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Author Topic: Anarchy and FSP together???  (Read 28683 times)

BillG

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Re:Anarchy and FSP together???
« Reply #30 on: March 04, 2004, 03:02:57 pm »

Quote
I am in agreement that corporations have excessive government-granted priveledges.  I am deeply troubled at how corporations have grafted themselves into the government, and am increasingly skeptical of the wisdom of their limited-liability protections.  On the other hand, I am even more skeptical of attempts to apply band-aid solutions by regulating these businesses, which essentially grafts them even more into government.  These band-aids are often what I see proposed by Greens and other lefties, motivated more by a desire to harness the powers of these corporations for the benefit of big government than to end the evil perpetrated by them

who specifically is arguing for regulation of corporations for the benefit of big government here? can you cite an example?
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Karl

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Re:Anarchy and FSP together???
« Reply #31 on: March 04, 2004, 03:43:48 pm »

who specifically is arguing for regulation of corporations for the benefit of big government here? can you cite an example?

Not even Hillary Clinton admits her Marxist dreams.
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BillG

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Re:Anarchy and FSP together???
« Reply #32 on: March 04, 2004, 03:59:29 pm »

who specifically is arguing for regulation of corporations for the benefit of big government here? can you cite an example?

Not even Hillary Clinton admits her Marxist dreams.

yet, Bill O'Reilly still has the guts to makes the charge...
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Karl

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Re:Anarchy and FSP together???
« Reply #33 on: March 04, 2004, 04:27:19 pm »

who specifically is arguing for regulation of corporations for the benefit of big government here? can you cite an example?

Not even Hillary Clinton admits her Marxist dreams.

yet, Bill O'Reilly still has the guts to makes the charge...

BillG, I do not know why you expect me show you any respect.  I gave you that opportunity, as have many others.  In past discussions, you have repeatedly ignored those who pointed out critical flaws in your "geo-lib" program, refusing to explore the issues meaningfully, or even talking about how to you might mitigate those flaws, which were self-evident by all but you.  In doing so, you've demonstrated complete disrespect for those who were discussing the matter with you, and insulted their intelligence repeatedly.  By now you must agree that your "geo-lib" program has not sold well among free staters, nor has it attracted any more than a couple new members, if that.  Your denial of this fact is another insult to my intelligence.

Your apparent inability to move on from trying to sell your whole "geo-lib" program is very disheartening.  I know we agree on some things, like the LVT.  I'm interested in knowing how your efforts are going there, and what you thought the best way to sell the LVT tax to policymakers was.  An LVT shift is a major big deal for a city the size of Concord or Manchester, and your experience in the matter could benefit other activists.  But if you try to sell it along with your "citiziens dividend" and "economic scarcity rent" your audience and your effectiveness, is going to be small indeed.

I'm not asking you to give up your geo-lib ideas, I'm asking you to stop treating your fellow FSP members like morons, and to work on those topics where there is more agreement.  Until you do, just call me O'Reilly, because that will be all you deserve from me.
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Tracy Saboe

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Re:Anarchy and FSP together???
« Reply #34 on: March 04, 2004, 04:41:29 pm »

If you have no property right, it's impossible to give to charity. It's impossible to help others if I can't own anything with which to help them.

Property rights evolved before government. They already existed prior to government.  The only way to force people not to claim property is which government force.

Look at Communist Russia. Look how many people had to be murdered and killed for their private-property free utopia. And they still didn't get it.

How can you believe the notion that you can't own property, and yet expect me to leave your roof in tact. After all, if you don't own, it. I can use it. You have no right to tell me to stop dismanteling it, or taking it. It's not yours.

TRacy
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We agree that "Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. Never for a moment should it be left to irresponsible action." --George Washington

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BillG

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Re:Anarchy and FSP together???
« Reply #35 on: March 04, 2004, 05:49:43 pm »

who specifically is arguing for regulation of corporations for the benefit of big government here? can you cite an example?

Not even Hillary Clinton admits her Marxist dreams.

yet, Bill O'Reilly still has the guts to makes the charge...

BillG, I do not know why you expect me show you any respect.  I gave you that opportunity, as have many others.  In past discussions, you have repeatedly ignored those who pointed out critical flaws in your "geo-lib" program, refusing to explore the issues meaningfully, or even talking about how to you might mitigate those flaws, which were self-evident by all but you.  In doing so, you've demonstrated complete disrespect for those who were discussing the matter with you, and insulted their intelligence repeatedly.  By now you must agree that your "geo-lib" program has not sold well among free staters, nor has it attracted any more than a couple new members, if that.  Your denial of this fact is another insult to my intelligence.

Your apparent inability to move on from trying to sell your whole "geo-lib" program is very disheartening.  I know we agree on some things, like the LVT.  I'm interested in knowing how your efforts are going there, and what you thought the best way to sell the LVT tax to policymakers was.  An LVT shift is a major big deal for a city the size of Concord or Manchester, and your experience in the matter could benefit other activists.  But if you try to sell it along with your "citiziens dividend" and "economic scarcity rent" your audience and your effectiveness, is going to be small indeed.

I'm not asking you to give up your geo-lib ideas, I'm asking you to stop treating your fellow FSP members like morons, and to work on those topics where there is more agreement.  Until you do, just call me O'Reilly, because that will be all you deserve from me.

let me see if I understand this...so are you saying that the Hillary comment wasn't another one of your smear jobs in an area of the forums where I can't defend my ideas after asking a simple forthright question?

where sir is your sense of fairness?
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DualBerettas

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Re:Anarchy and FSP together???
« Reply #36 on: March 04, 2004, 06:27:22 pm »

What the hell is the deal with all this ugly individualism?  All of these items, save maybe "gun control," symbolize either people or ideas that at one point or another have struggled to bring rights to people.  

Gun Control....kills people.  Wanting to get rid of gun control is a struggle to bring the right of self defense to people...not just your tax paid politicians who have tax paid bodyguards with their guns and what not.

Food for thought

Gun Control does NOT AFFECT
Politicians = see reason above
Govt. = they make the laws and exempt themselves
Military = Duh
Police = they are exempt; not to mention in some areas where you can't carry a gun for your own protection yet 12 swat guys with submachine guns can defend themselves against 1 guy
Criminals = since by definition, they break the law, and if they don't care about the laws that say do NOT MURDER, RAPE, or ROB, etc.they why would they care about some dumb gun control law or laws or a no guns sign?

So if none of them are affected by gun control...who is left....?

US!  the law abiding citizen, the good guys!

Hope this helps.
DB

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« Last Edit: March 04, 2004, 06:30:15 pm by DualBerettas »
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ebola

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Re:Anarchy and FSP together???
« Reply #37 on: March 05, 2004, 04:33:00 am »

Greetings.
I, too, like protovack, am an anarchist.  You may also call me a libertarian socialist, for they are synonymous. (sorry protovack, the terminology is taken. :) ).

A few of you seem to be rather mystified as to how socialism and anarchism could coexist let-alone flourish together.  I'll try to break it down here.
there are two main varients which I am familiar with, the first of which being mutualism.  Mutualism is basically market-socialism in a stateless context.  Workers form cooperatives on the basis of mutual use of a single factory or perhaps they organize themselves at an even higher level.  These workers own the factory and the returns from the sales of all their products.  The self-manage democratically.  Rights to interest and rent are generally unrecognized though there would exist mutualist banks, a type of shared community bank which would facilitate investment in new capital (without charging interest).

And then there are the infamous anarcho-communists with whom I am most sympathetic.  Would should first of all remember that communism is necessarily anarchic, but not vice versa.  They advocate free access to the means of production and a "gift-economy" whereby goods are shared freely and produced according to need.  Common hesitations to anarcho-communism include:

but what about shit jobs:  there are a couple solutions.  My favorite idea is that they would be distributed equally throughout society.  what if everyone spend like an hour a week picking trash up off the streets?

how would people decide how much to produce:
simple...if goods are flying of the "store"-shelves faster than they are produced, the producers work within their means to make more.  In the long term, they will communicate with other groups of workers that they need more workers or communicate with architects and construction workers that a new factory should be built.  If it turns out that a certain type of good is scarce, that good can be rationed to those who want it (enforcement of the rationing being extremely decentralized) or perhaps it could be the responsibility of those who desire such goods to work with those who have the necessary knowledge to produce them themselves.  Solving problems of overproduction would be rather simple.  Workers stop making stuff. :)

anywho, for a primer on anarchism, id read this lengthy FAQ which puts things more eloquently than I ever could:

http://www.infoshop.org/faq/index.html

for anarchist writers, I would definitely suggest Kropotkin.

As for the free state project, I am definitely intrigued and wish you all luck although I think the lion's share of repression is exerted by the federal government working in conjunction with the interests of capital.

ebola
np: venetian snares
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Eddie Willers

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Re:Anarchy and FSP together???
« Reply #38 on: March 05, 2004, 05:40:27 am »

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I'm more of a libertarian-socialist. 

Sounds like you belong to the Libertarian National Socialist Green Party - aka "Green Nazis". They even have a website:

http://www.nazi.org/

I kid everybody not. The only difference is they usurp a whole flock of terms, and corrupt them into simple Naziism. Oh, and the swastika backgrounds are green instead of red.

Quote
  Mutualism is basically market-socialism in a stateless context.  Workers form cooperatives on the basis of mutual use of a single factory or perhaps they organize themselves at an even higher level.  These workers own the factory and the returns from the sales of all their products. 

This is an example of a parasitic philosophy. It depends on capitalism to get things started, then takes over and redistributes the profits in a different manner. There's a term for it, but the name escapes me at the moment.

It's all the same BS that socialists want.

As far as you guys being sufficiently satisfied with roof/food/ leisure activities, that is fine as far as it goes. **I** am not satisfied with such. Why not just get some Soma, and go to a feelie? ("Brave New World") and be done with it?

I'm sure a job at McDonalds will give you enough mental stimulation - not to mention nourishing food - to get you through the day.

By the way, what the heck is a "geo libertarian"?

Eddie
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thrivetacobell

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Re:Anarchy and FSP together???
« Reply #39 on: March 05, 2004, 06:03:51 am »

Man, I just can't get the "Libertarian socialist" thing.

How could one maintain a sense of  individual freedom and unrestricted Liberty while being told to pick up trash on the streets for an hour every week?

Oh, gee, a gift economy? I can't wait to make a gift of everything i've earned in life for the sake of the people.

So you think that the lions share of repression is exerted by the federal government working in conjunction with the interests of capital? So you intend to solve this by the people taking over the federal government, so the people are working in the interests of capital? Or maybe it would be better solved by destroying capital?

Your position seems w...  ahh... thought out, but how can you justify it? How?
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thrivetacobell

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Re:Anarchy and FSP together???
« Reply #40 on: March 05, 2004, 06:16:48 am »

LOL!

http://www.nazi.org/


 Great link, Eddie Willers, for the Libertarian National Socialist Green Party. I feel like I just went on a trip to Europe!
« Last Edit: March 05, 2004, 06:56:17 am by thrivetacobell »
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FTL_Ian

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Re:Anarchy and FSP together???
« Reply #41 on: March 05, 2004, 06:26:26 am »

Quote
shit jobs: they would be distributed equally throughout society

Anarchy means "without rule".  That sure as hell sounds like rule to me.

Quote
communism is necessarily anarchic

 ??? ??? ??? WTF?

Okay, let's play "Make up our own definitions!"!  Sorry "comrade", but communism has nothing to do with anarchy, and everything to do with control by an elite state.

Sieg Heil!
Ian
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Jhogun

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Re:Anarchy and FSP together???
« Reply #42 on: March 05, 2004, 08:05:08 am »

You may also call me a libertarian socialist, for they are synonymous. (sorry protovack, the terminology is taken. :) ).

No, they are mutually exclusive.

Libertarianism means free markets, freedom of association, and little to no government.

Socialism means control of the market and means of production by government.
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thrivetacobell

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Re:Anarchy and FSP together???
« Reply #43 on: March 05, 2004, 08:09:03 am »

I think ebola's idea of libertarian socialism implies that the people, not the government, will control production and distribution.

Isn't that a pretty picture?
« Last Edit: March 05, 2004, 08:16:35 am by thrivetacobell »
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BillG

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Re:Anarchy and FSP together???
« Reply #44 on: March 05, 2004, 08:29:29 am »

I think ebola's idea of libertarian socialism implies that the people, not the government, will control production and distribution.

Isn't that a pretty picture?

there is a third way that proper balances equality and freedom...

here is a leading NC Libertarian Party's website who is a proponent

http://holisticpolitics.org

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