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Author Topic: A Conditional "Maybe"  (Read 12121 times)

John Edward Mercier

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Re: A Conditional "Maybe"
« Reply #30 on: November 01, 2007, 11:12:12 am »

Your mixing Natural Law, with God's Law, and giving no anthropological evidence of a society without government... never mind a peaceful and productive one.


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LibertyforLife

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Re: A Conditional "Maybe"
« Reply #31 on: November 02, 2007, 10:26:40 am »

Oh, you want an example of an area that survived without government? Okay, lets look back toward the late 1700's when the Colony of Massachettuses revoked its charter. For 12 whole months, it had no government, and things didn't go to hell in a hand bag. People weren't murdering or stealing from their neighbor, they weren't violating their rights and making people slaves.

Were it not for the incorporation of area into a State, it might have lived on quite nicely without government.

Most likely what happened was the same thing you currently believe, that without some form of 'government' people will turn and commit violence and use force against their neighbor, even though it goes against their very belief systems to do so. This is just not so, the evidence can be seen in the Amish, and other religious groups.

Force is not wrong in the basic sense, we all use force in some way or another on something or someone, only its form varies. To initiate force against another is wrong. To use defensive force is right, and almost rightous.

As for mixing Natural Law and, you say God, I say Creator's Law, if you understood the concepts, they are the same thing. There are no laws for beasts, beasts can not understand such things even if it were, perhaps the Creator would have given them the ability to understand the laws he gave, but I digress.

The Creator gave us reason and logic, and choice. Through reason and logic we developed, or rather discovered, the principles of liberty. That all of us have rights granted to us by Creator and that only he has the authority to remove those rights. We reason that it is wrong to take that which doesn't belong to us, because we ourselves would not want that which belongs to us taken. This is true of life, liberty, and of property. When people attempt to take that which is ours and not thier's we have the right to use defensive force to stop them from taking that which is not theirs.

You however want to grant authority of me over to someone else without my consent. So that my property isn't mine, it is the other's and I am religated to only be the steward of the property. Ownership of property, by its very definition means total and complete dominion over. If do not have complete and total dominion over my property, then it isn't my property at all.

This is the system as it exists today, the very same system you want to have and to hold till death do you part. You believe that rights are not rights, but privileges, to be granted and removed by the will of another. That to not follow the will of those so-called representitives is not slavery, but civilized.

You don't realize that government is just a symbolic construct, that its only purpose to exist is to control, again the very meaning of the word, govern. You believe that government can protect the people, when all evidence shows it can not do so, look to every crime, in the true sense of the word, and it even admits it has no obligation to do so. Ignore the fact that itself is the perptrator of more crime then any one under its so-called jurisdiction.

You don't care though, you want to live in this fanstasy called 'The United States of America' and you want to force me, to live in that cage with you. If you want that cage, please by all means stay in there, but don't be angry and don't force me to be in there with you because you can't free yourself from your concepts of 'governments', 'licenses', 'permits', 'applications', 'submissions', 'laws', 'registrations', 'judges', 'representitives', and other fantasy constructs.

'A government, for the people, of the people, and by the people' is propaganda, one only believed by those who don't want to, or can't think for themselves. For the people, you mean to control the people. Of the people, you mean of the slaves. By the people, you mean masters. If one is subjected to the will of another, that is slavery, even if you consent, it is still slavery.

I believed in the same garbage you believe in.  The only difference is that I've thought about it, and debated it, and found it to be garbage. I'm trying to help you understand the cage you live in, and help you to get out of it. Its hard, I know, I've been there. I was angry when I figured out that I've spent the last 27 years believing in something that didn't exist. I've talked to alot of people about it, and they are so scared of what would happen without government that they would rather live as a slave, under the control of the will of another, rather then accept the responsibility for themselves, without blaming anyone but themselves for their current state.
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John Edward Mercier

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Re: A Conditional "Maybe"
« Reply #32 on: November 02, 2007, 11:44:32 am »

I really don't care whether you live in the US or not. Some form of 'control' has existed throughout time, be it an Alpha, implied common law, or constitutional. The central question is what format it takes, and can it stand against outside forces?
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LibertyforLife

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Re: A Conditional "Maybe"
« Reply #33 on: November 02, 2007, 12:21:42 pm »

Okay, so just because a certain level of slavery has always existed, we should keep with the tradition?

I don't believe that we need any form of slavery to maintain order, justice, or any of the other things that 'civilized societies' need.

As for, can it stand against outside forces? Here is a thought, lost on others, does a country need a military force to survive? If you don't harm your neighbor, should you expect to have your neighbor harm you? If your neighbor does attempt to harm you, do you not think that your other neighbors will come in to protect you, if not because you ask or you pay them to, but because it is in their best interest to, for if you fall, then that is one less neighbor that they themselves have to protect them from your violent neighbor.

This logic is often lost on those who believe that 'government' is needed.

Take China for example, a country that has 1 billion plus people, ours only 300 million. Our military, some 1.5 million, their's in the hundreds of million. They most certainly could get their large military here, not unscathed of course, but get it here. Once here, then what? Our professional military versus theirs wouldn't last long against them. We may or may not have the technological advantage, but even that doesn't mean success, see the current conflict in Iraq, we have the techology and numbers, but they still are doing a good job killing us.

Even after our military, we have 1 gun per 10 people, some 30 million guns, and thats only registered firearms, the bigger and more "illegal" ones are out there. Do you think that they would be able to defeat the remaining people easily? Its those Survivalists you have to worry about, I'm sure they could take out a hundred or so each.

Didn't the Britons try this once too? Were they really effective?

Hypotheticals aside, China is our trading partner. It makes no sense to 'bite the hand that feeds you'. Were it not for the people here, they wouldn't be anywhere near the level they currently are. So it would be with any volentary society, killing your customer isn't a good business practice.

Of course if we are going to follow traditions, lets just all keep killig each other, Creator knows, we've been doing that for ages.
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RangerProbst

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Re: A Conditional "Maybe"
« Reply #34 on: November 04, 2007, 02:03:59 am »

Bravo, LFL! Bravo!
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"The end of democracy, and the defeat of the American Revolution will occur when government falls into the hands of lending institutions and moneyed incorporations." - Thomas Jefferson

John Edward Mercier

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Re: A Conditional "Maybe"
« Reply #35 on: November 04, 2007, 08:59:08 pm »

A tradition is something that spans one culture... not the entire species. At no time, no where on earth has a human civilization existed without some rules. The rules are made by someone and enforced by someone.
Human nature is not quite the same as lighting a christmas tree.
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buzzard

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Re: A Conditional "Maybe"
« Reply #36 on: November 22, 2007, 02:15:53 pm »

I personally, do not belong to the "state" or the "country" and considering that "government" isn't willing to follow its own "laws" I don't feel the need or want to follow them either. Perhaps this will lead me to "jail", but I honestly would rather be a just man in "jail" then an unjust man lying, stealing, and murdering to/from my neighbor.

The whole issue of the "constitution" in my mind is void of any meaning because itself violates its own provisions on which it was based. 'All men are created equal, and endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights, among these the rights to life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness'. If this is true, then the 4th violates the rights of life, liberty, and property, by allowing another so-called 'equal man' in taking of these rights by 'due process'. A process forced apon them under the threat of violence.

It violates logic to say that this 'government' is established 'in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity', when in order to fulfill these so called purposes it must take from the 'governed'. If something is supposed to protect your so-called rights, then it wouldn't be the first one to take them from you.

I think the purpose to which "government"s are established are not even relevant because the entire concept, "government", the root word meaning 'control', in and of itself is contradictory to the purposes to which they are established. That people are indoctrinated to believe that they live in a "country", that they live in a "state", that they are a "citizen", that should give their life for "their" "country", are all effectively against the concept of liberty and at the very least a threat apon liberty itself to continue to propagandize the idea of this "United States of America" concept is to me, absurd.

Of course, people will disagree with me emotionally, not logically, because their entire reality is built on the foundation that we are a "nation" created by the blood of "patriots" who valued "liberty" so highly that they would go to "war" against their brothers to separate themselves from those ties that bind, only to establish a no so different form of control, where by the illusion of freedom, justice, and liberty, must be maintained, for if the people ever found out the truth of the matter, they would revolt against the men and women who control their lives so fast that there would be no stopping them.

Instead, we instill in our children and ourselves, that we have to follow these "laws" made by men and women who are nothing more then kings and queens given the illusion of "fairness" because we get to "elect" our kings and queens, and is based on a system that is no different then that from wince this "nation" was birthed from.

I generally refrain from debating issues of the "constitution" because its just a piece of paper, it has no effect on anyone because it is not a contract, nor is it any more relevant then when it was written. You believe that the men and women D/B/A "government" are required to follow it, but you can not show any lawful or legal basis on why. None of these men or women have entered into a binding contract with anyone. They 'swear to uphold and defend the "constitutions"' but at the very most it is just a promise, with no lawful or legal binding. You continue to believe because that is all you've ever known or been taught.

You can not free your mind from the prison that is the "United States of America". You are willing to defend the idea, the concept of its existence, to the point as to ignore fact when it stares at you in the face, when the curtain is pulled and the man behind it says, 'ignore the man behind the curtain', and you do what you are told. I was indoctrinated in the same schools you were, I was taught the same things you were, I listen to those around me crying out loud that we are the best of the best because of where we live and the rights and freedoms we have.

Unlike you, however, I have taken the red pill and I see how far this rabbit hole goes, how far it continues to go, and I've learned that reality doesn't exist as we are taught it does. Something as simple as the principles of liberty if viewed from a logical basis, would alone shatter your reality, but you need your reality, you need to believe there is something more.

The principles of liberty, as I understand them, are that all men(I use the word in its general sense which includes the female gender), regardless of place of birth, are created equal, they remain equal until one grants them authority over them by their own consent without the use of force. That all men, regardless of place of birth, have the right to life, that from this right to life you have the right to liberty, and that when you combine your right to life and your right to liberty, a third right is created, and that is the right of property.

These are the basic rights that all men created have. That these rights are equal to ever other man's right, that no one may infringe on your right and you may not infringe on another's right. When the right of one infringes on another, they shall consensually resolve the infringement based on what is best for each of them in their own opinions. If they can not resolve them, then one may use force to protect their rights.

You have given your rights up, you have sold your rights in exchange for a bowl of soup, this is why your "government" treats you as property, because you are just that. You willingly send your own children into slavery because "that's what a good citizen does". Do you even know what a "citizen" is? One who owes a duty of allegiance(that is you are obligated to do that which you are told to do) to another in return for a duty of protection. The one you owe your allegiance to, has told you to your face it has no duty to protect you, yet you hold your duty of allegiance.

Liberty is freedom, freedom is a absence of restraint. You are told, you are free, you need only look to the dictionary to understand what words mean to find out, you have been lied to. You are no more free then the slaves were to their white masters. You have been propagandized, and you continue to spread the propaganda. Like all slaves who don't know any better, you continue to toil and mill about doing what your told to do, when your told to do it, without questioning why.

Some of us have escaped the plantation. We need you because our numbers are much smaller then our masters. We need to rise up and shout, we are free, free at last. Stop teaching the idea of "state", of "nation", of "country", stop enabling others in believing you are free, when you are most certainly not.

I apologize for the long post. Please forgive me, for I sinned, I have tried to open your eyes to reality.
Beautifully stated
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John Edward Mercier

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Re: A Conditional "Maybe"
« Reply #37 on: November 23, 2007, 10:17:23 am »

Karl Marx wrote something beautiful, and spent time in prison. But history has proven it to be a flawed concept also.
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Russell Kanning

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Re: A Conditional "Maybe"
« Reply #38 on: November 23, 2007, 10:30:11 am »

Karl Marx wrote something beautiful, and spent time in prison. But history has proven it to be a flawed concept also.
aren't you just a ray of sunshine on this forum
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