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Author Topic: Patriot act. Fly in the ointment?  (Read 10586 times)

atk

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Patriot act. Fly in the ointment?
« on: July 31, 2002, 12:39:12 pm »

Playing devil's advocate here.  Let's assume travel restrictions in the act are in force when the state is chosen. How do you suppose the powers that be would react to 20,000 people moving enmasse to one state?I don't doubt for one minute that someone who doesn't like this movement is keeping a eye on it. Might it be in the best interest of the movement to do some quick maneuvering now in order to avoid the most onerous parts of the act?
My hope is this generates some discussion.
Feel free to put this in the Yahoo group also.
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Dex Sinister

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Re:Patriot act. Fly in the ointment?
« Reply #1 on: July 31, 2002, 05:09:20 pm »

Er, could you be more specific as to exactly what you are referring to, atk?

<scratching head>

Dex }:>=-
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Mega Joule

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Re:Patriot act. Fly in the ointment?
« Reply #2 on: July 31, 2002, 09:15:09 pm »


Playing devil's advocate here.  Let's assume travel restrictions in the act are in force when the state is chosen. How do you suppose the powers that be would react to 20,000 people moving enmasse to one state?

Are you saying you thing the fedgov would actually try to prevent U.S. citizens from moving / traveling to any state they choose?  There are thus far no such travel restrictions and while I too thing the fedgov greatly oversteps their legitimate authority, I think it is a stretch to imagine that level of tyranny in so short a time span.  It has been the trend of the fedgov to slooooooowly usurp power, because stealing freedom in tiny increments leaves the masses not noticing what they have really lost.
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I don't doubt for one minute that someone who doesn't like this movement is keeping a eye on it.

That is certainly possible but so what, they what many groups.
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Might it be in the best interest of the movement to do some quick maneuvering now in order to avoid the most onerous parts of the act?

What sort of maneuvering are you thinking of that is not already covered under the constitution?  
Mega Joule
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"One essential of a free government is that it rest wholly on voluntary support.  And one certain proof that a goverment is not free, is that it coerces more or less persons to support it, against their will."  (Lysander Spooner, 1867)

Mega Joule

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Re:Patriot act. Fly in the ointment?
« Reply #3 on: August 08, 2002, 12:01:57 am »


Quote

There are thus far no such travel restrictions and while I too thing the fedgov greatly oversteps their legitimate authority, I think it is a stretch to imagine that level of tyranny in so short a time span.  It has been the trend of the fedgov to slooooooowly usurp power, because stealing freedom in tiny increments leaves the masses not noticing what they have really lost.


I sincerely hope that you are correct in this, but unfortunately the trend since 9/11 has been anything but slow... In fact, its been a literal snowball of straight out, undisguised assaults, removing most oversight & controls on government. Now the actual *enforcement* aspect of the current police state has in fact taken a slower route, but I strongly suspect that will be temporary.



It does seem that things have escalated severely since 9/11.  The fedgov likes to take such opportunities to tighten the rope around our necks.  Hopefully the federales will think carefully before trying something as stupid as travel restrictions in-country.  The masses are indeed hard to stir, but such a bold step by the government might possibly be enough to move the most stoic of the sheeple to rebellion.  It is my earnest hope that the fedgov will see it this way as well and avoid anything that drastic.  All any of us can do for now is bide our time and work diligently to make our free state a reality.  

Thought for the day:

Recruit, recruit, recruit.
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"One essential of a free government is that it rest wholly on voluntary support.  And one certain proof that a goverment is not free, is that it coerces more or less persons to support it, against their will."  (Lysander Spooner, 1867)

Reaper

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Re:Patriot act. Fly in the ointment?
« Reply #4 on: August 08, 2002, 12:06:10 am »

It's my personal belief that this project is already being closely monitored by fedgov.  I'm sure all our message board posts, email discussion groups, etc. are all logged by IP, etc.

So what?

Nothing we intend to do is illegal.  Although, they may wish it were.

Reaper smiles and waves to the fedgov agents.
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Reaper
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"If we turn from battle because there is little hope of victory, where then would valor be?  Let it ever be the goal that stirs us, not the odds."

Mega Joule

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Re:Patriot act. Fly in the ointment?
« Reply #5 on: August 08, 2002, 12:16:50 am »


It's my personal belief that this project is already being closely monitored by fedgov.  I'm sure all our message board posts, email discussion groups, etc. are all logged by IP, etc.

So what?

Nothing we intend to do is illegal.  Although, they may wish it were.

Reaper smiles and waves to the fedgov agents.

Since when does not doing anything illegal keep one out of trouble with the government?  All they have to due is pass some new law, act, war on (fill in the blank) or whatever and declare that what was once legal now makes one an enemy of the state.  Hell CA magically turns perfectly good, legal, firearms into evil assault weapons all the time with a simple wave of the legislative wand.

Mega Joule
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"One essential of a free government is that it rest wholly on voluntary support.  And one certain proof that a goverment is not free, is that it coerces more or less persons to support it, against their will."  (Lysander Spooner, 1867)

Reaper

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Re:Patriot act. Fly in the ointment?
« Reply #6 on: August 08, 2002, 12:19:46 am »

Yeah, I know.

But for now, our plans are within the law.  Not that it matters really, they'll make something up if they have to.

However, short of some very restrictive new laws, or rounding us all up and shooting us I don't see much way of stopping us.
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Reaper
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"If we turn from battle because there is little hope of victory, where then would valor be?  Let it ever be the goal that stirs us, not the odds."

Elizabeth

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Re:Patriot act. Fly in the ointment?
« Reply #7 on: August 08, 2002, 01:21:17 am »

Well, we'll move sooner if we get 20,000 sooner, and I'd bet some people will start moving as soon as the state is chosen (I probably will, for example).

But we can only do what we can do, if you know what I mean.  Welcome aboard, and remember, for every person you recruit, we're that much closer to moving!   ;)
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Matthew

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Re:Patriot act. Fly in the ointment?
« Reply #8 on: August 08, 2002, 01:23:30 am »

Some info on USAPA:
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d107:h.r.03162:
this site actually has the text and other info about it.

This is a partial analysis of the act: http://www.eff.org/Privacy/Surveillance/Terrorism_militias/20011031_eff_usa_patriot_analysis.html
Just reading the begging of this analysis is scary.

The act is 300 some odd pages, I wonder how many senators and representitves actual read this...
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Mega Joule

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Re:Patriot act. Fly in the ointment?
« Reply #9 on: August 08, 2002, 01:37:47 am »

Quote
Quote from: Elizabeth
Well, we'll move sooner if we get 20,000 sooner, and I'd bet some people will start moving as soon as the state is chosen (I probably will, for example).
[/quote


I also think if the fedgov continues the snowball rolling into anything approaching the Nazi regime many more people will come looking for hope.  That in itself might cause a massive increase in our membership, driving the FSP movement with it.  

Just speculating.  

I too hope that what we have been here is not too little, too late.  Let's just keep recruiting.

Mega Joule
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"One essential of a free government is that it rest wholly on voluntary support.  And one certain proof that a goverment is not free, is that it coerces more or less persons to support it, against their will."  (Lysander Spooner, 1867)

Dex Sinister

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Re:Patriot act. Fly in the ointment?
« Reply #10 on: August 08, 2002, 04:16:57 am »


The act is 300 some odd pages, I wonder how many senators and representitves actual read this...


According to Rep. Ron Paul (TX), none of them before they voted on it. It hadn't been printed yet.

Dex }:>=-
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TomPaine

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Re:Patriot act. Fly in the ointment?
« Reply #11 on: August 08, 2002, 01:46:27 pm »

We must never underestimate the power of the federal govt. If they thought that this could really happen, I don't think they would give a second thought to passing legislation against us. In all likelyhood, we are  being watched right now. The fact that most of us are patriots and love this country dearly won't make a bit of difference when they kick in your door.
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Mega Joule

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Re:Patriot act. Fly in the ointment?
« Reply #12 on: August 08, 2002, 02:22:47 pm »


We must never underestimate the power of the federal govt. If they thought that this could really happen, I don't think they would give a second thought to passing legislation against us. In all likelyhood, we are  being watched right now. The fact that most of us are patriots and love this country dearly won't make a bit of difference when they kick in your door.


You may be right, but that is all the more reason for us to continue the effort, increase the effort even.  We may end up with soldiers of the fedgov kicking in our doors, but it is better to fight and die, than to live a slave.

Meg
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"One essential of a free government is that it rest wholly on voluntary support.  And one certain proof that a goverment is not free, is that it coerces more or less persons to support it, against their will."  (Lysander Spooner, 1867)

amyday

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Re:Patriot act. Fly in the ointment?
« Reply #13 on: August 08, 2002, 03:38:34 pm »

Quote
And yes, presuming things make sense with FSP after a bit of research, we would also make the move when the state is chosen. However I do plan to keep reading and make sure I'm not wandering into some sort of loopy Waco or Ruby Ridge type of group, hahaha.


I am an anarchist, but most of the people in the FSP seem to be less government (original constitutional governement) libertarian types. They are very level headed, intending to promote change through peaceful, democratic solutions. You'll hear some extreme views, but don't let that put you off. Read the statement of intent, and you'll see that the FSP is not planning on doing any thing that the average lover of freedom would find extreme.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2002, 03:44:43 pm by amyday »
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Mega Joule

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Re:Patriot act. Fly in the ointment?
« Reply #14 on: August 08, 2002, 09:50:36 pm »

Quote
Quote from: MouseBorg
I think it was best said:

[i
"Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty or give me death!"
-- Patrick Henry
[/i]

"These are the times that try men's souls. The summer soldier and the sunshine patriot will, in this crisis, shrink from the service of their country; but he that stands it now, deserves the love and thanks of man and woman."
-- Thomas Paine



<Goose bumps>  I sooooo love the words of our founding fathers.  Their courage and strength of character can scarce be found in the populace today.  If we succeed in what we are here attempting, we too may someday be quoted by freedom loving people everywhere.  

Stay the course.

Meg
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