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Author Topic: "This movement is Snowballing, More in Keene, than Anywhere."  (Read 33125 times)

George Donnelly

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Re: "This movement is Snowballing, More in Keene, than Anywhere."
« Reply #30 on: April 27, 2009, 09:53:39 pm »

Dave I was at the Liberty Forum (we met at the statehouse tour) and am moving my family up next month. :)

I understand your POV, however misguided I think it is. I just want you to understand those who think electoral politics and government are inherently immoral and evil. Are there questions I can answer for you that might help you understand the "outside-the-system-types" better?

Building a liberty movement is all about marketing don't you think? We're selling something here. As a real estate agent surely you recognize that? Can't sell much without a good bit of horn tooting. :) I do a lot of that on teh internets and have had some success with it so let me know if I can write about what you're doing.

See the end of this article for a partial list of my gameplan for liberty activism in NH:

http://georgedonnelly.com/opinion/liberty-lovers-need-guns-honey

You're interested in results. Me too. What are the results you want to see exactly? If it's more people moving up I can tell you the things that are motivating me to move my family up from south america:

- personal lobbying by dreepa and seth
- Will's walk for liberty
- the Keene activism

election gains and spending caps weren't doing it for me even before I realized I was a voluntaryist a few months ago. I'm not putting you down, just being straight with you.
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Re: "This movement is Snowballing, More in Keene, than Anywhere."
« Reply #31 on: April 27, 2009, 11:37:20 pm »

I'm not about telling others how to promote freedom, but I do sometimes get concerned when I see the stuff coming out of Keene, always saying these freestaters did this.  It give the perception of outsiders trying to tell the locals what to do, and folks don't like that.  Do your thing for sure, but personally I just wish you would do it as concerned citizens of Keene, and not as freestaters.

When I took the pledge, I promised to move to NH, make it my home, and work to promote freedom.  I see the Free State Project as the Bus that got me to NH.  I'm thankful for the ride, but now NH is my home!  Seems to me working with my neighbors who share my views it the way to go.

This times 1,000,000!!!
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Re: "This movement is Snowballing, More in Keene, than Anywhere."
« Reply #32 on: April 28, 2009, 12:13:30 am »

Dave I was at the Liberty Forum (we met at the statehouse tour) and am moving my family up next month. :)

I understand your POV, however misguided I think it is. I just want you to understand those who think electoral politics and government are inherently immoral and evil. Are there questions I can answer for you that might help you understand the "outside-the-system-types" better?

Building a liberty movement is all about marketing don't you think? We're selling something here. As a real estate agent surely you recognize that? Can't sell much without a good bit of horn tooting. :) I do a lot of that on teh internets and have had some success with it so let me know if I can write about what you're doing....You're interested in results. Me too. What are the results you want to see exactly? If it's more people moving up I can tell you the things that are motivating me to move my family up from south america:

- personal lobbying by dreepa and seth
- Will's walk for liberty
- the Keene activism

election gains and spending caps weren't doing it for me even before I realized I was a voluntaryist a few months ago. I'm not putting you down, just being straight with you.

Dave and I don't always agree on the fora, but he's 100% right about this.  I've been following Dave Mincin's (and Ron in Deerfield, Kieth and Karl in Manchester, etc...) model of local political involvement.  Many activists are low key and don't make tons of noise about what we're doing.  When you get up here and come to our meetings, you'll hear folks in person talking about 100 different things that they've attempted, and dozens of little bits of progress all over the state.  We've made huge strides in over a dozen towns, killed bill in the State House, and even gotten a few measures passed making New Hamsphire just a little bit freer.  If we had another thousand activists doing this kind of low key political work, we'd be on our way to a truly free society.

What I, personally, have seen of Keene activism, is the very backlash I warned about back in 2002.  That is, if we're seen as coming in to take over and "force our way" on the locals, there will be a negative backlash.  These issues have been rehashed over and over and over again.  Think that this is a new topic? 

Take a look at this earlier thread:

http://forum.freestateproject.org/index.php?topic=4554.0

It's about as predictive as Nostradamus.  Those of us who've been part of the project this long can get a laugh out of this one.  Read the whole thread, if you can, including this prophetic statement by JasonM, who hasn't posted in four years, and still has a Menlo Park, California, address:

Quote
I'd really like to see a split between Keene and Bow.  I really hope our members don't just go to random cities all over NH since the project will become less powerfull without large concentrations.
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sj

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Re: "This movement is Snowballing, More in Keene, than Anywhere."
« Reply #33 on: April 28, 2009, 12:28:56 am »

if we're seen as coming in to take over and "force our way" on the locals, there will be a negative backlash.

Yep.
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Re: "This movement is Snowballing, More in Keene, than Anywhere."
« Reply #34 on: April 28, 2009, 01:57:56 am »

I think most would agree it's better to try and blend in to make change versus broadcasting loudly you are bunch of outsiders coming in to change the way things "are done round here."  An FSP secret oath?  "And once you cross the State Line of NH, you are never to speak of the Free State Project in public to anyone and never show or wear any signage that would indicate your group's affiliation, unless you're attending a private meeting or won't be seen in public."  It makes me think of what the Keene Bosses would be saying if they thought, Jessie's Gardening, Marijuana CD, Ian's Stand, Sam's Stand, etc. were Not at all related!   But I wonder about the possibility of being able to keep something like that secret.  Anyway, I like the term Liberty Activist.

I've been thinking about all the Different definitions, of what More Liberty in our Lifetimes really means from one person, to the next.  The Mission Statement says "The Maximum role of..." but it doesn't say what the "Minimum role" of Government should be (my favorite part).  Extreme Liberty Lovers/Activists, from all over, moving to NH, to chase and help pursue their Personal Def intion of what Limited Government means and for one minority group, it means No Government at all. (IMO, a noble goal and everyone is aware of the challenge, but you have to start somewhere).

And it appears the ones who share that genearl school of thought are settling in the greater Keene and Grafton areas, and would be known as Anarchists or I think the more popular term that most prefer is:  Voluntarists.  Basically people who do not believe in ever aggressing against their neighbors.  And the rest of the FSPers, generally speaking, are not and they are settling in other areas that fit them best.

And as more people move to particular areas, more progress will be made, based on the type of people, what they DO and what area they move too.  And if the Keene area Media Machine keeps reporting or "tooting it's own horn." and more like minded show up and start doing even more and different CD,  then I think it will continue to bring the biggest number of movers (based on % of Activists to City's Population) and I wonder how it all will evolve.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2009, 03:16:35 am by Markus »
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George Donnelly

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Re: "This movement is Snowballing, More in Keene, than Anywhere."
« Reply #35 on: April 28, 2009, 08:50:15 am »

Seems to me working with my neighbors who share my views it the way to go.

The Keeniacs are doing that too. There are NH natives among their number.

Max I read the old thread but I'm not sure how it relates to this one. It's early and I haven't had my tea yet, maybe I'm just missing it...
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Re: "This movement is Snowballing, More in Keene, than Anywhere."
« Reply #36 on: April 28, 2009, 10:21:43 am »

Whenever a thread is posted about Keene and the movement happening there, you can count on Max to show up and trash Keene and promote the Seacoast.  It's fine.  He's jealous of our success at recruiting movers, and is doing his best to compete, with his recent publishing of his 101 reasons to move to Seabrook.  Of course, we then published the fully updated 2009 edition of the 111+ Reasons to Move to Keene, refocusing the list on the awesome activism happening regularly here.  It must be frustrating to compete with such a burgeoning movement: the amount of new movers and an effective blog/forum that tracks the variety of activism happening here.  (There is FAR more than CD going on as has been described in the earlier posts in this thread.)

Dale's summation is correct.  Keene activists have been moving in higher numbers, locals have been getting active with us, and this has resulted in more activism, which is resulting in more people planning moves to Keene.  Perhaps someday another part of NH will snowball more than Keene, but it's pretty clear this area holds that title.  I say keep up the competition for movers - that's healthy to have happening.  Or rather, keep trying to keep up with us in Keene!

Go Keeniacs!   8) 8) 8)
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dalebert

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Re: "This movement is Snowballing, More in Keene, than Anywhere."
« Reply #37 on: April 28, 2009, 10:26:24 am »

I'm not about telling others how to promote freedom, but I do sometimes get concerned when I see the stuff coming out of Keene, always saying these freestaters did this.  It give the perception of outsiders trying to tell the locals what to do, and folks don't like that.  Do your thing for sure, but personally I just wish you would do it as concerned citizens of Keene, and not as freestaters.

When I took the pledge, I promised to move to NH, make it my home, and work to promote freedom.  I see the Free State Project as the Bus that got me to NH.  I'm thankful for the ride, but now NH is my home!  Seems to me working with my neighbors who share my views it the way to go.

This times 1,000,000!!!

I agree with you, Seth, but this particular criticism is getting tired. Keith & Stuph, same thing. We do what we can to clarify, but at some point it starts to feel futile. The FSP is a powerful brand and it's hard to shake. Also, as some of us are involved in media, like FTL, we are still involved with recruiting from outside even though we're already here. I think we'd be giving up too much to stop recruiting just because of the difficulty of shaking the FSP brand and because some people will fail to understand that the FSP is just a bus.

You also need to understand that it's often the statists who don't like the FSP and want to keep this label attached to activists in an attempt to marginalize us. The statists can't argue their issues worth a crap and so they resort to ad hominem attacks and stereotyping in hopes of discrediting. It's a cowardly and childish tactic. Recently, they even resorted to trying to associate us with the Free Town Project nutjob who dwelled on cannibalism and bestiality when there is a wealth of information about peaceful activism on our LOCAL website which they (perhaps purposefully) ignored.

As you can see, I'm doing my best to explain to people that we are in fact locals and that many locals are getting involved with our liberty activism. I am working on the branding power of Free Keene as a LOCAL organization. Whenever I do activism, that's where I try to attach recognition.

Quote
Free Keene is not associated with the Free State Project though there are a number of free staters who are active within it, so some confusion is understandable. Though a number of free staters are active participants of Free Keene, it’s a local voluntary organization which encourages peaceful participation by anyone in Keene who loves liberty, and in fact many locals are doing just that.

The rest of the article

dalebert

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Re: "This movement is Snowballing, More in Keene, than Anywhere."
« Reply #38 on: April 28, 2009, 10:32:01 am »

I'd like to add that there was a recent controversy about Free Keene volunteers being rejected by the Community Kitchen. I have continued to volunteer there on my own as an individual. I've been encouraging others to follow my lead.

Someone suggested that we all make a point to be good neighbors, neighbors that our fellow locals will be glad to have as neighbors. I've been doing that already. I'd like for people to get to know us and like us BEFORE finding out about our activism which they may or may not agree with, or more likely will agree only to some extent. This is a lesson I learned about coming out as a gay man. When people already liked me, they were a lot less likely to change their opinion of me based on one factor of my personality. This will make it a lot harder for our violent statist opponents in their attempt to marginalize us.

sj

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Re: "This movement is Snowballing, More in Keene, than Anywhere."
« Reply #39 on: April 28, 2009, 11:11:55 am »

I'm not about telling others how to promote freedom, but I do sometimes get concerned when I see the stuff coming out of Keene, always saying these freestaters did this.  It give the perception of outsiders trying to tell the locals what to do, and folks don't like that.  Do your thing for sure, but personally I just wish you would do it as concerned citizens of Keene, and not as freestaters.

When I took the pledge, I promised to move to NH, make it my home, and work to promote freedom.  I see the Free State Project as the Bus that got me to NH.  I'm thankful for the ride, but now NH is my home!  Seems to me working with my neighbors who share my views it the way to go.

This times 1,000,000!!!

I agree with you, Seth, but this particular criticism is getting tired. Keith & Stuph, same thing. We do what we can to clarify, but at some point it starts to feel futile. The FSP is a powerful brand and it's hard to shake. Also, as some of us are involved in media, like FTL, we are still involved with recruiting from outside even though we're already here. I think we'd be giving up too much to stop recruiting just because of the difficulty of shaking the FSP brand and because some people will fail to understand that the FSP is just a bus.

True, Dale.  Having Ian there who, along with Mark, is the FSP's top recruiter makes it more difficult just to be neighbors rather than being "free staters."  But steps could still be taken...such as refocusing the conversation to local activism when one is talking to the Keene Sentinel, rather than talking about the goals and ideas of the FSP (the article you link to at FreeKeene is a step towards addressing that).  Another step could be that when one volunteers at a local charity, one doesn't list "Free State Project" as the organization.  I saw that you have already addressed that as well.  I seem to also remember a lot of callers into TalkBack talking about the FSP and "what free staters believe."  Dale, I think you've set an excellent example of what needs to be done and more people should follow your lead.

One thing to note is that I only recently (a few months ago) found out that the Keene movement is also comprised of natives.  I didn't know that and I follow the NH freedom movement closer than 99.99% of people in NH.  As you know, that weakens your message. 

Just my 2 cents.  I don't mean to be critical.  Like Ian said, whatever you can say about Keene, people are moving there.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2009, 11:26:44 am by sj »
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FTL_Ian

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Re: "This movement is Snowballing, More in Keene, than Anywhere."
« Reply #40 on: April 28, 2009, 11:36:37 am »

Seth, did I read you wrong?  How does having NH natives in the Keene liberty movement "weaken our message"?   ???
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Re: "This movement is Snowballing, More in Keene, than Anywhere."
« Reply #41 on: April 28, 2009, 11:38:01 am »

Seth, did I read you wrong?  How does having NH natives in the Keene liberty movement "weaken our message"?   ???
I think it strengthens the message doesn't it?
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Re: "This movement is Snowballing, More in Keene, than Anywhere."
« Reply #42 on: April 28, 2009, 11:55:39 am »

Seth, did I read you wrong?  How does having NH natives in the Keene liberty movement "weaken our message"?   ???

Wow, I screwed that up.  Yeah, Ian I wasn't clear.

What I was trying to say was that the fact that the Keene freedom movement is viewed as nothing but a movement of "free staters" weakens the movement.  Because it's not just a movement of free staters.  There are lots of natives that free staters joined to help.  I was just saying that, even as a person who follows this stuff, I didn't even know there were natives involved until recently.  Does that make sense?
« Last Edit: April 28, 2009, 12:07:28 pm by sj »
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Re: "This movement is Snowballing, More in Keene, than Anywhere."
« Reply #43 on: April 28, 2009, 12:40:25 pm »

Whenever a thread is posted about Keene and the movement happening there, you can count on Max to show up and trash Keene and promote the Seacoast.  It's fine.  He's jealous of our success at recruiting movers, and is doing his best to compete, with his recent publishing of his 101 reasons to move to Seabrook.  Of course, we then published the fully updated 2009 edition of the 111+ Reasons to Move to Keene, refocusing the list on the awesome activism happening regularly here.  It must be frustrating to compete with such a burgeoning movement: the amount of new movers and an effective blog/forum that tracks the variety of activism happening here.  (There is FAR more than CD going on as has been described in the earlier posts in this thread.)

There are far more activists on the seacoast than in the Keene area.  Portsmouth, for example, has been quietly gaining movers, and they have been supporting some of the local efforts by locals to improve things there.  You don't hear as much about the meetings or activism out here, but there is a lot going on.  Manchester has way more going on than any other town, by far, and is still seeing more new folks coming in each month.  That is something you see by going to Taproom Tuesday, an hour and a half from Keene, but only 40 minutes from the seacoast.  The seacoast is also seeing far more new movers, and far more has been accomplished out here.  Most importantly, we're getting new proliberty Reps elected to Concord, and several F and CT Legislators are now in real danger of losing their seats.

Quote
Dale's summation is correct.  Keene activists have been moving in higher numbers, locals have been getting active with us, and this has resulted in more activism, which is resulting in more people planning moves to Keene.  Perhaps someday another part of NH will snowball more than Keene, but it's pretty clear this area holds that title.  I say keep up the competition for movers - that's healthy to have happening.  Or rather, keep trying to keep up with us in Keene!

Go Keeniacs!   8) 8) 8)

Dale IS correct about new folks moving in, though I've never encountered similar resistance to the fsp in Seabrook.  I mentioned last night at the Seabrook Conservation Commission meeting that I move here as part of the fsp.  Most Seabrook folk like the idea of young folks getting into local issues, and I've never seen or heard a negative remark about the fsp from anyone here.  They type of activism going on elsewhere is just very different from Keene activism.  Some of us who are doing local stuff don't like the constant, "Keene is the center of everything" mantra.  No doubt that Grafton has us all beaten for per ca pita activism.

Also, when I said that Keene sucked, I was merely referring to the town's lower than average barometric pressure. :p
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FTL_Ian

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Re: "This movement is Snowballing, More in Keene, than Anywhere."
« Reply #44 on: April 28, 2009, 01:42:44 pm »

Seth, did I read you wrong?  How does having NH natives in the Keene liberty movement "weaken our message"?   ???

Wow, I screwed that up.  Yeah, Ian I wasn't clear.

What I was trying to say was that the fact that the Keene freedom movement is viewed as nothing but a movement of "free staters" weakens the movement.  Because it's not just a movement of free staters.  There are lots of natives that free staters joined to help.  I was just saying that, even as a person who follows this stuff, I didn't even know there were natives involved until recently.  Does that make sense?

Understandable, as you don't live here.  A quick look at the Free Keene bloggers page should make it clear to anyone investigating, and this year's municipal elections in Keene will be featuring NH natives who support liberty, so people less-in-touch will be more likely to come across this information at that time.
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