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Author Topic: More NH, ID, WY debate  (Read 27233 times)

LibertyLover

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Re:More NH, ID, WY debate
« Reply #75 on: June 02, 2003, 01:35:23 pm »

I just discovered and joined the FSP a few days ago, and I'm excited about the opportunity to make my efforts toward promoting freedom more effective by joining other freedom lovers who want to do something that might actually work, rather than just talking about how horrible things are now.

I am willing to move anywhere that several thousand freedom activists believe can be made more free, even Alaska or Delaware, my two least favorites. I've been reading the research on these boards almost nonstop since Friday, and I am convinced that Wyoming is far and away the best choice. Strangely enough, the reason I feel so strongly about it now is because my initial reaction to Wyoming was very negative. With its low population and self-reliant culture, Wyoming seems like a no-brainer, but who wants to live there? Maybe only people who are really dedicated to freedom.  :D

Now that I know more about Wyoming from all this reading, I think that even a city girl like me could come to love it. The weather isn't as bad as I thought, there are more metropolitan areas nearby than I realized, and I'll have a lot of new friends who share my beliefs about individual liberty and personal responsibility. Best of all, it seems that people who want to tell other people how to live aren't likely to want to live there.

My goal is to do as much as I can in my lifetime to move my country toward liberty, but I don't think I can accomplish anything by trying to force my beliefs on other people. The FSP can't "take over" a state and force people to be free. What we CAN do is get enough people together to spread the message of freedom to a relatively small population that is already predisposed to listen. If we can find enough people who can be convinced that freedom "works," we can make voting for liberty worthwhile and make enough positive changes that will prove to even more people that freedom works. The more we prove that freedom-based solutions work better than government-imposed solutions, the more freedom will spread.

That is my vision and, unless I have misinterpreted what I have read here, that is the vision of the majority of FSP members. The most important question now is which state will give us the best chance of turning that vision into reality. There is no guarantee of success in any state or with any particular number of activists, so we each have to individually use our best judgement about which state presents the best opportunity, without worrying about whether we can convince the other members to vote for that state.

For myself, if Wyoming is selected, I won't wait for 20,000 members, because I believe I can do a lot more to accomplish my goals in Wyoming with a few thousand fellow freedom lovers than I can in California. If another state is selected, I will wait until there are enough members to make me feel that my move is worthwhile, however many that turns out to be.
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freedomroad

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Re:More NH, ID, WY debate
« Reply #76 on: June 02, 2003, 01:50:07 pm »

I just discovered and joined the FSP a few days ago, and I'm excited about the opportunity to make my efforts toward promoting freedom more effective by joining other freedom lovers who want to do something that might actually work, rather than just talking about how horrible things are now.

Joyce, thank you joining.  Welcome to the FSP Forum.

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I am willing to move anywhere that several thousand freedom activists believe can be made more free, even Alaska or Delaware, my two least favorites...Wyoming seems like a no-brainer, but who wants to live there? Maybe only people who are really dedicated to freedom.  :D

You are very dedicated and that is wonderful.  In all fairness, maybe you should read all of the state reports, besides, you have to pick states number 2 to 10, also.  I agree, though, Wyoming seems to be, by far, the best state for the FSP's goals.
http://freestateproject.org/statereports.htm
Quote

My goal is to do as much as I can in my lifetime to move my country toward liberty...That is my vision and, unless I have misinterpreted what I have read here, that is the vision of the majority of FSP members.

My goals are very similar to yours, and I agree that many other people have similar goals.

Quote
For myself, if Wyoming is selected, I won't wait for 20,000 members, because I believe I can do a lot more to accomplish my goals in Wyoming with a few thousand fellow freedom lovers than I can in California. If another state is selected, I will wait until there are enough members to make me feel that my move is worthwhile, however many that turns out to be.


I agree with you 100%.  I will not be able to move early because of money, college, and the Army, however.  It only seems to make sense to move early if Wyoming or Alaska is selected.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2003, 02:08:21 pm by FreedomRoad »
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cathleeninsc

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Re:More NH, ID, WY debate
« Reply #77 on: June 02, 2003, 02:02:02 pm »

Welcome Joyce,
It is a pretty exciting prospect, huh? I agree on Wyoming and it would be a new experience for me as well. Seems to me that as close to a clean slate as possible is best and one that is as static as possible. Aren't moving targets harder to hit?

And if some of us differ on how and what or even where, well, then that is just a test of libertarians working together, which most of us need to practice.

Cathleen in SC

« Last Edit: June 02, 2003, 02:03:11 pm by cathleeninsc »
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jgmaynard

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Re:More NH, ID, WY debate
« Reply #78 on: June 02, 2003, 03:36:39 pm »

Hi Cathleen/Joyce:

Nice to hear from you both...... Have you taken a look at  http://www.lpnh.org/why-nh.htm ?

I think you will be pleasantly suprised - no general sales OR income taxes, a great job market, lowest crime in the nation (FBI), and lots more!

Also take a look around the Granite State LIVE at http://www.freestatenhlive.com

JM
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LibertyLover

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Re:More NH, ID, WY debate
« Reply #79 on: June 02, 2003, 08:12:21 pm »

Hi Cathleen/Joyce:

Nice to hear from you both...... Have you taken a look at  http://www.lpnh.org/why-nh.htm ?

Thanks, NH is my second choice, with ID third, but I don't think anything can beat WY's small number of voters in my judgement about the most promising state. I also think being landlocked and surrounded by relatively liberty-oriented states is a plus for WY.

However, if I am over-ruled, I would be very happy to move to NH.
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Robert H.

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Re:More NH, ID, WY debate
« Reply #80 on: June 03, 2003, 01:33:51 am »

Welcome, Joyce!   :)

I agree that Wyoming presents us with an unbeatable combination of benefits that will foster the creation of a free state in a realistic amount of time.  Wyoming's population is already such an individualistic lot, and the letters that I read in their newspapers are consistently of a higher libertarian nature than those I've read elsewhere.

Wyoming also gives us the advantage of not being surrounding by some of the most socialistic states in the country, thus presenting us with a chance to build a regional solidarity that could come in very handy in dealing with Washington.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2003, 01:34:30 am by RobertH »
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Hank

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Re:More NH, ID, WY debate
« Reply #81 on: August 21, 2003, 02:09:51 pm »

Quote
I'm curious. What if there were a state out there that magically had no people, and therefore no jobs. Would you still be telling us to go to New Hampshire? Wouldn't it make more sense to move to that empty state even though it was jobless?

You mean building a minarchist state from the ground up without all the rules, regulation, laws, taxes, permits, licenses, bureacracies, departments, legislatures, and all the rest?  You mean not having to dismantle most of these big government programs? You mean not having to  dig out entrenched politicians and career bureaucrats?

Wow!

Ohhhh, as I float back down to earth.

Too many porcupines want everything already there for them.
They are not pioneers.
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varrin

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Re:More NH, ID, WY debate
« Reply #82 on: August 21, 2003, 08:13:44 pm »

I prefer to ask which state represents the best chance at a free state in our lifetime no matter how many people sign up because our success will not necessarily rise or fall on the number 20,000.  

I know this is old, but I think it bears stressing once again.  From the Project Participation Guidlines:

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4. Once 20,000 people have signed the Statement, participants in the FSP shall move to the state decided upon as expeditiously as possible and absolutely within five years of the crossing of the 20,000-signer threshold. Should the Project never attract 20,000 signers, the move shall be aborted.

The success of *this project* does hinge on the 20,000 number.  If we don't attract 20,000 people "the move shall be aborted."  What's the mean even for the WY fans?  Let's assume WY is chosen and we subsequently fail to attract 20,000 people.  There are some people who will wait to move (I predict moreso with WY than with NH or ID due to job considerations).  Those people aren't committed to moving until 1: we get 20,000 people and 2: five years has passed.  It could be years before the project is officially cancelled and *then* a new WY project would have to be organized.  Everyone with a commitment here will be released from that commitment.  Getting them to sign a new one years later with significantly softer support after the failure of this project might be tougher than you all think.

I've thought from the beginning that the 20,000 number is critically important.  We're already to over 5,300 which is great.  If we need to get to 20,000 people, I honestly believe between the three likely candidates, WY is the least likely to make it.  

Having said all that......  Why do I personally rank WY ahead of NH?  Well, there's a risk in all three that we may never get to 20,000.  If similar numbers apply given a failure of *any* of the three states to attract 20,000 (i.e. some number of people will go to the chosen state before or after the failure of the project no matter what), then WY has the advantage of lower population.  ID is attracting people now at a greater rate than NH or WY, which I suspect would also apply to our group (yes, we're libertarians, however, we're also diverse, much like the population at large).  To me, that gives ID the nod over NH.  However I can't see (given the failure of the project in any of the selected states) NH attracting at least double or more the post-failure participants as WY.  As a result, I suspect the activism ratio would be somewhat higher in WY than NH and, hence, it gets a little boost as a result.

Keep in mind that last paragraph assums failure.  I'm not inclined to assume failure so my preference leans towards success: ID...

V-

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