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Author Topic: I feel like I love free markets but I cant defend them  (Read 7393 times)

acejoca

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I feel like I love free markets but I cant defend them
« on: August 13, 2008, 09:56:56 pm »

Hey everyone. I have been contemplating moving to new hampshire for the free state project but have been reconsidering the serious move and wanted to get input on the reasoning why. I have read and listened to a lot of podcast about free markets and honestly everything i hear I like. I love the non aggression axiom but when friends debate me I feel I cant debate my own views. So I feel like I should hold of on moving and try to engage in more debate while I am away to focus more on what I believe. Ya know its like when I hear them debating me sometimes what they say seems hard to deny so I found myself with conflicting ideas. I know people might want me to list those ideas my friends say but I am just in the zone of confusion or something and just having an answer to one or two of the questions he ask doesn’t help me answer future questions that arise from him. I guess no one will ever know the answers to every question for sure but I feel like I am not grounded enough.

Now a little history about me: I got into the ron paul movement and then went from there doing research and listening to podcast from mises.org so that’s where I get most of my information. I feel I am pretty close to anarcho-capitalist and every time I listed to mises.org it always rings so true to me but again once confronted by someone I just cant debate them.  I just don’t know what to do. I don’t want to move if I cant even articulate and debate my ideas with other people if I don’t fell I have a strong firm foundation you know.

Are there other people who started out like this? I feel like I just need to do more research but what do you guys think and feel about this?
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Jitgos

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Re: I feel like I love free markets but I cant defend them
« Reply #1 on: August 13, 2008, 10:57:53 pm »

We all have gone through a process to get to the understanding that voluntaryism "is the way". Reading mises.org is the best place to learn for sure. Also, I would strongly recommend listening to the nationally syndicated radio show and #1 podcast Free Talk Live http://freetalklive.com. Are you familiar with the show? They cover all kinds of topics every night from a liberty standpoint and you could even call with any questions you have. Besides that make sure that you've already signed up for the free state project and move as soon as you can. Peace.
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sj

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Re: I feel like I love free markets but I cant defend them
« Reply #2 on: August 14, 2008, 12:10:17 am »

An amazing resource for anyone wanting to learn about the morality of free markets and the good effects that come therefrom, as well as the negative results that come from command economies, is http://www.ideachannel.tv.  There, you can watch Milton Friedman's TV series "Free to Choose" and learn from the master the what's and why's of free markets. 

I would also recommend reading the books "Economics in One Lesson" and "The Law" (by Frederic Bastiat). 

Come and discuss some of your conflicts on the political section of this forum.  I'd be interested to hear the arguments you're hearing.

Quote
Are there other people who started out like this? I feel like I just need to do more research but what do you guys think and feel about this?

Every one of us started out like this, and I'm not done with the process of working things out myself.  It's good that you're honest enough with yourself to work out the contradictions you see in your own philosophy.  That's the mark of a real truth-seeker.  You'll fit in well around here  8)
« Last Edit: August 14, 2008, 12:13:09 am by sjhipple »
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NHArticleTen

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Re: I feel like I love free markets but I cant defend them
« Reply #3 on: August 14, 2008, 08:45:38 am »


www.adventuresinlegalland.com

and...

at the end of an argument between a brick wall and a tricycle...the brick wall is still there...

Marc Stevens will not only provide you with a big bulldozer...he will show you that "there is no spoon"...or brick wall either...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marvin_Heemeyer

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=24n77GgRtrw

margomaps

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Re: I feel like I love free markets but I cant defend them
« Reply #4 on: August 14, 2008, 09:09:21 am »

It's understandable to start to question your beliefs when you lack some of the words to defend them.  That's perfectly normal, especially for someone who is pretty new to a particular set of ideas (I'm making a temporal inference based on your Ron Paul comment).  I think it's important to feel confident and grounded in your world view.  If it takes a bit more studying, understanding, and time to reach that point, then I suggest you take it.

However, realize that you'll perpetually encounter people with very different views from yours -- some of whom are masters of words and wily debaters.  You cannot expect to "win" every debate, if winning means that the other person acknowledges your superior position.  As you and those with whom you debate become more comfortable and grounded in your respective ideologies, you'll probably find the debates increasingly frustrating and fruitless, as will they.  About all it's good for is honing your debate skills so that you can more easily dispatch with a less experienced debater who has a naive argument.

Of course you could always make things easier on yourself and just come to NH where you'll find yourself in the company of like-minded individuals.  And if you miss debating those free-market-hating socialists?  Don't worry, we have plenty of those in NH as well.   :o   :P
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MaineShark

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Re: I feel like I love free markets but I cant defend them
« Reply #5 on: August 14, 2008, 11:01:03 am »

Every one of us started out like this...

Please don't make universal statements like that.  Not all of us did.

Joe
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rossby

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Re: I feel like I love free markets but I cant defend them
« Reply #6 on: August 14, 2008, 11:37:34 am »

1¢: Make sure debating is even worth it in a given forum. For some people, no amount of debate will change their minds. So pick your "battles" wisely. (i.e. don't waste your time.)

2¢: If you are debating with someone, don't let the "opponent" to tell you what your position is. For example, Bob wants to debate you over welfare programs. And Bob asks why you don't want to help people. Hit the brakes there--if that's not what you're saying! Instead, you might correct him by saying that you don't oppose helping people--you oppose stealing from one group to help another group. Make sure to explicitly draw those distinctions (many simply cannot or wilfully choose not to). Now, Bob would probably respond with something like: "it's okay, because they need help"; or "but it's the law"; or "people wouldn't help if no one forced them to"; or something equally nonsensical. But now you're in a position to pose questions to Bob about the rationale of his justifications. If you can get him to reason, on his own, that they don't make sense, you're in a much better position to "win".
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J’raxis 270145

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Re: I feel like I love free markets but I cant defend them
« Reply #7 on: August 14, 2008, 09:16:30 pm »

1¢: Make sure debating is even worth it in a given forum. For some people, no amount of debate will change their minds. So pick your "battles" wisely. (i.e. don't waste your time.)

2¢: If you are debating with someone, don't let the "opponent" to tell you what your position is. For example, Bob wants to debate you over welfare programs. And Bob asks why you don't want to help people. Hit the brakes there--if that's not what you're saying! Instead, you might correct him by saying that you don't oppose helping people--you oppose stealing from one group to help another group. Make sure to explicitly draw those distinctions (many simply cannot or wilfully choose not to). Now, Bob would probably respond with something like: "it's okay, because they need help"; or "but it's the law"; or "people wouldn't help if no one forced them to"; or something equally nonsensical. But now you're in a position to pose questions to Bob about the rationale of his justifications. If you can get him to reason, on his own, that they don't make sense, you're in a much better position to "win".

And usually, when you’re debating someone, you’re not going to change their mind—it’s about changing the minds of the people in the audience.
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Dreepa

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Re: I feel like I love free markets but I cant defend them
« Reply #8 on: August 14, 2008, 09:54:45 pm »

Hey everyone. I have been contemplating moving to new hampshire for the free state project but have been reconsidering the serious move and wanted to get input on the reasoning why. I have read and listened to a lot of podcast about free markets and honestly everything i hear I like. I love the non aggression axiom but when friends debate me I feel I cant debate my own views. So I feel like I should hold of on moving and try to engage in more debate while I am away to focus more on what I believe. Ya know its like when I hear them debating me sometimes what they say seems hard to deny so I found myself with conflicting ideas. I know people might want me to list those ideas my friends say but I am just in the zone of confusion or something and just having an answer to one or two of the questions he ask doesn’t help me answer future questions that arise from him. I guess no one will ever know the answers to every question for sure but I feel like I am not grounded enough.

Now a little history about me: I got into the ron paul movement and then went from there doing research and listening to podcast from mises.org so that’s where I get most of my information. I feel I am pretty close to anarcho-capitalist and every time I listed to mises.org it always rings so true to me but again once confronted by someone I just cant debate them.  I just don’t know what to do. I don’t want to move if I cant even articulate and debate my ideas with other people if I don’t fell I have a strong firm foundation you know.

Are there other people who started out like this? I feel like I just need to do more research but what do you guys think and feel about this?


Welcome!
Come anyway.. you don't have to be 'pure' (although some will try and debate that you must)... as long as you want to work for a smaller gov and meet the criteria of the SOI  you will be welcomed in NH.
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Keyser Soce

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Re: I feel like I love free markets but I cant defend them
« Reply #9 on: August 14, 2008, 10:06:12 pm »

Read Atlas Shrugged, a defense of capitalism. It takes awhile to acquire an opinion. 
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sj

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Re: I feel like I love free markets but I cant defend them
« Reply #10 on: August 15, 2008, 09:39:48 am »

I think one of my favorite parts of Free to Choose is this part: "there is not a person in the world who knows how to make this pencil."
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rossby

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Re: I feel like I love free markets but I cant defend them
« Reply #11 on: August 15, 2008, 10:15:48 am »

1¢: Make sure debating is even worth it in a given forum. For some people, no amount of debate will change their minds. So pick your "battles" wisely. (i.e. don't waste your time.)

2¢: If you are debating with someone, don't let the "opponent" to tell you what your position is. For example, Bob wants to debate you over welfare programs. And Bob asks why you don't want to help people. Hit the brakes there--if that's not what you're saying! Instead, you might correct him by saying that you don't oppose helping people--you oppose stealing from one group to help another group. Make sure to explicitly draw those distinctions (many simply cannot or wilfully choose not to). Now, Bob would probably respond with something like: "it's okay, because they need help"; or "but it's the law"; or "people wouldn't help if no one forced them to"; or something equally nonsensical. But now you're in a position to pose questions to Bob about the rationale of his justifications. If you can get him to reason, on his own, that they don't make sense, you're in a much better position to "win".

And usually, when you’re debating someone, you’re not going to change their mind—it’s about changing the minds of the people in the audience.

I didn't mean a formal debate :P and you can change it to his or her if you want  ;)
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Sam A. Robrin

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Re: I feel like I love free markets but I cant defend them
« Reply #12 on: August 15, 2008, 03:48:14 pm »

1¢: Make sure debating is even worth it in a given forum. For some people, no amount of debate will change their minds. So pick your "battles" wisely. (i.e. don't waste your time.)

2¢: If you are debating with someone, don't let the "opponent" to tell you what your position is. For example, Bob wants to debate you over welfare programs. And Bob asks why you don't want to help people. Hit the brakes there--if that's not what you're saying! Instead, you might correct him by saying that you don't oppose helping people--you oppose stealing from one group to help another group. Make sure to explicitly draw those distinctions (many simply cannot or wilfully choose not to). Now, Bob would probably respond with something like: "it's okay, because they need help"; or "but it's the law"; or "people wouldn't help if no one forced them to"; or something equally nonsensical. But now you're in a position to pose questions to Bob about the rationale of his justifications. If you can get him to reason, on his own, that they don't make sense, you're in a much better position to "win".

Also, always keep in mind that when Bob has to distort your point of view in order to discredit it, it's because there's something about his own point of view that he has to hide--and it's always the inevitable covert gun present in any pro-statist argument.
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anon37268573

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Re: I feel like I love free markets but I cant defend them
« Reply #13 on: August 15, 2008, 04:17:39 pm »

Are there other people who started out like this? I feel like I just need to do more research but what do you guys think and feel about this?

I don't think you should worry about it so much.  Would you expect to agree with every plank of any political party's platform?  It's healthy to hold your own position on some matters of somewhat defined belief systems, like Libertarianism.

I feel the same way that you do.  But, about different issues.  I consider myself a libertarian.  I've read all of Rand's work and that of most of the other prominent thinkers.  I also regularly read Reason magazine.  While I agree with most of the view points that people would consider libertarian there are some such views that I strongly disagree with.

There's plenty of room for moderates in the FSP.  NH may look small on the map.  But, it's actually a pretty big state.
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Brettp76

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Re: I feel like I love free markets but I cant defend them
« Reply #14 on: August 17, 2008, 03:01:28 pm »

Read Atlas Shrugged, a defense of capitalism. It takes awhile to acquire an opinion. 

I'll second this piece of advice but would add that Rand's ferocious defense of capitatlism is really a derivative of the more fundamental tenets of her philosophy. Once you accept reason as your epistimelogical base, objective reality for your metaphysics, and rational self interest as your ethical ideal, you won't exactly be clamoring for universal health care.  ;D

 

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"My philosophy, in essence, is the concept of man as a heroic being, with his own happiness as the moral purpose of his life, with productive achievement as his noblest activity, and reason as his only absolute." Ayn Rand
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