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Author Topic: 17 and ready to move -- but can I legally?  (Read 20346 times)

MercuryLime

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17 and ready to move -- but can I legally?
« on: April 25, 2008, 08:39:56 pm »

Hey,

My name is Patrick, and I am a 17-year-old Kansan. I'm a libertarian/minarchist video game designer / blogger and I'm attempting to simulate my rite of passage by traveling throughout America this summer.

I have been searching for weeks on legal info regarding my dilemma. Maybe you guys can help.

Simply put: I'm 17, but if I move to another state, is it in Kansas' jurisdiction to pull me back? BTW, I'm graduating a year early--this May--so I'll have my HS diploma and everything. Also, my parents do not support my desire to move out. They want control of me 'till I'm 18.

After finding FSP, I know where in America I will probably end up residing. Finding a like-mined community like this is a dream come true for me. NOBODY I know in person is as strong an advocate for liberty as I am, and I was starting to give up hope that people like you existed in significant quantities.

Anybody know the legality of my situation? I'd like to end up in NH at the end of this summer and start building connections in the community there. Is it possible for me to legally do that?

I'll ask in a legal forum also, so don't worry about it if you don't know. I am so excited to be a part of FSP and I can't wait to surround myself with people who actually believe in limited government and individual liberty! I'll go to PorcFest if I can make it but it's coming up really soon and I don't know if I can make it there in time. Plus, NH will probably ruin my experience of the rest of America, because the rest of America won't measure up. ;)
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rossby

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Re: 17 and ready to move -- but can I legally?
« Reply #1 on: April 25, 2008, 09:42:21 pm »

Welcome to the forum!

I have been searching for weeks on legal info regarding my dilemma. Maybe you guys can help.

Simply put: I'm 17, but if I move to another state, is it in Kansas' jurisdiction to pull me back? BTW, I'm graduating a year early--this May--so I'll have my HS diploma and everything.

[...]

Anybody know the legality of my situation? I[...] Is it possible for me to legally do that?

The best way to get an accurate answer to your question is to consult with a Kansan attorney. Particularly, someone who practices family law. For your specific question, I can't imagine getting an answer would be that expensive. ($200 would be on the very high-end; a good practitioner shouldn't need to look this up.) Alternatively, you could go to your local courthouse's library and research the answer--but obviously, it's more time-consuming. Start with an Encyclopedia of Kansan law. You're probably looking for something like "Age of Majority" or "Emancipation of Minors". You may also consider checking the Interwebs--I'd suggest searching the Kansas Bar Association web site. The answers are available. Sorry, I can't give any specific advice or recommendations.

'Course, if you're 17... you could just... wait a few ticks.

Quote
Also, my parents do not support my desire to move out. They want control of me 'till I'm 18.

Perhaps they are worried for your safety. It's quite a big move. Additionally, increased responsibility comes with increased independence. Do you have adequate financial resources to support yourself? (that's rhetorical!) Two-way communication is key, of course. Don't isolate yourself from your family. As many FSPers will attest, family is something you can very easily miss when you move half-way across the country.

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Plus, NH will probably ruin my experience of the rest of America, because the rest of America won't measure up. ;)

It's a big wide world out there. ;D
« Last Edit: April 25, 2008, 09:44:02 pm by B.D. Ross »
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MercuryLime

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Re: 17 and ready to move -- but can I legally?
« Reply #2 on: April 25, 2008, 10:12:59 pm »

Thanks mate. I don't know what will happen when I leave, but it's something I want to do. If I waited until I was 18, it just wouldn't be the same.

I'll file for emancipation ASAP but it usually takes months and I plan to leave by the end of May. Hopefully I'll be able to make some money while I'm traveling. I really think the experience will be life changing so I have no idea what the future holds beyond the next couple months.

If not, I'll come back to Kansas, make some money, THEN get emancipated and come to NH. And if I can't get emancipated, well, I'll come in 2009.
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chimney

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Re: 17 and ready to move -- but can I legally?
« Reply #3 on: April 26, 2008, 05:25:35 am »

Good luck, I hope you can!

It confuses me when I see threads like this as I've always thought the US was freer than the UK but odd laws seem to be coming up like gambling being illegal and a 17 year old who may not be able to legally move ??? Here in the UK once you're 16 your parents have no legal control over you and you can move where you like.

AncapAgency

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Re: 17 and ready to move -- but can I legally?
« Reply #4 on: April 26, 2008, 05:59:24 am »

Well, as long as you can avoid capture until you turn 18, you'll probably be alright.  You probably wouldn't have too much trouble finding folks to help you avoid capture in NH.
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NHArticleTen

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Re: 17 and ready to move -- but can I legally?
« Reply #5 on: April 26, 2008, 10:09:44 am »


If you're really serious then lets look into this a little further before you go getting all "legal" and stuff...

Many years ago it was very simple to "hitch" across the country making money/bartering your time for room and board as you went along...

Now that is most certainly NOT the case and, believe it or not, there ARE people out there who will befriend you just to take advantage of you(at a minimum) and a rare few that might even do you bodily harm, injury, or death...(if you've never seen the movie "EasyRider" you might check it out - http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0064276/)

I'd imagine things would be much better for you all around if you had your parent's blessings.  Are you able and willing to fill us in a little on why you don't think they would approve of you going someplace where you will already have hundreds of wonderful friends(sincere friends, not the users and looters you're probably used to if you went to the public fools indoctrination centers)...

If your parents can report you as a runaway you'll be put into a nationwide system and your photo will be passed around to thousands of bureaucrats in an effort to capture you and take you back to your parents(or put you in the custody of child protective services)...

So, I hope you see the importance of trying to work with your parents, and not against them...

We'll try to help, we have lots of different people doing different things...

Surely someone can help you make them more at ease...


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sj

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Re: 17 and ready to move -- but can I legally?
« Reply #6 on: April 26, 2008, 11:26:18 am »

The only people who can tell an unemancipated minor where to live are his parents or legal guardians.
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rossby

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Re: 17 and ready to move -- but can I legally?
« Reply #7 on: April 26, 2008, 02:45:54 pm »

The only people who can tell an unemancipated minor where to live are his parents or legal guardians.

Don't forget your local judge.

---EDIT---
I thought about this for a while. Anyone can tell a minor where to live. Making a minor live somewhere. That can be a bit tougher. Ever tried to feed strained carrots to a baby? Hard to make even a baby do that...
« Last Edit: April 26, 2008, 03:19:18 pm by B.D. Ross »
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rossby

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Re: 17 and ready to move -- but can I legally?
« Reply #8 on: April 26, 2008, 03:08:06 pm »

Good luck, I hope you can!

It confuses me when I see threads like this as I've always thought the US was freer than the UK but odd laws seem to be coming up like gambling being illegal and a 17 year old who may not be able to legally move ??? Here in the UK once you're 16 your parents have no legal control over you and you can move where you like.

You must be in Scotland. I thought the age was higher in the UK.

As you've probably heard over-and-over, this is a thing that varies from state to state. In most states, the age is 18. It's 19 in a few. I think there's a couple states--and I know the District of Columbia--it's 21. I believe it was also 21 in ancient Rome.

The currently claimed reason for these ages is to encourage people to stay in secondary school longer. i.e. "If my parents support me, I won't have to work and I can stay in high school." ... I've never met anyone that's admitted to this mode of thinking. Pretty laughable, IMHO.

Many states have an exception if you're married at a younger age. In some states, if you're 16 and married, you're considered an adult. Many states also allow a minor to be emancipated from the supporting guardians if the minor can show a good reason for it.

Personally, I don't think it serves much of a purpose to set the age that high. And I wouldn't be surprised if it does more harm than good. Parents who support their children probably don't tie their support "obligations" to any particular age. In the U.S. now, many parents now support their children even after they enter college. Neglectful parents are neglectful parents and you can't make them support their kids. So now you're stuck with unsupported (er, state-supported) children who can't work, vote, or do anything they need to do. (It's a raw deal, life isn't fair, etc...) 'Course, State's services is more than happy to step in and pretend it can fix everything. Personally, I'd like to see the age lowered greatly. Don't think it'll ever happen here. Gotta protect the children from themselves.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2008, 03:13:34 pm by B.D. Ross »
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rossby

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Re: 17 and ready to move -- but can I legally?
« Reply #9 on: April 26, 2008, 03:46:49 pm »

If you're really serious then lets look into this a little further before you go getting all "legal" and stuff...

Many years ago it was very simple to "hitch" across the country making money/bartering your time for room and board as you went along...

Now that is most certainly NOT the case and, believe it or not, there ARE people out there who will befriend you just to take advantage of you(at a minimum) and a rare few that might even do you bodily harm, injury, or death...(if you've never seen the movie "EasyRider" you might check it out - http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0064276/)

I'd imagine things would be much better for you all around if you had your parent's blessings.  Are you able and willing to fill us in a little on why you don't think they would approve of you going someplace where you will already have hundreds of wonderful friends(sincere friends, not the users and looters you're probably used to if you went to the public fools indoctrination centers)...

If your parents can report you as a runaway you'll be put into a nationwide system and your photo will be passed around to thousands of bureaucrats in an effort to capture you and take you back to your parents(or put you in the custody of child protective services)...

So, I hope you see the importance of trying to work with your parents, and not against them...

We'll try to help, we have lots of different people doing different things...

Surely someone can help you make them more at ease...

Am I actually going to agree with Powerchuter?! Yeah. Think that's right on the money. Particularly:

Quote
Many years ago it was very simple to "hitch" across the country making money/bartering your time for room and board as you went along...

It's very hard to do this and earn enough money even for food.

Quote
Now that is most certainly NOT the case and, believe it or not, there ARE people out there who will befriend you just to take advantage of you (at a minimum) and a rare few that might even do you bodily harm, injury, or death...(if you've never seen the movie "EasyRider" you might check it out - http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0064276/)

Very true. As a younger person without significant financial resources, you're especially vulnerable. I could never ever recommend that. Without proper planning and resources, it's just asking for trouble. I'm not sure what the purpose of a simulated rite of passage is. But there's nothing inherently difficult about traveling across the U.S.--many people do it for recreation and vacation.

Quote
I'd imagine things would be much better for you all around if you had your parent's blessings.

...

So, I hope you see the importance of trying to work with your parents, and not against them...

This is probably the most important part. Really can't emphasize how important it is. Suppose you absolutely have your mind made up, and you're going to move to NH. And when you hit 18, there's nothing your parents can legally do to stop you. But just turning 18 won't erase their concerns! If my [hypothetical] kid just disappeared, I'd be worried sick! If a rite of passage is really what you need, I'd propose something much more difficult than romping about the U.S.: secure the understanding and blessings of your family. You could go anywhere in the world, and they'd still be left wondering and worrying. So fix it while you can.
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chimney

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Re: 17 and ready to move -- but can I legally?
« Reply #10 on: April 26, 2008, 04:17:59 pm »

You must be in Scotland. I thought the age was higher in the UK.

No, England. A lot of stuff is 16 here which is why there's a campaign for votes at 16. It's when you can leave school, get married, have sex, get a full time job, leave home, etc. The notable older stuff is 17 to learn to drive and 18 to buy cigarettes and alcohol.

rossby

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Re: 17 and ready to move -- but can I legally?
« Reply #11 on: April 26, 2008, 05:41:34 pm »

You must be in Scotland. I thought the age was higher in the UK.

No, England. A lot of stuff is 16 here which is why there's a campaign for votes at 16. It's when you can leave school, get married, have sex, get a full time job, leave home, etc. The notable older stuff is 17 to learn to drive and 18 to buy cigarettes and alcohol.

In many states, you can do those things listed above before 18. Again, it varies from state to state. When I was a teenager in Michigan, we could leave school at 16; marry w/o guardian's consent at 18; marry w/ written consent at 16; work at age 16 (but not full-time if you were in school); consent to sex at 16; get a driver's license at 16; vote at 18; buy alcohol & tobacco at 21. 18 was (and still is, I believe) the age of majority there. After then, you're considered a legal adult. The alcohol/tobacco age limit never made sense given that. In terms of modern law, we're confusing ages of license and ages of majority. In reality, according to me, there should be no difference.
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sj

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Re: 17 and ready to move -- but can I legally?
« Reply #12 on: April 26, 2008, 06:51:26 pm »

The only people who can tell an unemancipated minor where to live are his parents or legal guardians.

Don't forget your local judge.


The judge can only order a child removed if he feels the child is somehow in danger.  Otherwise, it's up to the legal guardian. 

I'm not a lawyer
« Last Edit: April 26, 2008, 06:55:04 pm by sjhipple »
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rossby

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Re: 17 and ready to move -- but can I legally?
« Reply #13 on: April 26, 2008, 08:13:33 pm »

The judge can only order a child removed if he feels the child is somehow in danger.  Otherwise, it's up to the legal guardian.

Judges exercise very wide discretion. And, depending on state and circumstances, can alter guardianship.

I recall a particular case I was involved in where a rural farmer and his wife gave up two children to child services quite a long time ago. Twelve years later, same farmer has another kid--he wants to take care of the child this time. Human services swoops in; a little known statute allowing human services to take a child if a parent has ever voluntarily put a child up for adoption. At the custody hearing, came out the the human services rep was doing some no-nos. Luckily, the judge saw the light. Could have very easily went the other way.
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NHArticleTen

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Re: 17 and ready to move -- but can I legally?
« Reply #14 on: April 27, 2008, 07:24:29 am »

If you're really serious then lets look into this a little further before you go getting all "legal" and stuff...

Many years ago it was very simple to "hitch" across the country making money/bartering your time for room and board as you went along...

Now that is most certainly NOT the case and, believe it or not, there ARE people out there who will befriend you just to take advantage of you(at a minimum) and a rare few that might even do you bodily harm, injury, or death...(if you've never seen the movie "EasyRider" you might check it out - http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0064276/)

I'd imagine things would be much better for you all around if you had your parent's blessings.  Are you able and willing to fill us in a little on why you don't think they would approve of you going someplace where you will already have hundreds of wonderful friends(sincere friends, not the users and looters you're probably used to if you went to the public fools indoctrination centers)...

If your parents can report you as a runaway you'll be put into a nationwide system and your photo will be passed around to thousands of bureaucrats in an effort to capture you and take you back to your parents(or put you in the custody of child protective services)...

So, I hope you see the importance of trying to work with your parents, and not against them...

We'll try to help, we have lots of different people doing different things...

Surely someone can help you make them more at ease...

Am I actually going to agree with Powerchuter?! Yeah. Think that's right on the money. Particularly:

Quote
Many years ago it was very simple to "hitch" across the country making money/bartering your time for room and board as you went along...

It's very hard to do this and earn enough money even for food.

Quote
Now that is most certainly NOT the case and, believe it or not, there ARE people out there who will befriend you just to take advantage of you (at a minimum) and a rare few that might even do you bodily harm, injury, or death...(if you've never seen the movie "EasyRider" you might check it out - http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0064276/)

Very true. As a younger person without significant financial resources, you're especially vulnerable. I could never ever recommend that. Without proper planning and resources, it's just asking for trouble. I'm not sure what the purpose of a simulated rite of passage is. But there's nothing inherently difficult about traveling across the U.S.--many people do it for recreation and vacation.

Quote
I'd imagine things would be much better for you all around if you had your parent's blessings.

...

So, I hope you see the importance of trying to work with your parents, and not against them...

This is probably the most important part. Really can't emphasize how important it is. Suppose you absolutely have your mind made up, and you're going to move to NH. And when you hit 18, there's nothing your parents can legally do to stop you. But just turning 18 won't erase their concerns! If my [hypothetical] kid just disappeared, I'd be worried sick! If a rite of passage is really what you need, I'd propose something much more difficult than romping about the U.S.: secure the understanding and blessings of your family. You could go anywhere in the world, and they'd still be left wondering and worrying. So fix it while you can.

Well you don't have to make it out like an earth shattering event...
I'm actually a wonderful chap as long as you're not trying to do the looter/bureaucrat/jackboot/mercenary thing on me(or anyone else for that matter)...

Of course that leaves many people out as the majority have fallen in with that bunch...

This fight has been pretty much a daily one for me for over two decades, over 20 years, over seven thousand three hundred days, and I'll spare you the hours, minutes, and seconds...

I'd like to think that everyone knows where they stand with me...and others...and themselves...
I have no problem at all with advising others of my discretionary courses of action should they attempt aggression/force/fraud against me or anyone else...

This is discomforting to some, perhaps many...the sad part is that they don't understand their discomfort...
They don't see their discomfort as coming from their own knowledge of their own behavior in support of the looters, bureaucrats, jackboots, and mercenaries and the aggression/force/fraud that goes along with the looting, booty, and paychecks for all those looters and goons...

I'm pretty straightforward with all this...
However...
Those supporting and/or participating in the aggression/force/fraud should always wonder about those who keep these same feelings and mindsets to themselves...
Hopefully it will make them think twice and preferably quit their "jobs" and become students and advocates of the Non-Aggression Principle...

Those who don't will not only have to watch their front and sides...
But they will also have to watch their backs as they come to realize that sooner or later, they too will become expendable...collateral damage...

Go figure...


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