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Author Topic: Number of Gov't Workers  (Read 8143 times)

Franklin

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Number of Gov't Workers
« on: February 21, 2003, 10:07:10 am »

I am writing this thread to create awareness of a very significant statistic in regard to the FSP.  Please, please don't underestimate the box which tells us how many gov't workers there are in the potential heaven state.

I work for a large local gov't in MN and our state is going through a 4.3 billion dollar budget crunch.  Truth being told, even after the 4.3 cut this years budget is the largest in state history.  

Gov't workers are going nuts.  They are outraged that anyone would consider precious government programs waste.  Of course police, teachers, and firemen are all wonderful and who could ever want to cut them (so they say).  They will talk of how services will decline and how we will turn into Mississippi.

As you vote for a state please remember the resolve of goverment workers.  They work at a snails pace and live off the fruits of other peoples labor.  They will fight to the end to see to it that government will not be reduced- it's their livelihood.  They will never admit to the waste that they indulge in on a daily basis.
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freedomroad

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Re:Number of Gov't Workers
« Reply #1 on: February 21, 2003, 12:41:57 pm »

They will talk of how services will decline and how we will turn into Mississippi.

I do not know what these workers are thinking but Mississippi is a very nice states.  I do not know why some people would be against such a nice state.  

Quote
As you vote for a state please remember the resolve of goverment workers.  They work at a snails pace and live off the fruits of other peoples labor.  They will fight to the end to see to it that government will not be reduced- it's their livelihood.  They will never admit to the waste that they indulge in on a daily basis.

I have to disagree with you.  I know many, many government workers.  I am currently in the Army Reserve so I am a government worker.  My dad was a government worker for 15 years.  He turned out to be OK, sure he is somewhat-statist but most Americans are.  However, he would vote along with the FSP on many issues, as most Americans would.

I think federal government workers are not as bad as state and local government workers.  Teachers, I feel are some of the most statist, however, some of them are also pro-freedom.  I understand this issue has some importance, that is why it is included in the excel file.  However, it is not one of the main 5 factors or anything.  Citizen ideology and small government voter % for 2000 elections are the more important factors of this type.  For example, a state like WY has a large % of government workers but is most likely to vote for small government in elections (according to the 2000 election).  AK and WY both have large % of government workers but they are 2nd and 3rd for having the most libertarian ideology among their citizens.  So, either most of the government workers in AK and WY are libertarians or lots of the government workers in those states like freedom.  DE has very few government workers but is quite statist on most issues.  This issue is not black and white and might not just differ by region but also by state, city, and many other factors.

If you still consider this issue somewhat important, I'll direct you attention to another version of the argument.  A more important factor then % of government workers is raw number of government works.  This is a fake example: A pool of 20,000 spread out government workers from ND would produce a lot less activists then 35,000 government workers located 2 hours from Portland, ME.  Even though ND (in this example) has a higher % of government workers the raw numbers are lower.  Also, because the workers are spread out in ND but concentrated in ME they are much more likely to work together in ME.  However, the FSP would be connected via newsletters and emails in both states.  This means the FSP will not work together any less in a spread out states but anti-freedom people would work together less.

This means the % of government workers cannot be considered important by itself and needs to be combined with other factors.  How spread out the population of the state is, matters.  The raw number of government workers is important.  The anti-FSP workers are more likely to become anti-FSP activists if the state is small (like DE) or has many a large amount of its citizens in one small area (like AK and ID).  Do the citizens of the state, even the government workers have a history of not regulating things to death (like WY and rural AK)?  

Those are just some of my thoughts on the issue.  I hope that helps.

P.S.  I think it should be pointed out that all government workers are not slow or lazy.  Some do care and try to do good jobs.  Also, many of these people have been taught from birth that the government is the best way to do everything (we were all taught that) and they were never given examples of how private and public groups can do a better job.  If we tell and show some of these people that maybe some of their great services can be replaced with a private service that costs less and is more responsive to needs they might come on board.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2003, 12:45:44 pm by FreedomRoad »
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Kelton

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Re:Number of Gov't Workers
« Reply #2 on: February 21, 2003, 01:33:03 pm »

      While on the topic of government waste and inefficiency, it cannot be over-emphasized how much influence labor unions have on maintaining this status quo.  In theory, libertarians should not oppose labor unions, as they can be a powerful tool to protect employees from the abuses by oppressive and powerful employers. The problem is, however, in the history of modern labor unions they have been used as instruments to advance the Marxist agenda.  Any glance at union literature regularly distributed at union shops reveals it to be pure socialist propaganda.  Members of labor unions, especially government labor unions tend to vote for the most extreme position advanced in the party.  The recent meltdown of United airlines demonstrates this, as United was owned and controlled by employees, yet they still shot themselves in the foot by refusing to take some common sense measures to save the company. Both federal and state law, as well as judicial precedent all tend to give labor unions an unfair advantage over the rights of employers.  If I seem to be unfair in my stance against labor unions, read the extreme rantings of Neal Boortz (http://www.boortz.com/ ), who frequently rails against the "stupidity of labor unions".  
 Where labor unions have diminished power is in those states which have right-to-work laws, or laws which allow people to decide whether or not to join a union when they go to work for an employer where there is a union shop in place.  States which have passed right-to-work legislation among our candidate states are:
Idaho, Wyoming, North Dakota, South Dakota

All of the other candidate states are quite silent on allowing labor unions to force employees to pay them dues from their wages, even allowing unions to force employees to belong to a union against their will.  A significant percentage of the budgets of labor unions are spent on contributions to the campaigns of statists politicians.  According to the Labor Research organization, only New Hampshire and Wyoming resisted voting for a 'big-labor'-supported candidate in the whole nation during the last election cycle.  Next- place in the nation was Idaho, which only voted-in 1 candidate out of 4 labor-sponsored candidates.   ( http://www.laborresearch.org/charts.php?id=36 )

Membership rates in unions tend to be less in Right-to-Work states, but this rate is also influenced by the presence of certain jobs where unions prefer to organize within the states.  Rankings of our candidate states by percentage of work-force union membership:
SD 5% (19,000 members)
ND 7% (21,000 members)
ID  7% (42,000 members)
WY  9% (20,000 members)
VT 10% (30,000 members)
NH 10% (60,000 members)
DE 12% (45,000 members)
ME 12% (72,000 members)
MT 13% (48,000 members)
AK 22% (59,000 members)

Of course, this is not to say that all union members would oppose us.  Or even that each state's own set of circumstances could not play into our hands even with  union members opposing us.  It's just that given the track- record of labor unions in this country, and how very few members opt-out of seeing their contributions going to support statists, it might be a little more desireable to have less union members than more.
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freedomroad

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Re:Number of Gov't Workers
« Reply #3 on: February 21, 2003, 03:06:50 pm »

 
Membership rates in unions tend to be less in Right-to-Work states, but this rate is also influenced by the presence of certain jobs where unions prefer to organize within the states.  Rankings of our candidate states by percentage of work-force union membership:
SD 5% (19,000 members)
ND 7% (21,000 members)
ID  7% (42,000 members)
WY  9% (20,000 members)
VT 10% (30,000 members)
NH 10% (60,000 members)
DE 12% (45,000 members)
ME 12% (72,000 members)
MT 13% (48,000 members)
AK 22% (59,000 members)

Of course, this is not to say that all union members would oppose us.  Or even that each state's own set of circumstances could not play into our hands even with  union members opposing us.  It's just that given the track- record of labor unions in this country, and how very few members opt-out of seeing their contributions going to support statists, it might be a little more desireable to have less union members than more.


This is interesting.  Labor unions love mineral workers.  3 of the 10 states have large groups of mineral workers, MT, WY, and AK.

WY  9% (20,000 members)
MT 13% (48,000 members)
AK 22% (59,000 members)

Even though all 3 states have large groups on mineral workers Wyoming has only the 4th lowest percentage and the 2nd lowest amount of union workers while MT and AK have the highest percentages.  AK, NH, and ME have the highest amount of union members and all 3 of these states have a great deal of their population living in one small area so these union members will have less of a hassle if they decide to work against us; thus, they are more likely to work against us.

What about teacher unions?  AK, VT, ME and MT have the highest percent of their population as members of the NEA teacher unions. For actual numbers, ME, ID, NH, and MT have the highest amount of teachers that belong to the NEA.  WY, SD, and ND have the lowest amount.

That these numbers show is that AK, MT, and ME have lots of union and even unionized teacher citizens while SD and WY do not.
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mactruk

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Re:Number of Gov't Workers
« Reply #4 on: February 21, 2003, 03:49:22 pm »

  Dont worry about gov workers they are soon to be extinct.  The tax and spend is so far out of control that it has created a death spiral.  Take a look if you can at Seattle Times feb13 issue - 4 states have a pension gap greater then their yearly budget! What does this tell you - this is big trouble - so dont worry to much even the tax payer cant bail out tax-and-spend.  This is not to put down the common gov worker but look at what your gov leader have done to their pension let alone their future payrol.  Once a gov worker is out of work in MT they usually return to the big city states.
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Kelton

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Re:Number of Gov't Workers
« Reply #5 on: February 21, 2003, 04:09:50 pm »

Once a gov worker is out of work in MT they usually return to the big city states.
If the free state moves to Montana, and if that is true, then we are going to start a HUGE migration out of Montana, mactruk.  The number-one largest employer in Montana is government, according to the book entitled Montana, published in 1999, (I have the full description of the book in the Discover The States Thread).

Does anybody have the stats on % of workforce employed by government?  I know I have seen it around here somewhere, I just can't find it at the moment.
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Franklin

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Re:Number of Gov't Workers
« Reply #6 on: February 21, 2003, 04:50:03 pm »

Quote
I understand this issue has some importance, that is why it is included in the excel file.  However, it is not one of the main 5 factors or anything.  Citizen ideology and small government voter % for 2000 elections are the more important factors of this type.  For example, a state like WY has a large % of government workers but is most likely to vote for small government in elections (according to the 2000 election).  AK and WY both have large % of government workers but they are 2nd and 3rd for having the most libertarian ideology among their citizens.  So, either most of the government workers in AK and WY are libertarians or lots of the government workers in those states like freedom.

FreedomRoad I have an example that powerfully illustrates what I was trying to say...

In the large City Govt that I work for most everyone voted Republican in the last election.  We are a suburb and suburbonites tend to vote more conservatively.  Now that they elected Tim Pawlenty, he has offered huge spending cuts to local city governments which may mean layoffs.  How do you think these conservative voters reponded?  I will tell you they are pissed and a lot say they will not vote Republican next time.  

One individual I worked with has very conservative voting points, but when you threaten the trough at which gov't workers feed you lose their vote every time.

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Zxcv

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Re:Number of Gov't Workers
« Reply #7 on: February 23, 2003, 12:13:05 am »

I agree with Franklin that government workers are a big problem. Why? Because these are the activists who will oppose any changes we want to make. They are as important as whether or not we have large (statist) city populations to deal with.

However there are two ways of looking at it: percentage of government workers in the population, and number of government workers in the population.

Percentage has some importance, because it is a percentage that will usually vote and usually oppose our changes, but I think the numbers are even more important. What is worse, going into a state like Wyoming that has the highest percentage (but low number due to low population) or NH that has the lowest percentage but half again as many govt. workers as Wyoming? Those are the folks who will be out there trying to influence the rest of the population, and I'd rather deal with the lesser number we have in Wyoming than NH.

Another way of looking at this is that in any vote, we may start an extra 2.9% behind in the voting population in Wyoming compared to NH (because Wyoming has that much higher a percentage of govt. workers), but we should be able to more than compensate for this deficit by having only 2/3 the number of activists arrayed against us, in trying to influence the rest of the population. In theory, anyway!

Unfortunately the standard spreadsheet only has a row for percentage of government workers, not the number. So you don't get a choice which one you want to weigh more.
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Franklin

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Re:Number of Gov't Workers
« Reply #8 on: February 24, 2003, 02:55:34 pm »

Initially ZXcv I was thinking percentage is the only significant factor.  I thought this because of the obvious reason that it is a percentage vote that will win an election.

However, anyone in customer service knows that loud voices in small numbers recieve more attention and influential power than the masses who remain silent.  

I appreciate your critical thinking Zxcv.
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Kelton

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Re:Number of Gov't Workers
« Reply #9 on: February 24, 2003, 05:53:54 pm »



Strength of the Teachers' Unions
A measure of the strength of the National Education Association which the Free State activists will be going up against in any effort to privatize schools, change the curriculae, cut back the tax funding for public schools, or any other move that the school establishment would view as a challenge to their monopoly power. The following refers only to NEA numbers.  Note that AFT "votes" are full time equivalents and thus the "voters" which could be allied against us may be many, many more -- nearly every part timer and substitute teacher.
http://home.earthlink.net/~mantonucci/archives/20020716.htm
http://www.aft.org/

Total teacher numbers is also a crucial factor for the FSP - just like total voter numbers. In Idaho, Maine, New Hampshire, and Montana the teachers would outnumber the 20,000 Free State activists.  Just the 18,288 NEA membership in Maine would give 20,000 Free State activists a run for their money. When AFT numbers are added to the NEA membership, Alaska (13,560+) and Montana (14,194) teachers could give the Free State activists a hard fight. Teachers, especially union teachers, are activists - if for no other reason than they daily reach a large number of students and their parents. Remember too that the schools also swing a huge number of votes when spouses and parents are added to the weight the teachers, administrators and staff have. Yet their unending demands for more money can be defeated as we did three times in a row in our community (Leadville/Lake County in Colorado).

Note that the first category is the “best” from an anti-union monoploy standpoint.
The last category is the “worst”. How else to interpret these numbers is up to you.
Source:
http://www.nilrr.org/MonsterMonopoly.htm

Percent of K-12 employees in the NEA (2000 membership vs total employees)
(states with less than 1,000 AFT "votes" were omitted from the source for AFT numbers)

States That Do Not Authorize Teacher-Monopoly Bargaining or Forced-Dues      
38.30%   Wyoming (5,713 of 14,930)
       
States With Teacher Monopoly Bargaining, But No Forced Dues For Teachers      
36.10%   South Dakota (6,524 of 18,053)
37.60%   Idaho (11,132 of 29,613)
51.10%   Vermont (8,974 of 17,559)
51.70%   North Dakota (7,282 of 14,074) + 1,665 in AFT for total 63.6%
53.30%   Maine (18,288 of 34,301)
       
States That Authorize Teacher Monopoly Bargaining and Forced Dues      
40.80%   New Hampshire (11,834 of 28,974)
49.50%   Montana (10,621 of 21,477) + 3,573 in AFT for total 63.6%
53.90%   Alaska (9,892 of 18,342) + 3,668 in AFT for total 53.9%
60.40%   Delaware (9,239 of 15,290)

P.S.
Feel free to add more data in more posts.

« Last Edit: February 24, 2003, 05:58:52 pm by exitus »
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mactruk

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Re:Number of Gov't Workers
« Reply #10 on: February 24, 2003, 08:00:55 pm »

  I think this info has a lot of impact on the vote.  I would guess gov workers and public school workers tend to vote where as the average joe will not.  But the thought of freedom might draw a big citizen vote?  This vote would be by county and some counties have a real small public school head count but jobs would be hard to come by.  20000 votes in some counties in Montana would control everything!
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Hank

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Re:Number of Gov't Workers
« Reply #11 on: August 05, 2003, 10:06:45 pm »

Quote
The number-one largest employer in Montana is government,
See, regardless of how bad an economy gets, the government sector does not shrink. People push governments to hire their unemployed brothers, sisters, uncles, kids, and all the other relatives.  Sure, cutting back is fine. For the other guy. Get my daughter a job!
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