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FSP -- General Discussion => The Friendly Forum => Topic started by: jeanius on July 18, 2005, 07:47:55 am

Title: Birth of a Safe Place for Newcomers and Civilized Conversationalists
Post by: jeanius on July 18, 2005, 07:47:55 am
As most of you know, FSP's key goal is to recruit.  We want to find people interested in liberty, have them meet us, learn about the FSP and perhaps, if we're lucky, participate in our endeavor.  Not everyone has a good reaction to our forum.  It can be a difficult place, on occasion, to share ideas, ask questions, etc.  Some people have been scared off with the more "free for all with some limitations" rule for the forum as a whole.  So, we have created this area where new people can safely enter and be welcomed and not have to do "battle" right off the bat.  :)  We may even draw in a few "old" participants who are uncomfortable with our "old" forum.  Let's see if we can show visitors our best behavior, eh?  ;)

Jean
Title: Re: Birth of a Safe Place for Newcomers and Civilized Conversationalists
Post by: jeanius on July 18, 2005, 09:08:50 am
At 46, Shorty, I don't qualify for kindergarten.  I have spent many of my adult years working in stressful work environments and then switched to child rearing and home educating which is also a stressful work environment.  I'm an adult, well educated, and qualify for post-graduate type discussions.  However, that doesn't mean I'm interested in some of the caustic and fiery conflicts that occur on our forum.  I would actually say that some of those qualify more as "kindergarten" level than this area.  However, how about we agree to live and let live?  You don't have to come here and I won't go there and we can each have the environment we want.  Eh?  Sort of libertarianism in action. :)

Jean
Title: Re: Birth of a Safe Place for Newcomers and Civilized Conversationalists
Post by: unplugged on July 18, 2005, 07:24:36 pm
Jean,

I don't know what this "Shorty" wrote to you, but I am sorry that you had to write a 'rebuttal' response to someone regarding this new forum.  We all have the right to say, think, and write what we want, but I think some people take that as a license to be rude and irresponsible with their words.  There are some forums out here that look interesting, but upon review are rife with sometimes spiteful posts between some of the members.  It almost seems as some of these members have taken over these areas, devouring any 'outsider' who dares to enter and post a reply.  It is a definite turn-off to see some of these posts and they surely do not encourage many new people to join in and feel a part of the bigger movement.  Frankly, if I had not seen the Libertarian Women forum I would have had no interest in becoming a member, based on the other forums I had looked at on this site.  I do not wish to infringe on anyone's right to their thoughts and opinions, but I think it is tacky for someone to come to this forum and start that nitpicking that goes on in some of the other forums. 

That being said, good luck to you with this new endeavour, Jean!  I hope to read some good posts here.

Sandra
Title: Re: Birth of a Safe Place for Newcomers and Civilized Conversationalists
Post by: jeanius on July 19, 2005, 08:06:31 am
Thanks Sandra!  And I'm glad you found us here.  Yes, sometimes conversations in our forum get out of hand and if we're scaring off folks who might otherwise be interested in us that's a bad thing.  Freedom of speech is something we all value and a good balance can be hard to achieve.  (Certainly I can argue that freedom of speech has other goals than bickering, but ... :)  )  So, I'm grateful to our head of IT, Adam Rick, for letting me start this section and I hope we have many, many informative, enlightening, engaging and *civilized* conversations.  I look forward to them!

Jean
Title: Re: Birth of a Safe Place for Newcomers and Civilized Conversationalists
Post by: Brien on July 20, 2005, 03:10:48 pm
Jean:  I don't see this forum, this entire site, as anything different than I have seen in other forums on other sites.   People will always disagree and there will always be ignorant people who become rude and nasty to make their points.  I think it is human nature.  They don't have the creativity to argue sensibly or logically.  Best thing one can do when you run across these types is to ignore them.  Let them talk to themselves.  If no one pays attention to them, they will go away.  Trust me on this one.  I have seen it before.

However, that said, there is usually someone willing to "egg on" the rude and nasty poster.  Perhaps they think it is their mission in life to change others.  But I don't think one can ever change someone from acting in bad taste to being a considerate and interested participant in a civil forum looking to promote ideas, logic, and truth.  I have seen people presented with "facts" and they still will deny the truth of them.   Sometimes you just can't change another's way of thinking because they are narrow minded to begin with.  Change comes from within.

Good luck in your forum and I'll drop by from time to time to see how things are going here. :)
Title: Re: Birth of a Safe Place for Newcomers and Civilized Conversationalists
Post by: unplugged on July 20, 2005, 07:11:15 pm
In a brief response to Brien's post, I belong to another forum where the members actually ARE civil and respectful in all of the areas in the forum.  I do get the feeling, however, that civility is not the norm in many forums.  As for being "different", I re-read your first post here, Jean, and I don't see where you said that this forum was "different".  I do see it as a place where people can come to get their thoughts and questions out in a respectful place.  So, maybe in that respect, this forum IS different... :)  I liked reading Brien's thoughts and appreciate seeing them here.   Brien, I hope you stop by often... ;D

The thing about letting the rude people rant on and just ignoring them is that they take up space in an area they really care nothing about.  While they have the right to post what they want, in this forum, Jean, you have the right to move their posts to a more suitable forum, where their posts can be better appreciated and enjoyed.  Not everyone who posts on this message board seems to be concerned with getting a message out about FSP and/or things related.  Too much nitpicking junior high antics tends to keep some folks away who not only may be interested in the 'cause', but who also may have ways to better support it and help more widely spread the message about the FSP.  Who wants to be part of something whose message, at least as perceived on some of these message forum areas, is one of 'if you disagree with us we will pick on you until you pick up your pencil box and go home'?  :( 

I am hoping that this forum will encourage those with thoughts and ideas about freedom and liberty to write in and participate in an open and respectful dialogue.

Sandra
Title: Re: Birth of a Safe Place for Newcomers and Civilized Conversationalists
Post by: jeanius on July 21, 2005, 09:22:11 am
Thanks Brien and Sandra,

I agree Brien that folks behavior on forums is mostly something we just need to accept.  They come, they can be rude, they can be harsh, etc.  But like Sandy, I've had positive experiences with forums too.  I think raising the bar a bit will keep conversation more productive and informative, at least in this section, and that will provide a benefit to visitors here. 

I use myself as a barometer of sorts.  After a couple of brief forays into the state debate areas I quit visiting them.  Folks were *very* passionate on that topic.  I was looking for information, for calm discussion.  I didn't find it there and so did not return.  I'm a strong person and I know how to hold my own in a heated exchange.  But, I don't always want an observation or comment I make to be treated as an attack.  I think getting a calm response/question/observation in return is more helpful to me.   

We have new people come to the forum with some regularity.  Those folks in particular deserve a more careful welcoming.  And folks like me would like a safer place for conversation all the time.  It doesn't mean we won't disagree, but perhaps we will disagree in more productive ways.  :)

Jean
Title: Re: Birth of a Safe Place for Newcomers and Civilized Conversationalists
Post by: Brien on July 21, 2005, 09:58:42 am
Hi Jean:  Well I just received my first insult from a few "uninformed" regulars.  Go to the forum for "Moving.." and see the tread on the "Van".  One member commented that he would "gag" on my suggestion and another simply said:"What do expect, he is not one of us."

Now I have been a libertarian for many, many, years.   Even before it was fashionable for some.

Theses two "member" were not only uninformed on the issue but seemed bent upon ridicule as well.  I have thick skin and my response is laden with facts, not speculation.  It always amazes me how some "members" want to dismantle everything in sight but have no reasonable replacements.

Members such as these will only force prospective members to turn away with disdain.  These people are doing more harm than good for the movement.  It is a shame.
Title: Re: Birth of a Safe Place for Newcomers and Civilized Conversationalists
Post by: Russell Kanning on July 21, 2005, 10:10:57 am
Hi Jean:  Well I just received my first insult from a few "uniformed" regulars. 

Theses two "member" were not only uniformed on the issue but seemed bent upon ridicule as well.  I have thick skin and my response is laden with facts, not speculation.  It always amazes me how some "members" want to dismantle everything in sight but have no reasonable replacements.

Members such as these will only force prospective members to turn away with disdain.  These people are doing more harm than good for the movement.  It is a shame.
I don't have a uniform.....sometimes I am uninformed ;D
I am not a member ..... but a participant ;)
I don't have thick skin like yours...... but I don't run to Jean for protection. :P
I think you want to control others.....and I oppose you :)
Title: Re: Birth of a Safe Place for Newcomers and Civilized Conversationalists
Post by: Brien on July 21, 2005, 11:08:29 am
Hi Jean:  Well I just received my first insult from a few "uniformed" regulars. 

Theses two "member" were not only uniformed on the issue but seemed bent upon ridicule as well.  I have thick skin and my response is laden with facts, not speculation.  It always amazes me how some "members" want to dismantle everything in sight but have no reasonable replacements.

Members such as these will only force prospective members to turn away with disdain.  These people are doing more harm than good for the movement.  It is a shame.
I don't have a uniform.....sometimes I am uninformed ;D

I am not a member ..... but a participant ;)
I don't have thick skin like yours...... but I don't run to Jean for protection. :P
I think you want to control others.....and I oppose you :)

Well this really proves my point about mean spirited people who use ridicule to cover their ignorance.

I have no such desire to control others.  Another example of making yourself look foolish.

Sometimes I misspell words, don't you? Do you not like people in uniforms? 

I don't seek protection from anyone.  It seems to me that Jean started her forum to illustrate the likes of your posts.

You split hairs over semantics because you have nothing but rhetoric to add.  Where are your solutions, ideas, and creative statements?  I must have missed them.

You oppose me because you don't know me and I have a feeling you are devoid of solutions and creative ideas to solve the problems of government Diplodocus.  You have rhetoric and I have yet to see any real ideas that answer my posts. 

I oppose people who want to tear down society but offer no solutions to that which they want to destroy.  Are you one of them?  So far I haven't seen anything in answers to my posts that will convince me otherwise.
Title: Re: Birth of a Safe Place for Newcomers and Civilized Conversationalists
Post by: jeanius on July 21, 2005, 11:43:36 am
I'm not protecting anyone here Russell and you know it.  I would like to have an environment here for people who want to have rational discussion and avoid comments and reactions such as those described by Brien.  Those comments were *not* helpful. 

Would you really want someone, who is perhaps more timid than you, to be scared away from our forum?  Is being a bit more shy or a bit less inclined to want to do battle constantly mean we can't learn more about being libertarian or having a free society?  I have *not* lobbied for the forum as a whole to be more restricted, though I think a case could be made for that.  I have asked for this *section*.  Please, do us all the courtesy of not ridiculing or otherwise denigrating this area some of us value.  I'm asking nicely ... please respect our desire for civilized communication.

Jean
Title: Re: Birth of a Safe Place for Newcomers and Civilized Conversationalists
Post by: Brien on July 21, 2005, 12:01:19 pm
I'm not protecting anyone here Russell and you know it.  I would like to have an environment here for people who want to have rational discussion and avoid comments and reactions such as those described by Brien.  Those comments were *not* helpful. 

Would you really want someone, who is perhaps more timid than you, to be scared away from our forum?  Is being a bit more shy or a bit less inclined to want to do battle constantly mean we can't learn more about being libertarian or having a free society?  I have *not* lobbied for the forum as a whole to be more restricted, though I think a case could be made for that.  I have asked for this *section*.  Please, do us all the courtesy of not ridiculing or otherwise denigrating this area some of us value.  I'm asking nicely ... please respect our desire for civilized communication.

Jean


Jean:  I think you are a voice of reason in what can sometimes be misunderstood assumptions made by folks who sometimes don't even realize what they are doing.  But then again, maybe they do, but I will always give someone the proverbial benefit of the doubt.

I think the most important thing we can do here is discuss ideas, solutions and reforms which can generate enthusiasm so we can help change what I call government Diplodocus.  I don't think there is any room for negativity because that feeds upon itself and tends to grow like a fire out of control.  It's like someone throws a punch and then someone else returns that blow, and pretty soon there is a brawl going on.  What a waste of valuable time.  I have abandoned other forums just for such behavior.  People were more interested in arguing, name calling, and put downs, than discussing ideas that may lead to some solutions to the problems in modern society today.

Once again, thank you for demonstrating reason above emotion.
Title: Re: Birth of a Safe Place for Newcomers and Civilized Conversationalists
Post by: jeanius on July 21, 2005, 12:13:26 pm
Hey Brien,

I'm sorry you had trouble elsewhere in the forum.  I read the thread you referred to.  You did touch on one of the hot buttons that can cause a reaction.  Many of our participants are on the anarchist end of the spectrum.  Many are on the "limited government" side.  The anarchist side doesn't have much (well, maybe not *any*) tolerance of even limited government.  They will fly up in arms immediately about any state restrictions/limitations, etc.  That's the exciting and challenging aspect of creating a free society.  I *really* liked what you said about privatizing.  I, personally, think that's the best end solution.  I don't know if you've read Stossel's book, "Give Me a Break:  How I Exposed Hucksters, Cheats, and Scam Artists and Became the Scourge of the Liberal Media ...".  In this book Stossel brings up Underwriter Laboratories (UL) as an example.  They've tested and approved electrical devices for ages .. and well too.  I've used Consumer Reports fairly regularly for purchases.  Anyway, I don't want to get too far off topic but my point is that some folks write before thinking and don't always read carefully.  And also folks are very passionate about their viewpoints.  I do expect that such conversations can be civilly conducted here is a way that allows us to explore different angles of topics.

Jean
Title: Re: Birth of a Safe Place for Newcomers and Civilized Conversationalists
Post by: jeanius on July 21, 2005, 12:17:38 pm
Thanks Brien.  Arguing amonst ourselves and some of the less productive communications *are* a waste of time.  We have so much work to do.  :)

Jean
Title: Re: Birth of a Safe Place for Newcomers and Civilized Conversationalists
Post by: Brien on July 21, 2005, 12:43:39 pm
Thanks Brien.  Arguing amonst ourselves and some of the less productive communications *are* a waste of time.  We have so much work to do.  :)

Jean


You're welcome Jean.  I think you touched on a very important aspect of this forum when you wrote that some posters will surely scare timid folks away with some of their posts.  I have already seen the mistrust of my friend Russ in some of his posts.  I don't wish to single him out but he did attack me and made up assumptions and attributed them to my writing.  I think this kind of behavior undermines the real work that needs to be done.  It is reprehensible.  This is all I will write concerning this poster.

I believe in ideas.  I do NOT believe in trying to disparage others through any means.  If someone has an idea, then we should discuss it.  We should not ridicule those who may not have all of the facts or see things in a different light than others.  Perhaps we should try and get more ideas out in the forum so those who are open minded can consider those ideas and perhaps change their own minds if they can see things in a different light than they did previously.  This is the way we can move forward.

I get the idea here that some out in the forums are self appointed "leaders" who think they are more more important than others.  Welcome to the Animal Farm where everyone is equal but some are more equal than others.  Well that, of course, doesn't wash with me.

I may be new here recently but I have followed this forum for a long time.  I have been a Party member and I have had my writing published in the Libertarian News.  I am an old friend of Libertarianism and it seems to me that there are some people here that, intentional or not, will certainly alienate newcomers who don't think or support exactly like some "participants" wish them to think.  I agree they will do more harm than good and it may be prudent for everyone to reconsider their intentions and actions here on this FSP forum.  It is wise to be vigilant against those who wish to stifle ideas, no matter what they are, because that is the true enemy of Liberty.

I have posted my vision of Liberty and my role in the FSP in the FSP General Forum under the "FSP as bus."
Perhaps I will cut and paste it here.  I'll be right back.  It reads as follows.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Man o man all of this arguing and name calling.  It can be downright depressing and confusing.  I am just one person and was a dues paying member of the Libertarian Party until I found all they did was badger me for more money almost weekly in my mail.  No different than any other charitable organization I concluded.  But this doesn't change my Libertarian Ideology.  It just eliminated annoying mailings.

This FSP, to me, means making a commitment to move to NH for the purpose of being more free than I am now in Connecticut.  It doesn't mean I have to band together with other people to move government in any one direction.  If that is your vision, then I applaud your zeal.  I don't disagree with the concept.  I just won't let it direct my course in life.  Wherever I move in NH, I will make a difference as only one person can in this life. I will vote my Libertarian principles regardless of where I live.  I just think my votes will be more effective in NH.  I am an independent businessman who runs a very successful business but I don't deal with the general public.  I have a niche and it works very well for me.  It frees me up to live anywhere I want.  I lived in the Upper Valley near Lebanon NH for over 10 years.  My kids are NH natives.  I am not.  But what does this matter anyway?  Except that when I move back to NH, I will be more familiar with the state than others who never lived there at all.  I will construct my own reality in liberty and not be constrained by having to find a job or commute to work.

This freedom is all very personal.  I will move where I want and when I want.  It doesn't matter to me who moves where and why.  I feel I will choose the best town for my situation and deal with it from there.  I want small and to be left alone.  If I want to join some organization, then I will do that when I am ready.

The real change comes in the ballot box.  Whomever said that the town meeting was the best place to get things done was correct.  As Tip O'Neil said, "All politics is local."  If I choose a small town like Springfield and run into like minded people, so be it.  If not, I will always vote my conscience without regard to "throwing away" my votes.

I currently sit on the Zoning Board of Appeals in a small Connecticut town.  I know that on the surface this would make most Libertarians sick because they are anti zoning.  But, since zoning isn't going away here anytime soon, where best to apply my Libertarian viewpoints through action.  I have a vote on a board that allows people to do what they wish to do with their own property.  What better way to be a Libertarian activist than to grant variances to those people restricted by the zoning board.  So until the zoning laws and board is abolished, I have a way to effectively undermine the zoning board here in town.    I am promoting the freedom of the property owner to do what he wishes to do with his own property by helping that property owner eliminate obstacles thrown at him by restrictive zoning laws.  Is this not effective Libertarian change with regard to the parameters within which I have to act?

I write this as an example of how we all make our own reality. It is futile to argue over who is a "leader" or more of an "activist" with a better vision of liberty than another.  If one makes a name for themself as a good representative for the shared ideas and ideals of another individual or group, then all well and good.  I don't require these things to carve out my vision of liberty into reality.  I am an individual and will do what I think is best for me based upon information made available to me.

I can't be a cheerleader for anyone or anything except individual liberty.  And if my reality happens to coincide with another's vision of liberty as they carve out their reality, then all well and good.  Two points for the home team.  Until then, I will continue to move along with my personal vision of liberty while seeking a life more free for myself and my family and if it happens to support another's idea of liberty, then progress is probably happening without us even knowing it.


So this is how I explain my role in this whole deal.  I hope it gives whomever reads it some insight into my beliefs of personal liberty and how I can contribute to the FSP in my own way.  Meanwhile, I will continue to contribute ideas where I think they are appropriate.  I thank you for your welcoming attitude.

Brien :)

Title: Re: Birth of a Safe Place for Newcomers and Civilized Conversationalists
Post by: jeanius on July 21, 2005, 01:32:07 pm
Let's make sure that we don't propagate mean spiritedness here.  Let's agree to disagree with our more argumentative liberty minded posters and keep our comments on a positive note.  I think we will get back what we put out.  Yes?  :)

I very much agree that how we work for liberty is a personal choice.  How we work towards it varies from person to person and from time to time.  I do what I can when I can.  I have had stretches of time where it is all I can do to vote.  Then there are stretches when I can do far more.  I may be involved with some of the more structured approachs in NH (NHLA, etc.).  And I may be involved in more personal ways.  Everyone has to do this the way that works best for them and the value of what we do isn't really for others to judge.  I don't work for liberty for public aclaim.  I don't work for liberty for the approval of my peers.  I work for liberty because I believe it is the right life for me and my family and I'm grateful there are others who feel the same.  :)

Jean
Title: Re: Birth of a Safe Place for Newcomers and Civilized Conversationalists
Post by: Russell Kanning on July 21, 2005, 01:59:50 pm
This guy isn't working for liberty. He isn't working for limited government. He likes regulation.
If I own a vehicle and hurt noone, then I should be left alone, not regulated.
Title: Re: Birth of a Safe Place for Newcomers and Civilized Conversationalists
Post by: Brien on July 21, 2005, 02:42:43 pm
This guy isn't working for liberty. He isn't working for limited government. He likes regulation.
If I own a vehicle and hurt noone, then I should be left alone, not regulated.

  You like to judge me but I will ignore that because I consider the source and you know nothing about me except what you have read so far.  You seem to always talk when you don't know what you are talking about.

If you own a vehicle that hires out for the public good, and you use the public roads, then you should be subject to regulation for public safety.  You have no right to go out on those roads, with your own idea of safety, and wind up killing innocent people.  We all pay for the roads and we as Americans are entitled to regulate those public roads for the safety of ALL people.  Your self centered myopic view of your role on the public roads is pure rhetoric.  It makes no sense at all.  How can you state that you will hurt no one?  Can I borrow your crystal ball?  I would like to buy a lottery ticket on the powerball.  I don't know of any truck driver that intentionally kills people with his truck.  But it happens.  And if you leave every individual to decide what is safe and what is not, then the incidence of fatalities out on the public roads will increase for sure.  This is not an issue of liberty but rather an issue of public safety.

You have no idea how to separate the issue of liberty from public safety.  It is no wonder you can't understand necessary regulation.  You write like an anarchist.  And if this is your idea of Libertarianism, I think you are very mistaken.  I could be mistaken, but I believe the Libertarian philosphy specifically states that if something in your idea of liberty can hurt another fellow American, then there needs to be some consideration for regulation.  So if you pretend to speak for Libertarianism, then I wonder who agrees with you?
Title: Re: Birth of a Safe Place for Newcomers and Civilized Conversationalists
Post by: Russell Kanning on July 21, 2005, 04:09:47 pm
It is no wonder you can't understand necessary regulation.
You write like an anarchist.
And if this is your idea of Libertarianism, I think you are very mistaken.  I could be mistaken, but I believe the Libertarian philosphy specifically states that if something in your idea of liberty can hurt another fellow American, then there needs to be some consideration for regulation.  So if you pretend to speak for Libertarianism, then I wonder who agrees with you?
There is no necessary regulation
I am an anarchist
I am not a Libertarian
...or try to speak for them
 :D
Title: Re: Birth of a Safe Place for Newcomers and Civilized Conversationalists
Post by: Russell Kanning on July 21, 2005, 04:12:31 pm
"You have no idea how to separate the issue of liberty from public safety."

I don't want to be "public safety"ed into no liberty.
Your vision of "freedom" .... is not :-\
Title: Re: Birth of a Safe Place for Newcomers and Civilized Conversationalists
Post by: unplugged on July 24, 2005, 10:20:32 am
Ok, is it just me, or does it seem like we get more productive discussions when we don't pick on or berate each other?  When we are respectful and accepting of other's opinions, even if they differ from our own, we have a better dialogue and an open road to understanding, even if we keep our opinions afterward.  When someone starts nitpicking and tearing apart another person's post, practically word for word, I don't see any positive outcome from it.  I am quite sure that these folks who post these rather negative messages are quite intelligent and have some interesting things to say; however, I am hard pressed to actually find these things buried in their 'attacks'.  If I want to witness continual attacks I'll go see War of the Worlds again.   ;D   Don't get me wrong, not every post has to be sweetness and light - I just think that disagreements can be presented in a civilized tone to get the sender's message across and to invite a response.  Besides, too much negativity makes your heart and head pound too much, like a bad hangover... ;)

Sandra

Title: Re: Birth of a Safe Place for Newcomers and Civilized Conversationalists
Post by: Brien on July 25, 2005, 09:23:13 am
It is no wonder you can't understand necessary regulation.
You write like an anarchist.
And if this is your idea of Libertarianism, I think you are very mistaken.  I could be mistaken, but I believe the Libertarian philosophy specifically states that if something in your idea of liberty can hurt another fellow American, then there needs to be some consideration for regulation.  So if you pretend to speak for Libertarianism, then I wonder who agrees with you?
There is no necessary regulation
I am an anarchist
I am not a Libertarian

...or try to speak for them
 :D


Mr Kanning:  If you are indeed an anarchist, then nothing I write will ever be respected by you.  I am only thankful you are in the minority of the far right political spectrum and can be identified as such.  It also prompts me to question your intentions here on the FSP forum.  I don't object to your presence, particularly since you are an admitted anarchist.    Those here, who are serious hard working people that respect our quest to regain the liberties that we have lost in our society over the last century, all will understand your political philosophy.  It is my opinion that you have no idea of the true consequences of anarchy.  There is an old saying:  "Be careful what you wish for because it may come to pass."  I thank my stars that you will never gain any political power or influence in our society.
Title: Re: Birth of a Safe Place for Newcomers and Civilized Conversationalists
Post by: Brien on July 25, 2005, 09:51:06 am
Hey Brien,

I'm sorry you had trouble elsewhere in the forum.  I read the thread you referred to.  You did touch on one of the hot buttons that can cause a reaction.  Many of our participants are on the anarchist end of the spectrum.  Many are on the "limited government" side.  The anarchist side doesn't have much (well, maybe not *any*) tolerance of even limited government.  They will fly up in arms immediately about any state restrictions/limitations, etc.  That's the exciting and challenging aspect of creating a free society.  I *really* liked what you said about privatizing.  I, personally, think that's the best end solution.  I don't know if you've read Stossel's book, "Give Me a Break:  How I Exposed Hucksters, Cheats, and Scam Artists and Became the Scourge of the Liberal Media ...".  In this book Stossel brings up Underwriter Laboratories (UL) as an example.  They've tested and approved electrical devices for ages .. and well too.  I've used Consumer Reports fairly regularly for purchases.  Anyway, I don't want to get too far off topic but my point is that some folks write before thinking and don't always read carefully.  And also folks are very passionate about their viewpoints.  I do expect that such conversations can be civilly conducted here is a way that allows us to explore different angles of topics.

Jean

Privatization is one of the cornerstones of Libertarianism.  I believe the Libertarian philosophy states that most government agencies could be replaced and reconstructed in the private sector.  I believe this is the positive direction of the Libertarian Party.  We must work to convince the skeptics that almost anything the government does in a "agency", the private sector can do better and on less of a budget.  John Stossel is a good friend of the Party and the philosophy.  He even pointed out that his own home on the beach in the Hamptons, NY, was destroyed by a coastal storm only to be rebuilt in the same area through mandatory "government" flood insurance, ie taxpayers money.  Private insurance companies will not touch coastal homes because they know eventually they will be destroyed at some point by mother nature.  Furthermore,private insurance companies know that if they insure such risky investments, when they do have to pay the claims, it increases the rate for all others insured by that company.  They have the right to refuse to issue the  insurance and that is why the government steps in to offer the flood insurance funded by OUR taxpayer's money.  What benefits do we as citizens and taxpayers derive from insuring multi million dollar homes along the ever changing ocean front?  NONE.  If the people who purchase expensive homes along waterfronts knew they would have to pay their own reconstruction costs after storms, then I doubt there would be as many "waterfront" homes as we have now.  Of course, large privately funded organizations could purchase waterfront property and spread the risk among all of the participants, but it would still be exempt from OUR tax dollars. It would also mean more "open spaces" for the general public to enjoy because the waterfront wouldn't be gobbled up by "keep out" signs.  Some of the "private" single home beaches would not exist and thus the waterfront would be more accessible for the general public to enjoy.                                      

 Mr Stossel is a sincere man who credibility goes a long way in my thought process.

He has given some of the best press for the Party for many years now.   Consumer Reports, The Insurance Institute for Automobile Safety,( I think that is their name), and the Underwriters Laboratory, are all fine examples of how the private sector can play vital roles in protecting consumers from dangerous products offered to the public.  They play an important role in "public safety" and do not take any money whatsoever from the government.  They prove that "privatization" works better than government in these areas.
Title: Re: Birth of a Safe Place for Newcomers and Civilized Conversationalists
Post by: SteveA on July 25, 2005, 11:10:18 am
Something to think about regarding the small government/anarchy/privatization comments:

Most private interactions operate within an anarchic framework - families, community organizations, churches, businesses have very little reliance on laws and enforcement.  There are many ways social behaviors are controlled without explicit laws and police to maintain relatively peaceful associations with others.

If you consider a business, for example, and look at the desire of most the individuals involved to maintain a productive and healthy or otherwise beneficial arrangement between themselves, there's little need for any real physical enforcement of anything except the ability to remove those disturbing this arrangement from being part of this association.  The same goes for families and voluntary private organizations.  I believe these arrangements are relatively naturally occuring, though you can't always guarantee forceful interactions won't occur, they are generally limited if the organization is based upon voluntary association and doesn't forcibly include people against their desires.

The main problems arise when you try to expand upon this to include a system of various possibly conflicting ideologies - too many cooks make a broth that few people feel satisfied with.  That's why many people append a description to the term "anarchy" to describe how they envision such a system.  Most people aren't supporting anarchochaos or anarchomilitarism etc. ;)  and I think the reason why terms like anarchocapitalism or anarchosocialism are used is that anarchy, I guess by definition, allows a diverse range of ideologies and so to avoid conflict, people are saying ahead of time, when they use these modifiers to the word anarchy, what sort of private interactions they prefer, if some form of anarchy were to exist.

The point I'm trying to make is that anarchy, within limits, as shown in many private institutions, works quite well.  There are few areas in day to day life where forceful interactions are needed, and given time, a society that grew up in such an environment would likely adapt to these circumstrances.  I do agree with libertarian and minimal government views that there are some forms of restraint that people should agree upon ahead of time and be willing to enforce (the #1 factor to me seems to be the need for people to agree to respect the independence and property of others ... or life, liberty and property as libertarians often put it).  Pure anarchists likely envision these arrangements arising inevitably so even these don't need to be explicitly agreed upon ahead of time - differences of opinion, that we aren't likely to see tested in reality for quite a while.  Of course oftentimes people mistake a minimal government or anarchy as not providing public services, but this isn't the case - these services are just not assumed to be forcibly selected for everyone by "The People" or aren't required to be forcibly supported via. taxes or mandatory community service etc.  The acknowledgement that everyone is ultimately individual and independent (if somone desires to be) seems to be the underlying rational for proponents of anarchy (basically a rejection of any, at least human, establishment being to some extent deified), and I think there's merit to that viewpoint.  I'd hazard a guess the primary complaint anarchists would have of a libertarian government would not be so much at the specific form of government (though I'm sure some anarchists might disagree) but at the underlying assumption that everyone is still assumed to be rightfully subject to the desires of society, however it happens to define rights to life, liberty and property at the time (I mean, take the recent Supreme court ruling where private property ends up being not so private anymore ... it seems inevitable that if noone ever were willing to violate a law or if all laws were 100% enforced (maybe mind control for people who attempted to violate a law ;D), we'd quickly find a tyrant making laws that noone would stand against, so the underlying view that social institutions were founded in anarchy and built up from there by generally voluntary interactions and that these institutions are still human and fallible seems, to me, an important view).

Something else to consider:  There's little concern that governments are going to disappear in the near future and sometimes you've got to aim a little higher than the target you're shooting for because gravity/a.k.a reality is going to pull things down some, so if people want to see smaller government, they've got to shoot for something even smaller.  Some people might worry that all the schools will be privatized or that Social Security will disappear ... there's little to fear, even having a President and Congress relatively supportive of these things not only doesn't make a dent, we're likely further away now than before (does anyone remember school vouchers or privatized social security? ... not that those ideas are necessarily ideals for the FSP but it doesn't appear that campaign promises of smaller government are going to be realized ... yet again).

I think once people see past the political titles and realize that in terms of what real results are likely to be seen, we're almost all on the same page, there's little concern except over which part of government to chip away at.

I hope my post fell with the definition of "civilized conversationalist" for the forum ;D.  (Not a bad idea actually for a forum).
Title: Re: Birth of a Safe Place for Newcomers and Civilized Conversationalists
Post by: Brien on July 25, 2005, 02:04:17 pm
SteveA

I think one must first define anarchy.  From the American Heritage Dictionary.

Anarchy:  An absence of any form of political authority.  Political disorder and confusion. Absence of any cohering principle, as a common standard or purpose.

Anarchism:  The theory that all forms of government are oppressive and undesirable, and should be abolished.  Active resistance and terrorism against the state, as used by some anarchists.  Rejection of all forms of coercive control and authority.

Now, how does this fit with families, churches, and business?

Modern families have to operate within a social/ political framework if they are to be productive members of an organized society.  There has to be a framework within which the family must operate in modern society.  Unfortunately, or fortunately, depending upon your viewpoint, not all people see their roles in society the same way.  Therefore there is a need for rules.  Then, if there is a need for rules, there is a need for enforcement of those rules.

You wrote: There are many ways social behaviors are controlled without explicit laws and police to maintain relatively peaceful associations with others.

This can be true in some instances.  But there are so many instances where it is not true because others do not interact peaceably in society.  Enter enforcement and police.  They are a necessary part of any modern society.  No police?  What happens when your grandmother is raped and robbed and even worse, murdered by some thug who has no respect for another human being?

Business has to operate within a political framework if they are to be productive in a modern economy. I will explain later.

Churches, business, and families have to operate under a coherent principle as a common standard or purpose.

Families exist as a social unit.  Businesses exist as an economic entity.  And churches exist as a common meeting place by those who freely choose to act in such a manner.  No rules or common understandings then nothing will be accomplished except chaos.

you wrote:If you consider a business, for example, and look at the desire of most the individuals involved to maintain a productive and healthy or otherwise beneficial arrangement between themselves, there's little need for any real physical enforcement of anything except the ability to remove those disturbing this arrangement from being part of this association.

What about U.S.Customs?  Do you promote just allowing anything imported into the United States without inspection with regard to the safety of all US citizens just because a US business and a Chinese business care to trade?  Or let's say a Arab business trading with ABC company of Podunk, Kansas?  This is a recipe for the destruction of our society.


you wrote:The point I'm trying to make is that anarchy, within limits, as shown in many private institutions, works quite well.  There are few areas in day to day life where forceful interactions are needed, and given time, a society that grew up in such an environment would likely adapt to these circumstrances.

"Anarchy within limits"?    This is an oxymoron.  It make no sense because by definition there are no limits in anarchy. 

There are many areas in modern American society where "forceful interactions" are required.  I think you are looking at modern day society through rose pink glasses.  Given the opportunity, historically speaking, large corporations have polluted our environment.  Remember love canal?  Kerr McGee killed Karen Silkwood and radiated other workers.  Common street hoods commit crimes everyday in American cities.  Given time, in your scenario, the "outlaws, anarchists, and the physically strong would rule society and the peaceful citizen would be a fossil.

You wrote:  I think once people see past the political titles and realize that in terms of what real results are likely to be seen, we're almost all on the same page, there's little concern except over which part of government to chip away at.

This may be true but modern American society is far to pre-occupied with countering terrorism, earning a decent living, raising and protecting their families, and "living day to day life" to be concerned about Utopian ideas of peaceful coexistence.  Unfortunately this is true for our political systems as well.  Politicians are concerned with only one thing:  keeping themselves in power.  So until the voters realize that politicians seek only to perpetuate their power by making and extending a myriad of laws to justify that end, then there will be no real change.  Change must come from within and at the micro political level.

This is what I think the FSP is about;  change of a form of government at the smallest level so that it can evolve into town change, then into state level change, and eventually, to the national level.  This is not anarchy, nor is there any room for such a chaotic form of society.  Anarchists seem to me, to be selfish, myopic and politically naive people, who given the opportunity would allow society as we know it, to break down into a nightmare scene of social war allowing those who wish to control others, do so through any means possible.  Who wants to sit at the door of their home with a 50mm machine gun to protect their family from villlans who wish to rob, rape, maime and kill others to satisfy personal aberrant illusions of their role in a society based upon anarchy.

Please keep in mind that I don't speak for anyone but myself.    :)
Title: Re: Birth of a Safe Place for Newcomers and Civilized Conversationalists
Post by: unplugged on July 28, 2005, 07:14:23 pm
I hope my post fell with the definition of "civilized conversationalist" for the forum ;D.  (Not a bad idea actually for a forum).

It is too bad that a forum has to be created for the purpose of being 'civilized'...kind of like having a 'free speech zone' - there should be no such thing.  It should be a given... :-\
Title: Re: Birth of a Safe Place for Newcomers and Civilized Conversationalists
Post by: Brien on July 29, 2005, 01:09:12 pm
Jean:  I see you're taking heat for attempting to have MATURE, INTELLIGENT, and MEANINGFUL discussions from individuals who probably neither understand "free speech" nor do they practice it.  I have seen so much rhetoric on some forums, I feel as though I have swallowed a bottle of ipecac.

I posted an intelligent answer to a post involving anarchy, and what did I see?  Absolutely nothing.  I take that to mean :

1)  The poster can't argue against my points.
2)  The poster isn't interested in real discussion
3)  The poster isn't serious about discussion of anarchy and how anarchists are archaic.

Futhermore, I notice a "poll" being taken with regard to your forum.  Perhaps this type of activity is attempting to turn the forum into a circus like atmosphere.  If this is true, then it only demonstrates the immature and silly intentions brought to this site by individuals who can't be creative enough to either participate of just go away.  If they wish to have a "joking forum" let them create one, but to attempt to sandbag this forum shines the light of free speech hypocricy right back upon themselves from the mirror of their own making.  Too bad, for them.

In 1776, the Loyalists hung Thomas Jefferson in effiigy.  And during the next eleven years, those same people ridculed everyone from Jefferson to John Hancock, Sam Huntington, to John Adams.   "Hang" in there Jean.  No pun intended. ;)
Title: Re: Birth of a Safe Place for Newcomers and Civilized Conversationalists
Post by: SteveA on July 29, 2005, 03:41:55 pm
Anybody here who cries censorship or whines about lack of freedom of speech on this forum has little to no experience with trying to make arguments with letters to the editor, talk radio (or TV) in media that are privately owned.  Like many anarchists, they usually destroy rather than build.  Anarchists are long on theory, ideals, and criticisms but they are woefully short on successful long-term experience. Examples of anarchism have ended disasterously.

You want anarchism. Do some research on mafioso-run Sicily.

Anarchism is a great dream -- for a community, nation and planet populated by one person.
Have two people and one of them becomes a leader.
Have three people and two are a tyrannical majority over the third.
Beyond that you get into monarchy, tyranny, aristocracy, oligarchy, democracy, anarchy -- in that viscious circle that Machiavelli described from his experience and knowledge of history.  The first, third, and fifth can be very good; the second, fourth, and sixth often are extremely bad.

Societies are a product of the people and their values.  If you have people that accept such institutions and don't oppose them, then yes, you'll find people subcomb to them but every group of people would be willing to accept such a situation passively without resisting it.  America has a tradition of opposing such things, whereas in some places people have resigned themselves to it and only oppose them when things get bad enough that they have little choice except to change things.
Title: Re: Birth of a Safe Place for Newcomers and Civilized Conversationalists
Post by: matt4f on July 31, 2005, 02:00:56 am
What is this smash the anarchist forum? 

 I would suggest the critically acclaimed book "Anarchy,State, and Utopia" to understand that  the one kind of anarchist society that could remain  without the force of government and with out the force of mob rule  would be anarchy through free association. This is the idea that you agree to a societies rule if you decide not to follow these rules you become an outcast and the people simply won't deal with you.If no one will deal with you then you will leave. These rules include property rights, respect for contract, and respect for self-ownership and the right to defend yourself and your property.Murray Rothbard one of the founders of the Libertarian Party fell into this group.
Title: Re: Birth of a Safe Place for Newcomers and Civilized Conversationalists
Post by: Russell Kanning on July 31, 2005, 01:48:22 pm
I thank my stars that you will never gain any political power or influence in our society.
I don't seek political power, but I would like to influence society. I must be doing it wrong....it isn't working on you.
Thanks for the replies....my volunteerist brothers :D
Title: Re: Birth of a Safe Place for Newcomers and Civilized Conversationalists
Post by: lloydbob1 on July 31, 2005, 08:04:14 pm

I am an anarchist
I am not a Libertarian

Not Exclusive ;)
Title: Re: Birth of a Safe Place for Newcomers and Civilized Conversationalists
Post by: Russell Kanning on August 01, 2005, 06:46:26 am

I am an anarchist
I am not a Libertarian

Not Exclusive ;)

the other guy thinks so ::)
Title: Re: Birth of a Safe Place for Newcomers and Civilized Conversationalists
Post by: Brien on August 01, 2005, 09:43:01 am
What is this smash the anarchist forum? 

 I would suggest the critically acclaimed book "Anarchy,State, and Utopia" to understand that  the one kind of anarchist society that could remain  without the force of government and with out the force of mob rule  would be anarchy through free association. This is the idea that you agree to a societies rule if you decide not to follow these rules you become an outcast and the people simply won't deal with you.If no one will deal with you then you will leave. These rules include property rights, respect for contract, and respect for self-ownership and the right to defend yourself and your property.Murray Rothbard one of the founders of the Libertarian Party fell into this group.

I don't think this is "smash the anarchism" forum at all.  All I pointed out is that anarchy is really not a viable solution in American modern political reality.  Anyone who believes otherwise is certainly entitled to their "dream" but I think that's all it is in our modern American Society.   I prefer to discuss and exchange viable solutions to the present day make up of American Society, not dreams.
Title: Re: Birth of a Safe Place for Newcomers and Civilized Conversationalists
Post by: Brien on August 01, 2005, 10:11:04 am
I thank my stars that you will never gain any political power or influence in our society.
I don't seek political power, but I would like to influence society. I must be doing it wrong....it isn't working on you.
Thanks for the replies....my volunteerist brothers :D

No Russell, it isn't working on me because you attacked me from the very beginning I posted on this forum.  Strange way to attempt to influence people.  Have you ever heard or read the following statements: 

"I think a compliment ought always to precede a complaint, where one is possible, because it softens resentment and insures for the complaint a courteous and gentle reception."

"Each man must for himself alone decide what is right and what is wrong, which course is patriotic and which isn't.  You cannot shirk this and be a man. To decide against your conviction is to be unqualified and excusable traitor, both to yourself and to your country, let men label you as they may.

and just one more:

"We can secure other people's approval if we do right and try hard; but our own is worth a hundred of it, and no way has been found of securing that."

I  assure you I am not the author of these quotations, but I will allow you the pleasure of the research who did write them. :)

Title: Re: Birth of a Safe Place for Newcomers and Civilized Conversationalists
Post by: Russell Kanning on August 01, 2005, 12:07:18 pm
I hadn't heard any of those. :)
Title: Re: Birth of a Safe Place for Newcomers and Civilized Conversationalists
Post by: Brien on August 01, 2005, 12:41:48 pm
I hadn't heard any of those. :)

They were all written by Mark Twain.  ;)
Title: Re: Birth of a Safe Place for Newcomers and Civilized Conversationalists
Post by: AmerTwnCrier on September 16, 2005, 10:36:54 pm
First let me say I'm still not sure if there are 3 pages that I should start on page 3 in order to see the beginning of a discussion.  In any case, anarchy is a subject I see was being discussed.  Hows this for a definition. (It's not mine...I read it in Terra Libra News).  Anarchy does not mean a land without rules...it is a land without rulers. Simple as that.  We have the first 10 amendments (Bill of Rights) as rules...but who needs George and his cronies to do anything but follow those rules and deal with foreigners?
Title: Re: Birth of a Safe Place for Newcomers and Civilized Conversationalists
Post by: ThomasPaine on September 17, 2005, 10:41:17 am
I hadn't heard any of those. :)

They were all written by Mark Twain.  ;)

From "The Lowest Animal" by Mark Twain

Man is the only animal that robs his helpless fellow of his country, takes possession of it and drives him out of it or destroys him. Man has done this in all the ages. There is not an acre of ground on the globe that is in possession of its rightful owner, or that has not been taken away from owner after owner, cycle after cycle, by force and bloodshed.

Man is the only Slave. And he is the only animal who enslaves. He has always been a slave in one form or another, and has always held other slaves in bondage under him in one way or another. In our day he is always some man's slave for wages, and does that man's work, and this slave has other slaves under him for minor wages, and they do his work. The higher animals are the only ones who do their own work and provide their own living.

Man is the only Patriot. He sets himself apart in his own country, under his own flag, and sneers at the other nations, and keeps multitudinous uniformed assassins on hand at heavy expense to grab slices of other people's countries, and to keep them from grabbing slices of his. And in the intervals between campaigns he washes the blood off his hands and works for "the universal brotherhood of man" with his mouth.

TeePee
Title: Re: Birth of a Safe Place for Newcomers and Civilized Conversationalists
Post by: Ward Griffiths on September 17, 2005, 03:42:45 pm
First let me say I'm still not sure if there are 3 pages that I should start on page 3 in order to see the beginning of a discussion.  In any case, anarchy is a subject I see was being discussed.  Hows this for a definition. (It's not mine...I read it in Terra Libra News).  Anarchy does not mean a land without rules...it is a land without rulers. Simple as that.  We have the first 10 amendments (Bill of Rights) as rules...but who needs George and his cronies to do anything but follow those rules and deal with foreigners?
The first 10 amendments to the US Constitution are not rules for citizens to follow.  They are commandments concerning things no government is allowed to do.

The only rule _I_ have to follow is the Zero Aggression Principle, and that's not really a rule but possibly the single natural law that applies to sentients.  It applies despite the State, though with governments around I seem to have to defend myself more often.
Title: Re: Birth of a Safe Place for Newcomers and Civilized Conversationalists
Post by: AmerTwnCrier on September 17, 2005, 07:39:17 pm
You're absolutely right of course, the first 10 amendments do apply to government not to the people.  But they mean nothing unless...insist they be followed.  My main purpose was to defend anarchy, knowing it has so many negative conotations to people. This reply from Joe aka Solitar is what got me to respond.

Anarchism is a great dream -- for a community, nation and planet populated by one person.
Have two people and one of them becomes a leader.
Have three people and two are a tyrannical majority over the third.
Beyond that you get into monarchy, tyranny, aristocracy, oligarchy, democracy, anarchy -- in that viscious circle that Machiavelli described from his experience and knowledge of history.  The first, third, and fifth can be very good; the second, fourth, and sixth often are extremely bad.

Interesting that he didn't even mention communism and thinks democracy is better than anarchy.  He must be a happy person now that socialism/democracy is rampant. Aren't we supposed to be a republic!! Either way, it's nice to be able to communicate with others who are interested in living free and not just waving a flag and feeling good.


Title: Re: Birth of a Safe Place for Newcomers and Civilized Conversationalists
Post by: ThomasPaine on September 17, 2005, 07:50:16 pm
The anarchist element within the Libertarian Party is the reason why they will never become a majority party.

Why would the FSP make the same mistake?

TeePee
Title: Re: Birth of a Safe Place for Newcomers and Civilized Conversationalists
Post by: Russell Kanning on September 18, 2005, 07:30:03 am
Let anarchy reign! ...... uh wait a minute ..... Let freedom ring from the rooftops!

how about you read planning books like Machiavelli's .... but leave me alone to choose for myself :D
Title: Re: Birth of a Safe Place for Newcomers and Civilized Conversationalists
Post by: Russell Kanning on September 18, 2005, 07:31:58 am
The anarchist element within the Libertarian Party is the reason why they will never become a majority party.

Why would the FSP make the same mistake?

because we are not a political party and we allow people to be communists or whatever .... just as long as they don't hurt or steal from other people :)
Title: Re: Birth of a Safe Place for Newcomers and Civilized Conversationalists
Post by: ThomasPaine on September 18, 2005, 08:44:07 am
The anarchist element within the Libertarian Party is the reason why they will never become a majority party.

Why would the FSP make the same mistake?

because we are not a political party and we allow people to be communists or whatever .... just as long as they don't hurt or steal from other people :)

Really? How many communists have signed up? I mean the type of communists who believe you don't have to go through the state ownership of the means of production phase after which the state just withers away?

But isn't the ultimate goal majority state political power? Presumably people are not moving to NH because of the weather!

And because there are not enough anarchists to build a majority party to take power - an paradoxical statement in itself - let alone classical liberals (which btw is the reason why the Libertarian Party will never achieve majority status) you have to deal with our winner-take-all within a geographical area system of voting that mathematically sorts our politics into two major parties - upfront.

How specifically do you think the FSP is conceived to address this issue?

TeePee
Title: Re: Birth of a Safe Place for Newcomers and Civilized Conversationalists
Post by: Russell Kanning on September 18, 2005, 09:14:55 am
Really? How many communists have signed up? I mean the type of communists who believe you don't have to go through the state ownership of the means of production phase after which the state just withers away?

But isn't the ultimate goal majority state political power? Presumably people are not moving to NH because of the weather!

And because there are not enough anarchists to build a majority party to take power - an paradoxical statement in itself - let alone classical liberals (which btw is the reason why the Libertarian Party will never achieve majority status) you have to deal with our winner-take-all within a geographical area system of voting that mathematically sorts our politics into two major parties - upfront.

How specifically do you think the FSP is conceived to address this issue?

I haven't signed up any commies .... I don't keep their company  :)

No ... the FSP doesn't have that as a goal ..... we want lots of liberty mindede people to move to NH to work for a freer society. :)      Some move for weather .... 1 family is from Fairbanks ;D

I personally am trying to get many radical liberty lovers to move to NH and throw off the chains of tyranny through non-violently resisting and refusing to cooperate. You can do that anywhere in the world, but here we encourage each other and are emboldened by larger numbers. :D

I don't think the FSP itself has an answer to that ?.
Title: Re: Birth of a Safe Place for Newcomers and Civilized Conversationalists
Post by: lloydbob1 on September 18, 2005, 10:12:00 am
The anarchist element within the Libertarian Party is the reason why they will never become a majority party.

Why would the FSP make the same mistake?

TeePee

Anarchist Element?

There is barely a libertarian element in the LP!

http://www.ncc-1776.com/tle2002/libe195-20021021-02.html
Title: Re: Birth of a Safe Place for Newcomers and Civilized Conversationalists
Post by: ThomasPaine on September 18, 2005, 11:20:50 am
Quote
I don't think the FSP itself has an answer to that ?.

Exactly my point!

Minarchists and anarchists are fundamentally opposed to one another as one believes in the justified use of limited state force while the other does not. The argument is irrelevant to 98% of the citizens because one has to get 50% plus 1 to achieve political power in our form of governance. Sorry to inform you but outside of anarchist circles most people vote to make a difference not to protest. So who exactly is going to support what form of political organization in NH when many of the people being recruited (anarchists) don't even believe in voting while at the same time most of the people needing to be convinced believe in more than just a limited role for state force?

Excuse me for having trouble seeing the logic. It seems to be based on the false impression that the problem with the Libertarian Party is people are too stupid to see the objective reality of anarchy rather than that reality is much more complex than simply adhering to the non-agression principle. Followers of both minarchism and anarchism mistakenly believe that dominion over a specific territory can be established without government and therefore without the initiation of force. However, there are no meaningful examples of this ever happening in both the civilized, as well as, "tribal" worlds.

Even in the plant and animal kingdoms, we see dominant species "crowding out" other species. Animals with the power to do so, particularly predatory animals, will attack others of their same species in order to monopolize turf or hunting grounds. Pack animals will attack trespassing animals from other packs, and it is common among pack animals for the strongest animal (the alpha male) to assert dominion by force over other animals. When game is killed, it is customary for the rest of the pack to step aside and let the dominant animal take the choicest meat for himself - a form of "tribute" that is not categorically different from the tribute extracted by aristocracy.

Nonetheless, because government follows force, it is shaped by those who already enjoy dominion through force. Rules are written to make the situation seem tolerable to the dominated while further entrenching the ability of dominators to enrich and entrench themselves. The answer, then, is not to remove government from domination, but to remove domination from government - that is, to make government more democratic.

Here, again, we are met with much confusion on the part of minarchists and anarchists between democracy and elections, sometimes expressed by the mildly defective expression, "majority rule," and sometimes by more bombastic pejoratives such as "mobacracy." These false substitutions of one idea for another are reinforced by bizarre aphorisms, such as, "Democracy is three wolves and a sheep voting on what's for dinner." Anyone with the most elementary knowledge of predatory ecology knows that the population of sheep always exceeds the population of wolves, and that undermining democracy serves the wolves of human society. Of course the wolves' ideal would be to abolish it altogether, leaving a de facto government of, by and for the wolves.

This is my last post on this topic as I don't want to hijack the thread!

TeePee
Title: Re: Birth of a Safe Place for Newcomers and Civilized Conversationalists
Post by: LfeLbrtyHppnss on October 19, 2005, 10:30:06 pm
Hello, I'm a college student in MA, and I figured the best way to introduce myself was on this comfortable thread.  So...people seem to be sharing their personal quest towards libertarianism, allow me to share mine.

I considered myself quite the conservative Republican just a short four and a half years ago. (And yes...IN MASS!)

I was a staunch supporter of the GOP and the conservative iniatives in Congress - most notably the Contract with America as drafted primarily by Newt Gingrich.  During the 2000 Election I was a Team Leader for the GOP.  I had always been raised to understand the Republican party to be the real party for the middle class.  Most importantly, I had always thought the Republican party's most endearing quality was it's desire to see government limited for the people's well being.

So you might be saying to yourself, "oh no, here comes the socialist turn about where he starts talking about how he's a big liberal now because of evil President Bush".  Hardly.  My right-leaning outlook on life persists but it has been tempered by the cold hard reality that government in all its forms and faces exists to exploit the people they "serve".  It is the nature of the beast, and for that reason it cannot be blamed directly.  But that doesn't mean I have to accept that. 

Socialism in all it forms serves only to disrupt the course of nature, and it places our weaknesses above our strengths.  I will always believe this, because I have faith in humanity.  All one must do is look to history.  History shows us that it is when human beings experience freedom (be it physical, intellectual, etc) they are able to overcome their weaknesses and evolve.  Socialism and most appropriately, Communism, tells us that the only way we as human beings can truly live in harmony and evolve is to mechanize.  We are to become the very Machine that Marx and Engels claimed they were seeking to destroy.  Liberty inevitably produces results.  Yet the current political climate in this country allows for anything but that.

Sure, there comes along a politician now and again who actually seems to have his head on his shoulders but let's face it, too many American's are entirely too apathetic to this disgraceful mockery of the Constitution.  Such is the reason why I admire and appreciate the efforts made on the part of the FSP to counter this civic degradation.  It's nice to know that regardless of the minor political differences we all must have due to our nature as free thinking beings, that there is a group who recognizes that our culture is suffering.  It is being pulled apart by two opposing forces, and our liberties are caught in the crossfire.

I support my President, always.  First and foremost it seems like it is our responsibility as citizens to stick through the hard times and maintain internal solidarity - especially during wartime.  We might have our difficulties with a President, as many of us most likely share for President Bush, but we must also realize that right now...the world is watching.  They will jump at any chance they get - as they already have - to seize the moment when they perceive our "empire" to be faltering, and they will use the hatred that already exists in many countries around the world to see us fail.

I do not perceive President Bush to be an evil man.  I think in his heart of hearts he believes that what he is doing is right, and on some levels he is.  Yet, his failure to take into consideration the impact his rejection of the international community would have on the war effort is perhaps his largest mistake - outside of the Patriot Act.  I mean, I'm certainly the last person you'd ever find glorifying the tragedy that is the United Nations, but Bush's utter lack of diplomatic skills is striking to me.

Worst of all, the Bush presidency has forced me to recognize that which I have already alluded to - the government in all its forms is not to be trusted.  Whether the White House is colored blue or red no longer seems to matter.  It is time for change.

Corey
Title: Re: Birth of a Safe Place for Newcomers and Civilized Conversationalists
Post by: AmericanPackMule on February 26, 2006, 10:59:13 am
I hope I'm not too late!

     The Terms: Civil & Liberal seem to be in conflict. When the two Blended make piece.

      The original Definition of:  Liberal = Free Love / Civil = Code of Right & Wrong.
What is Right for some can be Wrong for others. ( Respect the Rights of others.)

       We often find ourselves under the power of a bully as Government.

        Libertine's are obviously under attack, by Conservatives. " Therefore our Civil Defense of our Rights responds."


                  AmericanPackMule  (ZAN-TI-MOW)
Title: Re: Birth of a Safe Place for Newcomers and Civilized Conversationalists
Post by: Maarten on March 10, 2006, 09:16:05 am
Hi everyone! I'm from the Netherlands, by the way (kinda forgot to mention that).

When I graduate and get my Master's Degree in a little over two years I am planning on going to the US, because (at least when it was founded) this is the country I would belong to if I had been able to choose at birth :) I think the prospects of improving the amount of freedom in the US are much better than over here, because my country wasn't founded on any of these kinds of principles, and we don't have the advantage of a good Constitution.

I found the FSP website a couple of days ago, and so far it looks very promising. I didn't really have a clue to which state I would want to go when I decided I wanted to move to the US, and NH looks like a very good candidate from all angles. If I knew I could get into the US when I finish my studies I would join the FSP now, but I don't want to enter any obligations like that (even if they weren't legally enforcable, haven't really looked into that) if I don't even know if I can ever fulfill them.

I completely agree with the mission statement of the FSP. The goal you're trying to reach here is exactly the reason I decided to move to the US (in the future, that is), which is another huge plus this state, and this organisation gets. I am not a libertarian in the strict meaning of the word (from what I've gathered so far), but an Objectivist. Ayn Rand's books are what got me interested in this country in the first place, and they changed a lot of my personal viewpoints (for the better, I think :)).

I'm still doing a lot of research on these and related subjects, to better prepare myself. In certain ways 2 years is a long time, but I don't want to be caught with my proverbial pants down when I suddenly have to decide ;)
Title: Re: Birth of a Safe Place for Newcomers and Civilized Conversationalists
Post by: lasse on May 10, 2006, 01:17:13 pm
Good evening, ladies and gentlemen.

I'm an adolescent from Norway, who sees the FSP as his only way out of this socialist travesty of a nation.

I'm currently in school to become what the STCW classifies as an able seaman (http://www.stcw.org/training.html), and I intend to go back to school to grab a class 1 deck certificate once I get my certificate of apprenticeship. (i.e I'll be a sea captain) I'm still unsure if that'll convince the U.S they will need me.

For this reason, and the fact that the end of my education is 4+ years into the future, I haven't committed to the FSP yet. Perhaps the new immigration laws will make things easier for me? It seems Bush is pushing for them. I'm not too updated on them, though.
Title: Re: Birth of a Safe Place for Newcomers and Civilized Conversationalists
Post by: JasonPSorens on May 10, 2006, 01:20:55 pm
It is already reasonably easy for a skilled person from a Western European country to immigrate to the U.S. and gain citizenship. I doubt that the laws will be relaxed much in the near future, however. Coming over on a student visa is an easy way to get here for an extended period of time; then you may be able to stay longer if you show that you have certain skills. I recommend doing some research on the laws.
Title: Re: Birth of a Safe Place for Newcomers and Civilized Conversationalists
Post by: John C on May 10, 2006, 08:27:21 pm
Good evening, ladies and gentlemen.

I'm an adolescent from Norway, who sees the FSP as his only way out of this socialist travesty of a nation.

I'm currently in school to become what the STCW classifies as an able seaman (http://www.stcw.org/training.html), and I intend to go back to school to grab a class 1 deck certificate once I get my certificate of apprenticeship. (i.e I'll be a sea captain) I'm still unsure if that'll convince the U.S they will need me.

For this reason, and the fact that the end of my education is 4+ years into the future, I haven't committed to the FSP yet. Perhaps the new immigration laws will make things easier for me? It seems Bush is pushing for them. I'm not too updated on them, though.

Just walk in via Mexico, everyone else does. ::)
Title: Re: Birth of a Safe Place for Newcomers and Civilized Conversationalists
Post by: KBCraig on May 11, 2006, 01:01:55 am
Welcome, Maarten and lasse!

Don't let your timeline deter you from signing the Statement of Intent (https://secure.freestateproject.org/join.jsp?q=join).

I hesitated for several months, and then decided that I was committed to move to NH as soon as I possibly can, whether the FSP reaches 20,000 or not. Right now, I'm at least two years from moving; possibly three years. And yet, I've signed as an FSP member, and First 1,000 too.

When you know in your heart that you're not going to be satisfied until you move to NH and do everything you and your fellow activists can do to make NH the most free state, leading the way to a more free nation and more free world, then go ahead and sign. Even if you know you can't make the move for at least 10 years, sign up anyway!

When you know deep in your heart that you have to move, you're exactly the kind of person we need.

Kevin
Title: Re: Birth of a Safe Place for Newcomers and Civilized Conversationalists
Post by: John C on May 11, 2006, 07:04:00 am
Welcome, Maarten and lasse!

Don't let your timeline deter you from signing the Statement of Intent (https://secure.freestateproject.org/join.jsp?q=join).

I hesitated for several months, and then decided that I was committed to move to NH as soon as I possibly can, whether the FSP reaches 20,000 or not. Right now, I'm at least two years from moving; possibly three years. And yet, I've signed as an FSP member, and First 1,000 too.

When you know in your heart that you're not going to be satisfied until you move to NH and do everything you and your fellow activists can do to make NH the most free state, leading the way to a more free nation and more free world, then go ahead and sign. Even if you know you can't make the move for at least 10 years, sign up anyway!

When you know deep in your heart that you have to move, you're exactly the kind of person we need.

Kevin

Am I to assume you are waiting for others to do all the path clearing and then after you determine the waters to be safe, you'll move? If the FSP doesn't work, you would have lost nothing, but if it is a success then you were the first 1000 signed up, right? Win win huh? 
My town is getting over run buy Massachusetts liberals ( theres a joke in words) that get involved to change NH to what they ran away from. How does someone out of state help change NH government to a libertarian way of thinking? How can you help my town, or any town, living miles away from NH ?  My opinion is if you want to see a change, then be a part of it now.
Title: Re: Birth of a Safe Place for Newcomers and Civilized Conversationalists
Post by: Dreepa on May 11, 2006, 07:09:08 am

Am I to assume you are waiting for others to do all the path clearing and then after you determine the waters to be safe, you'll move? If the FSP doesn't work, you would have lost nothing, but if it is a success then you were the first 1000 signed up, right? Win win huh? 
My town is getting over run buy Massachusetts liberals ( theres a joke in words) that get involved to change NH to what they ran away from. How does someone out of state help change NH government to a libertarian way of thinking? How can you help my town, or any town, living miles away from NH ?  My opinion is if you want to see a change, then be a part of it now.
Kevin can defend himself but....
Kevin's letter was read by his future NH Senator on the floor of the debate on HB1177 (Smoking Ban).  Kevin is NOT waiting for others to clear his path.  Kevin has a work related issue that is keeping him in TX longer.  Kevin follows what is going on in NH more than some people in NH.

/soapbox
Title: Re: Birth of a Safe Place for Newcomers and Civilized Conversationalists
Post by: John C on May 11, 2006, 09:26:54 am

Am I to assume you are waiting for others to do all the path clearing and then after you determine the waters to be safe, you'll move? If the FSP doesn't work, you would have lost nothing, but if it is a success then you were the first 1000 signed up, right? Win win huh? 
My town is getting over run buy Massachusetts liberals ( theres a joke in words) that get involved to change NH to what they ran away from. How does someone out of state help change NH government to a libertarian way of thinking? How can you help my town, or any town, living miles away from NH ?  My opinion is if you want to see a change, then be a part of it now.
Kevin can defend himself but....
Kevin's letter was read by his future NH Senator on the floor of the debate on HB1177 (Smoking Ban).  Kevin is NOT waiting for others to clear his path.  Kevin has a work related issue that is keeping him in TX longer.  Kevin follows what is going on in NH more than some people in NH.

/soapbox

Then that's great. No disrespect intended. We need people to get involved.
I just here a lot of talk from people about "some day". The time is now! Not 10 years from now, when the movement fizzles out because everyone was waiting ten years.
Title: Re: Birth of a Safe Place for Newcomers and Civilized Conversationalists
Post by: Denis Goddard on May 11, 2006, 04:32:36 pm
Then that's great. No disrespect intended. We need people to get involved.
I just here a lot of talk from people about "some day". The time is now! Not 10 years from now, when the movement fizzles out because everyone was waiting ten years.
I hear ya and I agree, JohnC. I've heard our affliction called "Early Mover's Disease", and like yourself, it's caused me to exchange harsh words with people who really have helped a lot that I should not have been putting down.

I say, nothing succeeeds like success, and the best advertising is simply having a better product.
New Hampshire is that better product.

I like to remind people that they can go to PorcFest (http://freestateproject.org/festival) and "try before they buy".
Come get surrounded with hundreds of other people who share your pro-Freedom views, and are actually scoring victories; you'll be making moving plans before the end of the second day!

Now, everyone who'se not here, get off yer asses and get over here ASAP!
:D
Title: Re: Birth of a Safe Place for Newcomers and Civilized Conversationalists
Post by: KBCraig on May 15, 2006, 10:17:52 am
Am I to assume you are waiting for others to do all the path clearing and then after you determine the waters to be safe, you'll move?

Dreepa responded quite well while I was away for the weekend. Thanks!

No, I'm not waiting for someone to clear the path. When I advise moving as soon as you can, I know that many people, like myself, just simply can't move right now. I'll be there in two-three years by my current schedule, or tomorrow if I hit the lottery. That's life.

One of the really funny arguments I've actually seen is that people should not move until we hit 20k, and the early movers shouldn't talk so much about NH. Huh?  ??? Isn't NH the goal and destination?

Kevin
Title: Re: Birth of a Safe Place for Newcomers and Civilized Conversationalists
Post by: Philly Dave on January 31, 2007, 05:12:05 pm
Hi All,

Phoenix AZ here.

I have been following the FSP with interest for some time and have lurked around your site some as well.

New Hampshire has long been a favorite of mine (I used to take yearly trips to hike and ski Mt. Washington when I was younger). At one point last year I even started looking at house prices and possible job oppurtunities in NH.

For personal reasons I am not ready to comitt, but have been looking for a good excuse to take a closer look. I am happy to say that I just signed up for the Liberty Forum next month and got my airfare and hotel all booked.

SO I just wanted to say Hi.

Dave
Title: Re: Birth of a Safe Place for Newcomers and Civilized Conversationalists
Post by: Denis Goddard on January 31, 2007, 07:53:08 pm
For personal reasons I am not ready to comitt, but have been looking for a good excuse to take a closer look. I am happy to say that I just signed up for the Liberty Forum next month and got my airfare and hotel all booked.
Awesome! See you there! :)
Title: Re: Birth of a Safe Place for Newcomers and Civilized Conversationalists
Post by: FreeBoB on January 31, 2007, 08:12:20 pm
Welcome Dave.  I can't wait for the Liberty Forum.  So many friends, so many liberty activists! 

A wicked good party!   8)

See you there.

Brian
Title: Re: Birth of a Safe Place for Newcomers and Civilized Conversationalists
Post by: Philly Dave on February 01, 2007, 08:56:29 am
Thanks guys ... Now I just have to find some warm clothes  :o
Title: Re: Birth of a Safe Place for Newcomers and Civilized Conversationalists
Post by: MuckThatGuy on October 22, 2007, 12:00:47 am
Hi everyone!

My name is Sean, and I just heard about this project today at a Ron Paul meetup. I've read the main site's basic POV, and direction...  I find the idea intriguing, and I'll be doing a lot of reading as the week goes on.

I'll probably be most interested in seeking out information for all of the universities in NH that offer graduate programs in Mathematics. I'm on the tail end of a Math degree in Wisconsin, and would love to partake in the project if I were to be accepted by a school in NH.  ;D

Anyway, this seems to be a decently moderated forum, with a lot of good people.  I'm looking forward to getting to know the lot of you.   :)
Title: Re: Birth of a Safe Place for Newcomers and Civilized Conversationalists
Post by: yoplait on October 22, 2007, 12:36:47 am
Welcome!  Post any questions you have.  There are quite a few good colleges in NH.

As you do your research, I think you'll see that joining a growing group of liberty activists in America's freest state is any Ron Paul supports dream  :)
Title: Re: Birth of a Safe Place for Newcomers and Civilized Conversationalists
Post by: buzzard on November 22, 2007, 03:00:04 pm
I thought this was the line to get a hug  ;D
Title: Re: Birth of a Safe Place for Newcomers and Civilized Conversationalists
Post by: Porcupine Realtor on November 24, 2007, 07:56:07 pm
Philly Dave et al, we look forward to seeing you at Liberty Forum in January and Porc Fest in June.  Excellent events, both.
I moved here 2 months ago from Las Vegas, NV, so am facing the same sort of culture and climate shock you are envisioning.  Feel free to PM me with any specific questions you might have about life here (I'm in Manchester).  Although the weather is much colder than you and I are used to, the political "climate" is fantastice!  Much sunnier than NV or AZ, guaranteed.
Title: Re: Birth of a Safe Place for Newcomers and Civilized Conversationalists
Post by: 008klm on February 07, 2008, 08:33:28 pm
An Outsider's Viewpoint

The Free State Project's website


The Founding Fathers knew that the republic they designed for us would be difficult to preserve, but they assumed that the citizenry would remain virtuous and alert.

Those assumptions don't hold at the dawning of the 21st century. Ignorance has never been worse — millions of citizens do not understand the founding documents, the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution, the Bill of Rights. Too much hedonism has undermined the civic virtue of many, and too much political corruption has caused disillusionment and lack of interest on the part of many others. As a nation, we are no longer virtuous or alert.

The main objective of the Free State Project's website is to provide citizens with a means to acquire the knowledge and skills they need to be active participants in local politics and government, participants in the governing of New Hampshire and the nation, and in rebuilding civilization.

Thus, the Free State Project's website specializes in training on the political process - electoral as well as policy.

Our American Republic cannot be restored unless civilization as we know it is restored. To save civilization, individuals must commit themselves to living a godly life, privately and publicly. They must put their family first, and in some manner join with other like-minded people pursuing the same goals.

But they still have to interact with institutions, public or private. These institutions may be hostile, or they may be indifferent. In either case, people who are busy supporting and raising families and building community generally have better success in their interactions with impersonal institutions if they have acquired some technical expertise.

Giving citizens that expertise is what the Free State Project's website is all about.

Please tell me I'm not nuts.
Title: Re: Birth of a Safe Place for Newcomers and Civilized Conversationalists
Post by: J’raxis 270145 on February 07, 2008, 09:26:26 pm
Describing the problem as “hedonism” and the solution as “godly” is a good way to turn a lot of people off to the project. If the FSP had been presented to me in this way I’d’ve assumed it was something exclusively for Christian fundamentalists (they have their own free state project (http://christianexodus.org/) elsewhere) and never would’ve joined.
Title: Re: Birth of a Safe Place for Newcomers and Civilized Conversationalists
Post by: TEBON on February 07, 2008, 09:43:58 pm
Describing the problem as “hedonism” and the solution as “godly” is a good way to turn a lot of people off to the project. If the FSP had been presented to me in this way I’d’ve assumed it was something exclusively for Christian fundamentalists (they have their own free state project (http://christianexodus.org/) elsewhere) and never would’ve joined.

see if they want to trade their libertarians for our holy rollers. 
Title: Re: Birth of a Safe Place for Newcomers and Civilized Conversationalists
Post by: Keyser Soce on February 08, 2008, 04:18:35 am
Godly has been tried for thousands of years. Hasn't worked yet. I suppose if you ask 100 people what FSP is all about you'll get that many different answers. Here's mine.

There are two kinds of people in this world. Those that want to be left alone, and those that just won't leave us the f**k alone. I'm moving to NH because I'm the first kind and I'm trying desperately to get away from the second kind.
Title: Re: Birth of a Safe Place for Newcomers and Civilized Conversationalists
Post by: 008klm on February 09, 2008, 11:03:13 pm
No Christian FSPs?
Title: Re: Birth of a Safe Place for Newcomers and Civilized Conversationalists
Post by: sj on February 09, 2008, 11:40:50 pm
No Christian FSPs?

There are plenty of Christian FSPers.  My wife and I are two of them.  I know we have at least one Mormon, we've got evangelicals (such as my wife and I) and everything else in between.  I find the negative comments about religion to be unnecessary and perplexing, but I've long since stopped making comments about it.  It's been said a million times but it's still true: you can't get a true idea of what FSPers are like from the forums.

Christianity's teachings and the ideas of liberty go hand in hand and compliment one another.
Title: Re: Birth of a Safe Place for Newcomers and Civilized Conversationalists
Post by: TEBON on February 10, 2008, 12:15:57 am
I guess I should have said that by "holy roller" I meant those that call me a satan worshiper, the ones that tell me I'm going to hell because I believe in freedom.

overall, I like christians, I used to be one in name only. . . I find most of them to be polite and kind.  Same with Mormons, never met a mormon that I didn't like as a person.  It's unfortunate that I have friends that will fight (correctly in my opinion) for the rights of homosexuals.  > .  but they think mormons are disgusting creatures with mental deficiencies. . .and should be removed from the planet.

sad.
Title: Re: Birth of a Safe Place for Newcomers and Civilized Conversationalists
Post by: J’raxis 270145 on February 10, 2008, 08:45:01 pm
No Christian FSPs?

There certainly are. But the FSP is not exclusively Christian, and that synopsis you posted earlier implied that it was, or at least exclusively for believers in some sort of deity.
Title: Re: Birth of a Safe Place for Newcomers and Civilized Conversationalists
Post by: J’raxis 270145 on February 10, 2008, 08:51:09 pm
overall, I like christians, I used to be one in name only. . . I find most of them to be polite and kind.  Same with Mormons, never met a mormon that I didn't like as a person.  It's unfortunate that I have friends that will fight (correctly in my opinion) for the rights of homosexuals.  > .  but they think mormons are disgusting creatures with mental deficiencies. . .and should be removed from the planet.

And there are religious types that think homosexuals are disgusting creatures with mental deficiencies. Bigots everywhere. I’ve known plenty of atheists who think that because science is factually correct and backed up by evidence it means the viewpoint can be forced upon others, e.g., people involved in the Darwinism vs. Creationism debates. (And that’s why I say just get rid of the damned public schools—then no one has to worry about the Other Side educating their children wrong.)
Title: Re: Birth of a Safe Place for Newcomers and Civilized Conversationalists
Post by: maxxoccupancy on February 10, 2008, 10:20:06 pm
I don't think that intolerance has anything to do with faith.  I think that this is another stereotype being pushed by the media, Hollywood, etc.  I think that politicians are deliberately pandering to this prejudice, and I think that this is something that needs to be pointed out.
Title: Re: Birth of a Safe Place for Newcomers and Civilized Conversationalists
Post by: J’raxis 270145 on February 11, 2008, 07:12:39 pm
I don't think that intolerance has anything to do with faith.  I think that this is another stereotype being pushed by the media, Hollywood, etc.  I think that politicians are deliberately pandering to this prejudice, and I think that this is something that needs to be pointed out.

Far too many religions have intolerance written directly into their holy texts for that argument to make any sense.
Title: Re: Birth of a Safe Place for Newcomers and Civilized Conversationalists
Post by: 008klm on February 11, 2008, 09:43:39 pm
So homosexuals are fine, but not Christians?  ???
Title: Re: Birth of a Safe Place for Newcomers and Civilized Conversationalists
Post by: J’raxis 270145 on February 11, 2008, 09:53:37 pm
So homosexuals are fine, but not Christians?  ???

That’s the second time you concluded that from posts which said nothing of the sort. Where are you getting this from?
Title: Re: Birth of a Safe Place for Newcomers and Civilized Conversationalists
Post by: Keyser Soce on February 11, 2008, 09:57:44 pm
So homosexuals are fine, but not Christians?  ???

Everyone is fine as long as they aren't trying to shove their agenda down my throat. That goes for both the gay agenda and the christian agenda. People have every right to be gay or christian and apparently the two are not mutually exclusive. They can do what they want in their house and for that matter in public (I have no right not to be offended and neither do you). The line is when anyone uses force to promote their views or asks the government to do it for them.

 I said force and left out fraud since some would say that promoting any religion is fraud. This is clearly the wrong thread to go further into the subject. Suffice it to say that I doubt you would find anyone looking to violate your right to freedom of religion and most of us would fight for it with you, even the non-believers. Would you do the same for us?
Title: Re: Birth of a Safe Place for Newcomers and Civilized Conversationalists
Post by: J’raxis 270145 on February 12, 2008, 12:29:15 am
So homosexuals are fine, but not Christians?  ???

Everyone is fine as long as they aren't trying to shove their agenda down my throat. That goes for both the gay agenda and the christian agenda. People have every right to be gay or christian and apparently the two are not mutually exclusive. They can do what they want in their house and for that matter in public (I have no right not to be offended and neither do you). The line is when anyone uses force to promote their views or asks the government to do it for them.

Exactly. I myself am an atheist but have no issue with religious people—unless they try to force it on me or others, or use their religious values (beyond values resembling the NAP/ZAP) to negatively judge myself, others, or other value systems.


[The post I made which I think started all this confusion—taking to task the person describing the FSP as “godly” and modern society’s problem as “hedonism”—is not only a gross misrepresentation of what the FSP is, but is the sort of judgmental behavior from religious believers that I will always speak up against.]
Title: Re: Birth of a Safe Place for Newcomers and Civilized Conversationalists
Post by: 008klm on February 12, 2008, 01:58:23 pm
Gotta say it.  Acceptance of homosexual behaviour is inappropriate in both the new and old testaments of the Holy Bible.  Christianity and homosexuality are mutually exclusive.  The practice of homosexuality is an abomination before God.  Christians are to love the sinner but hate the sin.   God may be testing the homosexual, but Christians are to counsel him (her) 3 times and then must leave/avoid him (her) if they remain unrepentent in their sin.   Part of freedom is freedom of association.   If someone wishes not to associate with someone else, that is as important a freedom as freedom of religion, since being forced (by the state) to associate with someone who is unrepentent is the same as the establishment of a state religion and the barring of their freedom of religion.  Informal (self-imposed) sanctions prevent me from displaying heterosexual tendencies in public, and I would prefer those people of other persuasions practice the same. 
Title: Re: Birth of a Safe Place for Newcomers and Civilized Conversationalists
Post by: Keyser Soce on February 12, 2008, 07:09:29 pm
Gotta say it.  Acceptance of homosexual behaviour is inappropriate in both the new and old testaments of the Holy Bible.  Christianity and homosexuality are mutually exclusive.  The practice of homosexuality is an abomination before God.  Christians are to love the sinner but hate the sin.   God may be testing the homosexual, but Christians are to counsel him (her) 3 times and then must leave/avoid him (her) if they remain unrepentent in their sin.   Part of freedom is freedom of association.   If someone wishes not to associate with someone else, that is as important a freedom as freedom of religion, since being forced (by the state) to associate with someone who is unrepentent is the same as the establishment of a state religion and the barring of their freedom of religion.  Informal (self-imposed) sanctions prevent me from displaying heterosexual tendencies in public, and I would prefer those people of other persuasions practice the same. 

If you'd like to post this in a different thread, I'll be glad to respond.
Title: Re: Birth of a Safe Place for Newcomers and Civilized Conversationalists
Post by: J’raxis 270145 on February 12, 2008, 08:09:09 pm
Gotta say it.  Acceptance of homosexual behaviour is inappropriate in both the new and old testaments of the Holy Bible.  Christianity and homosexuality are mutually exclusive.

For Christians who adhere to the Bible 100%, this is undoubtedly true. However, non-fundamentalist Christians seem to like to pick and choose which tenets they agree with, treating such things as the prohibitions on homosexuality as archaic social custom or somesuch—similar to the prohibitions on wearing clothing made of two kinds of material.

All in all, it doesn’t really matter to me anymore. As long as people aren’t forcing such beliefs on nonbelievers, I really don’t care what someone believes.
Title: Re: Birth of a Safe Place for Newcomers and Civilized Conversationalists
Post by: Russell Kanning on February 12, 2008, 08:09:48 pm
The main objective of the Free State Project's website is to provide citizens with a means to acquire the knowledge and skills they need to be active participants in local politics and government, participants in the governing of New Hampshire and the nation, and in rebuilding civilization.
might not be true .... since some of us are not citizens or have any plans to participate in government.
Title: Re: Birth of a Safe Place for Newcomers and Civilized Conversationalists
Post by: Keyser Soce on February 13, 2008, 11:57:50 am
The main objective of the Free State Project's website is to provide citizens with a means to acquire the knowledge and skills they need to be active participants in local politics and government, participants in the governing of New Hampshire and the nation, and in rebuilding civilization.
might not be true .... since some of us are not citizens or have any plans to participate in government.

There's always that.  8)
Title: Re: Birth of a Safe Place for Newcomers and Civilized Conversationalists
Post by: 008klm on February 14, 2008, 01:23:10 pm
I am learning much.  Thank you all for your indulging me and not flaming me over my views.  Great bunch all!
Title: Re: Birth of a Safe Place for Newcomers and Civilized Conversationalists
Post by: J’raxis 270145 on February 15, 2008, 06:01:00 am
I am learning much.  Thank you all for your indulging me and not flaming me over my views.  Great bunch all!

Indeed. Russell is a Christian Anarchist and one of the many anti-political activists here. I guess you could say he’s freed himself by simply opting out of government. Myself, I’m an anarchist, but I think working within the system is a good way to get us there. Subvert, transform, and dismantle from within—the state socialists successfully did it a century ago, why can’t we? ;D

And the FSP SoI is written broadly enough to encompass both anarchists and minarchists, in that it speaks of the maximal role of government without requiring members to believe in any minimum role.
Title: Re: Birth of a Safe Place for Newcomers and Civilized Conversationalists
Post by: USgulfVET on April 17, 2008, 09:28:40 am
First I would like to say Hello as I am new here.
Second, I was attracted to this thread to get my feet wet before the verbal joust of the masses.

I have already learned 2 things from my first day here.

1st, just like little children in the school yard, bullies will follow you anywhere.
2nd, Russell Kanning is an A$$hole.

It's been a very educational day for me and would like to thank Jean & Brien


Hi Jean:  Well I just received my first insult from a few "uniformed" regulars. 

Theses two "member" were not only uniformed on the issue but seemed bent upon ridicule as well.  I have thick skin and my response is laden with facts, not speculation.  It always amazes me how some "members" want to dismantle everything in sight but have no reasonable replacements.

Members such as these will only force prospective members to turn away with disdain.  These people are doing more harm than good for the movement.  It is a shame.
I don't have a uniform.....sometimes I am uninformed ;D
I am not a member ..... but a participant ;)
I don't have thick skin like yours...... but I don't run to Jean for protection. :P
I think you want to control others.....and I oppose you :)
Title: Re: Birth of a Safe Place for Newcomers and Civilized Conversationalists
Post by: J’raxis 270145 on April 17, 2008, 12:02:25 pm
2nd, Russell Kanning is an A$$hole.

Hi Jean:  Well I just received my first insult from a few "uniformed" regulars.

Theses two "member" were not only uniformed on the issue but seemed bent upon ridicule as well. I have thick skin and my response is laden with facts, not speculation. It always amazes me how some "members" want to dismantle everything in sight but have no reasonable replacements.

Members such as these will only force prospective members to turn away with disdain. These people are doing more harm than good for the movement. It is a shame.
I don't have a uniform.....sometimes I am uninformed ;D
I am not a member ..... but a participant ;)
I don't have thick skin like yours...... but I don't run to Jean for protection. :P
I think you want to control others.....and I oppose you :)

It just takes a while to get used to Russell’s style of communication.
Title: Re: Birth of a Safe Place for Newcomers and Civilized Conversationalists
Post by: Russell Kanning on May 07, 2008, 07:08:25 pm
1st, just like little children in the school yard, bullies will follow you anywhere.
2nd, Russell Kanning is an A$$hole.
Lucky we have this place for civilized conversation.
Title: Re: Birth of a Safe Place for Newcomers and Civilized Conversationalists
Post by: J’raxis 270145 on May 07, 2008, 11:48:41 pm
1st, just like little children in the school yard, bullies will follow you anywhere.
2nd, Russell Kanning is an A$$hole.
Lucky we have this place for civilized conversation.

I think those dollar signs were his attempt at “civilized.” :)
Title: Re: Birth of a Safe Place for Newcomers and Civilized Conversationalists
Post by: NHArticleTen on May 08, 2008, 08:09:27 am
First I would like to say Hello as I am new here.
Second, I was attracted to this thread to get my feet wet before the verbal joust of the masses.

I have already learned 2 things from my first day here.

1st, just like little children in the school yard, bullies will follow you anywhere.
2nd, Russell Kanning is an A$$hole.

It's been a very educational day for me and would like to thank Jean & Brien


Hi Jean:  Well I just received my first insult from a few "uniformed" regulars.Â

Theses two "member" were not only uniformed on the issue but seemed bent upon ridicule as well.  I have thick skin and my response is laden with facts, not speculation.  It always amazes me how some "members" want to dismantle everything in sight but have no reasonable replacements.

Members such as these will only force prospective members to turn away with disdain.  These people are doing more harm than good for the movement.  It is a shame.
I don't have a uniform.....sometimes I am uninformed ;D
I am not a member ..... but a participant ;)
I don't have thick skin like yours...... but I don't run to Jean for protection. :P
I think you want to control others.....and I oppose you :)

Russell, and many inhabitants of the planet, are not A$$holes at all.

We are students and advocates of the Philosophically Mature "Guide of Human Interaction" commonly known at the Non-Aggression Principle.
Check it out and join us if you love Freedom and Liberty.

We recognize that each and every human being has Basic Inherent Inalienable Irrevocable Human Rights.
The most common and easily identifiable of these are the right to life, the right to liberty, and the right to property.
In other words you violate basic human rights by murdering, enslaving, and stealing.
We also refer and identify these violators as "looters, bureaucrats, jackboots, and mercenaries."

Mostly we find that those "upset" by being identified as a "looter, bureaucrat, jackboot, or mercenary" are in a "defensive" posture.
They mostly want to try to find some "justification" for looting(stealing from others-aka taxes), bureaucrating(receiving stolen loot and booty from others in the course of "performing" some supposed function that "only" the gooberment can do-aka legalized theft and "bureaucrat job security"), jackbooting(harassing, robbing, abusing, kidnapping, raping, torturing, mutilating, imprisoning, murdering, and etc. other human beings as part of being a combination of looter/bureaucrat/mercenary), and mercenarying(most commonly known as "hired guns" or "hired enforcers" or "hired murderers" these men and women attempt to find comfort in the erroneous "belief" that they are on a "mission of mercy" on the behalf of someone else, though most often they are just paid enforcers and murderers backed by the military/industrial complex of their "employers").

A few of us don't identify with those activities, nor do we promote, support, and/or participate in them.

We interact with each other peacefully as "Peace Persons" using totally voluntary, full disclosure contracts.  You probably use one of those every day and don't even realize it.  When you say "Hi" to someone else you are offering a totally voluntary, full disclosure contract.

The "Hi" is a verbal contract offered to another person or persons.  This contract is a combination of "greeting" and also, more subtly, an acknowledgment to them that you mean them no harm(especially if said while in direct eye contact and even more so while smiling).

From there contracts get more complicated as the interaction between "contractors" increases and becomes a little more "complicated".

We understand that it's sometimes hard for people to ween themselves off of the tit, especially after many years of participating in the loot and booty of the looters, bureaucrats, jackboots, and mercenaries.  Most people not only continue to perpetuate these crimes, but they also raise future generations of looters, bureaucrats, jackboots, and mercenaries.  They even bestow upon their prodigy something called "the national debt" where the parents "borrow" and expect their children and grand-children and great grand-children to "repay" what they "borrowed".  Of course having someone else repay your debts is slavery...you've enslaved your children and your neighbor's children.  Why would you want to do that?

Well, "everyone else is doing it" isn't a valid "excuse" for your enslavement of others for your benefit or for someone else's benefit either.  It's purely and simply a crime perpetrated against Basic Human Rights.  Those who approve of/participate in/encourage others to violate any other human being's Basic Human Rights should be repelled and destroyed.

So by now a few "get it" but most are just furious at being "found out" at being "laid bare" at having the bright sunlight shone upon their dirty deeds done dirt cheap.

So the concepts you object to are:
Philosophical Maturity(who wants to be "mature" or "philosophical")
Non-Aggression Principle(who wants to leave everyone else alone, after all, you deserve something someone else owned/created/possessed...just go take it)
Basic Inherent Inalienable Irrevocable Human Rights(and you object to this how, and for what reason, and say that you'd like "yours" to be violated!?!)
Everyone Leaves Everyone Else Alone(what part of this don't you understand, can't you live with, do you really want others to rape/kidnap/torture/murder you!?!)

Why would you do these horrific and terrifying things to OTHERS when you don't want them done to YOU?

Would a city/region/state/nation/continent full of only looters exist(for any real length of time)?
Would a city/region/state/nation/continent full of bureaucrats exist(for any real length of time)?
Would a city/region/state/nation/continent full of jackboots exist(for any real length of time)?
Would a city/region/state/nation/continent full of mercenaries exist(for any real length of time)?

Obviously not because all of these DEPEND on human beings who actually PRODUCE something...so that they have something to steal...

Looters exist because you didn't repel and destroy them...
Bureaucrats exist because they used the looters that you didn't repel and destroy as justification for their very existence...
Jackboots exist because you have looters and bureaucrats and jackboots that loot/rape/rob/kidnap/torture/imprison/murder...oops, forgot to repel and destroy again...
Mercenaries exist because looters and bureaucrats and jackboots enjoy living off of others and they take some of their loot and booty and they hire mercenaries to enforce and maintain their military/industrial complexes all across the globe...

How do we counteract all this?

Well, it starts with us.

You and me.

Us.


Go figure...

Enjoy!





How many copies of Ron Paul's new book "The Revolution, A Manifesto" are you purchasing to distribute amongst your family, friends, and associates?


Title: Re: Birth of a Safe Place for Newcomers and Civilized Conversationalists
Post by: Menno on May 19, 2008, 10:31:42 am
2nd, Russell Kanning is an A$$hole.

Hi Jean:  Well I just received my first insult from a few "uniformed" regulars.

Theses two "member" were not only uniformed on the issue but seemed bent upon ridicule as well. I have thick skin and my response is laden with facts, not speculation. It always amazes me how some "members" want to dismantle everything in sight but have no reasonable replacements.

Members such as these will only force prospective members to turn away with disdain. These people are doing more harm than good for the movement. It is a shame.
I don't have a uniform.....sometimes I am uninformed ;D
I am not a member ..... but a participant ;)
I don't have thick skin like yours...... but I don't run to Jean for protection. :P
I think you want to control others.....and I oppose you :)

It just takes a while to get used to Russell’s style of communication.

How long does it take? :D
Title: Re: Birth of a Safe Place for Newcomers and Civilized Conversationalists
Post by: J’raxis 270145 on May 20, 2008, 11:36:00 am
2nd, Russell Kanning is an A$$hole.

Hi Jean:  Well I just received my first insult from a few "uniformed" regulars.

Theses two "member" were not only uniformed on the issue but seemed bent upon ridicule as well. I have thick skin and my response is laden with facts, not speculation. It always amazes me how some "members" want to dismantle everything in sight but have no reasonable replacements.

Members such as these will only force prospective members to turn away with disdain. These people are doing more harm than good for the movement. It is a shame.
I don't have a uniform.....sometimes I am uninformed ;D
I am not a member ..... but a participant ;)
I don't have thick skin like yours...... but I don't run to Jean for protection. :P
I think you want to control others.....and I oppose you :)

It just takes a while to get used to Russell’s style of communication.

How long does it take? :D

I’ll let you know. ;D
Title: Re: Birth of a Safe Place for Newcomers and Civilized Conversationalists
Post by: JC on June 09, 2008, 10:14:08 am
A 3 year long thread like this one makes me remember what I read in Hans-Herman Hoppe's Book "Democracy, the God that failed"

Conditions of "anarchy" or of "The Free Market" is what he calls a "private property society".

Not inevitably but certainly apparently, the FSP consists of people who aren't necessarily amenable to others.

They would seem to thrive and survive best on their own property without anyone including the state (or maybe not even a spouse) telling them what to do.

And on one's own property and with a mind to not infringe on other's rights, one is free to be an "a$$hole" and if one doesn't like it he can leave.

Contrast that to this very PUBLIC forum which is very different from a private property society that is sought. 

Public property and even public forums experience many types of "tragedy of the commons".

Bums stink up public squares, Pollution clouds a public river and calumny and strife manifest themselves on a public online forum and there is no one person who comes and ejects unpleasantness from the area.

I'm not saying that it SHOULD be done.

All I am saying is that the existence of this forum (depending on how it may be run) may in some ways be diametrically opposed to the private property society that Liberty minded people seek and represent.

A blog that each individual 'homesteads' and cultivates.....deleting unwanted comments and using whatever language that he or she deems fit, is more suiting to our ideal.

This is why I am glad for the FSP blogs.  I may create an account. 
Title: Re: Birth of a Safe Place for Newcomers and Civilized Conversationalists
Post by: Russell Kanning on June 09, 2008, 01:02:24 pm
Not inevitably but certainly apparently, the FSP consists of people who aren't necessarily amenable to others.
True in many cases ... but not many others.
Quote
Contrast that to this very PUBLIC forum which is very different from a private property society that is sought. 
Some of us don't even have that goal.
Quote
All I am saying is that the existence of this forum (depending on how it may be run) may in some ways be diametrically opposed to the private property society that Liberty minded people seek and represent.
If you don't like the way this forum is run ... you don't have to remain here.
Quote
... is more suiting to our ideal.
my ideal might be different than yours ... the FSP might be a bigger tent than you thought.
Have fun blogging

I kinda like threads with long lives. :)
Title: Re: Birth of a Safe Place for Newcomers and Civilized Conversationalists
Post by: NHArticleTen on June 19, 2008, 01:35:51 pm
I kinda like threads with long lives. :)

ditto
Title: Re: Birth of a Safe Place for Newcomers and Civilized Conversationalists
Post by: NHArticleTen on July 02, 2008, 06:15:23 pm
real long
Title: Re: Birth of a Safe Place for Newcomers and Civilized Conversationalists
Post by: yearningforfreedom on July 25, 2009, 11:22:01 am
I hope this will bring some new blood, if somewhat used, to the thread.

Being an old flatulation, I've always said that I want to live the last bit of my life as a Free Man.

I hope the FSP is where I can do that. Seeing the end as much closer than the beginning, I've pretty much lost any concern I have for those that would stifle my freedom, in anything they might say or do.

In short, I've run out of give a damn. I want to be free at any cost, regardless of how brief it may be.

I've held the rope that burns at both ends for so long, I can see both fires about to consume me.

Title: Re: Birth of a Safe Place for Newcomers and Civilized Conversationalists
Post by: Keyser Soce on July 25, 2009, 11:29:31 am
I hope this will bring some new blood, if somewhat used, to the thread.

Being an old flatulation, I've always said that I want to live the last bit of my life as a Free Man.

I hope the FSP is where I can do that. Seeing the end as much closer than the beginning, I've pretty much lost any concern I have for those that would stifle my freedom, in anything they might say or do.

In short, I've run out of give a damn. I want to be free at any cost, regardless of how brief it may be.

I've held the rope that burns at both ends for so long, I can see both fires about to consume me.



How soon should we be expecting you?  :)
Title: Re: Birth of a Safe Place for Newcomers and Civilized Conversationalists
Post by: yearningforfreedom on July 25, 2009, 11:54:49 am
I hope this will bring some new blood, if somewhat used, to the thread.

Being an old flatulation, I've always said that I want to live the last bit of my life as a Free Man.

I hope the FSP is where I can do that. Seeing the end as much closer than the beginning, I've pretty much lost any concern I have for those that would stifle my freedom, in anything they might say or do.

In short, I've run out of give a damn. I want to be free at any cost, regardless of how brief it may be.

I've held the rope that burns at both ends for so long, I can see both fires about to consume me.



How soon should we be expecting you?  :)

Well, here's the deal:

My son is 18 and has been accepted into the University of Waterloo in the computer engineering program. I moved here so he would not be drafted into some mindless war. I was in a mindless war and I will not see him be cannon  fodder for the Great one or any other one.

So our plan, my wife and I, is to wait until he has graduated and no longer needs our support.

But in the meantime, I am planning to visit. At the moment, I don't have my American passport, so I anticipate a hassle at the border without it. I did recently discover that I can get it fairly easily at the American Embassy in Ottawa.

BTW, I've been to New Hamshire a few times and love the place.
Title: Re: Birth of a Safe Place for Newcomers and Civilized Conversationalists
Post by: TEBON on July 25, 2009, 04:03:29 pm
if you ever come out to visit, hit up this forum maybe a porcupine will take you out to dinner!
Title: Re: Birth of a Safe Place for Newcomers and Civilized Conversationalists
Post by: yearningforfreedom on July 26, 2009, 08:09:12 am
Thanks Anton.  :)

Title: Re: Birth of a Safe Place for Newcomers and Civilized Conversationalists
Post by: M162 on January 17, 2010, 11:22:11 am
HI,

    This is my first post. I wonder if anybody can give me a sense of how is the job market (medical field) in New Hampshire. I am thinking about the need for Medical Assistants or Dental Hygienists. Also how is the cost of living in various parts of NH?
Title: Re: Birth of a Safe Place for Newcomers and Civilized Conversationalists
Post by: Dreepa on January 17, 2010, 11:49:59 am
HI,

    This is my first post. I wonder if anybody can give me a sense of how is the job market (medical field) in New Hampshire. I am thinking about the need for Medical Assistants or Dental Hygienists. Also how is the cost of living in various parts of NH?

Welcome!

I know that there is a need.  (I will direct a few people to this thread in that field.  Also if you are on facebook join the group FSP job alerts (and post  your need)


Cost of living will depend depending on where you are moving from.

Much cheaper than CA.  More expensive than parts of the midwest and south. 

Tell us about some prices of things you are interested in and we can help out.
Title: Re: Birth of a Safe Place for Newcomers and Civilized Conversationalists
Post by: Russell Kanning on January 17, 2010, 04:31:07 pm
I would you think you could find work in the medical field anywhere in NH and live happily ever after.

i recommend looking at the Dartmouth medical center if you like big hospitals in small towns
Title: Re: Birth of a Safe Place for Newcomers and Civilized Conversationalists
Post by: viperpilot on June 18, 2010, 08:02:32 am
New here from Holland Thought I would join Came here through Stanhope's site

Greetings
Title: Re: Birth of a Safe Place for Newcomers and Civilized Conversationalists
Post by: JasonPSorens on June 18, 2010, 09:33:13 am
Welcome viper - we get a lot of people through Doug; we should give him a trophy or something.  ;D
Title: Re: Birth of a Safe Place for Newcomers and Civilized Conversationalists
Post by: Pat K on June 19, 2010, 12:09:06 am
Welcome viper - we get a lot of people through Doug; we should give him a trophy or something.  ;D

I do believe he would like a Keg of Beer Much more .
Title: Re: Birth of a Safe Place for Newcomers and Civilized Conversationalists
Post by: Dreepa on June 19, 2010, 11:02:58 am
Welcome viper - we get a lot of people through Doug; we should give him a trophy or something.  ;D

I do believe he would like a Keg of Beer Much more .

pat and we should share it with him.
Title: Re: Birth of a Safe Place for Newcomers and Civilized Conversationalists
Post by: Pat K on June 20, 2010, 12:43:31 am
Welcome viper - we get a lot of people through Doug; we should give him a trophy or something.  ;D

I do believe he would like a Keg of Beer Much more .

pat and we should share it with him.

Yes, Yes we should ,it is the only hospitable thing to do.
Title: Re: Birth of a Safe Place for Newcomers and Civilized Conversationalists
Post by: carlybee on July 27, 2010, 10:50:45 pm
Hi :)   I just started a new LibertyLibertarian based message forum.  Would love to have someone involved with FSP come and post some info in our forums.  If you are interested please let me know and I will send the url.  We are trying to educate people and promote the ideals of liberty and I have set up a forum for sustainable living too.

Thanks!
Title: Re: Birth of a Safe Place for Newcomers and Civilized Conversationalists
Post by: fernanb8521 on November 22, 2010, 07:42:25 am
Free from crime, oppression, clean environment, work and a community working to improve the lives everyone residing within is a dream come true and anyone wont hesitate to start a new beginning here. Living  a life the christian way.
Title: Re: Birth of a Safe Place for Newcomers and Civilized Conversationalists
Post by: rossby on November 23, 2010, 05:58:28 pm
Free from crime, oppression, clean environment, work and a community working to improve the lives everyone residing within is a dream come true and anyone wont hesitate to start a new beginning here. Living  a life the christian way.

How many fingers do you have?
Title: Re: Birth of a Safe Place for Newcomers and Civilized Conversationalists
Post by: Jeff LaGrange on March 19, 2011, 12:17:49 pm
Free from crime, oppression, clean environment, work and a community working to improve the lives everyone residing within is a dream come true and anyone wont hesitate to start a new beginning here. Living  a life the christian way.

How many fingers do you have?

I'd like to laugh harder but I'm not sure what the punchline is B.D.
Title: Re: Birth of a Safe Place for Newcomers and Civilized Conversationalists
Post by: Will Brader on March 02, 2013, 03:56:15 pm
Hello there, and new to this entirely...

I heard snippets of some fellow being interviewed on the radio... it was one of those distant stations, late at night, with the wavering signal... possibly the best way, in a sort of romantic sense, to hear of the Free State Project. :-)

I had brought up the site and been very busy since, so haven't looked around much yet, but am about to commence!

Thanks for making this forum available.

Will
Title: Re: Birth of a Safe Place for Newcomers and Civilized Conversationalists
Post by: sunoco85 on August 11, 2013, 10:13:40 pm
As most of you know, FSP's key goal is to recruit.  We want to find people interested in liberty, have them meet us, learn about the FSP and perhaps, if we're lucky, participate in our endeavor.  Not everyone has a good reaction to our forum.  It can be a difficult place, on occasion, to share ideas, ask questions, etc.  Some people have been scared off with the more "free for all with some limitations" rule for the forum as a whole.  So, we have created this area where new people can safely enter and be welcomed and not have to do "battle" right off the bat.  :)  We may even draw in a few "old" participants who are uncomfortable with our "old" forum.  Let's see if we can show visitors our best behavior, eh?  ;)

Jean

testing.... 1st post..... testing
Title: Re: Birth of a Safe Place for Newcomers and Civilized Conversationalists
Post by: sunoco85 on August 11, 2013, 10:14:59 pm
As most of you know, FSP's key goal is to recruit.  We want to find people interested in liberty, have them meet us, learn about the FSP and perhaps, if we're lucky, participate in our endeavor.  Not everyone has a good reaction to our forum.  It can be a difficult place, on occasion, to share ideas, ask questions, etc.  Some people have been scared off with the more "free for all with some limitations" rule for the forum as a whole.  So, we have created this area where new people can safely enter and be welcomed and not have to do "battle" right off the bat.  :)  We may even draw in a few "old" participants who are uncomfortable with our "old" forum.  Let's see if we can show visitors our best behavior, eh?  ;)

Jean

testing.... 1st post..... testing
testing again.... peace
Title: Re: Birth of a Safe Place for Newcomers and Civilized Conversationalists
Post by: sunoco85 on August 11, 2013, 10:17:49 pm
learning buttons please excuse......... testing.
Title: Re: Birth of a Safe Place for Newcomers and Civilized Conversationalists
Post by: sunoco85 on August 11, 2013, 10:22:16 pm
learning buttons please excuse......... testing.

test again.... learning....... I'm nor totally unfamiliar with forums...... testing.
Title: Re: Birth of a Safe Place for Newcomers and Civilized Conversationalists
Post by: sunoco85 on August 11, 2013, 10:26:13 pm
"Notify" button? Gonna try it..........
Title: Re: Birth of a Safe Place for Newcomers and Civilized Conversationalists
Post by: sunoco85 on August 11, 2013, 10:27:35 pm
pressed "OK" see what happens......
Title: Re: Birth of a Safe Place for Newcomers and Civilized Conversationalists
Post by: sunoco85 on August 11, 2013, 10:32:10 pm
Hello all,
    I could use a newbie link from a Mod.  ;D I believe I can contribute.
Title: Re: Birth of a Safe Place for Newcomers and Civilized Conversationalists
Post by: sunoco85 on August 11, 2013, 10:38:03 pm
Anyone online? How active is this forum?
Title: Re: Birth of a Safe Place for Newcomers and Civilized Conversationalists
Post by: Jerry on August 11, 2013, 11:33:02 pm
Hello all,
    I could use a newbie link from a Mod.  ;D I believe I can contribute.
 

Posting guidelines for newcomers:
http://forum.freestateproject.org/index.php?board=2;action=display;threadid=3263

It appears that you think this is a chat room.  It is not.   This is a Forum.
Title: Re: Birth of a Safe Place for Newcomers and Civilized Conversationalists
Post by: sunoco85 on August 11, 2013, 11:52:15 pm
I will check it out. Thanks Mod. I have got a couple ideas that may help and vise-versa. Peace
Title: Re: Birth of a Safe Place for Newcomers and Civilized Conversationalists
Post by: sunoco85 on August 12, 2013, 12:13:07 am
Thanks again Jerry,
    I read the newbie link. I'm respectful of others and I feel already a kinship of philosophy with the FSP. I live and work here in NH. I look forward to sharing ideas. plans and activities with like-minded people. I'll look through the site for gatherings or social event plans. You people seem considerate, educated and motivated. I wish to share and contribute. Thanks for the welcome.
Title: Re: Birth of a Safe Place for Newcomers and Civilized Conversationalists
Post by: Jerry on August 12, 2013, 01:24:23 am

You might want to check out the website http://freestateproject.org where things are a little better organized.
Title: Re: Birth of a Safe Place for Newcomers and Civilized Conversationalists
Post by: Bridgette Estrada on September 16, 2014, 08:19:58 am
Good Morning,

This country is going in the wrong direction fast and FSP seems the only organization interested in actually doing something about it.  I am currently living in Virginia and after having served my country for seven years in the Marine Corps I was hoping to come back to the land of the free but that is not the case.  The American government has turned into an Orwellian monstrosity and it is only going to get worse, I am looking forward to moving to New Hampshire and honeslty just winging it. I'm a disabled veteran and I'm currently enrolled Ina Master's degree program.  I have no idea what I will do once I get to New Hampshire, where I will live,but I am looking forward to having my freedoms back.

Thank you,
Bridgette C. Estrada
Title: Re: Birth of a Safe Place for Newcomers and Civilized Conversationalists
Post by: coldponder on February 18, 2016, 06:13:26 pm
My ex partner an I are selling our hand built Acworth farm. It's a great place.
<br>
This 42 acre family farm has almost all you need to start farming. <br>
<br>
The main house is hand built of hewn logs and constructed in the piece en piece style. The materials are native, including the field stone for&nbsp; the foundation, 1st floor and central chimney. The walls are log and the wood for cabinets and trim milled on site. The roof is slate and has a herringbone design running through. The barn is from the mid 1800’s and was salvaged and reassembled on a stone foundation in 1990. It has a two bay garage, a woodshop and other workshops and tool storage. Hay loft above with antique hay forks for loose hay and a vegetable washing/garden shed built off the back with soapstone sink. Other outbuildings include: 1)a 23x24 animal barn with both open bays and closed stalls, 2) an art studio with a sales room and large bedroom above, 3) 3 bay equipment shed with attached (equipped) blacksmiths shop on one end and three season sleeping space on the other, 4) rustic, 12x16 finished wood heated, log cabin, 5) a completely equipped maple sugarhouse down by the brook. There a pounded deep water well with plenty of pure, clear water. The buildings are all wood heated. Electricity from the grid.<br>
<br>
The surrounding acreage is in the permaculture style having all the garden space and orchards near the house. The rich sandy loam soil has been improved for 33 years and grows beautiful fruits and vegetables and grass. There is a 60 tree heritage apple/pear/peach orchard, approximately 80 blueberry bushes and various rows of raspberries, currants, black raspberries and gooseberries. The herb garden is surrounded by circles of strawberries. There is approximately 5 acres of pastureland upon which horses, cattle, sheep, hogs and poultry have been raised. The woodlots are comprised of mixed hard and softwoods that has been&nbsp; sustainably managed for the last 33 years and some protected stands.&nbsp; The&nbsp; brook, with old mill site, runs past the gardens and orchard and down around the sugarhouse. There is a small man made, spring fed pond for swimming and irrigation . The neighbors arent too far away, but you can&apos;t see them and from the front porch the sun and moon rise over the forested hills. This is a beautifull and special place where you can live a green and sustainable lifestyle and grow healthy food for family and/or market.<br>
<br>
See fotos and other details at .

http://m.landandfarm.com/property/organic_permaculture_farm-2612851/
Title: Re: Birth of a Safe Place for Newcomers and Civilized Conversationalists
Post by: Celestelline on March 03, 2016, 10:58:58 am
Hi Coldponder,
  Your property is beautiful. Why are you giving that all up, if you don't mind me asking? It looks like you put so much love and effort into having a well rounded self sustaining habitat.

Sincerely, Celestelline
Title: Re: Birth of a Safe Place for Newcomers and Civilized Conversationalists
Post by: REI on June 03, 2016, 12:46:43 pm
I will be in New Hampshire next week starting June 8 2016.  I am attending a conference in Connecticut and have never been to New Hampshire and want to spend a few days just driving around it.

I am a retired electronic designer and programmer and small company owner and have always been attracted by the Free State idea.  I am a Life Member of the LP and have been a county chair and candidate several times in Missouri.  I now live in Texas.

I might buy a place in New Hampshire.  I wonder if anyone on this forum would be interested in having a meal with me or otherwise spend an hour or so.
Title: Re: Birth of a Safe Place for Newcomers and Civilized Conversationalists
Post by: KDus on June 03, 2016, 09:36:45 pm
I suspect you'll get lots of responses if you post this in other places.
There is a thread for movers and interested folks.

When I visited, NH, there were friendly FSP members in every city.
Title: Re: Birth of a Safe Place for Newcomers and Civilized Conversationalists
Post by: Russell Kanning on June 11, 2017, 08:52:58 pm
there are events all the time, so if you show up at one you can meet a bunch of people
Title: Re: Birth of a Safe Place for Newcomers and Civilized Conversationalists
Post by: Voyages on November 22, 2017, 10:39:57 pm
Hello to all of you!

There is an old say that nothing happens by accident. So finding information about the Free Estate Project appears to be
very interesting.
Apparently there is a general concern about the way people inter communicating in this plafond. If bad comments are made by non member of the community then there is nothing to be worry about.

I can't provide suggestion because I am not educated enough about the "Residents-Behavior Rules Act" ;D ;D

With love,

Ms. V.