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Author Topic: Anarchists/Anarcho-capitalism  (Read 93019 times)

Power Penguin

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Re: Anarchists/Anarcho-capitalism
« Reply #15 on: April 17, 2006, 02:40:40 am »

I aggree, Steve. IMHO, I don't see how you could espouse anarchosocialism and have anything BUT the eventual reconstruction of what you're trying to eliminate, ie. the state and its ablity to amplify Murphy's Law exponentially 8-).

Personally, I'm whatever label makes you feel comfortable. I'm Libertarian (Yes, CAPITAL "L" OMG!) to ardent party members and/or "neolibertarians" who support borders and foreign military involvement. I'm Small 'l' to those who aren't, and to myself, I often feel like giving the politicians and police stringent swirlies in extra high-flush toilets. If you want it, I got it, as long as it's pro-liberty (R) :D
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RalphBorsodi

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Re: Anarchists/Anarcho-capitalism
« Reply #16 on: April 17, 2006, 05:46:20 am »

Nice thread. I'm an Anarchist, but...

Anarchy could mean a lot of things.  Let's say it means no government.  That equals lots of personal and economic freedom.  Economic freedom allows for big, large companies.

Economic freedom means a multiplicity of competition which undercuts big, large companies. The state cartelizes business at the behest of business interests.
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Denis Goddard

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Re: Anarchists/Anarcho-capitalism
« Reply #17 on: April 17, 2006, 06:02:10 am »

[Capitalism could mean a lot of things. Let's say it means respect for the human right to own and trade property and enter into contracts by mutual consent. Why is that incompatible with anarchy?

This "Steve" person is clearly a dangerous subversive! ;)

kid mongo

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Re: Anarchists/Anarcho-capitalism
« Reply #18 on: April 17, 2006, 08:55:43 am »

Capitalism could mean a lot of things. Let's say it means respect for the human right to own and trade property and enter into contracts by mutual consent. Why is that incompatible with anarchy?

Emma Goodman, whose views come very close to my own, famously said that, "Anarchism stands for liberation of the human mind from the dominion of religion, the liberation of the human body from the dominion of property, liberation from the shackles and restraint of government." This definition of anarchism repudiates these main control dynamics of religious, economic and authoritarian forces, which in no way I can think of, can be reconciled.

Property, in the Capitalist sense, creates inequality. Proudhon called it "theft," and Marx called it an exercise in "human self-estrangement." Property doesn't exist in an objective way. Proptery only exists because we say it has Value. An abstraction used to exploit and based on little more than desire.

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RalphBorsodi

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Re: Anarchists/Anarcho-capitalism
« Reply #19 on: April 17, 2006, 11:15:36 am »

Spot on Kid Mongo.

Property relationship are codified witin our supposedly "nuetral" legal framework but actually encourage rent-seeking behavior via government granted privileges which inevitably leads to the shifting of costs at the expense of labor-based property rights.
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citizen_142002

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Re: Anarchists/Anarcho-capitalism
« Reply #20 on: April 18, 2006, 04:23:11 pm »

I'm really a minarchist myself. I'm not convinced that the market will adequately replace the state in defending "Life, Liberty, and Property". But hey I don't think there is a great deal of value in arguing about no state vs. very limited state just yet. If we can make progress to the point where the programs that are left are those few that I support, well I'll be very happy to debate you then.
For that to happen we need to get more people to come to NH.
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JasonPSorens

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Re: Anarchists/Anarcho-capitalism
« Reply #21 on: April 18, 2006, 04:57:47 pm »

Property, in the Capitalist sense, creates inequality. Proudhon called it "theft," and Marx called it an exercise in "human self-estrangement." Property doesn't exist in an objective way. Proptery only exists because we say it has Value. An abstraction used to exploit and based on little more than desire.

If property is self-estranging, let me liberate you by snatching your toothbrush. Thanks. ;D
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"Educate your children, educate yourselves, in the love for the freedom of others, for only in this way will your own freedom not be a gratuitous gift from fate. You will be aware of its worth and will have the courage to defend it." --Joaquim Nabuco (1883), Abolitionism

RalphBorsodi

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Re: Anarchists/Anarcho-capitalism
« Reply #22 on: April 18, 2006, 05:33:07 pm »

Property, in the Capitalist sense, creates inequality. Proudhon called it "theft," and Marx called it an exercise in "human self-estrangement." Property doesn't exist in an objective way. Proptery only exists because we say it has Value. An abstraction used to exploit and based on little more than desire.

If property is self-estranging, let me liberate you by snatching your toothbrush. Thanks. ;D

Because a toothbrush is a personal possession and thus falls under the "property is liberty" statement from Proudhon and since mutualist (individual anarchists) believe only in occupancy and use as a condition of property ownership, you would actually have to snatch that toothbrush at night while he wasn't using it!

 ;D

Property is theft. -- P.J. Proudhon

Property is liberty. -- P.J. Proudhon

Property is impossible. -- P.J. Proudhon

Consistency is the hobgoblin of small minds. -- Ralph Waldo Emerson

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Roycerson

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Re: Anarchists/Anarcho-capitalism
« Reply #23 on: April 18, 2006, 06:27:42 pm »


Consistency is the hobgoblin of small minds. -- Ralph Waldo Emerson


That's the definition of taking a quote out of context. 

"Foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds."
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He who is slow to believe anything and everything is of great understanding, for belief in one false principle is the beginning of all unwisdom....Anton LaVey

kid mongo

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Re: Anarchists/Anarcho-capitalism
« Reply #24 on: April 18, 2006, 09:27:09 pm »

If property is self-estranging, let me liberate you by snatching your toothbrush. Thanks. ;D
Quote
I don't think you'd want my toothbrush!

Your point is well taken.  However, I ask you to consider my relationship with my toothbrush, signified by the possessive "my." I  could be viewed as employing "my" toothbrush as a tool, or as an extension of my self. Its function to clean my teeth, and my desire to keep my teeth clean ;D in no way harms or produces inequality, poverty, scarcity, or debt among my fellows. Unlike Capital and Property. I'm sure one can derive immense pleasure of owning a pair of Nike's, or a nice leather jacket from Wal-Mart made by prison labor in China.http://commdocs.house.gov/committees/intlrel/hfa45502.000/hfa45502_0.HTM And I wouldn't take them from you. That would be coercive. But I would ask you to think about what went into those pair of socks that came from China. A fellow freedom- fighter might have had a hand in making it for you to "possess."

Quote
Property is theft. -- P.J. Proudhon

Property is liberty. -- P.J. Proudhon

Property is impossible. -- P.J. Proudhon

Consistency is the hobgoblin of small minds. -- Ralph Waldo Emerson


Quoting Proudhon and Emerson, two of my heroes, gets you mad respect points, buckaroo. Actually, Proudhon is correct on all these points. #2 makes sense once you realize Property is an illusion. You know, like paper money.

-EDIT-

My favorite Emerson quote: "I hate quotations. Tell me what you know."

« Last Edit: April 18, 2006, 09:43:18 pm by kid mongo »
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JasonPSorens

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Re: Anarchists/Anarcho-capitalism
« Reply #25 on: April 18, 2006, 10:11:31 pm »

Quote
If property is self-estranging, let me liberate you by snatching your toothbrush. Thanks. ;D
I don't think you'd want my toothbrush!

Your point is well taken.  However, I ask you to consider my relationship with my toothbrush, signified by the possessive "my." I  could be viewed as employing "my" toothbrush as a tool, or as an extension of my self.

I think you're right. In fact, I think you've just made a very powerful statement in favor of the idea that property is essential to liberty. I think if this principle applies to toothbrushes, screwdrivers, microwaves, and bicycles, it also applies to, say, factories and office buildings, which like toothbrushes are tools (capital), just larger-sized.

Quote
Its function to clean my teeth, and my desire to keep my teeth clean ;D in no way harms or produces inequality, poverty, scarcity, or debt among my fellows.

Poverty is undoubtedly a great evil we should strive to abolish, but I don't think the others are necessarily evils. Inequality of condition is an inevitable result of human free choice and is not an evil in the absence of poverty. Scarcity is an inevitable result of the finite resources of planet earth; the real problem is how to deal with scarcity so that people can still improve their condition. Debt isn't necessarily an evil either; it can be a convenience for people who expect to be more productive with that debt than without it - think of the specialty weaver in India who with access to microcredit is able to run a successful business.

Quote
Unlike Capital and Property. I'm sure one can derive immense pleasure of owning a pair of Nike's, or a nice leather jacket from Wal-Mart made by prison labor in China.http://commdocs.house.gov/committees/intlrel/hfa45502.000/hfa45502_0.HTM And I wouldn't take them from you. That would be coercive. But I would ask you to think about what went into those pair of socks that came from China. A fellow freedom- fighter might have had a hand in making it for you to "possess."

I think we agree on a lot here. The fact that you wouldn't take those things forcibly implies that you believe the person has a "right" to those things. It wouldn't be theft if the person had no right to those things (for example, if you took back something someone had stolen from you, that wouldn't violate anyone's rights and would perfectly permissible). But you're saying that just because someone has a right to do something, that doesn't mean it is right to do it.

That's a good distinction to make, and one I agree with. Conservatives who don't realize this distinction often say that libertarianism is libertinism, because we say that consenting adults have a right to, say, use drugs. But just because there is a right to use drugs (that belong to you!) doesn't mean it is right to use drugs. Socialists make the same mistake when they claim libertarians don't think there's ever anything wrong with capitalism. We can admit that capitalism sometimes has negative consequences, even when it's completely voluntary.

So I think you and I are in 100% agreement politically, and you certainly qualify for the Free State Project.  ;D However, we might disagree as a matter of fact & evidence about whether the competitive, for-profit market economy causes certain social ills. But since we agree that the solution to any social ills is not to use force or government to prevent "capitalist acts among consenting adults," we have nothing to fear from each other. I have no problem with people attempting to set up voluntary socialist societies. I just don't think they will usually work very well, in the sense of producing wealth and a high standard of living.
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"Educate your children, educate yourselves, in the love for the freedom of others, for only in this way will your own freedom not be a gratuitous gift from fate. You will be aware of its worth and will have the courage to defend it." --Joaquim Nabuco (1883), Abolitionism

RalphBorsodi

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Re: Anarchists/Anarcho-capitalism
« Reply #26 on: April 18, 2006, 10:27:24 pm »

Quote
since we agree that the solution to any social ills is not to use force or government to prevent "capitalist acts among consenting adults

I think the point of left libertarianism/individualist anarchism/mutualism is that the state has already acted with force via the granting of certain privileges to capital, codifying property relations within our supposedly "nuetral" legal framework.

It isn't nuetral and it is infact the root cause of our "social ills" - so rather than using force to address issues after the fact it is necessary and just to remove the privileges prior to any capitalist free market "acts among consenting adults" to achieve equal liberty.
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citizen_142002

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Re: Anarchists/Anarcho-capitalism
« Reply #27 on: April 18, 2006, 11:46:57 pm »

I'm not the kind of person to be hostile when debating philosophy, but let me just put the following out there. I don't believe that property is theft, and that those of you who make such claims are advocating an abridgement of a fundemental human right. If you try to impose this philosophy in regards to my own property just be aware that some of my "personal possesions" are capable of throwing bullets at you very hard   :-* Oh and my right to do so is thankfully enumerated in the New Hampshire constitution.
For all you Anarcho-capitalists out there please don't take offense that comment isn't meant for you.

Life, Liberty, and PROPERTY
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David Wolfe

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Re: Anarchists/Anarcho-capitalism
« Reply #28 on: April 19, 2006, 12:24:33 am »

I'm not the kind of person to be hostile when debating philosophy, but let me just put the following out there. I don't believe that property is theft, and that those of you who make such claims are advocating an abridgement of a fundemental human right. If you try to impose this philosophy in regards to my own property just be aware that some of my "personal possesions" are capable of throwing bullets at you very hard   :-* Oh and my right to do so is thankfully enumerated in the New Hampshire constitution.
For all you Anarcho-capitalists out there please don't take offense that comment isn't meant for you.

Life, Liberty, and PROPERTY

That post is so good that I just wanted to give everyone a second chance to read it.
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kid mongo

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Re: Anarchists/Anarcho-capitalism
« Reply #29 on: April 19, 2006, 01:49:52 am »

Owning slaves was once considered a "fundemental " human right, and sanctioned by the Church and State! The failings of Human Reason, Exhibit 184754644586575....

I would like to consider the Israeli experiment of the kibbutzim as a success in socialist society, but they are now being privatizied and transformed into shopping malls. Which is perfect if you want to buy a bunch of crap. So I submit that it is capitalism and consumerism that destroys these socialist enclaves. Many kibbutzim had taken bank loans, and when, predictably, the rates went up, the kibbutzim found themselves in serious trouble. However, some of the kibbutzim made out like bandits. Catering to the elite with niche services never hurts. So you have some kibbutzim flourishing while others die out. But isn't that the way with Capitalism?

It is this dirty little lie called "Money" that's the problem. It is far from a "voluntary" system that I exist in, since my only alternative is to withdraw from this space-age consumer society and live as a wanderer, "free" as long as the cops don't kick my sleeping black ass out of the public park, since in many towns across America, that would be a crime. Yeah, what "human rights" would I have if it is a crime to sleep in a public park? If you'd like to use "logic" in this case, go ahead. All I get is "public = private, so keep moving!") Corporations have more rights than a homeless man. Hell, they've got as much rights as "money" can "buy." But surely I can find a cozy bench in NH! ;D

Another  problem is that no one can think of existing in this country without money. Go on, try. I'll wait a few moments...

Oh my, brains expoding onto computers screens everywhere. Pity.

Capitalism seems to thrive in pluocracies like the USA, and authoritarian societies like China. Should that tell you anythig? It tells me that China is becoming the envied economic model in the world, and is the future of Capitalism. Hell, they should be running the world in about twenty years. Or sooner if they call in those BONDS. For my taste, Socialism and Libertarianism doesn't go far enough, however these tendacies, as long as they can resist the sultry, intoxicating allure of Babylon, are where we have the best chance of saving our planet and each other. And my toothbrush, if I may digress.

Listen:
When I "bought" my tootbrush with the fiat paper money that the Government says I have to use, I participated in a ritual where I exchanged these sheets of green paper for a toothbrush, among other things. The "price" was $"1.99." I like to "buy" "things" on "sale." I have no idea if this is an "equitable exchange."  I was even  handed  a "receipt" which verified the "transaction."

I exchanged "ownership" of my "green sheets of paper" for "ownership" of the toothbrush. When I say "ownership,"
of course I don't "own" the paper. The Central Bank who printed it does. And they can print as much as they like, this paper is merely in my "possession."  As is the newly "purchased" toothbrush who by now feels rather tall with all the attention she's getting. (I like to "anthropomorphize  items in my "possession."). I retire to my hovel, which I "rent" and place the toothbrush  in the bathrom, ready for use.

I say to the toothbrush, " I have purchased you and I am your master. Within the relationship between us there exists an aspect of my personal liberty. This Liberty is my Right, and owning a Toothbrush proves this is so!"

Of course the toothbrush can't respond, silly. If it could, it might say something like this: "I only exist in your subjective reality and personal liberty is only a manmade concept. Ownership and Property are also just empty  illusions."

"How?" I demand. "There is no freedom if private property is an illusion." This toothbrush is pretty lippy.

"Well, in this country, if you buy a house and/or purchase the land, to you "own" it?"

"That's True!"

"ERRRRRRRRRR! Wrong. The Supreme Court says your "property" is ultimately subjugated to the State and the Corporation. Therefore your "ownership" of your "property" is rendered "meaningless." And even after you "pay off" your house, you still have to pay "Property Taxes" and if you don't, the State will take the house that you "own." Sucker."

I feel my heart sink. Property Taxes are good, aren't they? Without Property Taxes we have no Freedom! Or is it Liberty? Probably both.

The toothbrush continues, "These ideas are meant to bring about order and stability into a chaotic world, and to force you to operate within a limited range of possibilities so that NEW IDEAS never appear. To be controlled and explioted by the Mysterious Brains that remain hidden behind the scenes. Meanwhile they throw out wonderful sounding items like Profit and Consumerism, and they get you to willingly climb inside the hamster wheel, and idiots like you go round and round, day after day, year after year, and they get you to BELIEVE YOU CAN"T LIVE WITHOUT THEM and their GADGETS and their SONY PLAYSTATIONS and DISH TV and  AMERICAN IDOL, and all the other CRAP they make you WANT to CONSUME. And then after you DIE, everything you "owned" gets divvyed up, hopefully, by your survivors, only they wont "own" your things, it'll just be in their possession. These ideas are most useful to them, but they are a poor substitute for subjective reality. Or else, there is little difference vis a vis  the relationship between Man and Toothbrush, and the relationship  between the Man and State."

I consider what I have just heard, letting the annoyance of being called an "idiot" by the toothbrush in my possession pass. Hm. A Human is like a  toothbrush, which the State uses to clean its teeth of food particles? NAAAHHHH...
=EDIT=
But seriously, I am truly considering wrangling my way to Porc-Fest this summer, because I want a chance to meet other like-minded creatures who are getting off their butts and are serious in making a community that's different from the crap that passes as "civilization."  I am however, a committed anarchist who sees no "profit" in dealing with the Plutocracy. I don't think anybody here will be able to sway me otherwise, but you're welcome to try. Seems like some of you guys are really into this Property thing, so have at it. We will agree to disagree, and that's all right.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2006, 02:21:19 am by kid mongo »
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