don't come here!"  You are misquoting him. I suggest you remove the quotation marks, at least.
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Hank

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Re:2002 WY LP Candidate for Gov: "Don't Come Here!!"
« Reply #9 on: April 29, 2003, 10:31:58 am »

Quote
I would agree that Libertarians typically don't have much experience in winning elections.  However, that doesn't mean that we should automatically do the opposite of what our LP friends on the ground say.
Friends ???
The LP most likely will run candidates against the Porcupines.
That is unless we take over the state LP.
THAT is why somebody like Dawson doesn't want us there.
We would spoil their party by winning office and shoveling
instead of kibitzing.
Quote
And the guy did run a campaign for governor, and that means he certainly knows more about our political opportunity for success than a rancher.  Nothing against ranchers, you understand. 
But a politician knows as much about ranching as a rancher knows about politics.   ;D
Don't bet your politics on LP political sageness.  Put more stock in experienced rustlers/wrestlers/rasslers of sagebrush and rattlesnake (all kinds) and shovelers of stuff that accumulates from the end opposite of basic horse sense.
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George Reich

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Re:2002 WY LP Candidate for Gov: "Don't Come Here!!"
« Reply #10 on: April 29, 2003, 10:54:52 am »

It would be pretty foolish to base our decision on the comments of individuals here or there.

Agreed. But what we are seeing here is a pattern: Negative comments from residents, government officials, and the press in the western states as opposed to positive comments coming out of New Hampshire from all three.
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freedomroad

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Re:2002 WY LP Candidate for Gov: "Don't Come Here!!"
« Reply #11 on: April 29, 2003, 11:24:52 am »

Hey Freedom....

Did you say that most elected Libertarians in the country are in Wy? I can't find a listing of elected Libs on your state page, and national only lists Kate Sherrod Saratoga Town Council. Now national is always behind the times, but how many do you have in office now? We're at 28 currently in NH....

JM

Thank you.  I edited my previous post, see above.  I was only talking about the libertarianess of the elected officals in the state.  By all measures as a whole, Wyoming's major elected officals are more libertarian than any other states (all 49 other states).  

I was not talking about elected LP members or anything.  Really, I have very little care about the elected LP members of each state.  Since no state has anyone in even 1 important position, as far as I am considered, they are all a wash.  

Keep in mind, when I say libertarian I am talking about people that want smaller government and I am not talking about anything related to the LP.  People that understand libertarianism have been around much longer than the LP and will be around long after the LP.

I've actually seen quite a few socialist and statists run as LP members.  The LP tends to attract many oddballs.  I even remember one guy in NH that seemed to think it was OK to shoot cops.  At one time, as I recall, he was an elected LP member and in the NH House.  As I recall, y'all kicked him out and he because just a Republican (before that he was both a LP and a RP member).  

Despite all of this, I am still a LP due paying member.  People like Harry Browne have done a lot of good for the LP, athough he is too out-there, also.  Working outside the LP is where alomst all liberty-friendly progress is made, however.
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Hank

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Re:2002 WY LP Candidate for Gov: "Don't Come Here!!"
« Reply #12 on: April 29, 2003, 11:25:35 am »

It would be pretty foolish to base our decision on the comments of individuals here or there.

Agreed. But what we are seeing here is a pattern: Negative comments from residents, government officials, and the press in the western states as opposed to positive comments coming out of New Hampshire from all three.
You forgot the positive Comments from WyoRancher (until he assumed we all were like Zack).  :(
Notice the negative press and comments are from liberal Idaho and Montana. At least they're more Californicated liberal than Wyoming and the Dakotas which you have not heard from.
Consider also the reputation of Libertarians of being all talk.
The FSP most likely is viewed the same for being associated with Libertarians from way back when the FSP site declared itself a "movement of 20,000 libertarian activists". Practical westerners, like The FREEPERS most likely dismiss the FSP as more hot air and BS not worth wasting breath or ink about.
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Rearden

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Re:2002 WY LP Candidate for Gov: "Don't Come Here!!"
« Reply #13 on: April 29, 2003, 01:06:39 pm »

I went to the Wyoming LP site to find Dawson's email, so I could ask him to comment on this thread, but the link was broken.

I would also like Dawson's thoughts on this, so he could expand his earlier statement and we could decide for ourselves how much weight to place in his statements.

Quote
Dawson is an individual. He may know more about politics than a rancher (then again, maybe not!). But he did run a campaign that didn't go too far, and probably got a lot of people pissed at him for (apparently?) throwing the governorship to a Democrat. So it's understandable he'd have a sour opinion of his fellow citizens in this respect.

I'm pretty sure that he knows more about politics than a rancher, although LP members in general aren't very politically saavy.  His campaign didn't go too far, to be sure, but he did get 2%, which seems to be the norm for LP candidates in general.  

Quote
It would be pretty foolish to base our decision on the comments of individuals here or there. I think this thread is "much ado about nothing".

In my opinion we have to each decide for ourselves how much weight to give each statement.  Although he is one individual, he is an individual that spent months touring the state, talking to thousands of constituents.  I'd think he has a pretty good handle on how Wyomingites think.  Also, this is not the first time that people from the state have expressed negative reaction to the project.  Even if you don't put much weight in Dawson's comments as an individual, as opinions pile up a consensus seems to emerge, at least for me.  Again, we must each decide this tipping point for ourselves.  For myself, I have seen newspapers write editorials against us, I have seen residents warning us to stay away, I have read posts threatening us with death upon our appearance, and now I read about a candidate for statewide office saying that his state is not what many think it is.

I notice a trend here -- they are all in the west.  I have seen little evidence that we would be welcome there, and much to the contrary.  In comparison, we have a meeting with the governor of New Hampshire set up, and have yet to read a single letter to the editor from someone in New Hampshire saying that we are not welcome there.  No editorials.  No death threats.  None.  

We already have a difficult job in front of us, without making it harder.  Let's go where we are welcome.


Quote
Keith M., I have to question the title of this thread. As far as I can tell, Dawson did not actually say, "Don't come here!"  You are misquoting him. I suggest you remove the quotation marks, at least.

I would remove the quotation marks, to address your concern, if I knew how.  I wouldn't say I misquoted him, as my only intent was to fit his sentiment into the thread title.  I paraphrased what he said, and in that I would agree that the quotation marks shouldn't be there.  
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Rearden

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Re:2002 WY LP Candidate for Gov: "Don't Come Here!!"
« Reply #14 on: April 29, 2003, 01:21:54 pm »

Hey Freedom....

Did you say that most elected Libertarians in the country are in Wy? I can't find a listing of elected Libs on your state page, and national only lists Kate Sherrod Saratoga Town Council. Now national is always behind the times, but how many do you have in office now? We're at 28 currently in NH....

JM

Thank you.  I edited my previous post, see above.  I was only talking about the libertarianess of the elected officals in the state.  By all measures as a whole, Wyoming's major elected officals are more libertarian than any other states (all 49 other states).  

I was not talking about elected LP members or anything.  Really, I have very little care about the elected LP members of each state.  Since no state has anyone in even 1 important position, as far as I am considered, they are all a wash.  

Keep in mind, when I say libertarian I am talking about people that want smaller government and I am not talking about anything related to the LP.  People that understand libertarianism have been around much longer than the LP and will be around long after the LP.

I've actually seen quite a few socialist and statists run as LP members.  The LP tends to attract many oddballs.  I even remember one guy in NH that seemed to think it was OK to shoot cops.  At one time, as I recall, he was an elected LP member and in the NH House.  As I recall, y'all kicked him out and he because just a Republican (before that he was both a LP and a RP member).  

Despite all of this, I am still a LP due paying member.  People like Harry Browne have done a lot of good for the LP, athough he is too out-there, also.  Working outside the LP is where alomst all liberty-friendly progress is made, however.

Gee, Freedom, if my facts are accurate, New Hampshire has less government employees per capita than any other state, receives less in federal funding per capita than any other state (due to an unwillingness to bend to federal mandate), has the lowest taxes in the entire nation,....  My question is this -- how can you say that Wyoming is the "most libertarian state" in the nation?  You yourself say that small government is very libertarian -- by any measure NH has the smallest government in the nation!

As far as your thoughts on the LP, I'll be the first to admit that the party has been horribly inefficient and woefully unsuccessful as a whole at winning elections.  But it seems evident to me that many of us are LP party members, and we are likely to, for the most part, work to elect LP members to office.  I view the creation of a new party as unnecessary and inefficient, and think that we would be better off at working to reinvigorate the LP wherever we go.  

As my friend Jim points out above though, NH's LP has had some success, however.  There are some bright spots in what is otherwise a dark sky of mediocrity.
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