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Author Topic: Blacks tend to be more "libertarian" than any other ethnic group in America  (Read 9398 times)

AnonCastillo

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When you use the term 'issues that are important to Blacks', you imply that they have a common plight and, interests in common. This is another myth that I have found is not true in the Black community.

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that they all had the same plight, but with 90% of blacks voting Democrat, there are some issues that are agreed on by a vast majority of the black population that aren't anywhere near as widely agreed on by the population as a whole.
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thegotoguy

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SO the real question is How???  Anyone have a good idea?

ahem...

If we want to reach people of other backgrounds, I really think we have to reach out to them one-by-one, starting with those we are close friends with. . . .

Things in politics move VERY slowly.  We can't expect to come up with a magic bullet that will convert others en masse overnight.

A lot of this is going to have to come from people like Walter Williams and Larry Elder.  However, right now, they're viewed as Uncle Toms by a lot of black people.  But, politics is strange and events can change peoples' opinions on a dime.

I think we need a couple of really flame-throwing (figuratively speaking) black libertarians to stir up anti-government sentiment within the black community.  Just like us, many of them do inheritly distrust government (and they have PLENTY of reasons).  Right now, all the black libertarians I know of are really soft-spoken gentlemen.  We need someone with Al Sharpton's wit and Walter Williams's politics.

It may take years before we find someone like that, but I think that's the only thing that will work.

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libertyovertyranny

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An incredibly disproporitionate number of victims of the War on Drugs are black males.  Of any "group," they have by far suffered the most.  And of any "community," the black community has suffered the most.  The War on Drugs helps keep the ghetto rundown.  Not only that, but a significant amount of black males have lost their voting rights because of drug convictions.  

This seems like the issue to use.
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CaptiousDuality

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As I have pointed out in the celebrity threads of this forum, there is a tendancy among many out there to grasp at straws to find libertarianism in someone

This isn't saying anything. The FSP is not just composed of libertarians and libertarians themselves have quite a wide array of viewpoints. There's really no such thing as a standard libertarian. The only common thread among us is that we think people should be able to decide for themsselves. Most of us think states or individual communities can do whatever they wish but have a problem when it's imposed on the whole nation. Also someone wth some views against government intervention/regulation is someone who it is easier to show why the other views against gov reg/intervention make more sense. Someone with some libertarian views can do just as much good for the FSP since many people are not heavily involved with politics. Most people have a few issues that they care about which is why you can see support for people like us from people like NORML members who really only have one agenda.

I think a lot of blacks, like a lot of liberals, are an economics lesson away from libertarianism.

This was largely my point.

When you use the term 'issues that are important to Blacks', you imply that they have a common plight and, interests in common. This is another myth that I have found is not true in the Black community.

Sure they do it's just not unique to black people, it's people as a whole. It's just because the majority of blacks live in urban areas some issues do mean more to them because they effect urban areas. IE the War on Drugs isn't such a problem when you live 300 miles from anywhere with a drug task force...

I wonder??  How many of you folks really even know a black person or have ever called one a friend?

I am 3/4 french and 1/4 black. I grew up in cities. I went to high school in public schools in Detroit. If not for the internet a better question would be how many white people I know.

The concept of "race" is scientifically invalid; it doesn't exist.


This is true. There is more genetic diversity between my cats than in all of humanity. This doesn't mean that people care about though. That they don't still label themselves or associate with one "color" group. I still have to find a box to check when I fill out applications or surveys.

have such a black "victum mentality"

This is what I was talking about in my post. It's a perpetuated myth. Those who see past it are the most insanely libertarian people you could ever hope to meet. =)

Whether you're talking about selling a product, service, or ideology, people generally respond more favorably to people who they perceive to be like them.  Getting a bunch of white people together to go proselytize in black communities won't work and may be counterproductive.

This isn't right. People don't respond favorably because they think you're like them. They respon favorably because you don't think you're different enough to matter and you talk to them. I am basically yellow. I definitely look more white. Black people can tell I'm mixed, white people almost never can. I'm female. I'm 21. I have more luck bringing black males who are an age bracket or two above me around to seeing my points than anyone else. I used to work 3rd shift with two white males a couple years older than me who were basically left Democrats verging on being Greens. They'd try and start arguments with me. I'd find myself being cheered on by a group of black males who were about 10 years older than me. If you talk to people and are logical and funnhy and not condescending they will respond positively to you! Life experience is the greatest plus to the idea of libertarianism and that's largely ignored. YES many libertarians are educated white middle class males. Libertarian views make logical sense to them and they can justify them academically. But we seem to overlook how common sense they are and how everyday practical they are. Many people just haven't heard a viewpoint that makes sense yet. If you sit down and explain simple things like how the war on drugs is putting young black men away or welfare encourages the high rate of illegitimacy and keeps urban blacks in poverty while also discouraging businesses from building around them that would offer the opportunity for them to pull out of that poverty they get it! Having a horrendous city education does not make one stupid it's just that you have to use examples in a way that they make sense to someone who has never taken an economics or sociology course. It's really a lot simpler than we're all guilty of getting into when we argue with each other in libertarian forumns.

People who have some money start businesses. They hire people who need money. Government takes money from people who have money. They fire people so they don't take the loss.

Kids can understand it.


If the government sanctioned your family members being strung up from trees, would you be a statist?

Heh. Part of the great urban myth is that the people who did that are all Republicans now so as long as you aren't a Rep you're okay.

3) The message cannot come from 'White middle-class Libertarians' if it's to be credible.  In one sense, picking New Hampshire (a largely white state according to the census) hurts, because it's harder to demonstrate the difference even now in NH compared to some major city with a large Black population.

Same as above. But the problem with NH isn't that it's a "white" state. As soon as you go along those terms you're creating something that shouldn't be there. The color of your skin does not have anything to do with how much government intervention you want in your life. The biggest problem with NH is that it's so rural. The few cities it has are very small. When I was checking out populations there a while back I think the biggest city I saw had 100k people. Where I live now (St. Louis) isn't even a large city and you could toss together a couple suburbs and have more than 100k people. If you want to reach people you do do it one by one, or in small groups but that number grows exponentially. Don't try and make comparisons between a place that exists now. Just show what's wrong with what we have now. Affirmative Action is a way of saying you're too dumb compared to white kids to get into school so we have to give you extra points for being non-white. It also can put kids in schools that are not well suited for them and increases the number of dropouts. The large number of bureaucratic staff in your schools suck away the money to keep decent teachers and make it so that your tax dollars go towards giving your kids inferior educations. Welfare says we understand that men are useless fucking bums who can't help raise chidren so we'll give you a check and him an order to stay away. Gov housing says we understand that you are too useless to put a roof over your head so we'll make places that you won't care for because you don't pay for to drive away all the people with money who may otherwise have brought some money and economic viability into your community etc etc....

All you really have to do is go downtown find some people hanging out and talk to them. I swear. It's that easy. I've created more potential libertarians on the bus than I could ever hope to on my college campus. =)
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thegotoguy

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Whether you're talking about selling a product, service, or ideology, people generally respond more favorably to people who they perceive to be like them.  Getting a bunch of white people together to go proselytize in black communities won't work and may be counterproductive.

This isn't right. People don't respond favorably because they think you're like them...

People DO generally respond more favorably to people the perceive to be like them.  It's called "mirroring" and it's a very popular sales technique.  I'm talking strictly about technique here, not substance.  All else being equal (the message) people will respond more favorably to people they perceive to be like them.

Skin color isn't the only variable.  If you dress, use body language, and/or speak more like someone, you are going to have more influence over them, all else [the message] being equal.
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"Hagrid"

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I am 3/4 french and 1/4 black. I grew up in cities. I went to high school in public schools in Detroit. If not for the internet a better question would be how many white people I know. {snip}

I'm female. I'm 21.
I have more luck bringing black males who are an age bracket or two above me around to seeing my points than anyone else.

{snip}
If you sit down and explain simple things like how the war on drugs is putting young black men away or welfare encourages the high rate of illegitimacy and keeps urban blacks in poverty while also discouraging businesses from building around them that would offer the opportunity for them to pull out of that poverty they get it!

SA, not just for the above reasons you put so well, but because I can already see both how well you communicate and reach out, I'm going to suggest that you take a lead in this.  You've already done some outreach like collegefsp, so maybe this is the next step: urban liaison?  Youth or Black co-liaison?


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The biggest problem with NH is that it's so rural. The few cities it has are very small. When I was checking out populations there a while back I think the biggest city I saw had 100k people.

This is true.  Manchester is only 100K, but as Don Gorman pointed out to me during a visit there:  "Ok, I'm going to drive you through the worst neighborhood in this city.  You tell me when we get there."... "Um, ok.. I will."  "Too late, we're already past it."

Someone who wants a heavily urban life isn't going to find NH very appealing.  Boston, or even New York, are far more attractive for those people, and NH will always feel like 'out in the sticks'.

I currently live in a 100K city, and Manchester was a bit bigger in some ways, a bit smaller in others, it has it's faults and virtues, and the nicest thing for me was you could get outside of it in 15 minutes.

Despite having grown up in a very urban (just outside NYC) area, I left it knowing that I'd never want to live like that again.

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If you want to reach people you do do it one by one, or in small groups but that number grows exponentially. Don't try and make comparisons between a place that exists now. Just show what's wrong with what we have now. Affirmative Action is a way of saying you're too dumb compared to white kids to get into school so we have to give you extra points for being non-white. It also can put kids in schools that are not well suited for them and increases the number of dropouts. The large number of bureaucratic staff in your schools suck away the money to keep decent teachers and make it so that your tax dollars go towards giving your kids inferior educations. Welfare says we understand that men are useless fucking bums who can't help raise chidren so we'll give you a check and him an order to stay away. Gov housing says we understand that you are too useless to put a roof over your head so we'll make places that you won't care for because you don't pay for to drive away all the people with money who may otherwise have brought some money and economic viability into your community etc etc....

Each area is different.  Where I live now, downtown is hippie central, and the anarchist youth are all green, socialist, or otherwise wanting the state to leave them alone but pay for them social welfare wise (and/or pan handle).  Nobody is interested in Libertarian views because that would require being self-responsible and they'd rather smoke and chill than have to really do things.  Taxes?  Hey, they don't pay taxes, the rich people pay taxes.  Tax the rich more, and give the poor more money, like free services.


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All you really have to do is go downtown find some people hanging out and talk to them. I swear. It's that easy. I've created more potential libertarians on the bus than I could ever hope to on my college campus. =)

Ok, so here's my 'challenge' to you:  create a way to outreach to people on the bus.  A flyer?  Or is the FSP idea too 'far' to reach for?

Tracy Saboe

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Larry Elder, Walter Williams, Richard Boddie

Thomas Sowell also

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CaptiousDuality

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People DO generally respond more favorably to people the perceive to be like them.  It's called "mirroring" and it's a very popular sales technique.  I'm talking strictly about technique here, not substance.  All else being equal (the message) people will respond more favorably to people they perceive to be like them.

Yes I know what mirroring is. In strictly selling a product or in trying to make people like you it can be important. When it comes to ideology though it's quite different. You don't hve to like someone to share beliefs with them. In fact it kind of works the opposite way there. When sharing ideology it's because one is being reasonable, polite and logical that people are willing to consider their point of view. When people see that your point of view makes sense they begin to like you.


Someone who wants a heavily urban life isn't going to find NH very appealing.  Boston, or even New York, are far more attractive for those people, and NH will always feel like 'out in the sticks'

This is true. There are two points that save it though and that's that some people currently in urban areas are there out of familirity not any particular love for urban life, and some (like me) who do love urban life are willing to sacrifice it to an extent. I'll move to southern NH and just end up driving to Boston a lot. =) Hopefully when people in other states see how free NH has become they'll want to change their state too and then I'll have an opportunity to live in a city again when I run on over to start the next state.

Each area is different.  Where I live now, downtown is hippie central, and the anarchist youth are all green, socialist, ...Nobody is interested in Libertarian views.


100k is pretty small for a city, and actual downtown in cities is rarely hippie central, that's usually towards the edges of cities so would I be correct in assuming you live in a college town? The things I've discussed are more applicable in talking to adults or young people with some actual life experience (read: have worked to buy things they need not just want). College kids can be reached though. The key in showing the young (who do run Green) the benefits in libertarianism to debunk many of the myths and misconceptions they hold on to. Stressing things like how redistribution of wealth creates less wealth overall, planned economies fail for lack of innovation (when products are produced as there as a demand for them instead of creating products and then looking for demand technology goes stagnant), that government programs are inefficient and often (you'll want a list of examples I can point you to some books that are nothing but examples of how gov intervention has gone awry) do more harm than good, and that people are not bad. Normal folks DO care just as much as they do and will of their own free will help people and preserve the natural resources in their area without being forced to by gov.

[i[Ok, so here's my 'challenge' to you:  create a way to outreach to people on the bus.  A flyer?  Or is the FSP idea too 'far' to reach for?[/i]

Flyers are ineffective in this case because core principles need to be explained. I'm talking actual face time. Just start conversations with people. Listen in on what people are talking about and when the conversation leans towards a place you can jump in do so. Localize it. Take issues that happen in your area (IE here in STL we have major issues w/ city schools b/c they were bankrupt and are now being managed by a private company) and talk about them.

I don't know what any type of position would entail but I'd certainly be willing to help anyone who wishes to make an outreach to their urban area.
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Steve

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Blacks overwhelmingly loved Clinton, and thought he was their best friend ever.  I usually cite statistics about the increased incarceration rate under Clinton's watch.  

Blacks favor school choice much more than do whites.  Just search for Casey Lartigue's name here:
http://www.cato.org/research/education/choice.html
Educational freedom seems to be of unusual interest to FSP participants.

By the way, I am roughly half black.  At the beginning we were overrepresented in the FSP, though I don't know about now.  Can't ask these prickly libertarians for demographic data. ;)
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CaptiousDuality

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By the way, I am roughly half black.  At the beginning we were overrepresented in the FSP, though I don't know about now.  Can't ask these prickly libertarians for demographic data.

*grins at the "roughly"* How did you manage to avoid multiples of 2? ;)

I'm unusually interested in educational freedom and can't promote Unschooling enough to people I find who are wary to send their kids to public school.
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lloydbob1

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Larry Elder, Walter Williams, Richard Boddie

Thomas Sowell also

Tracy

I've been reading his work for 30 years.  Thomas Sowell is a Free Market Economist, but, a Conservative Republican, not libertarian in areas other than economics.
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Steve

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By the way, I am roughly half black.  At the beginning we were overrepresented in the FSP, though I don't know about now.  Can't ask these prickly libertarians for demographic data.

*grins at the "roughly"* How did you manage to avoid multiples of 2? ;)

I'm an engineer, not a mathematician: close enough is good enough for us.  Say from the past 5 generations (32 great-great-great grandparents) 11 were black, 11 were white, 10 american indian.  I could reasonably say that I'm 1/3 black, white, and indian.  In actual fact, I'm something like 1/8 indian, so I'm "roughly half black".  You can see a picture of me here last week harranging Russians about Ayn Rand and libertarianism:
http://www.amcorners.ru/acr/site.asp?ID=38&lang=eng
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I'm unusually interested in educational freedom and can't promote Unschooling enough to people I find who are wary to send their kids to public school.
Be sure to hook up with Jean and the educational freedom communities:
http://www.freestateproject.org/getinvolved/liaisons/index.jsp
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Steve

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Right now, all the black libertarians I know of are really soft-spoken gentlemen.  We need someone with Al Sharpton's wit and Walter Williams's politics.

It may take years before we find someone like that, but I think that's the only thing that will work./quote]
Brother Boddie asks that I inform you that "there already is that merger (with ethics, humor and chrisma )".  Somehow he forgot modesty. ;)
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CaptiousDuality

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I'm an engineer, not a mathematician: close enough is good enough for us.  Say from the past 5 generations (32 great-great-great grandparents) 11 were black, 11 were white, 10 american indian.  I could reasonably say that I'm 1/3 black, white, and indian.  In actual fact, I'm something like 1/8 indian, so I'm "roughly half black".

Heh. I'm just kidding. I personally ususally add the disclaimer that I'm adopted but came with a sheet like a Cabbage Patch Kid so while I think what the sheet is said is true and have no reason to believe otherwise it could all be filthy lies! =) My roommates have even hypothesizes that I'm not actually human but a projection from another dimension. lol!

There's no way for me to tell w/o knowing who got w/ who so I'd go w/ roughly half too. =)

here last week harranging Russians about Ayn Rand and libertarianism

LOL. You're a good looking guy btw. ;) One thing I love about libertarian communities is they're full of intelligent, mentally active, good looking men! lol

Thanks for the link to the educational freedom. I'll check that out!
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