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Author Topic: Living well, as well as free!  (Read 5008 times)

Little Bit Farm

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Living well, as well as free!
« on: September 24, 2002, 01:07:48 pm »

Although I understand the reasons for choosing smaller states, I think the logic fails.  I really would love to commit to move into a state and do exactly what you folks are suggesting. However, I also want to enjoy where I live. I just don't think that being a slave to snow and ice, makes me anymore free than the freedom I'm losing by staying in my own state which I handpicked for the freedoms that it accords. For instance many of the states that are proposed have less freedom on issues than I currently have, and I get to freeze as well!  Oklahoma constitutionally guarantees me the right to homeschool my children. NONE of the states suggested do the same. Oklahoma not only has a right to carry law, but also has a population that is favorably disposed to firearms.  
    I am sorry, but I think that that you would be better off focussing on favorable current population attitudes, than actual state size.  The simple truth of the matter is that these people are going to be your partners in change.  More people in states with very conservative populations could make or break whether any actual change is brought about.  
     In addition, a state's current laws are very important too. Why move into a state where many laws will have to be altered, instead of fewer? This makes no sense, because obviously the state who has fewer invasive laws will also have more people favorable to smaller government! 20,000 new people are going to have a much greater effect in a state where much of the population is conservative anyway!
    I also think that growing season is a major concern, as I am a conservative homesteader and will not move anyplace that I cannot grow a crop. I would rather continue affecting my current state where I can grow a crop!!! There is something called living free as well as becoming free. I believe that the government cannot give me rights nor take them away. My rights are natural. I possess them no matter what.  I chose this state on the basis of being able to pursue my happiness with less attempted interference.  There are a lot of people here just like me.
   This is a great Idea, but you have to realize what you are asking people to do. People must raise their families in these states BEFORE your changes are made. They must start businesses. They must feed their families! They must find warm shelter.  
     Honestly, I think we need two of these FSP project going. one for the North and one for the South. I would bett the Southern one could get 40,000, before the Northern one got 20,000.

Little bit farm
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schm00

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Re:Living well, as well as free!
« Reply #1 on: September 24, 2002, 02:16:22 pm »

I think you may be missing the original point of the the project, which IMO is based upon the voting population numbers by state, and the effect that 20,000 people could have upon such a population.

While you raise good points, I believe that some of them are taken into consideration on Jasons State Data web pages, which attempt to incorporate some of the things you described into an algorithm that can show the respective impact they have upon the FSP's choice.

I also think that by breaking the FSP into two projects would precipitate the fall of the project - the goal is to move as many people as possible into one state to cause a definite ripple in that states political makeup, and I really doubt whether the numbers could be achieved in two seperate states.
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cathleeninsc

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Re:Living well, as well as free!
« Reply #2 on: September 24, 2002, 03:19:43 pm »

While I believe the math is important, little bit farm has made some good points. If it is true that a warm state would apeal to more people then how many activists would we need for some southern or southwestern state?

And I also agree that we will not get too many people to join who have satisfactorily made their own pocket of freedom already.

Cathleen in SC




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JasonPSorens

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Re:Living well, as well as free!
« Reply #3 on: September 24, 2002, 08:19:06 pm »

Oklahoma may have some freedoms, but no state today has a wide degree of freedom and a state government willing to tackle the issue of restoring true federalism to the states.  That's why voting population is so critical.  If we moved to Oklahoma, we would be a drop in the bucket: we wouldn't be able to privatise schools, repeal drug and gun laws, repeal zoning and land planning regulations, deregulate utilities, and so on.  We'd probably just help out the Republicans a little bit, which they don't really need in OK anyway. ;)

I suggest you read up on our state reports:
http://freestateproject.org/statereports.htm
Most of the states we're considering are very pleasant places to live!  They have 4 seasons, they do in fact have long growing seasons & lots of farms, the natives are pro-liberty, they have an independent spirit, they have enjoyable winter sports and vacation spots, etc.
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"Educate your children, educate yourselves, in the love for the freedom of others, for only in this way will your own freedom not be a gratuitous gift from fate. You will be aware of its worth and will have the courage to defend it." --Joaquim Nabuco (1883), Abolitionism

Little Bit Farm

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Re:Living well, as well as free!
« Reply #4 on: September 25, 2002, 04:15:47 pm »

I understand the original goal of this project perfectly. However my point is, that there is more to  being able to alter a states political makeup than simple population. Oklahoma for instance is one of the top ten most libertarian states according to  Republican Liberty Caucus as listed in another thread. All representatives from this state are, according to their organization, as either libertarian or enterpriser except for one statist democrat.   The actual state government however is controlled narrowly by necessarily conservative Democrats. 20,000 freedom loving voters could make a large difference here, especially in the right counties.  I understand that there are some freedom loving states on your list. The problem I have is that many of them require long months of living in snow and Ice. The same goal could be achieved in a larger state, if the state chosen was filled already freedom loving people.  
   In addition, the only two acceptable states when it comes to homeschooling on the projected list is Idaho and Alaska, bot of whick have short growing seasons and long winters. Alaska also has six months of darkness, which is put simply, DEPRESSING. I have no desire to sit under flourescent lights as recreation!

Little Bit farm
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JasonPSorens

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Re:Living well, as well as free!
« Reply #5 on: September 25, 2002, 05:07:21 pm »


I understand the original goal of this project perfectly. However my point is, that there is more to  being able to alter a states political makeup than simple population.


Indeed, that's the reason we have something like 25 factors on the State Data page, plus other information in the state reports.  However, population is the "sine qua non": if we don't pick a state with population below a certain level, we won't have a chance.  It's simple mathematics.  If we could get about 80,000 members, then Oklahoma would become a viable choice, but it's going to be an uphill struggle to get even 20,000, I think.

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The problem I have is that many of them require long months of living in snow and Ice.


No, not at all...Check out our climate report:
http://freestateproject.org/climate.htm
and
http://freestateproject.org/climateaddendum.htm
Idaho and parts of Montana are quite as warm as Oklahoma, and so is Delaware.  I lived in Connecticut for a few years and visited Vermont, New Hampshire, and Maine in wintertime.  Even as a born and bred Southerner, I had no problem there.  It snows a lot, but there are actually probably fewer days of bitter cold and wind in New England than there are in parts of Oklahoma.  The reason is that it stays somewhat cloudy in winter, which prevents the weather phenomenon (I don't know the name of it) that creates extreme cold in winter.

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The same goal could be achieved in a larger state, if the state chosen was filled already freedom loving people.


But Oklahoma is hardly a libertarian paradise.  No state is.  That's why we have to concentrate our numbers.  Very few people would vote for privatising the school system - unless they heard intelligent, respected people from all walks of life arguing the position as the only reasonable one every day.  That's the situation we're trying to create, and we can only do it in a small state where our activists will have maximum impact.

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In addition, the only two acceptable states when it comes to homeschooling on the projected list is Idaho and Alaska, bot of whick have short growing seasons and long winters.


Hm, why do you say they're the only acceptable ones?  A lot of the states we're considering (Montana, Wyoming, Delaware) require nothing more than parental notification, which is not ideal but is not terribly burdensome either.  Also, Idaho has a fairly warm climate and short winters.  (It can get cold in high elevations though!)  The summers there are scorchingly hot, just as hot as any in Houston, Texas.  That's a minus in my book; extreme heat is harder for me to deal with than extreme cold.
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"Educate your children, educate yourselves, in the love for the freedom of others, for only in this way will your own freedom not be a gratuitous gift from fate. You will be aware of its worth and will have the courage to defend it." --Joaquim Nabuco (1883), Abolitionism

amyday

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Re:Living well, as well as free!
« Reply #6 on: September 25, 2002, 10:10:46 pm »


Alaska also has six months of darkness, which is put simply, DEPRESSING. I have no desire to sit under flourescent lights as recreation!

Little Bit farm


That is not true. In anchorage they do not have even one day of darkness.
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