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Author Topic: "This movement is Snowballing, More in Keene, than Anywhere."  (Read 32718 times)

TEBON

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Re: "This movement is Snowballing, More in Keene, than Anywhere."
« Reply #15 on: April 26, 2009, 02:06:02 pm »

When every position elected is a liberty activist, can we then get rid of their positions?  Or will I have to keep paying to keep those people working on defending my liberty?  

Stealing is still stealing even if you're only stealing a little.

From the moment I started reading about the FSP it always sounded like the civil disobedience crowd was downplaying victories and great activism coming from the political side.  Lately, that's been slowing simply because it seems that some of the principled crowd is entering into this god awful system in a comedic attempt to point out it's incidiousness.   Also, lately, it seems the political crowd has taken quite a nasty position against those that are boots on the ground and pushing to take back their freedoms as opposed to defending the few freedoms we do have.

What's bringing more like minded (if you're principled) people to NH?  I haven't heard one person say they've moved because a few awesome freestaters were elected.  I've heard lots of people move because of the courage of the "weird, kooky" civil disobedience crowd.

If you're not free for yourself, how could you possibly be able to help others to be free?  Some people like to do the whole 'dress up' thing and put on a suit and feel important.  The political system is for people who want to be that type of superstar, a political one.  I'm all for voting to help, holding a sign, talking to people about good options to vote on spending bills.  I do this regularly.

The knocking down of spending bills is getting a lot of great conservatives to move to NH.  The courage and strength of the Keene freedom movement is getting a lot of great principled true libertarians to move to NH.   

It's too bad, I took the side of the politicos when the whole schism thing happened.  I was angry that the CD crowd wouldn't help out by even voting to help the politicos out.

Most of the politicos I've heard bitching (yeah a quite APT word) about the CD crowd are conservatives in the first place.  Basically, a person that calls themselves a "freestater" but would be very happy enslaving me to pay for their worldly desires.  That is not a libertarian.  That is not a principle I care to even deal with.  For this movement to work, it's going to take people pushing more towards their principle as opposed to giving in and hoping some people come around.  They're not coming around.

All in all, Keene is at Ghandi's "fight you" stage while the rest seem to still be at the "laughing at you" or "ignoring you" stage.  I would say that Seabrook in particular isn't even at a stage yet because no one even knows it exists here.

I'm going to wal-mart right now followed by a gas station.  I'll ask at least 5 people if they know what the FSP is.   The noise gets the idea out. . .the principles are what get people to change their minds and move towards freedom.
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Re: "This movement is Snowballing, More in Keene, than Anywhere."
« Reply #16 on: April 26, 2009, 02:12:32 pm »

Most of the politicos I've heard bitching (yeah a quite APT word) about the CD crowd are conservatives in the first place.  Basically, a person that calls themselves a "freestater" but would be very happy enslaving me to pay for their worldly desires.  That is not a libertarian.  

Not all freestaters are libertarians and most freestaters aren't anarchists.  So yeah, people can "call themselves freestaters" and still disagree with you.  That's why the use of the word is pointless for those that have already moved to NH (besides the fact that, after you've moved, the term free stater ceases to be important since you've already fulfilled your pledge).
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TEBON

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Re: "This movement is Snowballing, More in Keene, than Anywhere."
« Reply #17 on: April 26, 2009, 02:18:40 pm »

Dave, I thought you were aware of who was elected and where. ???  Keene has not elected anyone YET, but with the recent influx of newbies showing up, there is now a strong interest in pursuing that route as well.  So on that front, all I can say is "don't blink" as you'll have your FSP Bureaucrats in the Keene, sooner than later.
I don't think Keene people should be surprised that, since the Keeniacs don't make it clear that they don't represent the entire FSP, others will be sure to distance themselves from them in order to make that clear.  People like Amand P, in the early days of the FSP, were always quick to explain that the FSP was not an anarchist group.  I'm sure it was appreciated by the less-loud majority.

thank god it's not an anarchist group, I don't know what I'd do without the threat of someone kicking my door in at any moment without a way to defend myself.

The less loud majority seems like they're people that don't have a problem stealing from me to pay for their bombs and shiny police badges.  I think the less loud majority should start a project moving lots of sometimes liberty minded people to the same state.

How could anyone possibly represent the entire FSP?  I would like to be able to, so maybe a member of the Less Vocal Majority can explain to me how they differentiate from the normal conservative or liberal douches, and how they're going to help me be free?

I've seen the CD crowd show up for important things in Concord. . .I did myself.  Where are the politicos when it comes to civil disobedience?  That's right. . . you gotta maintain the "image" right?

Does this image include a swastika?  Should I be friends with those people?  When those majority finally get their smaller government are they going to be okay with me not participating in their little political game?  Are those people going to claim authority over something (or me)?  Are taxes going to be levied?  Is my property going to be mine, and not their 'small' governments?

Who will the majority bomb first?  I fear that the less vocal majority lately are more about "help us now, and then later we'll just take your money"

If so, count me out. . . when I say I don't want to hurt other people or steal their money, I mean it.  That's liberty.  That also disqualifies me from participating in the 'majority's'  games.

can people call themselves Freestaters and still steal my money?  When(if) those people decide to drop the term "freestater" from their vocabulary. . does that give them right to take my money to pay for their things?
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Dave Mincin

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Re: "This movement is Snowballing, More in Keene, than Anywhere."
« Reply #18 on: April 26, 2009, 06:04:01 pm »

Markus...Don't get me wrong.  I haven't been to Keene since last summer and that was to a party and Dawn and Bill's, so I really don't have a handle on what is going on
in Keene.  I think it is great folks are moving there, I just take issue with those who say it is the center of the freedom movement in NH.  You see I know a lot of folks, and
I know they are working there butts off all over NH promoting freedom.  They are the folks who don't look for fame or glory,show up in the paper, or on the videos, but when we need help, they are the first to
raise there hand in support.  I don't think the internet folks even realize what they are doing or how important they are to our movement.

Sometimes I get a little muffed, when I perceive there efforts are not being recognized.  For my thought, they are the folks who deserve the credit, and will be the reason
we save freedom.

So anyway, you know what they say about opinions, :)
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Re: "This movement is Snowballing, More in Keene, than Anywhere."
« Reply #19 on: April 26, 2009, 06:18:00 pm »

Markus...Don't get me wrong.  I haven't been to Keene since last summer and that was to a party and Dawn and Bill's, so I really don't have a handle on what is going on
in Keene.  I think it is great folks are moving there, I just take issue with those who say it is the center of the freedom movement in NH.  You see I know a lot of folks, and
I know they are working there butts off all over NH promoting freedom.  They are the folks who don't look for fame or glory,show up in the paper, or on the videos, but when we need help, they are the first to
raise there hand in support.  I don't think the internet folks even realize what they are doing or how important they are to our movement.

Sometimes I get a little muffed, when I perceive there efforts are not being recognized.  For my thought, they are the folks who deserve the credit, and will be the reason
we save freedom.

So anyway, you know what they say about opinions, :)

+1  There's tons of activism going on all over.  We don't have our own radio station out here, but we do meet up, and we do help to change things on the 'coast.  Far more has been going on just in Manchester than in Keene.  The CD and political work they do is far from kooky.  Manchester porcs have a lot of accomplishments to crow about, and plenty of close calls on tax and spending measures.  I don't believe it to be right when the 5% of folks who are doing the Keene thing are calling their town the center of all activism in the state.  That tends to downplay the work of the other 95%, including those of us who moved back in 2004--or even 2003.
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Re: "This movement is Snowballing, More in Keene, than Anywhere."
« Reply #20 on: April 26, 2009, 10:37:35 pm »

Quote: I veiw Keene's effort as attacking Tyranny, at its Root. ... 5 Activists arrested for peacefully being in a Public lobby and of course Sam I am, (for recording) presently in jail and building a huge civil rights case, and whose story, I hear, is starting to attract National Headlines with many others around the Globe hearing about it as well, as I think people are hungry for this. Unquote.
* I'm confused as to how people who understand and deplore statism can expect National Headlines about Libertarian civil disobedience to be given a positive spin by the statist lapdog media and expect any Supreme Court would make a finding that truly supports liberty and reduces statism. If anything positive comes of high-level political activism of such kinds, I'll be both pleased and shocked.
* However, Libertarians are already a cross between Liberals and Conservatives, which means we're "moderates", and we should capitalize on that and try to win both liberals and conservatives to the Libertarian cause by being friendly and understanding of both sides' concerns, instead of scaring both sides with impressions of being radicals or terrorists. I'm not saying that Keeners don't seem to try to be friendly, but I think we all need to be mindful of how people perceive us and try to be perceived realistically as true "patriots" or true friends of all. It sounds like Keeners are fairly mindful of that, but I don't know what evidence you all have that civil disobedience will work any more. It seems to me that the statists learned long ago how to spin that and everything else to their own advantage.

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dalebert

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Re: "This movement is Snowballing, More in Keene, than Anywhere."
« Reply #21 on: April 26, 2009, 11:37:27 pm »

That quote can sound misleading out of context. I know that I was feeling incredibly optimistic about the FSP in general and particularly in Keene. My personal experience is Keene, after all. But more importantly, we've had a recent boom in new movers that is hugely disproportionate to the past numbers, i.e. "snow-balling". The reason for that boom, based on what we hear str8 out of the mouths of the new movers, is that they were inspired by recent CD activism like Ian's couch incident and now Sam's and the other 6 who got arrested or summonses.

So I think we should all be optimistic. Numbers seem to be up all around and we should all be patting each other on the back and sharing in some renewed inspiration for future activism in all the various forms that we choose to partake of.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2009, 11:50:07 pm by dalebert »
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dalebert

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Re: "This movement is Snowballing, More in Keene, than Anywhere."
« Reply #22 on: April 26, 2009, 11:56:05 pm »

... Keene is the Liberty Headquarters of the World ...

I think we should be careful to clarify that it is, or at least is quickly becoming, the Liberty Media Capitol. I'm sure I've said as much but it's important that you don't leave out that key word. Otherwise, I'd not be surprised that some people would feel like their activism efforts are being downplayed.

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Re: "This movement is Snowballing, More in Keene, than Anywhere."
« Reply #23 on: April 27, 2009, 12:59:44 am »

Quote: I veiw Keene's effort as attacking Tyranny, at its Root. ... 5 Activists arrested for peacefully being in a Public lobby and of course Sam I am, (for recording) presently in jail and building a huge civil rights case, and whose story, I hear, is starting to attract National Headlines with many others around the Globe hearing about it as well, as I think people are hungry for this. Unquote.
* I'm confused as to how people who understand and deplore statism can expect National Headlines about Libertarian civil disobedience to be given a positive spin by the statist lapdog media and expect any Supreme Court would make a finding that truly supports liberty and reduces statism. If anything positive comes of high-level political activism of such kinds, I'll be both pleased and shocked.


I'm sorry you're confused, let me try again.  People can just do Nothing because they've given up and know better than everyone else, or they can take a stand and try something, in order to get something started.  Keene Sentenial Headlines were made, some bloggers picked it, People from as far as Australia and beyond heard about it via Free Talk Live and it's consequently encouraging even more people to move to New Hampshire, most likely Keene, and there's nothing like more new blood than you expected, to get people excited (and we don't know of how many other untolds are now considering moving.

Like Dale said, I think everyone who's helped make the FSP what it is should be patting themselves on the back and feeling good about the project.

I can only see 100% good coming out of this "high level political activism."   I'd also say start getting prepared to be shocked because you ain't nothing yet. :) 

PS: Taken on it's face, the word Snowballing in this context means, to grow the fastest and from what I've heard, Keene has experienced the biggest number of new movers recently due to its local  CD.  It doesn't imply by any means that Keene has and is doing All the work for more Liberty and to draw that conclusion is to mistake it's meaning.  I would encourage everyone who's excited about the progress they are making to post it, etc. and that way you can let others and potential movers more aware of your activities and thus attract more people to your area.

PSS: Dale, Thanks for adding the word Media, It was there in my mind but I guess it didn't make it to my fingers (I'll go back and Edit).   And sorry for putting your quote out of context, I didn't think it was... because I thought it was obvious to everyone ! (but of course that's just my opinion! :) )

« Last Edit: April 27, 2009, 12:09:05 pm by Markus »
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George Donnelly

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Re: "This movement is Snowballing, More in Keene, than Anywhere."
« Reply #24 on: April 27, 2009, 03:07:48 pm »

Dave, if they're not tooting their own horns about their liberty activism they're not maximizing their effectiveness. Pls pass on any info to me so I can toot their horns for them.
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Dave Mincin

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Re: "This movement is Snowballing, More in Keene, than Anywhere."
« Reply #25 on: April 27, 2009, 07:20:05 pm »

Dave, if they're not tooting their own horns about their liberty activism they're not maximizing their effectiveness. Pls pass on any info to me so I can toot their horns for them.

That's a fair question George, so I will try and give it a truthful answer.

First 4 years ago, we, meaning me a a couple freestaters, and allies, got involved in Dover, with the folks who live in Dover leading the charge.  We passed out fliers, knocked on doors, and got petitions signed.  The end result was we helped get a spending cap, put in place.  This was before the big push from the NH Advantage.  We did it, and when I say we I mean the folks from Dover.  We were just helping our neighbors get it done.  And to my way of thinking the only way to stop the growth of government is to take the money away, so I see that as a real win for freedom.

Just recently Rochester passed a spending cap.  Again with the help of freedom folks, but low key without a bunch of yelling and shouting, just good neighbors.  Bet you didn't see anything in the press about that, but that is just the way we like it.  I just believe the folks in internet land should be aware of what is really going on, and how important it is.

And the Ron Paul campaign.  I was a bit involved, even had a title....Co-chair for Strafford countyl.  Folks worked there butts off, but we lost, but as I see it we won!  I can think of at least a dozen NH folks who were not involved in the freedom movement here, that now are.  Folks if something needs to be done will help if there schedule permits.  Some may not think that is big, but I do!

I'm not sure if many of the newer folks know how important our town meeting are.  In our most recent deliberative session here in Barrington, every spending increase was defeated.  Again we didn't do it, but we helped our neighbors get it done.  Heck, we even chopped 300k+ off the school budget.

I'm on our Budget Advisory Committee, and I know at least 4 folks who are on there town committees.  My guess it there many more that I am not aware of.  We are in positions were we can help stop the crazy spending, but we need more folks getting involved in their communities, including Keene.

What about the 4 state rep we now have in Concord.  True I lost my election, but I do believe that our effort helped get 2 freedom reps elected in our district that were not there before.

I'm not about telling others how to promote freedom, but I do sometimes get concerned when I see the stuff coming out of Keene, always saying these freestaters did this.  It gives the perception of outsiders trying to tell the locals what to do, and folks don't like that.  Do your thing for sure, but personally I just wish you would do it as concerned citizens of Keene, and not as freestaters.

When I took the pledge, I promised to move to NH, make it my home, and work to promote freedom.  I see the Free State Project as the Bus that got me to NH.  I'm thankful for the ride, but now NH is my home!  Seems to me working with my neighbors who share my views is the way to go.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2009, 07:29:31 pm by Dave Mincin »
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Re: "This movement is Snowballing, More in Keene, than Anywhere."
« Reply #26 on: April 27, 2009, 07:22:31 pm »

I'm not about telling others how to promote freedom, but I do sometimes get concerned when I see the stuff coming out of Keene, always saying these freestaters did this.  It give the perception of outsiders trying to tell the locals what to do, and folks don't like that.  Do your thing for sure, but personally I just wish you would do it as concerned citizens of Keene, and not as freestaters.

When I took the pledge, I promised to move to NH, make it my home, and work to promote freedom.  I see the Free State Project as the Bus that got me to NH.  I'm thankful for the ride, but now NH is my home!  Seems to me working with my neighbors who share my views it the way to go.

This times 1,000,000!!!
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George Donnelly

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Re: "This movement is Snowballing, More in Keene, than Anywhere."
« Reply #27 on: April 27, 2009, 07:31:21 pm »

Ok Dave but why don't you want any publicity for your work? I don't get that. How do you expect to get more like-minded folk to help you if you're tight-lipped about what you're doing?

If you want to run for office, by all means, but as for me I consider that immoral. Government is an initiation of force, it's the only way for it to do business, and you don't set people free by initiating force against them.

I understand where you're coming from. You should be able to understand where the outside-the-system types are coming from too, right?
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Dave Mincin

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Re: "This movement is Snowballing, More in Keene, than Anywhere."
« Reply #28 on: April 27, 2009, 07:48:25 pm »

George you have a right to your thought.  From my perspective government is here to stay whether we like it or not.
Even a revolution would only bring another government.  We can either try to change it peacefully or not.

You asked for some of the things we are doing and I tried to give you an honest answer, I'm sure I could give
you more if I thought about it.

Personally I'm interested in results and not theory.  I wish we were perfect, and the world was too, but that is not
reality.

As I see it, given your thoughts, what are you going to do to promote freedom when you get to NH?

Your point to horn tooting is well taken.  Personally I just don't believe in horn tooting, but I do believe in the Folks.

Perhaps the best answer to that is to come to NH, and see what is really going on, then find your place.
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Antijingoist

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Re: "This movement is Snowballing, More in Keene, than Anywhere."
« Reply #29 on: April 27, 2009, 09:28:39 pm »

Personally I'm interested in results and not theory.  I wish we were perfect, and the world was too, but that is not
reality.
Results in this case=people moving up.
Jesse doing the stuff Keeniacs do is proof that there are more keeniacs in the world that will wake up or become inspired by what keeniacs do.
You doing your stuff is proof that there are more of you in the world and that will wake up or become inspired by what you do. There are people you will never reach that someone from keene will reach because they planted a garden in the town square, refused to stop recording, drove an unregistered vehicle, etc.
And there are people that we won't reach because they like your results more. This is not theory. A friend of mine that was a Republican woke up to the truth after watching Jesse burn the flag. I was inspired to move up here after Ian got arrested, and Andrew went to jail with his CD.
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