Free State Project Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Pages: [1] 2 3 4 5   Go Down

Author Topic: Indicator tests for Liberty - state rankings, fireworks, guns, etc.  (Read 28732 times)

Solitar

  • Guest

State prohibitions of fireworks is an indicator of how much the state legislators and voters trust the average person with being responsible for handling of fireworks. Restrictive fireworks laws or outright prohibitions implies a severe level of state nannyism.

We libertarians on this council and especially I (even before the reinforcements arrived), fought very hard for repealing the local prohibition against sparklers, fountains, ground spinners, and novelties. We did win but may see Colorado prohibit everything like Delaware and Vermont have done. We can not be less restrictive than the state statute.

Most Free...(Alaska, North Dakota, South Dakota, Wyoming, Montana)... Most Class C fireworks permitted (firecrackers, aerials, roman candles, sky rockets,etc.).  Fireworks sold primarily by licensed fireworks stores and temporary roadside stands.

Next Most Free...(Idaho, New Hampshire)
Family safe and sane fireworks. Sparklers, fountains, trick noisemakers, toy smoke devices and snakes. Fireworks sold by retailers - supermarkets, discount stores, drug stores, convenience stores and temporary roadside stands.

Next Least Free...(Maine)
Sparklers and/or trick noisemakers, toy smoke devices and snakes. Fireworks sold by retailers - supermarkets, discount stores, drug stores and convenience stores.

Total Prohibition (Delaware, Vermont)
Fireworks not permitted for sale to/or use by consumer.
Why does Vermont require no permit for carrying a gun concealed yet prohibit fireworks?

http://www.fireworks-safety.com/plate.main/newsroom/usfireworklaws.html

If they don't trust us with fireworks, they won't trust us with guns, knives, rat poison, ground-mole-bombs, road flares, etc.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2003, 10:15:30 am by Joe, aka, Solitar »
Logged

Zxcv

  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1229
Re:Litmus tests for Liberty - state rankings, fireworks, guns, etc.
« Reply #1 on: January 15, 2003, 03:44:36 pm »

Quote
State prohibitions of fireworks is an indicator of how much the state legislators and voters trust the average person with being responsible for handling of fireworks. Restrictive fireworks laws or outright prohibitions implies a severe level of state nannyism.

I have to question this statement, Joe.

I imagine all it would take to pass restrictive laws on fireworks, is a couple of legislators with a bug up their a$$. A little lobbying and logrolling, a couple of hurt kids, a few alarmist letters from "soccer moms", and you are done. Other legislators who don't care much one way or another may vote for this because there's just not going to be a lot of opposition to it. Who is going to spend time going down and lobbying against fireworks restrictions?

So I wouldn't hang my hat on fireworks restrictions, as a very strong indicator of rampant nannyism.

On the other hand, firearms restrictions surely qualifies. If a state sees fit to "protect" us from ourselves this way, despite significant opposition from large segments of society, despite strong arguments against it for anyone who bothers to spend a few minutes looking, then that is a reliable indicator of rampant nannyism.
Logged

George Reich

  • FSP Participant
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 546
  • I just *love* it when Hank and Dagny brainstorm!
Re:Litmus tests for Liberty - state rankings, fireworks, guns, etc.
« Reply #2 on: January 17, 2003, 11:16:30 am »

How about looking at things like mandatory seat belt laws, motorcycle helmet laws, mandatory auto insurance laws, etc?
Logged
If everyone were rich there would be no need for government assistance. If everyone were rich all children could attend private schools. If everyone were rich, government would become superfluous. Read the free e-book at this site:

http://www.scienceofgettingrich.net

Kelton

  • FSP Participant
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 604
  • el resplandor de las llamas de la libertad
Re:Litmus tests for Liberty - state rankings, fireworks, guns, etc.
« Reply #3 on: January 17, 2003, 11:44:18 am »

New Hampshire has no helmet or seat belt laws.

All of our candidate states exempt adults from helmet laws except Vermont.

source:
http://usff.com/hldl/frames/50state.html
___
All other states have some form of seat belt law.
Here is a ranking of the Maximum 1st fine offense if caught without a belt:
Idaho =  $5
Vermont = $10
Alaska = $15
Delaware, Montana, North Dakota, South Dakota = $20
Wyoming $25 (driver)/ $10 passenger -- is reduced by $10 for good behavior.  ;)
Maine $50

None of our states require standard enforcement on the road for non- use.

Source:
http://www.iihs.org/safety_facts/state_laws/restrain3.htm
« Last Edit: January 26, 2003, 11:20:51 pm by exitus »
Logged
. . .the foundations of our national policy should be laid in private morality. If individuals be not influenced by moral principles, it is in vain to look for public virtue --The U.S. Senate's reply to George Washington's first inaugural address

Zxcv

  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1229
Re:Litmus tests for Liberty - state rankings, fireworks, guns, etc.
« Reply #4 on: January 17, 2003, 12:59:18 pm »

Another possibility would be hunter orange requirements, and requirements for hunter training, and helmets for kids on bikes.

Hunter orange: only Alaska, Idaho, Vermont and New Hampshire do not require the use of hunter orange garments.
Hunter training: Montana is apparently the only state that does not require hunter training.
Source: http://www.ihea.com/infodb/

Bicycle Helmet Laws: I was very surprised to see that only Delaware and Maine have state laws, given the reduction in injuries from using helmets. Where's all that "for the children" sentiment?  ::)  BTW Billings, Montana has a city law.
Source: http://www.bhsi.org/mandator.htm

I think the motorcycle helmet issue is a good indicator because there is likely to be strenuous opposition to it. If it passes nonetheless, that's saying something. However there is probably not much motorcycle riding in these northern states!  :P

exitus, you make an excellent point about considering the fines for these "violations". A fine of $5 obviously is making a statement that "we'd rather you use seatbelts" more than "you'd better use seatbelts, or else". Certainly, having any fines at all is going over a qualitative threshold, though.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2003, 01:21:57 pm by Zxcv »
Logged

Kelton

  • FSP Participant
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 604
  • el resplandor de las llamas de la libertad
Re:Litmus tests for Liberty - state rankings, fireworks, guns, etc.
« Reply #5 on: January 17, 2003, 02:11:02 pm »

I realize that this could say many subjective things, but interesting for this thread anyways--

Only three state legislatures took up the call by the conservative group, Americans for Tax Reform http://www.atr.org/maps/10.html
and passed legislation "calling on their US congressmen and senators to pass the Bush tax relief package"

That was  Idaho, Montana and North Dakota
Logged
. . .the foundations of our national policy should be laid in private morality. If individuals be not influenced by moral principles, it is in vain to look for public virtue --The U.S. Senate's reply to George Washington's first inaugural address

Kelton

  • FSP Participant
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 604
  • el resplandor de las llamas de la libertad
Re:Litmus tests for Liberty - state rankings, fireworks, guns, etc.
« Reply #6 on: January 21, 2003, 01:20:10 pm »

In the book, You May Not Tie an Alligator to a Fire Hydrant: 101 Real Dumb Laws by Jeff Koon, Andy Powell, Ward Schumaker, take a light-hearted look at "dumb laws" in the 50 states.  They have a sampling of the book on their website, here are links to our candidate state dumb-law pages:
Alaska   Delaware   Idaho   Maine   Montana   New Hampshire    North Dakota   South Dakota   Vermont   Wyoming
Logged
. . .the foundations of our national policy should be laid in private morality. If individuals be not influenced by moral principles, it is in vain to look for public virtue --The U.S. Senate's reply to George Washington's first inaugural address

Robert H.

  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1361
  • Jeffersonian
    • Devolution USA
Re:Litmus tests for Liberty - state rankings, fireworks, guns, etc.
« Reply #7 on: January 22, 2003, 10:42:58 am »

Another criteria I would add to a "litmus test" for a liberty-minded state would be the homeschooling issue.  Homeschooling is a such a personal, anti-conformity related issue that I would say a population's attitude toward it would be a supreme indicator of their general attitude toward personal liberty and individualism.

A state with more stringent homeschooling laws would seem to be indicative of a more conformist-dominated population.

freedomroad

  • Guest
Re:Litmus tests for Liberty - No Hunting on Sunday
« Reply #8 on: January 22, 2003, 02:05:44 pm »


Hunter orange: only Alaska, Idaho, Vermont and New Hampshire do not require the use of hunter orange garments.
Hunter training: Montana is apparently the only state that does not require hunter training.
Source: http://www.ihea.com/infodb/


Talking about hunting...  There is something even more important than orange laws.  Some states have actually outlawed hunting.  They only outlaw hunting on one day but if they will outlaw hunting on one day what is to stop them from outlawing hunting on other days.  Two of the state, ME and DE, do not allow hunting on Sunday.  These laws do not allow you to use a gun for a whole 1/7th of the week.  I thought ME had a pro-gun culture but this law is very anti-gun.  DE does not have much hunting land, anyway.  However, all of the states near DE, such as, PA, NJ, and MD do not allow Sunday hunting.  So, if you are like most people and your days off are Saturday and Sunday....
« Last Edit: January 23, 2003, 03:26:19 pm by FreedomRoad »
Logged

Zxcv

  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1229
Re:Litmus tests for Liberty - state rankings, fireworks, guns, etc.
« Reply #9 on: January 22, 2003, 03:04:29 pm »

That is really weird. It never would have occurred to me that "communing with God" was illegal on Sundays!  ::)

This might be a hang-over from the old days, what did they call them, blue laws, or something like that? Lots of things used to be illegal on Sunday. I wouldn't necessarily throw it into the "anti-gun" category.

Really strange not to have hunting on one of your days off, though. In a lot of states, deer hunting season is a religious holiday!  ;)
Logged

Kelton

  • FSP Participant
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 604
  • el resplandor de las llamas de la libertad
Re:Litmus tests for Liberty - No Hunting on Sunday
« Reply #10 on: January 24, 2003, 09:18:17 am »


 These laws do not allow you to use a gun for a whole 1/7th of the week.  I thought ME had a pro-gun culture but this law is very anti-gun.
I would not call this kind of law anti-gun.  You are talking about hunting, not necessarily gun rights. Nowadays hunting is largely a state- sponsored activity.  State agents help with the management of wild herds, the cost of a license goes towards this and to help pay for anti-poaching measures, enforcement, feeding stranded herds, hunter training.  
To stop hunting on Sunday is equivalent to closing a state- maintained roadway on Sunday, which might restrict your travel but certainly isn't like getting your car towed, both measures are far less eggregious than actually saying, "on Sundays you may not even handle a gun".
« Last Edit: January 24, 2003, 09:19:38 am by exitus »
Logged
. . .the foundations of our national policy should be laid in private morality. If individuals be not influenced by moral principles, it is in vain to look for public virtue --The U.S. Senate's reply to George Washington's first inaugural address

Kelton

  • FSP Participant
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 604
  • el resplandor de las llamas de la libertad
Re:Litmus tests for Liberty - state rankings, fireworks, guns, etc.
« Reply #11 on: January 24, 2003, 10:05:30 am »

The following is some of my notes and summaries of relevant smoking laws that I created while researching laws on smoking,  edited so that most of the following information is that which is not covered on the American Lung Association web-page.
Quote
Alaska- prohibited workplace smoking by law and penalty by fine, penalty or civil tort action. Smoking in any form is a nuisance and a public health hazard and is prohibited in the following vehicles and indoor places, except as allowed under AS 18.35.310 :
 Delaware= effective November 27, 2002, " Violators will be subject to a fine of $100 for the first violation and a minimum of $250 for each additional infraction.
--Idaho- Indoor clean air act. Smoking prohibited on elevators, unchartered buses and other forms of  conveyance open to the public,entry areas, exit areas, ticket and registration areas (where a line may form), grocery stores,and within areas as applicable to food safety and sanitation hazards for food establishment, places where smoking could cause explosion hazard, and designated smoking area decided by proprietor with restrictions on area and amount of seclusion for non-smoking patrons and must provide non-smoking area except by application for smoking waiver costing $10. Proper sized signs to designate non-smoking areas.  Signs must be posted in non-smoking areas. Fine=yes penalty provided in Section 39-5507 (for proprietor violations), Any violation may be reported to a law enforcement officer. 18-5906. PENALTY FOR VIOLATION. A violation of section 18-5904 Idaho Code, is punishable by a fine of not less than five dollars ($5) nor more than ten dollars ($10), apparently, this is penalty to the smoker.

Maine- provision of smoke-free work spaces for employees who request them mechanisms by which employees may complain about violations of smoking rules assurances that employees will not be retaliated against for enforcing workplace smoking policy. and punishable by penalty or fine or civil tort action.  
Campaign for Tobacco-Free Kids says Maine improved its rating from No. 3 a year ago to No. 1. in smoking prevention spending.
--
Montana- prohibited workplace smoking by law and penalty by fine, penalty or civil tort action.  Employers are free, by statute to charge smokers higher health insurance premiums.
--
New Hampshire- provision of smoke-free work spaces for employees who request them mechanisms by which employees may complain about violations of smoking rules. assurances that employees will not be retaliated against for enforcing workplace smoking policy. prohibited workplace smoking by law and punishable by penalty or fine or civil tort action.126-K:7 Use of Tobacco Products on Public Educational Facility Grounds Prohibited. – I. No person shall use any tobacco product in any public educational facility or on the grounds of any public educational facility. II. Any person who violates this section shall be guilty of a violation and, notwithstanding RSA 651:2, shall be punished by a fine not to exceed $100 for each offense. Source. 1997, 338:8, eff. Jan. 1, 1998.
--
South Dakota S.D. (2002) Employers are, by statue, free to charge smokers higher health insurance premiums.
---
Vermont- provision of smoke-free work spaces for employees who request them,mechanisms by which employees may complain about violations of smoking rules assurances that employees will not be retaliated against for enforcing workplace smoking policy. Punishable by penalty or fine or civil tort action. Vt. Stat. Ann. tit. 18, § 1742 restricts smoking in public places, including restaurants. Vt. Stat. Ann. tit. 18, § 1744 only allows restaurants issued a "cabaret" license to permit smoking.
Vt. Stat. Ann. tit. 16, § 140 prohibits any person from using tobacco products on public school grounds and prohibits students from using tobacco at public school sponsored functions.
--Wyoming- 1999 Employers are free, by statute to charge smokers higher health insurance premiums.
--
Lawful product laws (pro-smoker, not free-market):
The state mandates that employers are not able to make employment decisions based on whether someone uses tobacco or not (some exceptions such as for religious organizations apply):  Maine, Montana, New Hampshire, Wyoming, North Dakota, South Dakota.

Of the above states, WY,MT,SD have lenient provisions that allow employers to require a non-smoking employee if hiring a smoker would be contrary to the mission of the business, such as employees working in an anti-smoking taskforce.

States that participated among 29 states that participated in tabacco lawsuit were:
(All)

Existence of "nicotine dependence treatment programs" contingent upon accepting money are in place in all of the candidate states.
What follows is perhaps more useful in analyzing the states . . .
« Last Edit: January 24, 2003, 11:54:06 am by exitus »
Logged
. . .the foundations of our national policy should be laid in private morality. If individuals be not influenced by moral principles, it is in vain to look for public virtue --The U.S. Senate's reply to George Washington's first inaugural address

Kelton

  • FSP Participant
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 604
  • el resplandor de las llamas de la libertad
Re:Litmus tests for Liberty - state rankings, fireworks, guns, etc.
« Reply #12 on: January 24, 2003, 10:30:18 am »

From the American Lung Association:
State Legislated Actions on Tobacco Issues
(There is not enough room to copy all of those laws onto this page)

For a reasoned perspective on organizations such as American Lung Association, please visit Stephen Milloy's web-page, Junkscience From a libertarian perspective, one should rate whatever the precautionary-principled junk-scientists rate high as low.

Some more info on How Prohibition Increases the Harm It Tries to Reduce


American Lung Association Report card:
 Worse grade = more freedom. . .ranking based on "an analysis of state laws" based on efforts to control public smoking.  The assignment of grades is somewhat independant of the state ranking.

From most free to least free:

   WY(Ranks #50 in nation)
Smokefree Air  F  
Youth Access  F  
Tobacco Prevention and Control Spending  D  
Cigarette Taxes  F
   ID (Ranks #28 in nation)
Smokefree Air  F  
Youth Access  B  
Tobacco Prevention and Control Spending  F  
Cigarette Taxes  F
   ND (Ranks #27 in nation)
Smokefree Air  F  
Youth Access  F  
Tobacco Prevention and Control Spending  F  
Cigarette Taxes  D
   MT (Ranks #25 in nation)
Smokefree Air  F  
Youth Access  F  
Tobacco Prevention and Control Spending  F  
Cigarette Taxes  F
   SD (Ranks #17 in nation)
Smokefree Air  F  
Youth Access  F  
Tobacco Prevention and Control Spending  F  
Cigarette Taxes  D
   NH (Ranks #13 in nation)
Smokefree Air  F  
Youth Access  C    
Tobacco Prevention and Control Spending  F  
Cigarette Taxes  D
   AK (Ranks #8 in nation)
Smokefree Air  F  
Youth Access  B  
Tobacco Prevention and Control Spending  C  
Cigarette Taxes  B  
   VT (Ranks #4 in nation)
Smokefree Air  B  
Youth Access  A  
Tobacco Prevention and Control Spending  B  
Cigarette Taxes  B
   DE (Ranks #2 in nation) --based on
Smokefree Air  A  
Youth Access  F  
Tobacco Prevention and Control Spending  D  
Cigarette Taxes  F
« Last Edit: January 24, 2003, 10:48:16 am by exitus »
Logged
. . .the foundations of our national policy should be laid in private morality. If individuals be not influenced by moral principles, it is in vain to look for public virtue --The U.S. Senate's reply to George Washington's first inaugural address

Zxcv

  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1229
Re:Litmus tests for Liberty - state rankings, fireworks, guns, etc.
« Reply #13 on: January 24, 2003, 12:53:16 pm »

exitus, that's an excellent find. There is hardly a better measure of rampant nanny-statism than anti-smoking laws. I just spent some (losing) effort trying to head off "no smoking in public places and work places" laws in my town. It is irritating how this junk science gets such strong play.

About my only concern would be the part about youth access. I might have to agree with the American Lung Association on that one, even though that shows I don't follow the libertarian dogma!

I think I will add this row to my big spreadsheet. Especially since Wyoming does so well on it.  ;)  In fact, I probably ought to add some of these other items as well.
Logged

JasonPSorens

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5716
  • Neohantonum liberissimum erit.
    • My Homepage
Re:Litmus tests for Liberty - state rankings, fireworks, guns, etc.
« Reply #14 on: January 24, 2003, 01:00:48 pm »

Actually, I agree with you, Zxcv: the government does have a role to play in preventing minors from having access to tobacco, alcohol, drugs, pornography, etc.  I wonder what goes into their grades on that dimension, though.  Could involve a bunch of feel-good, do-nothing advertising paid for by public dollars.  Also, I'm still scratching my head over the rankings, which don't seem to match the grades well at all.
Logged
"Educate your children, educate yourselves, in the love for the freedom of others, for only in this way will your own freedom not be a gratuitous gift from fate. You will be aware of its worth and will have the courage to defend it." --Joaquim Nabuco (1883), Abolitionism
Pages: [1] 2 3 4 5   Go Up