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Author Topic: Once I'm in NH how can I put my life savings in gold?  (Read 16668 times)

anon37268573

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Re: Once I'm in NH how can I put my life savings in gold?
« Reply #45 on: November 21, 2010, 01:26:21 am »

I'm keeping all my wealth in 19 year old women... the ultimate commodity.  Just thought I'd let you know.
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Bazil

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Re: Once I'm in NH how can I put my life savings in gold?
« Reply #46 on: November 21, 2010, 01:01:46 pm »

I'm keeping all my wealth in 19 year old women... the ultimate commodity.  Just thought I'd let you know.

I think that's a bad place, teenagers tend to spend on the money you invest in them ;)
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rossby

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Re: Once I'm in NH how can I put my life savings in gold?
« Reply #47 on: November 21, 2010, 01:24:36 pm »

Cost of doing business.
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eh?

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Re: Once I'm in NH how can I put my life savings in gold?
« Reply #48 on: November 21, 2010, 05:48:49 pm »

That the relativity that your presenting is not specific to gold.
That historically gold was less a determinate than silver.
That the data your using is manipulated by decree less than by market.

Partially agree but I don't see any of the above as supportive of unbacked fiat.  Are you suggesting that it is?
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John Edward Mercier

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Re: Once I'm in NH how can I put my life savings in gold?
« Reply #49 on: November 21, 2010, 05:57:23 pm »

Whether its a backed-fiat or unbacked-fiat really is not significant.

It was a backed-fiat between 1900 and 1970... though the public could only speculate as to whether the US Treasury had the amount of gold recorded, and whether currency had been created only to the fiat level.

Today's market valuation removes that to some degree.
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eh?

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Re: Once I'm in NH how can I put my life savings in gold?
« Reply #50 on: November 21, 2010, 08:29:43 pm »

I think we've already agreed that all that "fiat" means is "by decree" so, yeah, it could matter if it was backed - gold coins could be fiat and, in a sense, some (the ones which are "legal tender" and have a face value) gold coins are fiat now.  It seems to me that a person would have to be an idiot to exchange them as legal tender and not as bullion, but nevermind.  Of course, ICBW.

Also, the US$ isn't the only unbacked fiat out there right now.  In fact, if there is one that is backed, it doesn't spring to mind.  Dunno what makes any of them special or more likely to endure than any other- and so many haven't.

By hearsay, gold has a history as an excellent store of wealth stretching for several thousand years.  I haven't heard of any unbacked fiat that has retained any value for more than a few hundred.

I agree with you that silver has been pretty good, too.  Some people are suggesting that in the next few years it could be quite a bit better than gold.  Then there are those that wouldn't touch either right now with very lengthy poles.  Who is to say, with certainty, that they're wrong?  I think both sides make some good arguments, but I dunno.  Opinions make markets.

Only thing I'm absolutely certain of is that I personally would not feel comfortable relying solely on ruined paper and wasted ink.  Solely on gold or silver either, for that matter.   :)
« Last Edit: November 21, 2010, 08:42:17 pm by eh? »
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John Edward Mercier

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Re: Once I'm in NH how can I put my life savings in gold?
« Reply #51 on: November 21, 2010, 09:07:55 pm »

The US$ isn't truly an unbacked fiat.
The currency (warehouse receipt) can be exchanged for coin (constitutional money).
The metal has a market value (www.coinflation.com).
It is considered 'fiat' because the market value does not match the face value.

The early coinage was simply made from the three metals that had been commonly used copper, silver, and gold.
So our history on relative valuation tends to these standards.

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eh?

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Re: Once I'm in NH how can I put my life savings in gold?
« Reply #52 on: November 28, 2010, 10:04:45 pm »

The historical record is, as far as I know, clear and unambiguous.  Gold has, all factors considered, been far and away the best choice for the preservation of wealth, especially long term.  Fiat currencies have, without any exception of which I am aware, been an unbridled and unmitigated disaster from that point of view.  I would dearly love to be proven wrong but I have seen no credible evidence to the contrary.  If there is something available which is better than gold, I want to know about it.  While I do find your comments intriguing, I do not see where they contradict any preceding part of this paragraph in any substantial way.

The US$ isn't truly an unbacked fiat.
The currency (warehouse receipt) can be exchanged for coin (constitutional money).

I think that, in order truly to be a “backed” fiat currency, it is necessary, although perhaps not sufficient, that there must be an unbreachable requirement that the issuer must be required to exchange, on demand, any amount of the currency (warehouse receipt, as you say, or equivalent) for a definite quantity, not necessarily of equivalent market value, of something else.

Exchange of an amount of fiat in one form (e.g. warehouse receipts in the form of paper documents) for a numerically equivalent amount of the same fiat in another form (e. g. legal tender coins having a face value) does not satisfy, in my mind, this requirement.  To suggest otherwise is to suggest, for example, that $100 FRN's are “backed” because they can be exchanged on demand for $50 FRN's.  This is not changed due to paper and/or ink having a market value, if they do.  This is confirmed and exacerbated when the law prohibits, as it sometimes does, melting down the coinage to recover the market value of the contained metal.

The market value of a component of a fiat component(s) does not constitute “backing” for the fiat.  It is simply the market value of the component.  This is true whether the fiat is in the form of digital currency, copper coin, gold coin, etc.  It is a special, but not fundamentally different, situation when the market value of the component is equal to or greater than than the unit of fiat which includes that component.  In this latter case Gresham's Law is likely to come into play.

Quote
The metal has a market value (www.coinflation.com).
It is considered 'fiat' because the market value does not match the face value.

This is inconsistent with your, and our agreed upon, previous position that “fiat” simply means “by decree”, without any reference to anything such as “market value.”

Quote
The early coinage was simply made from the three metals that had been commonly used copper, silver, and gold.
So our history on relative valuation tends to these standards.

I believe that there is a fallacy, equivalent to “begging the question”, embedded in the above statement, if I understand it correctly.  (If I do not, please expand and clarify). The metals have a market value and it is this which tends to be tracked by relative valuation, not the fiat coinage which contains them.  The face value of that coinage is fiat, i.e. determined “by decree”, but not the market value, if any, of the contained metal.
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To advocate compulsory taxation (there is no other kind) is to advocate aggressive violence.
Rare indeed seem those who would rather the lash were banished utterly from human interaction save in defense of self and property
than the haft thereof find on convenient occasion its lawful place nestled comfortably in their own grasp.

John Edward Mercier

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Re: Once I'm in NH how can I put my life savings in gold?
« Reply #53 on: November 28, 2010, 11:57:11 pm »

The historical record means nothing because of the fiat gold standard during the majority of it. You would need to quantify during a non-fiat period... and gold just doesn't cut it.

As for the second... NO. It would still be a fiat, but it would be backed by commodity.
And it is fiat because the decreed value and market value are not the same... else the decree would have no relevance.

Currently, but not at the time. Fiat tends to distort market value as it did with the gold above. The early fiat placing gold at a fifteen to one ratio with silver. Warehouse receipts existed within the early Republic, but it was this forced relative ratios that created the problem.

Its not the use of metals as many presume... its the relative valuation of those metals.
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antistate1190

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Re: Once I'm in NH how can I put my life savings in gold?
« Reply #54 on: November 29, 2010, 12:04:52 am »

The historical record means nothing because of the fiat gold standard during the majority of it. You would need to quantify during a non-fiat period... and gold just doesn't cut it.

As for the second... NO. It would still be a fiat, but it would be backed by commodity.
And it is fiat because the decreed value and market value are not the same... else the decree would have no relevance.

Currently, but not at the time. Fiat tends to distort market value as it did with the gold above. The early fiat placing gold at a fifteen to one ratio with silver. Warehouse receipts existed within the early Republic, but it was this forced relative ratios that created the problem.

Its not the use of metals as many presume... its the relative valuation of those metals.


So how would mutualists solve the dollar crisis esp. since they don't believe in currency?
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John Edward Mercier

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Re: Once I'm in NH how can I put my life savings in gold?
« Reply #55 on: November 29, 2010, 01:56:26 am »

Direct barter. Exchange of equally valued goods.
Proudhon's theories where based on the lack of an authority to render such.

So while you may trade in silver, gold, whatever... its direct and not through warehouse receipt or decreed ratios.
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Russell Kanning

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Re: Once I'm in NH how can I put my life savings in gold?
« Reply #56 on: November 29, 2010, 05:19:15 am »

buy gold from your new freestater friends
especially anyone sick or scared of owning it :)
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WendellBerry

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Re: Once I'm in NH how can I put my life savings in gold?
« Reply #57 on: November 29, 2010, 08:21:47 am »

The historical record means nothing because of the fiat gold standard during the majority of it. You would need to quantify during a non-fiat period... and gold just doesn't cut it.

As for the second... NO. It would still be a fiat, but it would be backed by commodity.
And it is fiat because the decreed value and market value are not the same... else the decree would have no relevance.

Currently, but not at the time. Fiat tends to distort market value as it did with the gold above. The early fiat placing gold at a fifteen to one ratio with silver. Warehouse receipts existed within the early Republic, but it was this forced relative ratios that created the problem.

Its not the use of metals as many presume... its the relative valuation of those metals.


So how would mutualists solve the dollar crisis esp. since they don't believe in currency?

WIR Bank

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WIR_Bank
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