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Author Topic: FSP discussion group  (Read 6278 times)

phylinidaho

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FSP discussion group
« on: August 14, 2002, 07:18:23 am »

IMO It should be obvious by now that the Yahoo FSP discussion group should either be made the general discussion or disabled. That group has 390 members, contrasted with 176 members on the forum and only 97 on crackerbarrel. I know we have had this discussion before, but the reality is that a majority of posters seem to prefer the FSP group for general discussion, for reasons of their own. It is becoming burdensome for those wishing to discuss legitimate business and having difficulty with the forum for one reason or another.
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Freestatepatriot

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Re:FSP discussion group
« Reply #1 on: August 14, 2002, 08:06:23 am »

I agree, as I mentioned on the crackerbarrel list.  The FSP list is becoming too burdensome for me.  I notice also that membership in that list is down from its high in the 400s.  I'm thinking of taking myself off of the FSP list, and remaining with the forum and the fspcrackerbarrel.  Of late there have been some serious misunderstandings and differences of opinion on the FSP list, especially with regard to perceived censorship, that could threaten the unity and stability of this Project.

Adam G.
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Reaper

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Re:FSP discussion group
« Reply #2 on: August 14, 2002, 08:28:34 am »

I'd suggest abandoning the FSP yahoo mailing list to be used for "general discussion" and creating a new FSP yahoo mailing list for business purposes.  Call it FSPbusinessonly or some such thing.  Make its membership open by permission only and send an email to each person requesting access with specifically what the list is NOT for and telling them to respond if they still want to be on it.  Then I would also remove posting privilidges from anyone on the list who continues debates there not related to FSP business after being warned a couple times.

Just my 2 cents.
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Reaper
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debra

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Re:FSP discussion group
« Reply #3 on: August 14, 2002, 09:02:03 am »

Hi guys,

I posted this on the main list as well:

------------------------------

"Hi Phyllis,

Another organizer & I were just discussing that as well. Although the
purpose of this forum is well-defined, it appears to be taking on a life of  its own. Personally, I'm planning to just change to "no email" so I don't  get the messages, and post exclusively in the forum Strategy section.

If there's interest, I'd be willing to make a mail-only list (e.g.
"strategy-talk@..." or whatever) for strategy purposes, but I would need at least 3 volunteers for moderator of that list before I do. I don't have the time to be one myself, and half-hearted or occasional moderation only causes conflict & bad feelings, as evidenced here."

---------------------

As an FYI, the FSP site now has the ability to create mailing lists, so instead of using Yahoo, we could have (as mentioned above) whatever@lists.freestateproject.org  . It also creates an archive of messages like yahoo, so you could search over back-posts.  

BUT, I would definitely need firm commitments from thick-skinned moderators.  I've privately emailed people with stuff like, "the oppression of honeybees in former Soviet Bloc states (or whatever) really doesn't belong on this list", only to be called a Nazi.  ::)

It ain't pretty...


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Reaper

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Re:FSP discussion group
« Reply #4 on: August 14, 2002, 09:05:23 am »

BUT, I would definitely need firm commitments from thick-skinned moderators.  I've privately emailed people with stuff like, "the oppression of honeybees in former Soviet Bloc states (or whatever) really doesn't belong on this list", only to be called a Nazi.  ::)


Well . . .

I'm your stereotypical cold hearted libertarian bastard so I'd probably make a good moderator.
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Reaper
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debra

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Re:FSP discussion group
« Reply #5 on: August 14, 2002, 09:11:53 am »



Well . . .

I'm your stereotypical cold hearted libertarian bastard so I'd probably make a good moderator.


That's one....
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Elizabeth

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Moderation and Vacation
« Reply #6 on: August 14, 2002, 03:21:22 pm »

[this was posted to the main list]

From:  "elizabeth_freestate" <emckinst@hotmail.com>
Date:  Wed Aug 14, 2002  12:56 pm
Subject:  Moderation and Vacation

1) I'm going on vacation, so any posts that need to be moderated may have a short delay until Jason gets back tonight.

2) For those who have received private emails from a certain member advocating a split in the FSP, I ask you to get the facts first before you make any kind of decision. No posts by this member have been censored, ever. This member was asked to
change a cosmetic aspect of posts which was causing
complaints.

3) I now believe that this list should become either totally moderated or totally unmoderated. Clearly what we thought would be the politest option -- asking people to control themselves -- does nothing but convince people they are being singled out or censored. There are pros and cons to both
options.

For a totally moderated list, the pros are that we will keep a place for those who want to discuss and/or follow FSP business only. This is ostensibly the only place for that now, and it would disappear. The cons of a totally moderated list involve the amount of work and further abuse moderators will have to take.

Pros of an unmoderated list are that it would satisfy the random discussion urge, and remove one more task from Jason's and my plates. A con is that we will continue to lose -- en masse -- subscribers who have jobs, etc., are busy, and aren't interested
in general philosophy discussions. These are people I think we would miss if we lost them, because they tend to bring a focused viewpoint. Another con is that most organizers are already not part of the discussion list because of the volume of FSP-unrelated posts; making the list a free-for-all would guarantee that there would be even less discussion from those
getting the work done. One more con -- newbies will likely be put off by the random nature of discussion on the list, when they sign up just to find out about the FSP.

I will not be around to respond to this. I hope a decision is made
while I'm gone, but it's up to Jason. Regardless, I will no longer
take on moderation duties, since I have had enough of (some)
adults behaving like children.


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debra

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Re:FSP discussion group
« Reply #7 on: August 14, 2002, 06:42:33 pm »

I think Solitar is absolutely right. A beautiful feature of this forum is that it allows the "talk-talk" to take place, but if it takes place in an inappropriate area (e.g. discussions about religion in the Strategy area), we can simply move the discussion to a more appropriate place. The talkers aren't censored and the people who want to focus on actually accomplishing something aren't overwhelmed with side posts.

One of the major issues that we have to consider, though, is that a good 40% or more of our online membership prefer the email format over web forums. This is particularly true of the dialup users, as they experience a great deal of lag time switching between screens on the forum. Batch-downloading is more efficient and in some cases, cheaper, if they pay per-minute charges.

YaBB (the developers of this forum) have been promising an email module so people can read and post via email as well as via the web. This would have the advantages of (a) including the email people, (b) coordinating all discussions into a single location, and (c) allowing email OR web users to pick and choose what discussions and/or boards and/or categories they wish to read, while ignoring the rest.

Unfortunately, this ideal situation is predicated on the YaBB developers who have not yet developed this module.  Because it is an open-source project, the developers work on what they want, when they want.  They're volunteers, to the best of my knowlege. I've been seriously considering offering them some cash to focus on the email module issue.
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JasonPSorens

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Re:FSP discussion group
« Reply #8 on: August 14, 2002, 10:21:05 pm »

What we've decided to do for now is to make the Yahoo list moderated.  There's already a general-discussion Yahoo list, called "fspcrackerbarrel."  The "freestateproject" list will be strictly business-related.  Right now I'm doing the moderation but would welcome someone trustworthy to take over the job.  The list does have 370 members, but the vast majority of them do not actually read the group very often; they're subscribed to "special notices only" or "no email" (which is rather pointless since the web version is manifestly worse than this web community).  These forums actually have a much more active readership, I'd say.  So hopefully the "censorship" involved will not raise too many hackles & will help the email list be used efficiently.
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"Educate your children, educate yourselves, in the love for the freedom of others, for only in this way will your own freedom not be a gratuitous gift from fate. You will be aware of its worth and will have the courage to defend it." --Joaquim Nabuco (1883), Abolitionism

amyday

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Re:FSP discussion group
« Reply #9 on: August 14, 2002, 10:42:10 pm »

Actually I am sign up on yahoo as 'no email', but I go to the web site and read them there. I find that much easier than getting them by email. I don't imagine I am the only one who does that.
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JasonPSorens

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Re:FSP discussion group
« Reply #10 on: August 14, 2002, 11:03:57 pm »

Well, with moderation on "freestateproject," probably most of the "no email" folks will concentrate on the forums here, since the web version of Yahoo groups is vastly inferior to the forums we have set up here.  Well, my point was just that moderation on "freestateproject" won't mean that people can't get their ideas out to a large number of people.  I think "fspcrackerbarrel" will soon have a larger active readership (if not already) than "freestateproject" among web-averse folks.
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"Educate your children, educate yourselves, in the love for the freedom of others, for only in this way will your own freedom not be a gratuitous gift from fate. You will be aware of its worth and will have the courage to defend it." --Joaquim Nabuco (1883), Abolitionism
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