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Author Topic: 288,504 reasons not to vote for NH  (Read 13824 times)

ZionCurtain

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Re:Western Stigma
« Reply #30 on: June 30, 2003, 05:10:23 pm »

Sorry, Wyoming is good for smaller population only.  It faces huge problems, such as being landlocked.  Also, it faces the dreaded Western Stigma.  A movement such as the FSP is more likely to be deemed a militia radicalist movement if it occurs in Wyoming than if it occurs in New Hampshire.  New Hampshire is the most Libertarian state in the nation and yet it remains one of the most respected states in the nation.  There are other factors, such as its access to both the Canadian border, the Atlantic ocean, and direct border access with TWO OTHER candidate states.  If we want to think long term and think about expanding the plan after the takeover, we should look to a state with is connected by geography to other candidate states - New Hampshire IS that state.
We are not planning a succession movement, so the border thing is a non issue. As for the western stigma it is about as valid as the Vermont movement, and yet you think moving in next door would somehow make it chic? Also the LP ranks Wyoming as the most Libertarian state in the union not NH. Another Forest Gump post from our friends in NH.
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jgmaynard

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Re:288,504 reasons not to vote for NH
« Reply #31 on: June 30, 2003, 05:53:39 pm »

I feel sorry for people who stigmitize people and regions by innuendo and prejudice..... It is very sad.

If a western state were chosen (or another eastern state) I would look forward to meeting it's people and experience a new lifestyle.

People and new places are wonderful. I love to travel to other cultures, and have even talked in Europe with Middle Easterners explaining to me why they "hate the American government".

But, that is why I have no opt-outs.

JM

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Mickey

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Re:288,504 reasons not to vote for NH
« Reply #32 on: June 30, 2003, 09:38:32 pm »

 New Hampshire may have the largest population, and Wyoming may have the smallest, but this does not matter. I think that a lot of people are under estimating the effect a small number of people can have. All great things are accomplished by a vary small group of determined people.

Many times, in reflecting on the possibilities of the FSP, I have considered what it could do in my home state of Indiana with its population 6,080,485 (WY is 499,000 and NH is 1,275,000).

I've looked for currnet LPIN membership totals and the most recent number I could find online was 627 in the year 2000 (in that year LPWY had 79 and LPNH had 363). From what I remember of the 2002 LPIN state convention, there were a little over 800 at that point.

In 2002, the LPIN ran for 159 offices (LPWY ran for 8 and LPNH ran for 18). Those 159 candidates included all four state wide offices up for election, all nine congressional districts, and about a third of the state representative districts. Most of our candidates ran minimal campaigns, but we still made a big splash. The media and voters took notice and we made a lot of new connections.

Now immagine if 20,000 libertarians had moved to Indiana before all that. Even if only half (10,000) joined the party, that would be an increase in membership of over 1200%! Theoretically, we could have ran 2067 candidates! That's over 33% more than the rest of the states combined ran in 2002!

Think of it! We could have ran for all congressional seats, all state wide seats, all 100 state representative seats, all 50 state senate seats, and hundreds of local offices including mayorships and county and city councils galore. We would have had over 12 times as many 'full time' candidates. There are 92 counties in Indiana. We could have ran for a majority of every county and city council in the state! Every voter would see 'L's all over their ballot.

What about the other 8,000 new party members? Every candidate could have had a campaign manager for all of their paper work (I had to handle my own when I ran for state rep). Every candidate could have had some one assigned to fund raising (I raised no money). Every candidate could have had a media relations person (the media often had to track me down for an interview). Every candidate could have had a speach writer (I had to come up with every thing I said on the spot and wasn't very impressive).

We could have won hundreds of elections easily and with little effort.

What of the other 10,000 libertarian migrants? There are numerous other ways to promote liberty than direct campaign activity. Every newspaper in the state could have been flooded with letters to the edditor. There could have been networks of home schoolers. Tax protests every month. A gun show in every county every month. Libertarian rock concerts and raves. Libertarian charities. The possibilities are endless!

It could have had a libertarian revolution in Indiana. We would have shaked the political establishment of the entire nation!!!


I used to think that Indiana was one of the more libertarian leaning states in the union. We have one of the best LP state parties in the country. But Indiana doesn't hold a candle to New Hampshire. NH has a culture many times more libertarian that IN. NH has one fourth the population. It could be four times as great in NH. Better than four times as great. You might rebut that it could be 12 time as great in WY. So what. Won't we hit a point of diminishing returns at some point? When we're running for every office in the land and every candidate has a full campain staff and there are still more activists to boot, what will three times more people accomplish?

Any of states under consideration will get us to the activist saturation point we need to break through the old parties' political machines. Even in the biggest candidate state we'll have all the people needed.

Let's have no more of this population debate. It's not that big of a deal.
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RacecaR

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Re:288,504 reasons not to vote for NH
« Reply #33 on: June 30, 2003, 09:59:57 pm »

Quote
Let's have no more of this population debate. It's not that big of a deal.

It is most assuredly a big deal.  

From what I've been reading, New Hampshire isn't even in the top 5 states.  It's got less of a chance than Alaska in my book.  I'd be shocked if it came in 3rd place.  If I were a betting man, I'd lay 10-1 odds against New Hampshire being chosen as the free state.

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Mickey

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Re:288,504 reasons not to vote for NH
« Reply #34 on: June 30, 2003, 10:11:21 pm »

Consider this thought experiment.  Hypothetically speaking, let’s imagine that Keith and each of the strongest New Hampshire supporters where all born, raised, and spent their whole lives in Indianapolis, Indiana.  If that were the case, would Keith still believe that Wyoming is the best state?  I think he would.  On the other hand, if the strongest New Hampshire supporters had spent their whole lives in Indiana, would they still be arguing as passionately for New Hampshire?  I believe the answer is absolutely not.

By the way. In case you couldn't tell from my last post, I'm a Hoosier. ;) I grew up in Indiana and I am big time in support of New Hampshire. I've run for office twice so I can tell you that I firmly believe that our campains will be so much less work in NH. :)
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StevenN

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Re:288,504 reasons not to vote for NH
« Reply #35 on: June 30, 2003, 11:26:44 pm »

Quote
All great things are accomplished by a vary small group of determined people.

Amen, Mickey! You've succinctly laid out what I have tried tirelessly to say!
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RacecaR

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Re:288,504 reasons not to vote for NH
« Reply #36 on: July 01, 2003, 12:25:55 am »

Quote
Here is the link to the latest poll

I don't see a poll there.  Just people talking about which state should be chosen.  A poll is like a vote.  You can set them up online easily.  Go to yahoo and make a group and you can create a poll there.  I already have in the california fsp group.
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BobW

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Re:288,504 reasons not to vote for NH
« Reply #37 on: July 01, 2003, 02:28:17 am »

Hi Mickey,

Re # 32;

I've got to disagree that population doesn't matter.

Population determines the number of House of Rep seats.  The more House contests, the more adversaries.

My point here isn't to get into the NH-WY argument.

Population and derivitive, the Congressional reps, determine the amount of resources needed.  It's a common denominator issue among the various candidate states.

Let's review:

Montana:  1 Rep
Idaho:       2 Reps
Wyoming:  1 Rep
New Hamp 2 Reps
N.Dak:        1 Rep

Alaska is different.  The Rep is really a quasi  US Senator.

It's a basic rule that more resources will be available if  targeting only one adversary organization (and protecting against), than 2 different ones.

BobW
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freedomroad

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Re:Western Stigma
« Reply #38 on: July 01, 2003, 04:42:25 am »

Sorry, Wyoming is good for smaller population only.  It faces huge problems, such as being landlocked.


There are 5 different threads about how this is a good thing, read 1,2 or all of them :)

Quote
Also, it faces the dreaded Western Stigma.  A movement such as the FSP is more likely to be deemed a militia radicalist movement if it occurs in Wyoming than if it occurs in New Hampshire.

I hardly think a bunch of city people from CA, TX, FL, NY, and a bunch of rural people from UT, CO, SD, MT, and ID moving to Wyoming would be deemed a militia movement.  Jason just rided a handgun for (I think) the first time in his life a few weeks ago.  How could 200 people in Evanston, and a completely different and independent 200 people in Torrington be connect as part of a militia?  This really does not make sense.  How will anyone he know if a person used to be in the FSP (after we move the project will go away and we will all leave it)?


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 New Hampshire is the most Libertarian state in the nation and yet it remains one of the most respected states in the nation.

How does a state become respected?  What are you talking about?  I thought (in this order) that Wyoming, Alaska, and Idaho were the most libertarian states in the nation.

Quote
There are other factors, such as its access to both the Canadian border, the Atlantic ocean, and direct border access with TWO OTHER candidate states.  If we want to think long term and think about expanding the plan after the takeover,


What on earth are you talking about?  What takeover?  In NH they are talking about a LP caucus.  In Wyoming everything would appear natural.  It is just that all of the FSP memembers will be elected by the citizens of Wyoming and reduce government by 2/3s.  

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we should look to a state with is connected by geography to other candidate states - New Hampshire IS that state.

It is one of those states.  NH is connected to 2 states.  MT 4 states.  Wyoming 3 states.  However, since WY, ID, SD, and MT are all somewhat free, they have lot of things in common and movements spread from one to the other.

NH is next to two socialist states that get worse every year, even though NH is pretty free.  Why would anything change if we moved their?  Do you not understand that the people of Vermont like socialism?

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jgmaynard

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Startegizing for a state
« Reply #39 on: July 01, 2003, 08:27:00 am »

I hardly think a bunch of city people from CA, TX, FL, NY, and a bunch of rural people from UT, CO, SD, MT, and ID moving to Wyoming would be deemed a militia movement.

Maybe not so much in WY, but MT or ID would give them the opportunity to label us as such, although unfair.

Quote
How could 200 people in Evanston, and a completely different and independent 200 people in Torrington be connect as part of a militia?  This really does not make sense.

Who ever said the media made sense?

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How will anyone he know if a person used to be in the FSP (after we move the project will go away and we will all leave it)?

I don't know about other states, but if NH is chosen, we already have a large voluntary database we are setting up.... Also contains community contacts so that when porcupines move here, there are people who are willing top introduce them in communities, and start them on the road to new friendships.

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How does a state become respected?  What are you talking about?  I thought (in this order) that Wyoming, Alaska, and Idaho were the most libertarian states in the nation.

Based on what? Which quantifiable numbers are you basing that on (not saying it may not be true in some ways, just asking for specifics - No, I don't put much weight on RLC rankings, they're Republicans first and foremost. Party loyalty gets in the way for them)? The LPNH has more Libs elected than all the western states combined.... We are having meetings with other state LP's quite often, with them asking us how to do what we are doing.

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What on earth are you talking about?  What takeover?  In NH they are talking about a LP caucus.  In Wyoming everything would appear natural.  It is just that all of the FSP memembers will be elected by the citizens of Wyoming and reduce government by 2/3s.  

Are you saying that we shouldn't or couldn't work within the LP framework in WY? An LP caucus is a MAJOR tool.... remember, we had one just about 10 years ago.

Quote
NH is next to two socialist states that get worse every year, even though NH is pretty free.  Why would anything change if we moved their?  Do you not understand that the people of Vermont like socialism?

Actually, the is a strong Lib undercurrent in VT (civil unions, best gun laws in the nation), but they have had their agenda hijacked by a few thousand well placed liberals... We can take it back. But one state at a time... Hit the statists where they are the weakest, and where we stand the best chance at getting 15,000 more people by Sept 2006 and can get the porcupines working, running businesses, and into office as easily as possible. New Hampshire is that state.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2003, 08:30:38 am by jgmaynard »
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rdeacon

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Re:Western Stigma
« Reply #40 on: July 01, 2003, 09:45:02 am »

Zion - We are not planning a succession movement, however I could imagine one quickly being thrust upon us once we start to enforce more strictly libertarian ideals (you try to legalize marijuana and see how far the feds will let you go).  The Vermont movement does not stigmatize any other state in New England.  The Western stigma, however, affects a good 40% of all US states, some of which aren't even in the West.

Another asinine post from Zion.

We are not planning a succession movement, so the border thing is a non issue. As for the western stigma it is about as valid as the Vermont movement, and yet you think moving in next door would somehow make it chic? Also the LP ranks Wyoming as the most Libertarian state in the union not NH. Another Forest Gump post from our friends in NH.
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ZionCurtain

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Re:Western Stigma
« Reply #41 on: July 01, 2003, 10:06:05 am »

Zion - We are not planning a succession movement, however I could imagine one quickly being thrust upon us once we start to enforce more strictly libertarian ideals (you try to legalize marijuana and see how far the feds will let you go).  The Vermont movement does not stigmatize any other state in New England.  The Western stigma, however, affects a good 40% of all US states, some of which aren't even in the West.

Another asinine post from Zion.

We are not planning a succession movement, so the border thing is a non issue. As for the western stigma it is about as valid as the Vermont movement, and yet you think moving in next door would somehow make it chic? Also the LP ranks Wyoming as the most Libertarian state in the union not NH. Another Forest Gump post from our friends in NH.
Quote
So you are saying 20 states have a "western stigma" some not even in the west. What is your so called western stigma? The only western "stigma" I see is a anti-government freedom loving people. If that is a "western stigma" then I think all states should have it.
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RacecaR

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Re:288,504 reasons not to vote for NH
« Reply #42 on: July 01, 2003, 12:53:59 pm »

Quote
We are not planning a succession movement, however I could imagine one quickly being thrust upon us once we start to enforce more strictly libertarian ideals (you try to legalize marijuana and see how far the feds will let you go).

Were I the governor of the free state I would tell the Feds if they tried to come into my state to prosecute people for marijuana, I'd call out the national guard against them.  And I wouldn't be sending any money to the fed from our state for the enforcement of drug laws.
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rdeacon

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Re:Western Stigma
« Reply #43 on: July 01, 2003, 01:03:03 pm »

The "western stigma" (which is not my invention, and is mentioned in the "articles and essays section of this site) is the view that will be held by many if we move to a state like Montana or Wyoming.   We will more likely than not be branded as militia members/gun nuts, counterculturalists, and just about every other bad stereotype you've ever heard.  It will stigmatize us because a movement such as this requires the utmost of respect in order to succeed.  I agree that Wyoming is one of the best states to choose (on paper), but it carries a dangerous stereotype that will hurt the movement and make it an easier sell for the feds to shut us down, should the need arise.

Zion - We are not planning a succession movement, however I could imagine one quickly being thrust upon us once we start to enforce more strictly libertarian ideals (you try to legalize marijuana and see how far the feds will let you go).  The Vermont movement does not stigmatize any other state in New England.  The Western stigma, however, affects a good 40% of all US states, some of which aren't even in the West.

Another asinine post from Zion.

We are not planning a succession movement, so the border thing is a non issue. As for the western stigma it is about as valid as the Vermont movement, and yet you think moving in next door would somehow make it chic? Also the LP ranks Wyoming as the most Libertarian state in the union not NH. Another Forest Gump post from our friends in NH.
Quote
So you are saying 20 states have a "western stigma" some not even in the west. What is your so called western stigma? The only western "stigma" I see is a anti-government freedom loving people. If that is a "western stigma" then I think all states should have it.
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jgmaynard

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Re:288,504 reasons not to vote for NH
« Reply #44 on: July 01, 2003, 01:14:30 pm »

More importantly, I believe the "militia stigma" will hurt us trying to get 5,000 new members a year before our deadline of Sept 06. We are going to need to recruit tax activists, cannabis law reformers, gay and lesbian rights activists, etc. who may not be aware of the entire pro-liberty platform. They'll come around, but our recruiting efforts have to be inclusive of liberty activists now no matter what their subject of choice.

JM
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