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Author Topic: How many free staters are currently in Grafton vs. how many in Keene?  (Read 7645 times)

Dreepa

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Re: How many free staters are currently in Grafton vs. how many in Keene?
« Reply #15 on: March 20, 2011, 11:59:18 am »

Let say for example that 100% of the people told the FSP that they moved to NH (they don't)
and let's say that  100% updated it when they moved again( they don't)
then you would have the issue of privacy.
Some people don't want to be known as FSPers.
Some people are ok with being known as FSPers to some people but don't want it known they are FSPers in a certain town.


At this stage there are only a few towns/cities with large number of FSPers.
But I would say... don't just count FSPers....local liberty lovers (who will ALWAYS outnumber FSPers) would be just as important to count.

Move where you like and then get involved locally.


(also the FSP can barely get enough volunteers to run the website.... let alone start on new projects )
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K. Darien Freeheart

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Re: How many free staters are currently in Grafton vs. how many in Keene?
« Reply #16 on: March 21, 2011, 08:59:14 am »

Quote
Let say for example that 100% of the people told the FSP that they moved to NH (they don't)

In Grafton, I know of three people who live, reside and are active in the area who are NOT Free Staters (officially).

1.) One saw NH as his "haven" 15 years before the FSP happened.
2.) One is unhappy with the direction of the Free State Project, the adherence to "the count" and the decisions made by the FSP Inc. and chooses to revoke his status as a Free Stater, but is quite happy being a vocal anarchist/libertarian in the area.
3.) One I know was inspired by the movement of activists, but sees no reason to associate with the "Free State Project" because it means so many things. He moved - as did others. Some aren't following the kinds of activism that matters to him and he'd rather focus on the liberty community than the "Free Staters".

Quote
Some people are ok with being known as FSPers to some people but don't want it known they are FSPers in a certain town.

There's a divide. Some of the most VISIBLE people in Grafton (including elected officials) are members of the FSP PUBLICLY. Some people are not. Grafton has the whole "Free Town Project" stigma and even then, some people are iconoclastically Free Staters.

In Keene, I know of at least one person who is a Free Keeniac, a HELL of an activist and is a self-described "liberal". She's still a hell of an activist and a fun person to be around. :P
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Sovereign Curtis

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Re: How many free staters are currently in Grafton vs. how many in Keene?
« Reply #17 on: March 21, 2011, 02:40:09 pm »

In Keene, I know of at least one person who is a Free Keeniac, a HELL of an activist and is a self-described "liberal". She's still a hell of an activist and a fun person to be around. :P

What?!? Who?
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Jeff LaGrange

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Re: How many free staters are currently in Grafton vs. how many in Keene?
« Reply #18 on: March 21, 2011, 09:29:16 pm »

In Keene, I know of at least one person who is a Free Keeniac, a HELL of an activist and is a self-described "liberal". She's still a hell of an activist and a fun person to be around. :P

What?!? Who?

Someone just went to rut.
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"No nation however powerful, any more than an individual, can be unjust with impunity.  Sooner or later, public opinion, an instrument merely moral in the beginning, will find occasion physically to inflict its sentences on the unjust... The lesson is useful to the weak as well as the strong." --Thomas Jefferson to James Madison, 1804.

"It is the trade of lawyers to question everything, yield nothing, and talk by the hour." -  Thomas Jefferson

"Laws that forbid the carrying of arms...disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes...Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man."

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FTL_Ian

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Manch - Biggest city, great liberty-oriented social scene, the most movers, virtually invisible level of activism.
Grafton - Small town, 1 cop, not much of a public social scene, decent level of movers for a small town, good activism
Keene - Small city, great liberty-oriented social scene, decent amount of movers, good activism
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Denis Goddard

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Manch - Biggest city, great liberty-oriented social scene, the most movers, virtually invisible level of activism.
I would disagree strongly on this point.
Several of the 12 FSPers in the NH legislature live in Manchester. That speaks volumes to how much they've already influenced their neighbors & the Manchester community.

Maybe you should clarify: "not much media-centric activism"
That said, at least 1 libertarian (not an FSPer) has a show on Manchester TV: http://vimeo.com/channels/mpa
Two FSPers (Dan & Carol) used to have a show on MCAM. It would be great to see more!

MaineShark

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Manch - Biggest city, great liberty-oriented social scene, the most movers, virtually invisible level of activism.
I would disagree strongly on this point.
Several of the 12 FSPers in the NH legislature live in Manchester. That speaks volumes to how much they've already influenced their neighbors & the Manchester community.

Or, you know, they ran as Republicans, when the Democrats had pissed a bunch of folks off, and a huge fraction of Republicans got in, just by virtue of being non-Democrats.

Much as it's a good talking point, strategically-speaking, a dozen Freestaters did not get in by virtue of being Freestaters; they got in by virtue of being in the right place, at the right time, to get swept in.  Those planning actual strategy need to take that into account, and not assume that there is a real trendline there.

Joe
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freedomroad

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Manch - Biggest city, great liberty-oriented social scene, the most movers, virtually invisible level of activism.
I would disagree strongly on this point.
Several of the 12 FSPers in the NH legislature live in Manchester. That speaks volumes to how much they've already influenced their neighbors & the Manchester community.

Or, you know, they ran as Republicans, when the Democrats had pissed a bunch of folks off, and a huge fraction of Republicans got in, just by virtue of being non-Democrats.

Much as it's a good talking point, strategically-speaking, a dozen Freestaters did not get in by virtue of being Freestaters; they got in by virtue of being in the right place, at the right time, to get swept in.  Those planning actual strategy need to take that into account, and not assume that there is a real trendline there.

Joe

I can assure you that both the Democratic candidate (who wasn't reelected) and the GOP candidate that I helped the most in Manchester did far more campaigning and such (activism) than any of the pro-liberty campaigns I've never known of in Keene.  Spending 100+ hours over several months trying to get elected is activism whether the candidate wins or loses.  There is a lot of activism done by quite a few folks in Manchester.  And while campaigning and/or being a state rep is very visibly activism to the folks inside NH that relate to it, it typically isn't put on youtube videos so it's not very visible in that way.

I don't see how that relates to how the political wins blow in NH; although, you certainly do have a good point.

Additionally, just like in Keene, some FSPers in Manchester are very active doing stuff that gets lots of media attention because they run or help run statewide pro-liberty or nationwide liberty groups or campaigns.

Basically, I agree with Denis ;)
« Last Edit: May 12, 2011, 01:56:54 pm by LoveAndPeace »
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FTL_Ian

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Manch - Biggest city, great liberty-oriented social scene, the most movers, virtually invisible level of activism.
I would disagree strongly on this point.
Several of the 12 FSPers in the NH legislature live in Manchester. That speaks volumes to how much they've already influenced their neighbors & the Manchester community.

Maybe you should clarify: "not much media-centric activism"

I said "virtually invisible level of activism".  No blogs or activism-focused-media originate from Manchester, so whatever happens there might as well be in a vacuum.  Is there a Manchester liberty calendar?  Not that I'm aware of.  Freemanch.com never went anywhere and Manchfree.com is inactive.

If activism happens and no one promotes it, it's not "visible".  Therefore my statement was accurate.  Also, the politicians deserve big credit for what they've done, but they hid their affiliations and now after-the-fact some people have figured out what's up (like the article in the Seacoast paper about the Free Staters in Concord).

Every destination has growing to do in various areas and Manch could use some better promotion and more outreach like FIJA.  Of course, Manch is so big, they don't have to promote themselves to get new movers.  It's just sad not being able to tell anyone what sort of things there are to do in Manch besides party.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2011, 02:06:53 pm by FreeKeene.com's Ian »
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FTL_Ian

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Don't worry though, now that Dale has made the move to Manch, he'll be putting together a radio studio there, so Keene's media empire's tentacle will reach out and touch Manch.  Rumor has it the radio station will start again at some point as well, which is another Keene-inspired project.  Plus, Pete and Ademo will be starting a new "Liberty on Tour", this time around NH very soon and they will be doing outreach in various ways and encouraging activists to pick up the ball and keep the outreach going (like FIJA and Don't Take the Plea Deal) after Pete and Ademo leave.
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FTL_Ian

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The hardcores in Grafton drive 90 minutes just to do FIJA outreach, but I never hear of anything happening in Nashua - even with all the people in Manch.  Hopefully Pete and Ademo will be able to get Don't Take the Plea Deal outreach going there, as there is a district court in Manch.  So the only reason it's not happening is no one has bothered.  There are plenty of people up there.  If Keeniacs can do it 3 days a week, Manch could surely do one.

Apologies to the OP - I realize this was supposed to be Grafton vs. Keene.
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Denis Goddard

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I said "virtually invisible level of activism".  No blogs or activism-focused-media originate from Manchester, so whatever happens there might as well be in a vacuum.
Did you ever see the movie white men can't jump?

It's about actually making policy changes... not about looking good on YouTube

MaineShark

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I can assure you that both the Democratic candidate (who wasn't reelected) and the GOP candidate that I helped the most in Manchester did far more campaigning and such (activism) than any of the pro-liberty campaigns I've never known of in Keene.  Spending 100+ hours over several months trying to get elected is activism whether the candidate wins or loses.  There is a lot of activism done by quite a few folks in Manchester.  And while campaigning and/or being a state rep is very visibly activism to the folks inside NH that relate to it, it typically isn't put on youtube videos so it's not very visible in that way.

I don't see how that relates to how the political wins blow in NH; although, you certainly do have a good point.

Goddard asserted that, due to the level of activism in Manchester, they "influenced their neighbors" to vote for them, and that's why they won (ie, that their wins prove that their activism had an influence).  That's incorrect.  While I'm sure they picked up some votes, and maybe one or two actually won because of their campaigns, the actual reason the majority of them won was the shift due to the annoyance with the Democrats.

That doesn't mean watching the winds and running as the party most likely to win isn't a legitimate strategy.  But it does mean that using the wins as proof of the effectiveness of their activism, is not accurate.

They won, primarily, due to strategy, not as a result of activism.  It's great that it worked, but it doesn't prove anything, positive or negative, about the level of activism in Manchester.

And, while I'm aware of activism going on in Manchester, it's a large city, so the per-capita "rate" of activism is low.  Keene is a city, but it isn't a large city, and there are a lot of activists there, so the rate is higher than in Manchester.  Concord sees a lot of activism, but most of the folks engaging in activism in Concord are visiting for the purpose, not living there, so if we're looking at the activism rate relative to where folks live, Concord doesn't score all that highly.

Grafton probably has the highest rate of activism, just because it's such a small town.  We have some great folks here, but it would be foolish to claim that the ease of influence doesn't come into play, and that's perfectly legitimate strategy.  I mean, for years, 100% of the police force had been influenced to be, not perfect, but one of the least-oppressive police forces in all of NH.  That's easier to do when "the police force" consists of Merle, the police chief, and that's it.  Add even one other cop, and now the same amount of work influencing the police force is only enough to get you 50%, so you have to up the effort, to get the same result.

Joe
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MaineShark

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I said "virtually invisible level of activism".  No blogs or activism-focused-media originate from Manchester, so whatever happens there might as well be in a vacuum.
Did you ever see the movie white men can't jump?

It's about actually making policy changes... not about looking good on YouTube

No, it's about liberty.  While policy changes are one way liberty can be enhanced, they are not the only way.  Maybe not even the primary way.  Just one technique among many.  If the cops arrest 10% fewer individuals because a law was repealed, that's great.  If the cops arrest 10% fewer individuals because the courts are clogged up by folks who refuse to take plea deals, that's great.  If the cops arrest 10% fewer individuals because their neighbors pressure them to stop enforcing certain immoral laws, that's great.  If the cops arrest 10% fewer individuals because they hear a radio show and decide that what they've been doing was wrong, that's great.  Et cetera.

There isn't one right way to do activism.  There are many paths that lead to the same destination.  All legitimate means are welcome.

Joe
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"An armed society is a polite society" - this does not mean that we are polite because we fear each other.

We are not civilized because we are armed; we are armed because we are civilized..

FTL_Ian

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You nailed it, Joe.  That's why I support all forms of activism.  For Denis, it's about policy change.  For others it's about living free and setting an example of courage to inspire others to do the same.  For others it's about changing hearts and minds and the zeitgeist, and understanding that the policy will change afterwards.
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