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Author Topic: Noob from Louisiana  (Read 9209 times)

Denis Goddard

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Re: Noob from Louisiana
« Reply #15 on: August 24, 2011, 04:43:05 pm »

Denis, exactly what kind of attitude should we take to someone who is working for an organization that enslaves, tortures, and kills?
Do you pay any taxes? Any at all?

just curious.


No wait, I'm not. It's not worth the time to trollbait you.

1212jtraceur

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Re: Noob from Louisiana
« Reply #16 on: August 24, 2011, 06:14:11 pm »

That paper really doesn't have many/any logical arguments.  The author just makes assertions, apparently supported by nothing more than his own opinion.  He even asserts that it would be acceptable to work as a concentration camp guard, torturing and murdering innocents, as long as you allow one prisoner to escape, who otherwise would not have.  He also asserts that he won't find fault with the imperialistic wars the US has engaged in because, "I take the position that right or wrong, my own country is always right."

This is hardly a paper that any legitimate libertarian, or anyone who is a liberty lover at all, should be using for support of an argument.

... I'm pretty sure that bit about his own country always being right was a joke. See also notes 2 ("This only applies to unjust governments, such as those I will never visit or reside in. As to the ones I will live in, or tour, I consider them all justified, for purposes of this paper.") and 4 ("However, so as to not run afoul of the law, I am confining the scope of this paper to governments that by all accounts are illegitimate, such as those of North Korea, Cuba, Nazi Germany and the USSR. When specific Americans are named in the text, such as Alan Greenspan, Barbra Streisand, this must be interpreted as applying, only, to members of the aforesaid countries, e.g., to their equivalents in those nations.").

As for the rest of your comment: Block seems to be merely trying to find a way to morally justify interaction with the state, on the grounds that one can advance the cause of liberty even if they interact with the state. If this were not the case, most of us here on the forums (I imagine), would be behaving immorally in some way or another, by living the ways that we do. Yes, it does lead to some unpleasant conclusions, like the example of the concentration camp guard, but Block does claim that such a guard would still be liable for all of the aggression he did commit, even if his employment resulted in less aggression overall. This treatment is similar to Rothbard's treatment of "lifeboat situations".
« Last Edit: August 24, 2011, 06:28:16 pm by 1212jtraceur »
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-David

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Re: Noob from Louisiana
« Reply #17 on: August 24, 2011, 07:05:29 pm »

Denis, exactly what kind of attitude should we take to someone who is working for an organization that enslaves, tortures, and kills?
Do you pay any taxes? Any at all?

just curious.


No wait, I'm not. It's not worth the time to trollbait you.

Maybe it would be good to point out that I work for a veteran-owned small business and I provide IT support to the Veterans Health Administration.  Yeah, it's still part of the evil empire but I have no problem sleeping at night knowing I'm helping my brothers and sisters.

Thanks for all the good info - it wasn't my intention to start something.
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MaineShark

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Re: Noob from Louisiana
« Reply #18 on: August 24, 2011, 08:02:47 pm »

Denis, exactly what kind of attitude should we take to someone who is working for an organization that enslaves, tortures, and kills?
Do you pay any taxes? Any at all?

just curious.

Paying taxes under threat of violence is not the same as voluntarily participating.  If it were, then the victims of mugging would be responsible when the mugger goes and buys a knife and stabs his next victim.

As for the rest of your comment: Block seems to be merely trying to find a way to morally justify interaction with the state, on the grounds that one can advance the cause of liberty even if they interact with the state. If this were not the case, most of us here on the forums (I imagine), would be behaving immorally in some way or another, by living the ways that we do.

No, working for the government isn't mere "interaction."  It's voluntary advancement of the State.

Yes, it does lead to some unpleasant conclusions, like the example of the concentration camp guard, but Block does claim that such a guard would still be liable for all of the aggression he did commit, even if his employment resulted in less aggression overall. This treatment is similar to Rothbard's treatment of "lifeboat situations".

I don't see how there's any similarity.  Rothbard asserts that absolute rights are not voided, even by difficult situations.  Block is asserting that, if the situation is difficult, you can violate others' rights at will...

Joe
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MS Libertarian

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Re: Noob from Louisiana
« Reply #19 on: August 24, 2011, 08:45:10 pm »

The man isn't in the IRS... There are parts of the US government that arn't bad.  If u want to change the government you have to participate.
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Denis Goddard

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Re: Noob from Louisiana
« Reply #20 on: August 24, 2011, 09:17:46 pm »

The man isn't in the IRS... There are parts of the US government that arn't bad.  If u want to change the government you have to participate.
I know that and you know that. The online troll 'MaineShark' does not.
I have him on Ignore; you can, too! ;)

MS Libertarian

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Re: Noob from Louisiana
« Reply #21 on: August 24, 2011, 09:47:13 pm »

The man isn't in the IRS... There are parts of the US government that arn't bad.  If u want to change the government you have to participate.
I know that and you know that. The online troll 'MaineShark' does not.
I have him on Ignore; you can, too! ;)
I don't like to ignore... he might say something good
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Porcsmouth

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Re: Noob from Louisiana
« Reply #22 on: August 24, 2011, 11:18:44 pm »

Denis, Maineshark made a bunch of valid points that, frankly, I couldn't have put better myself. Neither of us is a troll, we just disagree with you. In fact, judging by your responses, *you* are the troll. You demonstrate the same contempt for views outside your scope that your average Demopublican does.

Denis, exactly what kind of attitude should we take to someone who is working for an organization that enslaves, tortures, and kills?
Do you pay any taxes? Any at all?

just curious.


No wait, I'm not. It's not worth the time to trollbait you.

Maybe it would be good to point out that I work for a veteran-owned small business and I provide IT support to the Veterans Health Administration.  Yeah, it's still part of the evil empire but I have no problem sleeping at night knowing I'm helping my brothers and sisters.

Thanks for all the good info - it wasn't my intention to start something.

David, it would be one thing to compassionately try to help those retired murderers – many were likely duped into signing up and then kept in the military against their will – but to use stolen funds to do it? Sorry, but that should keep you up at night. Again, you seem like a nice guy and I'm not trying to attack you, but it wouldn't be right for this to go unaddressed.

The man isn't in the IRS... There are parts of the US government that arn't bad.  If u want to change the government you have to participate.

That's true. What David is doing is nowhere near as bad as working for the IRS. But you've hit on a key point: we don't want to change the government, we want to abolish it. Even if you are a minarchist, there is really no excuse for defending the imperial gov't in Washington.
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rossby

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Re: Noob from Louisiana
« Reply #23 on: August 25, 2011, 02:39:34 am »

The man isn't in the IRS... There are parts of the US government that arn't bad.

I used to live, work, and play around Washington D.C.

Name a few parts. Honestly, can't think of one. Though if we created the Department of Spider Solitaire Players, it'd be tough to complain that we weren't getting what we paid for.
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MS Libertarian

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Re: Noob from Louisiana
« Reply #24 on: August 25, 2011, 06:04:47 am »

The man isn't in the IRS... There are parts of the US government that arn't bad.

I used to live, work, and play around Washington D.C.

Name a few parts. Honestly, can't think of one. Though if we created the Department of Spider Solitaire Players, it'd be tough to complain that we weren't getting what we paid for.
Department of defense covers something that government is supposed to do, if minarchist.  Even if it is more like the department of imperialism.  Ron Paul "works" in government... to change it.
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Only Jedis should use the force!

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Porcsmouth

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Re: Noob from Louisiana
« Reply #25 on: August 25, 2011, 10:33:17 pm »

The man isn't in the IRS... There are parts of the US government that arn't bad.

I used to live, work, and play around Washington D.C.

Name a few parts. Honestly, can't think of one. Though if we created the Department of Spider Solitaire Players, it'd be tough to complain that we weren't getting what we paid for.

Me too. And agreed.
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MaineShark

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Re: Noob from Louisiana
« Reply #26 on: August 26, 2011, 11:23:29 am »

The man isn't in the IRS... There are parts of the US government that arn't bad.

Everything the US government does is funded by money obtained by mugging innocent people.  Ergo, everything they do is bad.

If u want to change the government you have to participate.

Not really.  Plenty of folks have made governmental change, without ever participating.  I'd suggest reading up on civil disobedience, bloody revolutions (not that I'm advocating such; just pointing out the fact that they do effect change), and agorism.

Folks like Goddard cannot imagine that anything but their own, preferred method of activism is of any use.  Amazingly enough, it always seems to be that the "perfect" method is also the one that involves the least personal risk of arrest, physical danger, or financial repercussions.  You'll note that he pretty much does nothing but troll, here.  He'll actually come up to me in person and act all friendly, and must be honestly shocked that I don't just write off his trolling.

In reality, liberty will only be won by a diverse approach.  Political change does not just "happen."  Politicians only feel the need to make changes, if the social stresses exist to push for change.  And the social stresses are created by those who work in the arenas outside politics.
http://forum.freestateproject.org/index.php?topic=24208.msg268688#msg268688
http://forum.freestateproject.org/index.php?topic=23612.msg265099#msg265099

Denis, Maineshark made a bunch of valid points that, frankly, I couldn't have put better myself. Neither of us is a troll, we just disagree with you. In fact, judging by your responses, *you* are the troll. You demonstrate the same contempt for views outside your scope that your average Demopublican does.

Whereas Goddard is actually an admitted troll.  And, if you go through his recent posts, you'll note that he does pretty much nothing but trolling and spamming.

Department of defense covers something that government is supposed to do, if minarchist.

Depends upon what you mean by "minarchist."  Even the Constitution, which is far from minarchist, does not support what the DoD does.

Ron Paul "works" in government... to change it.

Sure.  But, as I said before, folks are not going to be fully trusting of it, as a result.  There's always going to be that wall, as long as he's taking a Federal pay check.

Joe
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"An armed society is a polite society" - this does not mean that we are polite because we fear each other.

We are not civilized because we are armed; we are armed because we are civilized..

Uncle Walt

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Re: Noob from Louisiana
« Reply #27 on: August 26, 2011, 02:17:08 pm »

Of course, there's always Plato:  Those who are too smart to engage in politics are punished by being governed by those who are dumber.

 ;D
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Porcsmouth

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Re: Noob from Louisiana
« Reply #28 on: August 26, 2011, 03:58:31 pm »

Another great post, MaineShark. I should buy you a beer sometime.
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MS Libertarian

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Re: Noob from Louisiana
« Reply #29 on: August 26, 2011, 04:35:05 pm »

The man isn't in the IRS... There are parts of the US government that arn't bad.

Everything the US government does is funded by money obtained by mugging innocent people.  Ergo, everything they do is bad.

If u want to change the government you have to participate.

Not really.  Plenty of folks have made governmental change, without ever participating.  I'd suggest reading up on civil disobedience, bloody revolutions (not that I'm advocating such; just pointing out the fact that they do effect change), and agorism.

Folks like Goddard cannot imagine that anything but their own, preferred method of activism is of any use.  Amazingly enough, it always seems to be that the "perfect" method is also the one that involves the least personal risk of arrest, physical danger, or financial repercussions.  You'll note that he pretty much does nothing but troll, here.  He'll actually come up to me in person and act all friendly, and must be honestly shocked that I don't just write off his trolling.

In reality, liberty will only be won by a diverse approach.  Political change does not just "happen."  Politicians only feel the need to make changes, if the social stresses exist to push for change.  And the social stresses are created by those who work in the arenas outside politics.
http://forum.freestateproject.org/index.php?topic=24208.msg268688#msg268688
http://forum.freestateproject.org/index.php?topic=23612.msg265099#msg265099

Denis, Maineshark made a bunch of valid points that, frankly, I couldn't have put better myself. Neither of us is a troll, we just disagree with you. In fact, judging by your responses, *you* are the troll. You demonstrate the same contempt for views outside your scope that your average Demopublican does.

Whereas Goddard is actually an admitted troll.  And, if you go through his recent posts, you'll note that he does pretty much nothing but trolling and spamming.

Department of defense covers something that government is supposed to do, if minarchist.

Depends upon what you mean by "minarchist."  Even the Constitution, which is far from minarchist, does not support what the DoD does.

Ron Paul "works" in government... to change it.

Sure.  But, as I said before, folks are not going to be fully trusting of it, as a result.  There's always going to be that wall, as long as he's taking a Federal pay check.

Joe
I know when to admit someone is right over me... You are right on most everything, but by the DoD i mean actual Defense... not our Department of Imperialism... what we currently do is not minarchist.
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Only Jedis should use the force!

The Second Amendment is my gun permit.
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