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Author Topic: What type of people are in the FSP?  (Read 32070 times)

Bill

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Re:What type of people are in the FSP?
« Reply #15 on: August 01, 2002, 05:03:19 pm »


We need to all realize that there will probably be QUITE a few groups of people looking forward to the Free State as a potential launch pad for all sorts of "political and social experimentation".


Hey everyone. I Just joined the discussion group and I'm very interested in the FSP, although a  little afraid of the initial commitment. I don't want to make a promise that I may not have the cahouna's to back up when the time comes. I want to address Stephani's comment here a bit more, perhaps to raise some enthusiasm concerning the number of people who have actually signed up so far. I believe that for every person who makes the committment, there are several people like myself who have a wait and see attitude. I would be more inclined to make a move after the initial influx of hardcore supporters have gained a foothold and can show the rest of us fence sitters that the plan has a viable chance of actually succeeding. I believe that you, the activists in the FSP will be surprised at the number of us, the uncertain hopefuls on the sidelines who will come out of the woodwork in a sort of "second wave" movement once we see a sign of real hope or progress. I am sure that I'll get the usual speal about how the founding fathers sacrificed for what they believed in and I should be a tenth the activist that they were if I really want freedom in my lifetime, but what this project asks of its members is quite a committment. I admire those of you who are willing to put it on the line for this dream, I support and applaud you, but I am unable at this point in my life to stand with you. I'm going to have to wait and see.
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percy, aka tntsmum

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Re:What type of people are in the FSP?
« Reply #16 on: August 01, 2002, 05:31:37 pm »

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Hell, you're already 50 to 75% of the way to socialism in the States as it is, I would advise that you wait a few more years, stay put where you are... socialism should be in full swing before you know it!


That doesn't even make sense. Take for example a small group of 30 people. They want to form a strict religious commune, with prayer twice daily, 10% tithing of income, church for 3 hours on Sunday, no dancing, no swearing, etc.  Can these 30 people change the laws of the US so that everyone around them follows these rules? Of course not. But in the Free State, they can form a little walled community that provides its own schooling, own internal welfare, and insists the moral codes be followed as well. THIS is voluntary socialism; giving up VOLUNTARILY for the good of a *select* group.

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I am quite agreeable to people living their lives as they see fit BUT, I have great reservations about setting up socialist communes in the Free State.


Would you hold a gun to their heads to stop them? If you think "there oughta be a law against it", that's exactly what you're advocating.

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I don't know that this would be beneficial to either the socialists


And precisely what are you advocating, when you are presuming to decide what would beneficial to "the socialists"? Shouldn't THEY be allowed to decide what is most beneficial?

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or those who desire freedom and independance, free from demands that we all serve the collective. And no, I am not forgetting that the claimed desire is to simply set up self contained socialist communes.


Just because they want to live their lives a certain way does NOT necessarily mean that they will insist on everyone else doing the same.  

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Quite honestly, let us ask ourselves... If those who feel that the needs & rights of the individual are subserviant to the needs of the collective, when they vote their conscience, what will happen when we try to implement reform through voting?


If we don't have enough people to overcome those votes, we lose.  But if out of fear of losing we start deciding who will be allowed to voluntary associate, and use the power of the state to enforce it, we've already lost. Besides, how are you doing to determine if a particular group of people is a "socialist commune?" Interviews? Socialism police?

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Please, if I have not thought this out thoroughly, someone let me know where I may be going wrong in my thought process. I truly do not want to sound unkind but I simply cannot get past this paradox.


Break it down to its simplist form. In a Free State, socialists communes may form. You may not like it. But are you willing to use force to prevent them from doing so?

What is all this talk about guns to heads and using force? I've had enough of that already, which is why I'm interested in the Free State and sure as heck wouldnt suggest ANY such tactics on others. That's the whole point of this right? Freedom, including fredom of association.... No, I hadn't forgotten that.

DANG! Did I really come off sounding like I think we should wall off the Free State and have thought police roaming?

I thought I was asking for help figuring out what seemed to be a core contradiction... those seeking to serve the collective going to a place where people are mounting an effort to reduce or eliminate requirements on the individual to serve the collective.

You did answer my question, thanks.... sure could have done without the rubber hose though.... :'(
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Elizabeth

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Re:What type of people are in the FSP?
« Reply #17 on: August 01, 2002, 06:35:24 pm »

I believe that for every person who makes the committment, there are several people like myself who have a wait and see attitude. I would be more inclined to make a move after the initial influx of hardcore supporters have gained a foothold and can show the rest of us fence sitters that the plan has a viable chance of actually succeeding. I believe that you, the activists in the FSP will be surprised at the number of us, the uncertain hopefuls on the sidelines who will come out of the woodwork in a sort of "second wave" movement once we see a sign of real hope or progress.

Hi Bill!  Welcome to the discussion.

Okay, I won't give you the FF spiel, but I will offer this... If the choices are:

1)  Wait and see, but FSP never gets 20,000 because too many people have the same attitude, and so another failed experiment gets chalked up to the libertarian philosophy, further weakening its credibility.

2)  Get out of your comfort zone, make a scary and bold commitment, and get us one step closer to liberty in our lifetime?

*music playing in background*

After all, when you think about it, what's the worst that could happen?  If you sign on, and we don't reach 20,000, you don't go anywhere.  

If you sign on and we do get 20,000, you'll be part of a truly historic movement, a bold experiment in reduction of governmental intervention.  You'll leave your family and friends, but you'll be going with 20,000 other like-minded people, with similar interests.  It'll cost some money to move, but you'll have lots of time to save up and prepare for the move.  There will be people helping each other find jobs, housing, and everything else you could want.  Will it be chaotic?  Sure!  But what good thing is ever easy?
« Last Edit: August 01, 2002, 06:39:07 pm by Elizabeth »
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Elizabeth

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Re:What type of people are in the FSP?
« Reply #18 on: August 01, 2002, 06:40:44 pm »


You did answer my question, thanks.... sure could have done without the rubber hose though.... :'(


No, no, no -- I'm the one with the rubber hose.  Debra's just the Overlord.
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Eddie_Bradford

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Re:What type of people are in the FSP?
« Reply #19 on: August 01, 2002, 06:47:20 pm »

Quote

Quote

Quote:
Quite honestly, let us ask ourselves... If those who feel that the needs & rights of the individual are subserviant to the needs of the collective, when they vote their conscience, what will happen when we try to implement reform through voting?

If we don't have enough people to overcome those votes, we lose.  But if out of fear of losing we start deciding who will be allowed to voluntary associate, and use the power of the state to enforce it, we've already lost. Besides, how are you doing to determine if a particular group of people is a "socialist commune?" Interviews? Socialism police?

I think the question here is wheather we should 'encourage' people to join in the first place if we think they're going to vote against us.  Personally I think the type of person who would want to set up a small exclusive society like this wouldn't ultimately vote against us so I think it's fine to encourage this type of person but then again I could be wrong.
-Eddie
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debra

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Re:What type of people are in the FSP?
« Reply #20 on: August 01, 2002, 10:12:24 pm »


What is all this talk about guns to heads and using force? I've had enough of that already, which is why I'm interested in the Free State and sure as heck wouldnt suggest ANY such tactics on others. That's the whole point of this right? Freedom, including fredom of association.... No, I hadn't forgotten that.

DANG! Did I really come off sounding like I think we should wall off the Free State and have thought police roaming?

I thought I was asking for help figuring out what seemed to be a core contradiction... those seeking to serve the collective going to a place where people are mounting an effort to reduce or eliminate requirements on the individual to serve the collective.

You did answer my question, thanks.... sure could have done without the rubber hose though.... :'(


Sorry, I didn't mean to be so harsh about it.

The "guns to the head" statement is a ... shock-phrase, for want of a better term. So often, people see things they don't like (anything from marijuana use to gay relationships to communes) and say, "There oughta be a law against that."  What they *don't* think about is that by making a law against it, they are literally holding a gun to someone's head for that act, via the police. So I always ask, "Do you find the behavior so distasteful or immoral that you personally would hold a gun to someone's head to make them stop?" They usually answer "no". Then I ask, "Why, then, do you want laws against it, since that's exactly what the police will do?"

I forgot, however, that I'm already preaching to the choir in this forum!  :-[ Mea culpa!
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antayla

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Re:What type of people are in the FSP?
« Reply #21 on: August 01, 2002, 11:52:38 pm »

>>volunarily give up all of their wealth and earnings to their

collective group which they the distribute however they like.<<

How do you do quotes?

Anyways, that's a pretty good description of what I would call

'voluntary socialism' cept what I had in mind was a little less

drastic :P  I was thinking that this particular collective I had in

mind could pool some money to buy a large piece of land,

then apportion it out according to percentage of contribution,

with a certain amount of community owned property where

public buildings could be built, roads created and a 'rental

property area' with rates controlled by the community could be

set up for communitiarians who had only their skills to offer.  

The association would have to set up their 'internal covenants'

in advance (IE: the community doesn't want weapons carried

on community property, or that funds and resources would be

set aside for a 'public' school system within the community) so

that everything would be out in the open before the property

was purchased.  I figure the system would be more socialist

than communistic, with only enough

income/resources/whatever taken to cover the social costs

(welfare system, libraries, transit, health care, etc.) while the

remainder would be left in the hands of the communitarians

(who could use it to buy more land, invest in their business

etc.)  

Outside corporations would be prohibited from doing business

within the community, according to the charter (although I

daresay if we had some kind of public market, then outside

INDIVIDUALS would be welcome, but they would be restricted

to public areas and have to respect the covenants while on

community area.)  

People who wanted to join the community would have to sign

the same charter and perhaps donate a small part of their land

for public use (such as roads etc.)  at which point they would

also be entitled to the privileges of being within the community.

People who no longer wanted to be in the community could

sell their property back to the commune for the amount they

contributed originally. (Where it could be put up for sale or

developed as the community wished.)  Probably post-charter

creation members would have to pay for the 'publicly' funded

improvements on their land if they left the community, but they

would regain title to the land that they donated to commune

when they joined.

I was also thinking it would be nice to have a truly

representative government...  My idea is that instead of voting

for a candidate that candidate would get pledges.  The more

pledges a candidate had, the higher percentage of

representation he would be able to have behind him.  People

could remove their pledges if the candidate took an action that

the (if that makes any sense :P )

Also part of the charter would be provisions for the state

government to have authority within the community, to carry out

its duty of preserving individual rights. (I think every

'government' needs outside monitoring... be they socialist or

otherwise)

Of course this is a very rough plan and I haven't really talked to

anybody about it much.  I think I'm going to write up a rough

draft and go over the ideas with some friends of mine.
I think the idea I'm striving for is economic freedom as well as

individual freedom.  Because the corporations are more

powerful than the federal government could ever be.  As I see

it the only way to truly get free of corporate rule is to focus more

on individuals and their communities.


.... I wrote all this stuff above a day or two ago... I don't have alot of time to address everything here, but I would think that this community would necessarily have to agree to respect the basic law of the state; namely the libertarian policies that made the commune possible.  I really do consider this free state thing more than just one potential state... I hope that if this experiement works, we will be joined by other states, countries and groups of people who agree with us and are willing to play by the rules of libertarianism.  The UN isn't working because it is circumvented by the multinational corporations and their banks, and until we deal with them, we won't be free.  A very progressive idea to be sure, but important imho.
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Elizabeth

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Re:What type of people are in the FSP?
« Reply #22 on: August 02, 2002, 12:14:40 am »


How do you do quotes?


If you want to quote a post, you can click on the "quote" button and it will set you up with a reply with the material already quoted.

Or, you can type [ quote ] insert quoted text [ /quote ] manually - but you have to eliminate the spaces inside the brackets, I only did that so you could see it.

Here's where you can find all the codes for posting:
http://forum.freestateproject.org/YaBBHelp/posting.html
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cathleeninsc

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Re:What type of people are in the FSP?
« Reply #23 on: August 02, 2002, 02:22:11 pm »




Sorry, I didn't mean to be so harsh about it.

The "guns to the head" statement is a ... shock-phrase, for want of a better term...


Your words are definitely "on target". If it seems harsh it is likely because of the dang photo! j/k really!

Cathleen in SC
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percy, aka tntsmum

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Re:What type of people are in the FSP?
« Reply #24 on: August 02, 2002, 05:32:07 pm »

Quote
Quote


So often, people see things they don't like (anything from marijuana use to gay relationships to communes) and say, "There oughta be a law against that."  What they *don't* think about is that by making a law against it, they are literally holding a gun to someone's head for that act, via the police. So I always ask, "Do you find the behavior so distasteful or immoral that you personally would hold a gun to someone's head to make them stop?" They usually answer "no". Then I ask, "Why, then, do you want laws against it, since that's exactly what the police will do?"

I see now I really did sound like I was going off the deep end; Don't now why I had such a tough time comprehending the "voluntary" aspect of these communities. Thanks for straightening things out for me.
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Uncle Deedah

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Re:What type of people are in the FSP?
« Reply #25 on: August 04, 2002, 09:53:56 pm »

I would like to respond to Bill.

I too am hesitent to commit. I am leaning towards signing up despite the fact that my wife said "Have fun in New Hampshire, Deedah" when I told her about the FSP. (I live in Florida, I moved here to get away from winter!)

But, like I said, I am leaning towards signing up. (simply because if you read the estimates it's not something you would really need to actually DO for a few years) Hell, if I truly believed in my heart and soul RIGHT NOW that this thing would work I would be there, just to be part of something bigger than myself.

So...from one fence sitter to another, you go first!
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debra

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Re:What type of people are in the FSP?
« Reply #26 on: August 04, 2002, 11:39:53 pm »

If it'll help:

"I dare you! I *double* dare you!!"

;D
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antayla

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Re:What type of people are in the FSP?
« Reply #27 on: August 05, 2002, 03:36:33 pm »

It will only work if people sign up... I figure, what have I got to lose?  It can't be any worse than slowly becoming a slave to a system you can't fight alone.  Besides, I owe it to my children (when I have them anyways :P)
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Uncle Deedah

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Re:What type of people are in the FSP?
« Reply #28 on: August 05, 2002, 04:05:15 pm »

A minor nit-pick...

Actually, it will only work if people MOVE. Signing up without intending to follow through is as bad, if not worse, than not signing up, methinks. I'll sign up, but I won't do it untill I am sure that I will indeed follow through with my commitment.

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Bill

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Re:What type of people are in the FSP?
« Reply #29 on: August 05, 2002, 04:48:50 pm »

Thanks everyone for weighing in, but I believe that each of you in and around this project has the belief that it's already too late to save the good old U.S.A. I believe that its not too late to impact the nation in the way that the National LP had always hoped to. We all hold out that gradually and eventually we will win enough influence in just one state to effect policy and set an example for the rest of the nation, and when they get jealous about how kick ass our one free state is, the rest will run to Libertarian principles like a bunch of falling dominoes. The difference with FSP'ers is, that you have given up on the national approach as proposed by the national LP and are takeing steps to accelerate the first state to fall part of the plan. I do think its brilliant and it will work, I'm certain. But I havn't given up on the national LP's approach that the   first state is really just the beginning! Bravo to all of you for helping the first domino to fall. I still yet may join in, but I still hold out hope for the nation as a whole. P.S. that is why I get so rattled when I read about talk of secession! I havn't given up on the other 49!
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