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Author Topic: "requesting some enlightenment..."  (Read 15926 times)

Reaper

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Re:"requesting some enlightenment..."
« Reply #30 on: August 18, 2003, 08:31:34 pm »

Oh, and by the way . . .

Welcome to the forum!    :)
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Reaper
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"If we turn from battle because there is little hope of victory, where then would valor be?  Let it ever be the goal that stirs us, not the odds."

LeopardPM

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Re:"requesting some enlightenment..."
« Reply #31 on: August 18, 2003, 09:07:01 pm »

(supports the right of Reaper to be a Heartless Ghoul)
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empathyonthefence

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Re:"requesting some enlightenment..."
« Reply #32 on: August 18, 2003, 09:55:55 pm »

I am  not sure where I stand with abortions... I wouldnt like to see it happen, but if the women, girl, lady, female or what ever they might want to be called (;D) wants to they can since it is there own body.  I guess it is a hard line to discuss....

Though a question many people in this forum states " As long as it doesnt effect another person then I am find with it" Well having an aborition is killing someone so isnt it effecting another human being?  So in fact this would turn what people say around?  Bah who knows

Scott

but you can't really say for sure that it's a living human being, or at which point it becomes one, so it can't be classified as murder.
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LeopardPM

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Re:"requesting some enlightenment..."
« Reply #33 on: August 19, 2003, 01:18:04 am »

the problem is that there are plenty of different opions, all very logical and believable, as to when exactly human life begins - and since murder  is defined as the willful taking of anothers life without there consent - we need an exact line drawn... it will never happen to everyones satisfaction... this is why I stay out of the abortion debate... there is no 'truth'

michael
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empathyonthefence

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Re:"requesting some enlightenment..."
« Reply #34 on: August 19, 2003, 09:07:26 am »

the problem is that there are plenty of different opions, all very logical and believable, as to when exactly human life begins - and since murder  is defined as the willful taking of anothers life without there consent - we need an exact line drawn... it will never happen to everyones satisfaction... this is why I stay out of the abortion debate... there is no 'truth'

michael

very true, very true...this is also why unwanted pregnancies should be avoided as much as possible, because then it doesn't come to this.
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*sabrina*
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.jacques-yves cousteau.

MajesticLeo

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Re:"requesting some enlightenment..."
« Reply #35 on: August 19, 2003, 09:21:15 am »


mmm, oh yeah...nothin' tastes better than torture victims all cooked up in antibiotics and hormones, with just a dash of their own fecal matter for seasoning. clog my arteries, please!

sorry, couldn't resist.

Hmmm, think you have me confused with Zack's posts about cannabalism.  But then your statement applies to the plants you eat too.   ;D

No need to be sorry, I asked for it.   :)
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Scott ISMP

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Re:"requesting some enlightenment..."
« Reply #36 on: August 19, 2003, 12:08:47 pm »

I am  not sure where I stand with abortions... I wouldnt like to see it happen, but if the women, girl, lady, female or what ever they might want to be called (;D) wants to they can since it is there own body.  I guess it is a hard line to discuss....

Though a question many people in this forum states " As long as it doesnt effect another person then I am find with it" Well having an aborition is killing someone so isnt it effecting another human being?  So in fact this would turn what people say around?  Bah who knows

Scott

but you can't really say for sure that it's a living human being, or at which point it becomes one, so it can't be classified as murder.

Though when it is in the mother after 20 days of being in there it starts to have a heart beat.  So that would be considered a living human being....

I really cant say weather I am for or not for abortion.  I hate seeing abortion, but what right do I have to say she cant do it?  


Scott
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SN Porc

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Re:"requesting some enlightenment..."
« Reply #37 on: August 19, 2003, 12:21:56 pm »

Might as well get slammed, but the truths the truth.

A tick has a heartbeat. And all the microbiotic organisms in your body are alive. Some, even most, are beneficial. As a matter of fact there are more bacteria in your mouth than the population of the entire earth, human population that is.
Almost all of these are beneficial, except the ones that turned traitor when man started eating refined sugar.

Still, they are parasites, just like a fetus, unborn baby, whatever you want to call it. It isn't human until it can live totally independent of it's host. Until then it's absolutely up to the host organism as to whether they want to carry it full term or abort.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2003, 12:51:58 pm by SN Porc »
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Scott ISMP

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Re:"requesting some enlightenment..."
« Reply #38 on: August 19, 2003, 12:35:42 pm »

"isn't human until it can live totally independent of it's host"

Do you mean free from the host or can take care of it self?  A baby cant take care of it self at such a young age......

anyways I do agree with you I just hate the topic abortion.....  ;)


Scott
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LeopardPM

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Re:"requesting some enlightenment..."
« Reply #39 on: August 19, 2003, 12:45:22 pm »

Scott,
You have a 'right' as long as you believe that the abortion is considered murder... this is where the Anti-Abortionist put their efforts, and that same dividing line has an equal opposing force in the Pro-Abortionist - where that exact line is drawn of murder will continue to move, forward and back depending on the current views of society in general...

If you happen to believe that a 'heartbeat' in a fetus constitutes a human being then to abort such a being IS murder in your view, some people claim that our definition for life also defines death (or pre-life) in that the medical establishment chooses to define death as brain-death so that would infer that once a fetus's brain begins to exude brainwaves et al it is considered an alive human and thus it would be murder to abort once that point is reached.

Quote
very true, very true...this is also why unwanted pregnancies should be avoided as much as possible, because then it doesn't come to this.


yes, it would seem so, but the methods of trying to avoid unwanted pregnancies are varied and different.  It is wrong of any of these views to be 'forced' on others by government.  This is a societal problem and I say let the society deal with it in the free market of ideas.  Some will preach abstinence at their private schools and others will preach 'safe' sex practices, some may even preach that sex should start happing at 12 yrs old and should not be prevented through contraceptive use from procreation.  Though the last situation would probably be deplorable to both you and I, it must be allowed so that we can (as a society) find the correct, best choice.


michael
michael
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SN Porc

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Re:"requesting some enlightenment..."
« Reply #40 on: August 19, 2003, 12:54:33 pm »

Free from the host, without mechanical help.

Obviously, it needs to be cared for even after it can live independently.
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LeopardPM

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Re:"requesting some enlightenment..."
« Reply #41 on: August 19, 2003, 01:00:55 pm »

see, yet another opinion - this subject is awash in opinions but no real 'proof' - tis why I am leaving this discussion... there will be no consensous

michael
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anarchicluv

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Re:"requesting some enlightenment..."
« Reply #42 on: August 19, 2003, 07:02:51 pm »

see, yet another opinion - this subject is awash in opinions but no real 'proof' - tis why I am leaving this discussion... there will be no consensous

michael

I agree there are tons of opinions, and nary a fact.  I think one of the most interesting angles is that of when the spirit enters the body.  Some suggest that this happens at day 49.

The following is an excerpt from Dr. Rick Strassman's chapter summary of his book DMT: The Spirit Molecule:

A "DMT theory of pineal function" has great appeal, as many of the necessary ingredients and enzymes for its formation exist in remarkably high concentrations in the pineal. Building upon existing data, I present several scenarios in which the pineal may produce DMT instead of melatonin. I speculate about endogenous DMT's role in dreams, meditation, birth, near-death, and death. I suggest that the individual's life-force enters the body through the pineal at 49 days after conception, and leaves it through the pineal gland at death. This 49-day prenatal period corresponds to the first signs of fetal pineal tissue, the differentiation of the gonads into male and female, and how long it takes between the death of an individual and its soul's next rebirth according to the Tibetan Buddhist tradition. I suggest a meta-physical model in which biological, psychological, and spiritual drives or impulses all may exist in a dynamic tension within this spirit gland.

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empathyonthefence

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Re:"requesting some enlightenment..."
« Reply #43 on: August 20, 2003, 01:33:19 pm »


mmm, oh yeah...nothin' tastes better than torture victims all cooked up in antibiotics and hormones, with just a dash of their own fecal matter for seasoning. clog my arteries, please!

sorry, couldn't resist.

Hmmm, think you have me confused with Zack's posts about cannabalism.  But then your statement applies to the plants you eat too.   ;D

No need to be sorry, I asked for it.   :)

 :) actually, it doesn't apply (at least not all of it)....no antibiotics, hormones or cholesterol (artery-clogger found only in animal products) in my food. and while some of the veggies i eat (or products made with veggies from huge commercial farms) are grown with fertilizer, i mostly eat stuff from other people's gardens (who don't use that sort of fertilizer) because i know their origins.
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*sabrina*
"when one man has the opportunity to lead an extraordinary life, he has no right to keep it to himself."
.jacques-yves cousteau.

freedomroad

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Re:"requesting some enlightenment..."
« Reply #44 on: August 21, 2003, 01:50:29 am »

Might as well get slammed, but the truths the truth.

A tick has a heartbeat. And all the microbiotic organisms in your body are alive. Some, even most, are beneficial. As a matter of fact there are more bacteria in your mouth than the population of the entire earth, human population that is.
Almost all of these are beneficial, except the ones that turned traitor when man started eating refined sugar.

Still, they are parasites, just like a fetus, unborn baby, whatever you want to call it. It isn't human until it can live totally independent of it's host. Until then it's absolutely up to the host organism as to whether they want to carry it full term or abort.
 

Thank you.  While I disagree with you, you do sound like one of the most important people to many libertarians, Ayn Rand.  She was all for abortion rights as are the majority of libertarians today (at least the LP is).

Oh well.  Back to a real topic.  Hey empathyonthefence.  You make a fine member of the FSP.   Keep up all of the great debating.

About the poor...
What is a poor person?  Is it a person that has be educated by the government, had bad parents, or refuses to work 80+ hours a week?  I do not know.  All I know is that I work 2 jobs, go to school full time, and keep close connections with several members from my family that I can always fall back on.  

The FSP does not want to get rid of everything.  We only want to reduce government by 2/3s to 3/4s.  There will still be plenty of room for social programs, like government cops (for those that cannot afford to buy their own Army) and government roads (for those that cannot afford to buy up or make their own).
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