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FSP -- General Discussion => Prospective Participants => Topic started by: kevinak on April 14, 2007, 12:43:31 am

Title: "paying own way"?
Post by: kevinak on April 14, 2007, 12:43:31 am
I've seen views from a member of the Freestate Project that everyone has to pay their own way. I was wondering if everyone feels this same way? To elaborate, let's say I join the Freestate Project, and through no fault of my  own, I lose my job. Maybe, cut backs by my employer through layoffs, or my employer goes out of business, or my employer ups and moves its business else where. All of which have happened to me at one time or another. :'(

My question is, what is the Project's stance on unemployment insurance payments, foodstamps, medicaide, things like that? Things the Government has set up to assist people in those kinds of situations. :)

I won't say where I read the "views" >:D, but I will say the iindividualmade it sound like the Project is completely against these services.  >:(

If these "views" are held across the Project, what does the Project do to assist these individuals and their families during these times? Or are they "removed" or "forced" from the Project. ???
Title: Re: "paying own way"?
Post by: Ward Griffiths on April 14, 2007, 02:15:20 am
The "Project" is neither for nor against any of these things.  The FSP has as its only goal to get freedom-minded individuals move to New Hampshire.

Members of the FSP hold opinions all over the board, but most are (at best) lukewarm on government aid.

New Hampshire was the last state where food assistance was "in kind" rather than food stamps.  My mother collected, I ate a good bit of government cheese (yes, the real thing) and potted meat that was nowhere near the quality of Spam.  I have in the past (at spousal insistence) taken unemployment checks.  And once when I was really hungry, I leased my body to the Federal government for four years.  (The USAF fed me, stuff a lot better than USDA surplus, the rest of their promises were too vague to prosecute for breach of contract).

All of the assistance programs that governments set up are paid with funds robbed at gunpoint (not always literally -- I'm a wimp so I send my check to the IRS before they send the goons).  All the same with federal, state and municipal programs.  I will voluntarily starve before I eat government cheese again.
Title: Re: "paying own way"?
Post by: kevinak on April 14, 2007, 03:10:42 am
 I will voluntarily starve before I eat government cheese again.

Yuck. Been there to. Just asking, because I have four daughters to think of. Actually, while posting this I'm holding my youngest, seven and a half months old, who is eating a bottle, the formula paid for by WIC.

But, you must know that the Government doesn't hand out food like that anymore. You have a card issued to you that you use to buy food, almost like an ATM card issued by your bank. They set the amount by your income, number of indiviuals in the family, so forth. Nobody even knows that your are using foodstamps at the grociery store anymore.
Title: Re: "paying own way"?
Post by: greap on April 14, 2007, 03:58:57 am
unemployment insurance payments

I don't think anyone would have a problem with that one. That is just smart if you don't have large sums kicking about a bank account.

As for the rest while we are working to eliminate them the real challenge is the people on welfare for life. I am sure you will run in to a number of members who do claim some form of government assistance already, either on the basis that they have to or that they are applying the "I pay for it so might as well use it" idea. A liberty minded individual who claims to stop his family starving while he continues to look for a new job is a great deal better then someone on welfare for life or someone who actively seeks out entitlement programs of any kind, I really don't think you will run in to many people at all who will consider you the fetid juices of Satan for that.
Title: Re: "paying own way"?
Post by: lloydbob1 on April 14, 2007, 06:44:17 am
I don't know understand what is being said here.  We are certainly not interested in attracting 'anyone' to New Hampshire that is considering accepting/demanding government programs such as WIC.
Title: Re: "paying own way"?
Post by: kevinak on April 14, 2007, 08:01:17 am
I don't know understand what is being said here.  We are certainly not interested in attracting 'anyone' to New Hampshire that is considering accepting/demanding government programs such as WIC.

So you admit that if someone falls on hard times as I stated in my original post, the Project has a problem with someone trying to support their family for a short while with Govt aide? ???
Title: Re: "paying own way"?
Post by: RichW on April 14, 2007, 09:01:23 am
Once again, kevinak, "the project" takes no political stances whatsoever.  Its sole purpose is to attract 20,000+ freedom activists to New Hampshire.  Each FSP member has their own individual views on government welfare programs because each is, well, an individual.  Most freedom advocates, however, are against government welfare because of the force required to fund such programs.  Charitable solutions are preferable.  In my town, for example, the local rescue mission provides a bed, food, and a place to wash up for those in need.  IMHO stealing from another is wrong no matter how hungry you and your children may be.  Ask for assistance, don't steal it.
Title: Re: "paying own way"?
Post by: FreeBoB on April 14, 2007, 09:05:50 am
I don't know understand what is being said here.  We are certainly not interested in attracting 'anyone' to New Hampshire that is considering accepting/demanding government programs such as WIC.

So you admit that if someone falls on hard times as I stated in my original post, the Project has a problem with someone trying to support their family for a short while with Govt aide? ???

"...the Project has a problem with..."  The FSP does not take these kinds of positions. For the "positions" of the FSP, please read the Statement of Intent and the FAQs here: https://secure.freestateproject.org/join.jsp

Individuals take positions and have opinions on just about everything, of course, as evidenced here in this thread.  I would like to create an economy and a society where we have community and private forms of assistance for those who fall on hard times. That would allow us to phase out tax supported/government programs.
Title: Re: "paying own way"?
Post by: lloydbob1 on April 14, 2007, 09:14:50 am
As stated above, the 'Project' doesn't have an opinion on anything.  Most of the members that I know want to put an end to the government social services that steal from productive people and then use the funds to create a dependency class.  They understand that when you subsidize something, you get more of it, especially when career bureaucrats are involved.  As the unemployment Insurance payments are taken against their will,  some don't have any problem with collecting it.
Most of us believe that charity should be on a volunteer basis.
I notice you have not inquired about employment and rents in NH, just what many of us would call the 'freeloader' stuff.
Title: Re: "paying own way"?
Post by: kevinak on April 14, 2007, 09:20:12 am

Individuals take positions and have opinions on just about everything, of course, as evidenced here in this thread.  I would like to create an economy and a society where we have community and private forms of assistance for those who fall on hard times. That would allow us to phase out tax supported/government programs.

Thank you, this is what I was asking. As everybody knows there are people with a wide array of ideas and beliefs. I was just trying to get an idea of how most people in the Project felt on this subject. There are right wingers and left wingers in every "situation" I just wanted to get an idea of the overall consensus in the Project.
Title: Re: "paying own way"?
Post by: kevinak on April 14, 2007, 09:23:37 am

I notice you have not inquired about employment and rents in NH, just what many of us would call the 'freeloader' stuff.


My employer has a plant in New Hampshire, all I would have to do is transfer there and they would move me and and find me an affordable place to live. I was just asking a question. Are you implying something?
Title: Re: "paying own way"?
Post by: margomaps on April 14, 2007, 09:52:32 am

I notice you have not inquired about employment and rents in NH, just what many of us would call the 'freeloader' stuff.


My employer has a plant in New Hampshire, all I would have to do is transfer there and they would move me and and find me an affordable place to live. I was just asking a question. Are you implying something?

Look, most of us in the FSP are libertarian or libertariain-leaning.  Usually libertarians are in favor of reducing or eliminating government welfare programs and replacing them with private charities.  Since your only concern so far seems to be finding out whether "the Project supports" the use of such government programs, you shouldn't be surprised to come across people who are uneasy about your motives.

Simple equation: on one side, most of us want a lot less government involvement; on the other side you seem to be fishing for support of government involvement in a particular area.  It is not hard to see tension between the two sides of this equation.
Title: Re: "paying own way"?
Post by: lloydbob1 on April 14, 2007, 09:56:47 am

I notice you have not inquired about employment and rents in NH, just what many of us would call the 'freeloader' stuff.


My employer has a plant in New Hampshire, all I would have to do is transfer there and they would move me and and find me an affordable place to live. I was just asking a question. Are you implying something?

Then you have an opportunity to move to NH that most don't have. 
I was making an observation.
 We don't try to discourage people from joining, but, if your mission in life is making sure that government programs that you describe continue, you will be lonely in NH.

Many of the folks in NH are volunteering  to help others.  I heard where some Porcs are trying to help a widow recently left with 9 children with some transportation and house improvements.  Almost before the Freestaters landed on the ground in NH the Liberty Scholarship Fund was started and giving out scholarships.  We're trying to hook up with handicap agencies to build wheelchair ramps with donated materials with us supplying the labor.  I would love to see hundreds of us show up for Blood Drives wearing our FSP T shirts!  I think something was mentioned about giving blood at Porcfest, but, I don't know what has been arranged.
I am reminded by what I have said here I need to make a couple of emails!
Title: Re: "paying own way"?
Post by: kevinak on April 14, 2007, 10:53:05 am

Simple equation: on one side, most of us want a lot less government involvement; on the other side you seem to be fishing for support of government involvement in a particular area.  It is not hard to see tension between the two sides of this equation.

Do I believe we need a lot less Govt? Yes. Do I believe that the Govt sticks its "nose" into citizens business? Yes. Do I believe that we need to be less dependent on some Govt agencies? Yes. I was simply asking a question based on what I've read on another website, to see if everybody was as radical as this member seems to be. Do I support the Mission of the Free State Project? YES. I truly believe that we as Americans need to stand up for our freedoms and liberties.

But, we also need to pay taxes to defend this Nation from others. We need to pay the soldiers that are defending this country here and abroad every day. And buy the things that they need to do their jobs. This member is totally against taxes and other things that I see as a necessity to maintain this country as a peaceful place to live.

I am sorry if I offended anyone with my question, it was just wondering about the stance of the members as a whole.
Title: Re: "paying own way"?
Post by: kevinak on April 14, 2007, 11:02:42 am


Many of the folks in NH are volunteering  to help others.  I heard where some Porcs are trying to help a widow recently left with 9 children with some transportation and house improvements.  Almost before the Freestaters landed on the ground in NH the Liberty Scholarship Fund was started and giving out scholarships.  We're trying to hook up with handicap agencies to build wheelchair ramps with donated materials with us supplying the labor.  I would love to see hundreds of us show up for Blood Drives wearing our FSP T shirts!  I think something was mentioned about giving blood at Porcfest, but, I don't know what has been arranged.
I am reminded by what I have said here I need to make a couple of emails!


That is something worth while and proactive. I truly believe that if more people did things like this then we could do away with a lot of Govt subsidies that around today.

We don't try to discourage people from joining, but, if your mission in life is making sure that government programs that you describe continue, you will be lonely in NH.


No that is not my mission in life. I believe that these Govt programs are deeply infested with fraud and mismanagement just like most of the Govt. If an organization can come up with a way to help people that have fallen on hard times, to assist in an emergency situation, that would be more beneficial and productive.
Title: Re: "paying own way"?
Post by: margomaps on April 14, 2007, 12:50:17 pm
Do I believe we need a lot less Govt? Yes. Do I believe that the Govt sticks its "nose" into citizens business? Yes. Do I believe that we need to be less dependent on some Govt agencies? Yes. I was simply asking a question based on what I've read on another website, to see if everybody was as radical as this member seems to be. Do I support the Mission of the Free State Project? YES. I truly believe that we as Americans need to stand up for our freedoms and liberties.

Awesome!  I think your ideas fit in well with the FSP's mission.  I hope you decide to join the project, move to NH, and help make the state more free.

Quote
But, we also need to pay taxes to defend this Nation from others. We need to pay the soldiers that are defending this country here and abroad every day. And buy the things that they need to do their jobs. This member is totally against taxes and other things that I see as a necessity to maintain this country as a peaceful place to live.

There is a lot of debate amongst the FSP members (and int the libertarian community at large) about how much government is needed.  Some want a return of the government to its constitutionally-mandated role.  Others want to go much further and strip government down to the tiniest of roles.

As for your point about funding the military, there's a lot of debate on that subject as well.  Many libertarians would argue that if our foreign policy weren't so interventionist, we'd have vastly fewer enemies, and thus have less of a need to spend as much on the military.  However, I'd also wager that most libertarians do view funding the defense of our country as one of the 'acceptable' taxes.  Plenty of debate on just how much it needs to be funded though!

Quote
I am sorry if I offended anyone with my question, it was just wondering about the stance of the members as a whole.

I don't think you offended anyone.  You may have inadvertantly pressed a few people's button on this issue though.  :)
Title: MY thoughts.
Post by: Quantrill on April 14, 2007, 02:22:57 pm
The way I look at it is this:  Gov't "assistance" programs are unnecessary and cruel.  I say cruel because there are so many people who get caught up in finding "free money" from the gov't and they neglect their own families in the process.  There is no incentive to work, educate yourself, take care of your children etc... when the state will do this for you.  These people then become dependent on the welfare state and the cycle continues with their children. 

While I would love for all those programs to be abolished overnight, I don't think that is feasible right now.  Unfortunately, most Americans have been "weaned" off their freedoms and are completely ill-prepared to take care of themselves and their family.  So instead of saying "No more medicaid.  You're on your own."  We should be cutting these programs bit by bit, helping these people out through private organizations and encouraging people to become more self-sufficient.  "Wean" them off gov't help, so to speak.

People in New Hampshire seem to be a fairly independent bunch and there was a Bill (not sure if it passed or has gone through the senate yet) that would ACTIVELY LOOK FOR PEOPLE TO GET ON GOV'T ASSISTANCE!  Apparently there weren't enough people receiving gov't help so they felt the need to recruit people to become wards of the state.  Ridiculous, if you ask me.

Do I fault people for receiving gov't help?  Not usually.  When my sister had a kid she had him put on whatever type of medical insurance is available for newborns (medicaid, medicare, i don't know).  But she refused to accept medical insurance for herself.  Her line of thinking was:  "I can't afford insurance for myself, but that's my fault.  My baby shouldn't have to suffer because I can't afford insurance for him."  I have no problem with this line of thinking.  Do what you have to, but PLEASE don't become totally dependent on gov't help.  Don't forget that the money for these programs are payed for by everyone, regardless of whether or not they use the system. 

Title: Re: "paying own way"?
Post by: sj on April 14, 2007, 04:19:35 pm
Do I believe we need a lot less Govt? Yes. Do I believe that the Govt sticks its "nose" into citizens business? Yes. Do I believe that we need to be less dependent on some Govt agencies? Yes. I was simply asking a question based on what I've read on another website, to see if everybody was as radical as this member seems to be. Do I support the Mission of the Free State Project? YES. I truly believe that we as Americans need to stand up for our freedoms and liberties.

But, we also need to pay taxes to defend this Nation from others. We need to pay the soldiers that are defending this country here and abroad every day. And buy the things that they need to do their jobs. This member is totally against taxes and other things that I see as a necessity to maintain this country as a peaceful place to live.

I am sorry if I offended anyone with my question, it was just wondering about the stance of the members as a whole.

Sounds like you agree on the important points.  You won't agree with all members on everything (or else it'd be boring right? :)).  From what I've seen, you and the FSP would probably be a good fit.  Hope to meet you there one day.

I don't think you offended anyone.  Most on this board like to debate though, so feel free to jump in.
Title: Re: "paying own way"?
Post by: lloydbob1 on April 14, 2007, 06:06:55 pm

Simple equation: on one side, most of us want a lot less government involvement; on the other side you seem to be fishing for support of government involvement in a particular area.  It is not hard to see tension between the two sides of this equation.

Do I believe we need a lot less Govt? Yes. Do I believe that the Govt sticks its "nose" into citizens business? Yes. Do I believe that we need to be less dependent on some Govt agencies? Yes. I was simply asking a question based on what I've read on another website, to see if everybody was as radical as this member seems to be. Do I support the Mission of the Free State Project? YES. I truly believe that we as Americans need to stand up for our freedoms and liberties.

But, we also need to pay taxes to defend this Nation from others. We need to pay the soldiers that are defending this country here and abroad every day. And buy the things that they need to do their jobs. This member is totally against taxes and other things that I see as a necessity to maintain this country as a peaceful place to live.

I am sorry if I offended anyone with my question, it was just wondering about the stance of the members as a whole.

You would be hard pressed to offend anyone on this forum.  Do to the government inventing nukes and supplying the rest of the world with them and the knowledge to deliver them to us there is some argument for defense.  Developing an effective anti-missile system and keeping the missile subs might work.  I would disband all of the other military.  Needless to say no military in any other country.
Title: Re: "paying own way"?
Post by: Ogre on April 16, 2007, 10:21:57 am
As others have mentioned, you're going to find a very wide variety of opinions from the members of the FSP.

As for government-provided welfare, my personal opinion begs a question: what in the world did people do before the government invented welfare?  That's where the solutions lie, in my opinion (and yes, I know the answer, it's a rhetorical question).

And the radical tax position -- I'm finding more and more the "keyword" in politics is "compromise."  If you want to get anywhere, you have to "compromise."  So, if 0 is neutral and positive numbers are more statist and negative numbers are freedom-based, compromise will be somewhere between the two positions.  So if I favor a -5 freedom position, the statists will plan for compromise -- they'll take a position at 25 to get compromise: 15.  In order to go with compromise, now I have to take a position of -25 just to remain neutral.  So I think we're seeing more radical positions stated in order to allow "compromise" to actually move a little bit towards freedom.

Then again, the FSP does boast some members who are total anarchists, too.  :)
Title: Re: "paying own way"?
Post by: cigarlover on January 16, 2008, 07:18:58 pm
Im new here but wanted to throw in a couple pennies worth on an old subject. In my view everyone can get off of these federal programs a lot faster when they stop stealing our money from us on a regular basis. I know I could do a lot more with the 18k a year they steal in taxes than they do with it. With that extra money every year I would never need a helping hand from Uncle sam. The way I see it now is they take all of my extra money and leave me with little to invest. I would much prefer to fund my own retirement and live my life free than rely on them to have some program in place if I ever needed it.
Title: Re: "paying own way"?
Post by: Power Penguin on January 16, 2008, 07:52:12 pm
Just stop paying them! I don't, whenever possible.
Title: Re: "paying own way"?
Post by: Russell Kanning on January 16, 2008, 08:53:36 pm
But, we also need to pay taxes to defend this Nation from others. We need to pay the soldiers that are defending this country here and abroad every day. And buy the things that they need to do their jobs. This member is totally against taxes and other things that I see as a necessity to maintain this country as a peaceful place to live.
You might want to do that sort of thing, but what happens when I don't want to? What do you think this country should do to me if I decide to stop paying taxes to pay for all of those activities?
Title: Re: "paying own way"?
Post by: lloydbob1 on January 16, 2008, 09:29:56 pm
Put you in jail at a cost of 30-50K per year ;D
Title: Re: "paying own way"?
Post by: maxxoccupancy on January 16, 2008, 09:34:49 pm
Muni jails, I think, are 29K.  State prison is $25K.

I know that from the fiscal impact of some of the bills being proposed.
Title: Re: "paying own way"?
Post by: Russell Kanning on January 16, 2008, 09:39:57 pm
He's talking fed taxes for fed guns baby ... that's like $280 a day ... maybe cheaper when they get you down to texarkana.

I'm with you Lloyd ... it is sortof disturbing when someone's first posts on this forum concern how we will react when he goes on welfare.
Title: Re: "paying own way"?
Post by: MikeLindgren on January 16, 2008, 10:10:37 pm
Instead of building "mega churches" like we have here in the Southeast, perhaps humanitarian organisations, and such should pick up the slack, and actually help people financially rather than build 20,000+ member "Jesus Domes" with massive Television budgets, and have pastors driving Lamborghinis(true story), and contribute to the poor. If your church can afford a 100+ million dollar facility, your church COULD have afforded to offer financial aid to those needing to get on their feet. This shouldn't be the government's job, it shouldn't come out of my pocket or yours.

In my opinion it shows a misallocation of resources, a self-serving nature, and a grand example of exactly why the government is stepping in to steal from me to pay the poor.

Because rather than live up to principle, it's far more convenient for said pastor to live in a 13-million-dollar mansion (tax free) and let me pick up the tab for his lack of charitable donations.

I am poor enough as it is, and no governmental body has stepped in to save me.

I wonder how many programs were in place to help the colonial poor in the infancy of the Republic...
Title: Re: "paying own way"?
Post by: lloydbob1 on January 16, 2008, 10:14:13 pm
He's talking fed taxes for fed guns baby ... that's like $280 a day ... maybe cheaper when they get you down to texarkana.

I'm with you Lloyd ... it is sortof disturbing when someone's first posts on this forum concern how we will react when he goes on welfare.

Where did that guy go? ;D
Title: Re: "paying own way"?
Post by: maxxoccupancy on January 17, 2008, 01:00:31 am
Hey, there's no shame in working the system if you're working to change the system.  If the guv of luv is going to pay you while you work to downsize it, hey, nothing wrong with that.  It would be great to get some guy testifying in the General Court about how many things are wrong with the nanny state.

I'd love to go in and promote Individual Savings Accounts as opposed to unemployment, not to mention welfare, disability, workman's comp, and every other state run insurance monopoly they force us to pay for.
Title: Re: "paying own way"?
Post by: Keyser Soce on January 17, 2008, 04:06:13 am
Im new here but wanted to throw in a couple pennies worth on an old subject. In my view everyone can get off of these federal programs a lot faster when they stop stealing our money from us on a regular basis. I know I could do a lot more with the 18k a year they steal in taxes than they do with it. With that extra money every year I would never need a helping hand from Uncle sam. The way I see it now is they take all of my extra money and leave me with little to invest. I would much prefer to fund my own retirement and live my life free than rely on them to have some program in place if I ever needed it.

You are dead on there. I have a friend who just filled out a check to the feds for $28 grand. Meanwhile, he has a brother and a mother collecting welfare. I say, give him back his money and kick them off the rolls.
Title: Re: "paying own way"?
Post by: cigarlover on January 17, 2008, 06:48:24 am
The big stories in Boston the last couple of days have been the firefighters filling in for their bosses for as little as a day at the 10k a year higher salary, then getting permanently injured and collecting forever at the higher rates. One guy moved a filing cabinet, now sits home forever to collect his disability pay, another guy tripped on a curb, same story. Then theres the stories of people collecting unemployment for 24 and 25 years!!!!! They have made a career out of the system as many do. Its just disgusting to see it and know that all of my tax dollars are going to fund this garbage.
Title: Re: "paying own way"?
Post by: John Edward Mercier on January 17, 2008, 11:03:58 am
Its important to remember there are different types of plans. An associated insurance plan where the employee through their efforts pays into, is much different than welfare... though no 'opt out' exists. Other insurances are carried by a company/corporation for the purpose of limiting liability...
As for charity, we do what we can in NH... but mass opposition exists under most circumstances. And the definition of 'need' is far too great.
 
Title: Re: "paying own way"?
Post by: TEBON on January 17, 2008, 12:05:16 pm
my best friend works for the NH Department of Health and Human Services (welfare) . . . she says that NH is very strict and very thorough in its giving away of money. . . now this doesn't mean that it's not easy to get welfare, but it's far easier in other states like MA.

She tells me things that make me cringe, and she is delighted to send anything she finds worrysome along to their investigation team.  She has become very jaded and much more libertarian thinking since joining there after college. . . she was a liberal. . .but she now sees her money being taken from her check to pay for such services. . .and sees that some of the people receiving welfare make MORE money than she does giving it out.

Unemployment, as far as I understand it, is paid for mostly by surcharges to companies that regularly lay off people.  NH unemployment doesn't hold a candle to other states (like MA again). . . I am on Unemployment as we speak. . . I haven't gotten a check in 5 weeks. . . I think they've forgotten about me. . .but when I do get checks the amount is for $174 a week.  By no means is this a rich living, but I don't have a lot at the time being, and it's fine to get me through.  In MA I would be making in the range of $320-$400 a week.

The difference is that NH stays on you, they want you to find a new job so they don't have to pay you, and while still more lax than I would like. . . they at least check on the jobs you've applied for, and make you go to a meeting.  MA does not, and in experience all you have to do in MA is go into a McDonalds. . . file an application with the manager. . .tell them you're looking for full time, days 9-5, full health insurance and $18-$20 an hour. . . obviously they're not going to hire you. . .and you've filled in one of the three spots you need to "apply for"

I want Employment Security to make us work. . .I mean, what else are we going to do besides sit around and hope to be called back soon. . . . the job market sucks but at least I try and find new work everyday.

I like the fact that there are more and more food pantries coming about, donations of food from companies and good natured citizens.  My family in our times of need didn't turn to welfare, but to the Pettingill House in Salisbury. . . and in turn, now that my family has gotten back on its feet and prospered. . . give a check to them every month for about $50. 

That's how it should be in my opinion.  . . charity, not force.
Title: Re: "paying own way"?
Post by: sandm000 on January 17, 2008, 02:27:19 pm
Can I put in $0.04?

First how can you pay your own way, when you have 4 kids and can't pay for at least 1 of them to eat?  Why did you go and have that kid?  And don't say you don't believe in abortion or contraception, because nobody made you have sex in the first place.  If funds were shaky with 3 kids you shouldn't have had the fourth.

Also why the hell would you put your baby on formula, when breastmilk has been proven to be so much better? It also doesn't cost $30/can.  (Admittedly if you buy a good pump and accouterments it'll set you back $100, but that's what 2 weeks of formula) and you can freeze it and store it for when you need it.

I think that if you are on "public" assistance you have to hear these things.  I'm paying for your kids to live.  You're stealing from my kids to feed yours.  Remember that.

All that said.  Hard times do come up, I've given to two food pantries here in NH, and given food donations for the Hannaford's Tons of Turkey events.  Some people will not be able to deal in the free market.  Some of us do not want to lose our humanity, and realize that compassion is necessary.  We resent being forced to help by the government, because it loses its meaning when you're forced to do it.

Plus I don't have a lot of extra time to help out right now, what with having a job, raising two kids, and apparently taking care of your 4.
Title: Re: "paying own way"?
Post by: maxxoccupancy on January 17, 2008, 11:28:18 pm
The State of California is currently paying me $450/week while I'm off the ship.  Technically, I'm complying with every rule the unemployment office has set, so I qualify.  I just fill out a form every two weeks, and I get paid.

Washington state was worse.  They now pay up to $575 a week, and you can pull in a $40 a day stipend for one of their "job training" programs, where you learn skills you might one day use.  Don't want to do job training?  You can collect unemployment benefits from anywhere--Thailand, Costa Rica, Belize--and Washington continues paying out.  Just go online and fill out that form each week.

CA disability pays even more--$892 a week--and almost any disability will work.  I have a friend who claims "emotional disability." This allows him to park in disabled parking spots, take his "service dog" into restaurants (because disability rules trump health codes), and the manager is not even allowed to ask about the dog, which is viewed as harassment.  Of course, many continue making money under the table, just being careful not to get caught.

Most people I've asked have lost faith in governmental "safety net" programs, which always seem to disqualify you when you're in need, and only end up paying you to turn down legitemate work.  Lots of people work this safety net while hustling.
Title: Re: "paying own way"?
Post by: TEBON on January 18, 2008, 07:33:28 am
the service dogs I've had a problem with.  When I worked at a hotel the guy brought his dog all over the fucking hotel. . . going up to the 4th floor for the 'view'  (he was blind) . . his room was on the first floor, far away from anyone's.

the next day he checked out and someone checked into his room that was allergic to dogs.  Since we were already overbooked there was no place to put him.  The housekeepers cleaned the crap out of that room and it was still all dog smell.  Besides the fact that the dog kept barking all night.

find out later on, that the guy was not blind, the dog was not a medical dog. . . it had the vest. . . but the guy made it. . . it had a card (badge) but the guy made it on his computer.  Just caused a whole bunch of shit because he couldn't leave the dog in the doggy area of our hotel.
Title: Re: "paying own way"?
Post by: maxxoccupancy on January 18, 2008, 11:49:13 am
That's almost as bad as criminals putting on cop's uniforms and robbing people.  That's been a common practice for a while, and even some cops have been fooled by this one.

Unconvicted criminals obtain law degrees, run for office, even become doctors.  They become ingratiated with our political good ol' boy network, where public scrutiny is actually much, much lower.  Child molesters, rapists, drug addicts, and even satanists have found refuge in places of authority, where they are considered beyond reproach.  The mentality never changes--they just haven't been caught yet.
Title: Re: "paying own way"?
Post by: Keyser Soce on January 18, 2008, 02:07:33 pm
That's almost as bad as criminals putting on cop's uniforms and robbing people.  That's been a common practice for a while, and even some cops have been fooled by this one.

Unconvicted criminals obtain law degrees, run for office, even become doctors.  They become ingratiated with our political good ol' boy network, where public scrutiny is actually much, much lower.  Child molesters, rapists, drug addicts, and even satanists have found refuge in places of authority, where they are considered beyond reproach.  The mentality never changes--they just haven't been caught yet.

Your quote seems to imply that Satanists and drug addicts are on par with child molesters and rapists? A Satanist is exercising their right to freedom of religion. How someone worships or what they put in their body is irrelevant and should not be compared to violent assaults.
Title: Re: "paying own way"?
Post by: maxxoccupancy on January 18, 2008, 07:48:14 pm
I don't think that John Q. Public would vote for either a coke addict or a Satanist, especially if you read some of the stuff in John W. DeKamp's Franklin Coverup: Child Abuse, Satanism, and Murder in Nebraska.

What I find surprising is that even many libertarians refuse to believe that people in government would be involved in child and drug trafficking, torture, savings and loan scams, and human sacrafice.  Strangely, nearly everyone accepts that this kind of thing goes on, but none of those satanists and child rapists could be involved with public officials.  This widespread attitude of denial attracts some of the worst criminals to the political process and to positions of authority.

Hell, half the libertarians I've talked to insist that our public officials had NO IDEA that al-Queda was planning to attack us on 9/11, despite the fact that 14 governments warned us, and the FBI alone had received 147 separate warnings ahead of time.  How could they have known?!

Bottom line, lots of unconvicted criminals going into politics, getting little or no real time behind bars.
Title: Re: "paying own way"?
Post by: Dreepa on January 18, 2008, 10:37:55 pm
The State of California is currently paying me $450/week while I'm off the ship.  Technically, I'm complying with every rule the unemployment office has set, so I qualify.  I just fill out a form every two weeks, and I get paid.
couldn't you just get on another ship?
CA pays you even though you don't live in CA?
Title: Re: "paying own way"?
Post by: Crocuta on January 18, 2008, 11:10:04 pm
The State of California is currently paying me $450/week while I'm off the ship.  Technically, I'm complying with every rule the unemployment office has set, so I qualify.  I just fill out a form every two weeks, and I get paid.

...

Lots of people work this safety net while hustling.

Apparently.

Are you actually proud that you're pulling this off?
Title: Re: "paying own way"?
Post by: Cheng on January 19, 2008, 06:22:35 am
Hi all,
I'm new here but have been looking into the FSP for about 4 weeks now and have been thinkning of moving to NH even before I came across the FSP. This group of people just seals the deal for me. I happen to be in the same profession as maxx and want to let you know that he is not "getting away" with anything. When I first stated working 15 years ago I used to work 6 months on and six off. Who in thier right mind is going to want to go right back out to work after 6 months of isolation? This isn't your typical 9-5 job where you get to go home every night. When you report to a ship you are there 24/7 pretty much available for whatever goes down during your regular work hours and after. Basically most mariners have reliefs so that when you are off your counterpart is on and if you decide to go work for some other company then you will loose your sinority and will have to sail in a lower position. You collect unemployment from the state the company works out of not the state you live in. They put the money into the system so that we can collect something while we are unemployed since that is what you are as soon as you sign off articles.
Title: Re: "paying own way"?
Post by: TEBON on January 19, 2008, 11:15:39 am
yeah I found that out when I worked for a place in Seabrook, NH. . .but lived over the border in Salisbury, MA. . . so that's why I get $177 a week (when I do get checks) and my friends in MA get over $300 lol
Title: Re: "paying own way"?
Post by: CA_Libertarian on January 19, 2008, 01:08:14 pm
Sounds to me like Maxx is getting unemployment insurance benefits.  Here in CA we're forced to buy this insurance through the government.  I see no issue with getting back the money you're forced to pay into the system.

I, for example, took state and federal grants to help pay my way through college.  All said and done I've taken less than half out compared to what I put in.  I figure I owe a little for the roadways and police/fire services I've used over the years.

Now, if someone is being a leeching more out of the system than they put in, then I would say they may as well be stealing the money right out of my pocket.
Title: Re: "paying own way"?
Post by: maxxoccupancy on January 19, 2008, 01:23:21 pm
My laptop crashed last night while trying to respond, but basically, the other guys said what I had said.  I've been trying to get my union to trade unemployment benefits for a higher vacation check.  That is, to replace 18 for 30 supplemental (plus unenjoyment) with a simple 30 for 30 vacation.  That way, we could continue to work standby jobs on the side.  This is a serious concern in the maritime industry, and most nonunion outfits now just pay the full vacation amount to avoid high unemployment compensation.
Title: Re: "paying own way"?
Post by: sj on January 19, 2008, 09:01:32 pm
Hi all,
I'm new here but have been looking into the FSP for about 4 weeks now and have been thinkning of moving to NH even before I came across the FSP. This group of people just seals the deal for me. I happen to be in the same profession as maxx and want to let you know that he is not "getting away" with anything. When I first stated working 15 years ago I used to work 6 months on and six off. Who in thier right mind is going to want to go right back out to work after 6 months of isolation? This isn't your typical 9-5 job where you get to go home every night. When you report to a ship you are there 24/7 pretty much available for whatever goes down during your regular work hours and after. Basically most mariners have reliefs so that when you are off your counterpart is on and if you decide to go work for some other company then you will loose your sinority and will have to sail in a lower position. You collect unemployment from the state the company works out of not the state you live in. They put the money into the system so that we can collect something while we are unemployed since that is what you are as soon as you sign off articles.

Welcome, Cheng!  Start a thread and tell us a bit about yourself!
Title: Re: "paying own way"?
Post by: Keyser Soce on January 22, 2008, 01:30:53 am
I don't think that John Q. Public would vote for either a coke addict or a Satanist,

I guess you missed mayor Marion Barry and every member of the skulls.
Title: Re: "paying own way"?
Post by: maxxoccupancy on January 24, 2008, 10:06:50 pm
... if they knew.
Title: Re: "paying own way"?
Post by: error on January 25, 2008, 01:22:08 pm
... if they knew.

Oh, at least in the case of Marion Barry, they knew. "He may not be perfect, but he's perfect for D.C.!"
Title: Re: "paying own way"?
Post by: lasse on January 25, 2008, 03:09:32 pm
Hi all,
I'm new here but have been looking into the FSP for about 4 weeks now and have been thinkning of moving to NH even before I came across the FSP. This group of people just seals the deal for me. I happen to be in the same profession as maxx and want to let you know that he is not "getting away" with anything. When I first stated working 15 years ago I used to work 6 months on and six off. Who in thier right mind is going to want to go right back out to work after 6 months of isolation? This isn't your typical 9-5 job where you get to go home every night. When you report to a ship you are there 24/7 pretty much available for whatever goes down during your regular work hours and after. Basically most mariners have reliefs so that when you are off your counterpart is on and if you decide to go work for some other company then you will loose your sinority and will have to sail in a lower position. You collect unemployment from the state the company works out of not the state you live in. They put the money into the system so that we can collect something while we are unemployed since that is what you are as soon as you sign off articles.
I have to ask, because I am confused. Do you mean that you are officially unemployed once you leave the ship for your off period and then you get a new contract each time you go on board and your relief leaves? ???
Title: Re: "paying own way"?
Post by: Cheng on January 25, 2008, 05:09:39 pm
That would be correct.
Title: Re: "paying own way"?
Post by: maxxoccupancy on January 25, 2008, 08:26:47 pm
Uhhhh... I'm not feelin' a lotta guilt here.  The gub'mint takes my money and makes me jump through the hoopla hoops to get SOME of it back.  If you're REALLY good, and you bust your butt, you can cut your effective fed-state-local down to about 15%.

Lots of paperwork, but dat der gub'mint cain't git mah moaneh!
Title: Re: "paying own way"?
Post by: lasse on January 26, 2008, 11:58:46 am
That would be correct.
What's the pay like for a year with that kind of arrangement?
Title: Re: "paying own way"?
Post by: Cheng on January 27, 2008, 08:26:59 am
Let me just say that it is more than I could make working in my home town or anywhere shore side. There are different contracts for different companies, unions and ship's and I happen to work with one of the lowest paying contracts around (gov't). Maxx knows my pain since he actually worked for the same outfit I do for a little while but he wised up and left and I have been with them for 15 years.
Title: Re: "paying own way"?
Post by: maxxoccupancy on January 27, 2008, 03:02:02 pm
Cheng, you're not with the SIU, are you?  That's the worst of union and non-union bundled together.  Even in nonunion jobs, the company treats and pays better because they have to worry about turnover.

You might want to look into Tidewater or some other outfit, eh.  I think that Sabine and a few others pay and treat their people pretty well.
Title: Re: "paying own way"?
Post by: Cheng on January 27, 2008, 04:21:48 pm
No, AMO. You probably heard about the latest with them.
Title: Re: "paying own way"?
Post by: maxxoccupancy on January 28, 2008, 09:40:45 pm
Aw man.  AMO sucks.  If I had my license, I'd just drop those guys and go for a permanent job somewhere else.  They're just going to screw you on your pension, anyway.  With a permanent job, you can, at least, get into some kind of stock/401k plan, then sue AMO later to get your vested pension benefits.  That's easier to do from a position of employment outside of AMO.

I know that all of the SIU guys are getting attornies on retainer right before they retire.
Title: Re: "paying own way"?
Post by: CA_Libertarian on January 29, 2008, 01:25:46 am
15 years of experience and you're working for the one of the worst companies in the industry?  I hope you don't take offense at my candid question: are you really that bad at your job that you can't find something better?
Title: Re: "paying own way"?
Post by: Cheng on January 29, 2008, 08:35:11 am
CA, no offence taken. It's not that I am not good at my job, it's that almost all of my time is on diesel electric with only one year on gas turbines and if I were to switch companies and go to a different platform such as a steam plant or direct drive diesel, I would have to start at a lower postion and after sailing as Chief engineer for awhile I really don't feel like having people tell me what to do anymore and also I only have 5 more years until I have my 20 years in to retire. Not so bad a time to suck it up plus I'll be 42 when I retire and even be able to start a new profession hopefully in NH and retire at around 62 and collect another pension. I'm hoping to go up to NH from Long Island soon for about a week to scout out the Manchester area for a place to buy(cheap but re-sellable) to just get up there soon and then search from there for a more permament place. I'm really looking foward to getting involved in the political aspect but like a lot of people I have to get my shit together, tie up loose ends, figure out what to do with my house here and then get out. Anyone recommend a place to stay in the Manchester area for about a week?
Title: Re: "paying own way"?
Post by: maxxoccupancy on January 29, 2008, 11:37:54 am
Due in part to the unofficial Free City Project there, Manchester is usually pretty full with activists.  You are welcome to stay at my house in Seabrook as long as you want.  The weather is much nicer and the house is still somewhat empty.

The two big job markets areas are Manch and the seacoast, and I'm starting to sea the coast as a better area to do business--more visitors, less crime, lower taxes in Seabrook, etc...  You might consider getting some kind of business going before you finally retire, as they usually take a couple of years before they're profitable.  There are plenty of trustworthy porcupines who are willing to run things while you're away  at sea making the "big bucks," as the trust factor is much higher than the general population.

We're also in need of more fsp businesses, at the moment.

BTW, AMO is actually a "union" or prof. assoc.  It really sucks, though.