Free State Project Forum

FSP -- General Discussion => Prospective Participants => Topic started by: gh05t on March 16, 2005, 09:58:32 pm

Title: Just joined the forums...
Post by: gh05t on March 16, 2005, 09:58:32 pm
Hey everybody - my name's Joe and I just joined the forums.  I did some looking around and saw some other introduction topics, so I decided to do the same.  Here goes:

I'm 25 years old, and I'm a Corporal in the Marine Corps.  I've been to Iraq and back, if anyone wants to talk to me about that conflict and the others we as a nation are involved in please feel free.  I believe you'll find that my views are not what you'd imagine them to be - I've kept an open mind, and I hope that others will as well.  After all, I am a libertarian as well as a Marine - so please don't write me off as a brainwashed jarhead.

My primary job is microcircuit, cable, and aviation instrumentation repair; and I'm also qualified in fiber optics.  My secondary job in the USMC is environmental compliance.  In other words, it's my job to make sure that the marines take care of the environment (how's that for dichotomy?), and I love both of my jobs.  Both me and my girlfriend are libertarians, although we're both pretty new to the fold.  We'd like to move to New Hampshire eventually, but of course...The Marine Corps doesn't allow a person to just pick up and move to another state.

I guess I have a few questions...basically, considering my qualifications, does anyone know about the jobs market in NH?  I went to both of the websites listed and got nothing, really.  I have friends in Kittery, Maine - and I just visited up there last October.  But to be honest, that was the first time I'd ever been that far north and I must confess I don't know much about the area.  From what I saw though, I really would love to live there.

Anyway - I'm glad I found the site.  I hope I can make some good friends here, and I hope we can all achieve this goal we're working for.

Title: Re: Just joined the forums...
Post by: kater on March 16, 2005, 10:48:46 pm
Welcome!  Wish I had an immediate answer on the jobs question, but I have a feeling that some of my more informed colleagues will be able to lend some advice.  I don't know which two sites you saw, but you might want to try monster.com (http://www.monster.com/), dice.com (http://dice.com/), nhjobs.com (http://nhjobs.com), and some university sites (Dartmouth (http://www.dartmouth.edu/~hrs/employment/jobflyer/), UNH (https://www.unhjobs.com/applicants/jsp/shared/frameset/Frameset.jsp?time=1111031218780), etc.)
Title: Re: Just joined the forums...
Post by: FTL_Ian on March 16, 2005, 11:05:58 pm
Welcome ghost,

    Hope you make it back in one piece and they don't stop loss you!  Have you joined the FSP yet?

Regards,
Ian
Title: Re: Just joined the forums...
Post by: 5thconcerto on March 16, 2005, 11:10:58 pm
Welcome Corporal gh05t.
The job market in the seacoast towards Nashua and up to Manchester is pretty good right now. You might ask your friend to send you copies of the Union Leader, Foster's Daily Democrat,  and Portsmouth Herald to get a picture of the job market.
Title: Re: Just joined the forums...
Post by: Gabo on March 17, 2005, 01:18:54 am
Questions for gh05t:


Were you libertarian when you joined the Marine Corps?
If so, I find it strange that a libertarian would join the Marines.

Did anything you were told to do upset you?
Did you ever say "no" when asked to do something?

How bad is it really out there?
What is the average opinion of the troops?




Sorry for the bombardment of questions, but I guess I'm just a curious teen.   ;D

Thanks for responding if you can, and welcome to the FSP!
Title: Re: Just joined the forums...
Post by: Printer on March 17, 2005, 08:21:05 am
Questions for gh05t:


Were you libertarian when you joined the Marine Corps?
If so, I find it strange that a libertarian would join the Marines.





Be cautious with stereotypes!  I was a libertarian when I joined the army.  At that time (many years ago!), I believed that I was furthering the principles of liberty around the world, and while I did not really care for the discipline, I felt it was a worthy sacrfifice to make for something I believed in.  (This was back in the days when the Soviet Union still existed.)  Unfortunately, time has shown that I should have been more concerned about the preservation of liberty in this country!  (As someone wrote a year or so ago when the Iragis were struggling to begin the process of writing a constitution: Let's just give them ours--we're not using it!)

In any event, welcome to the forum.  With your skills, I doubt that you will have any difficulty finding a job when you are ready.

Title: Re: Just joined the forums...
Post by: Rocketman on March 17, 2005, 09:09:18 am
gho5t,

I'd say we need all the non-brainwashed jarheads we can get ;D

Welcome to the forums, and I hope you'll join the FSP if you haven't already.  I'm sure many of us would love to hear your thoughts on the current war effort... I expect you'll find there's very little consensus among FSP members on foreign policy issues.

My bumper stickers say "I Support the Troops, not the Policy" and "Real Patriots Oppose Empire."  What do you think?
Title: Re: Just joined the forums...
Post by: FTL_Ian on March 17, 2005, 09:12:32 am
I believed that I was furthering the principles of liberty around the world, and while I did not really care for the discipline, I felt it was a worthy sacrfifice to make for something I believed in.

They had you fooled, huh?  Recruits don't realize they only further the goals of old men in Washington...

What sort of brainwashing techniques do they use to get you to believe you're "defending freedom", or "furthering liberty"?
Ian
Title: Re: Just joined the forums...
Post by: kater on March 17, 2005, 09:20:47 am
What sort of brainwashing techniques do they use to get you to believe you're "defending freedom", or "furthering liberty"?

Oh, come now. ;)  I think that's a pretty common perception among those who even consider joining the military--and it some cases it may even be true.  (Well, at least defending freedom...)  I don't think it takes much if anything to paint that picture of the military for most folks; what takes effort is convincing them of the opposite.
Title: Re: Just joined the forums...
Post by: lloydbob1 on March 17, 2005, 05:46:34 pm
Even though our government has misused the military for more than 100 years, people join with the intent and willingness to, actually, defend U.S. citizens.
While few die, actually, defending us, some die while training to defend us.
Title: Re: Just joined the forums...
Post by: gh05t on March 17, 2005, 08:24:19 pm
To Ian:

I don't mean to mislead anyone - I've already been to Iraq, and I returned from that deployment on June 8th, 2003.  I was there for the beginning and actually did not experience any combat, thankfully.  I may be sent back, but that's not a certain thing.  I appreciate your good wishes though, thank you.  I have not joined yet, but I do have plans to do so very soon.

5th concerto:

My friend is actually an active duty Marine like myself, so he doesn't have full access to those circulars.  But his family does - and that's a great idea.  I'll see if I can get my hands on some of them.

Gabo:

Great questions, thanks for asking them.  Before I joined the Marine Corps, I had never heard of Libertarianism.  I was raised as a southern democrat in a mostly rural setting, until I was a teenager when I moved out of my parent's house and moved around a bit.  None of my friends were politcal at all, and politics just simply never meant much to me until I was right in the middle of the business end of it all.  I voted for Gore in 2000, but I did so out of reflex - like most Americans I had no idea who he was or what he stood for (if only I'd known) but I just kind of..."did it."  Which is, of course, one of the big problems with our political process.  I wouldn't have called myself a Democrat then, or ever.  I've always registered as an independent, and I will continue to do so.
Nothing that I have been told to do has upset me.  But as I said above, I did not experience what would be called "true combat."  I'm an avionics technician, and I was onboard a ship during the war.  I went through some sandstorms, saw missiles go overhead, and the ship (although I didn't actually see the missile) was the target of a missile attack.  I don't claim to be some salty, battle hardened grunt...I'm glad that I'm not, although I wouldn't hesitate to become one if it were asked of me.
That's because I honestly believe that not all things that are done with bad or greedy intentions have negative outcomes.  I personally believe and I have it on good sources that a lot of Iraqis are quite happy that we came to Iraq.  They feel like they're better off, they appreciate it a great deal.  They would like us to hurry up and go home, but most of them understand that we cannot do so just yet.  Ask me if I would go to Iran or something like that, and I'm not so sure.  If you would like to know if I could pull the trigger, then the answer is yes.  I am very thankful that I have not had to as yet, but I would not hesitate if the necessity presented itself.  We can talk more about it later, I don't want to ramble excessively in only my second post here...
But to address your final question, it's really not bad at all.  The troops are motivated, and really believe in the cause they're fighting for.  At least all the ones that I know of.  I know more people who have volunteered to re-enlist than I do people who have gotten out.  The pay and benefits, while not excellent; are still pretty good.  The food is not exactly the best, etc, etc...
Of course, all of this does nothing to address the ethical nature of the war, but as I said, we can talk more about that later.

I hope I haven't overlooked anyone's questions - I really appreciate the warm reception as well.  I'm going to visit my parents this weekend, so I may be a little slow with my next response.  I'm also going to check out Sage Francis at the Cat's Cradle on Saturday - I don't know if anyone's in the area, but if anyone's interested in hanging out that would be the time and place.  I'll be the tall redhead, and the only Marine in the place, I'm pretty sure.

Thanks again, everybody.
Title: Re: Just joined the forums...
Post by: Gabo on March 17, 2005, 09:43:51 pm
Thanks much for the detailed response!   :D


It's good to know it isn't total hell and chaos out there.
It's also nice to know we have at least one soldier who isn't brainwashed working on our side!  ;)
Title: Re: Just joined the forums...
Post by: FTL_Ian on March 17, 2005, 11:05:58 pm
Ghost, I know you're just recounting what you've heard from people on the ground, but for the record:

While there may be some Iraqis who appreciate what we've done, there are plenty who do not.  None of this death and destruction was worth it.  Thousands of our boys and girls are dead and wounded, as well as hundreds of thousands of Iraqis.

George Bush thinks it's worth it, but I know I don't, and I'm sure the parents of our dead and wounded troops don't either.

Ghost, being in the military, how would you feel about its complete abolition?  Or abolishing the Army / Marines?

Just curious,
Ian

Title: Re: Just joined the forums...
Post by: Gabo on March 18, 2005, 12:37:25 am
I say complete military abolition just won't work.


When I say it won't work, though, I don't really mean it can't work.

The problem is that too many people think we need military muscle so people won't pick on us.
If we maintain some military, it'll be a deterrent agaisnt attacking us.



I propose the only part of the military we keep is the National Guard....

as long as it's revised to use no tax dollars, and anyone with any combat skills can join.
That way we have a volunteer army that only activates when needed.
But other countries will also know we do have military to use if we need it.
This will also prevent all the militarists from going on killing rampages. ;)
Title: Re: Just joined the forums...
Post by: lloydbob1 on March 18, 2005, 08:53:41 am
We should start by disolving our historical, inneficient, often, redundant Armed Forces: Army, Marines, Navy, Air Force, and all of their equipment that is designed, not to protect our shores, but, to invade other countries.  Their traditions and Generals, often, help, lead us into war.
We need to replace them with a highly electronic monitoring system to avoid attack.
We need some kind of effective anti-missle system, as attack by missile will become more and more likely as more countries get missile technology.
A national Guard, alone, will not protect us.

Title: Re: Just joined the forums...
Post by: 5thconcerto on March 18, 2005, 09:33:19 am
First step,
Return all military personnel to American soil.
Title: Re: Just joined the forums...
Post by: FTL_Ian on March 18, 2005, 09:47:25 am
First step,
Return all military personnel to American soil.

What a wonderful day that will be.
Title: Re: Just joined the forums...
Post by: RidleyReport on March 20, 2005, 06:47:46 pm
Welcome gho5t! 

Guys people join the marines in many cases because they believe in protecting the few freedoms we have left!

Thanks for your service and I look forward to meeting you in person when you get here to NH

Hope you will consider coming to Porcupine Fest here in July:

http://freestateproject.org/news/festival/
Title: Re: Just joined the forums...
Post by: Green on March 20, 2005, 06:50:19 pm
First step,
Return all military personnel to American soil.

Easier said than done... have to build the anti-war movement if we want that to happen.

Demanding military recruitment out of our communities and local high schools is the first step.
Title: Re: Just joined the forums...
Post by: 5thconcerto on March 20, 2005, 07:15:18 pm
First step,
Return all military personnel to American soil.

Easier said than done... have to build the anti-war movement if we want that to happen.

Demanding military recruitment out of our communities and local high schools is the first step.

You just don't get it green. I wasn't just talking about Iraq. I want ALL military personnel on our soil. Your way is exclusionary. Hey, I have an idea, let's not let Green Party candidates/members in our communities and schools. 
Title: Re: Just joined the forums...
Post by: Green on March 20, 2005, 07:24:47 pm
First step,
Return all military personnel to American soil.

Easier said than done... have to build the anti-war movement if we want that to happen.

Demanding military recruitment out of our communities and local high schools is the first step.

You just don't get it green. I wasn't just talking about Iraq. I want ALL military personnel on our soil. Your way is exclusionary. Hey, I have an idea, let's not let Green Party candidates/members in our communities and schools. 

The military is a government agency, and the most wasteful, bloated, and destructive agency at that.  I thought you were against big government.
Title: Re: Just joined the forums...
Post by: 5thconcerto on March 20, 2005, 07:34:17 pm
Quote
Green:The military is a government agency, and the most wasteful, bloated, and destructive agency at that.  I thought you were against big government.

You just can't stop making assumptions. Why don't you read what someone writes, rather than what you expect them to write?
I'll spell it out for you, even though you probably won't pay attention.
I want all military personnel on American soil. Yes, we do have FAR more than we need for defensive purposes. Preventing the military from recruiting in towns is childish. There is something called freedom of speech involved. Of course you only believe in it when it suits your purpose.
You need to grow up green. Nobody is going to take you at all seriously until you quit with your childish "smashing" things, and whining when things don't go your way.
Title: Re: Just joined the forums...
Post by: Green on March 20, 2005, 07:39:27 pm
Quote
Green:The military is a government agency, and the most wasteful, bloated, and destructive agency at that.  I thought you were against big government.

You just can't stop making assumptions. Why don't you read what someone writes, rather than what you expect them to write?
I'll spell it out for you, even though you probably won't pay attention.
I want all military personnel on American soil. Yes, we do have FAR more than we need for defensive purposes. Preventing the military from recruiting in towns is childish. There is something called freedom of speech involved. Of course you only believe in it when it suits your purpose.
You need to grow up green. Nobody is going to take you at all seriously until you quit with your childish "smashing" things, and whining when things don't go your way.

"Whining"?  I'm a political activist and organizer who is working to transform society.  Talking about reality is not "whining" unless you prefer that everyone should just shutup and not express their opinions.

And military recruitment is not about "free speech" its about the federal government forcing communities to let their children be harrassed by the military.  The "No Child Left Behind" act mandates that all public schools disclose the names, phone numbers, and residence of every junior and senior student, and requires that the school allow military recruiters into the building at any time during school hours to talk with students.

I'm not advocating that individuals who happen to be in the military be censored- they have the right to say whatever they want.  I'm advocating that the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT STOPS FORCING OUR COMMUNITIES AND SCHOOLS TO BE HAVENS FOR THE PROMOTION OF MILITARISM AND IMPERIALISM.
Title: Re: Just joined the forums...
Post by: 5thconcerto on March 20, 2005, 07:45:47 pm
So you noticed there are "strings" involved with Federal Assistance Programs. Why aren't you advocating that schools and state/local governments NOT TAKE federal assistance monies? If thy don't take the money, they don't have to abide by the "strings".
Title: Re: Just joined the forums...
Post by: FTL_Ian on March 20, 2005, 10:48:08 pm
The military needs to be repealed.  It's nothing more than the Post Office in fatigues.  Actually, the Post Office actually provides a service, (though a poor one).
Title: Re: Just joined the forums...
Post by: JonM on March 21, 2005, 12:13:02 am
The military needs to be repealed.  It's nothing more than the Post Office in fatigues.  Actually, the Post Office actually provides a service, (though a poor one).

Allow me to be the first veteran to take offense at that statement and suggest that insulting an entire pool of potential FSP recruits is not perhaps the best of ideas.  Regardless of how the military is used or misused by our country's leaders, the spirit that brings one to join the military tends to be an honorable one.  Though there are many in now who joined in peace time and did not expect to end up in a war zone, their bravery in defense of what they believe to be this nation's interests should not be denigrated so.  They may come to question the wisdom of the leaders that put them in harm's way, and they may find the FSP and consider that its goals are truly what the spirit America is meant to be and join us.  Even the ones who believe that being in Iraq and serving as a target for the terrorists who might otherwise come to America to bring the attacks here may find value in the goals of the FSP when they come back home.

Military folks are used to moving around, many have been in far worse climates than New England, and many have leadership abilities that would serve them quite well as political activists.  Let us not cast aspersions on the tools for what the carpenter builds with them.
Title: Re: Just joined the forums...
Post by: Green on March 21, 2005, 12:43:21 am
The military needs to be repealed.  It's nothing more than the Post Office in fatigues.  Actually, the Post Office actually provides a service, (though a poor one).

Allow me to be the first veteran to take offense at that statement and suggest that insulting an entire pool of potential FSP recruits is not perhaps the best of ideas.  Regardless of how the military is used or misused by our country's leaders, the spirit that brings one to join the military tends to be an honorable one.

I have to very strongly disagree with you on this.  I have friends who joined the national guard and ROTC to pay for college, but not because they thought it was honorable.

The United States military is the most murderous, destructive, and reactionary institution in the world today. In just over 3 years, it is responsible for the death of hundreds of thousands of innocent Iraqi civilians and the imperial conquering of three nations- Afghanistan, Iraq, and Haiti.

On top of that, it has a long and well-documented history (though rarely discussed in “mainstream” politics) of being a tool for the repression and subjugation of literally hundreds of nations, and billions of people throughout the world. To be blunt, our government is a world empire. That’s right, I said it- we are subjects of an empire.

There is nothing "honorable" about serving that system, ESPECIALLY if you think that you are doing it to "defend freedom."  All it shows is that you are blindly nationalistic, conservative, or believe that the government defends freedom, rather than simply being a tool of repression, which it is in reality.
Title: Re: Just joined the forums...
Post by: FTL_Ian on March 21, 2005, 12:45:08 am
Allow me to be the first veteran to take offense at that statement and suggest that insulting an entire pool of potential FSP recruits is not perhaps the best of ideas. 
Whoa there!  Settle down.  There was no insult in my quote.  Just a valid comparison.  The military is a waste of time, money, effort, and life.

Quote
Regardless of how the military is used or misused by our country's leaders, the spirit that brings one to join the military tends to be an honorable one.
Sure it's honorable.  It could be argued that it's honorable to want to deliver the mail as well.

Quote
Though there are many in now who joined in peace time and did not expect to end up in a war zone,
If there's one thing you can safely expect from the military, it's that there are real good odds your ass is going to be in a war zone.  I'm sorry the troops were duped by the propaganda, but to feel sorry because they thought the wouldn't have to fight?  I can't do that.

Quote
their bravery in defense of what they believe to be this nation's interests should not be denigrated so.
Postal Employees' bravery to deliver the mail need not be denigrated.  I never denigrated anybody.  Incidentally, I feel sorry for the postal employees too.

Quote
They may come to question the wisdom of the leaders that put them in harm's way, and they may find the FSP and consider that its goals are truly what the spirit America is meant to be and join us.
Many ex-military come to this line of thinking, from those I've spoken with.  Well, assuming they survived the brainwashing and bullets, they do.

Quote
Military folks are used to moving around, many have been in far worse climates than New England, and many have leadership abilities that would serve them quite well as political activists.  Let us not cast aspersions on the tools for what the carpenter builds with them.
Again, you read WAY to far into my statement.

Thanks for your thoughts,
Ian
Title: Re: Just joined the forums...
Post by: JonM on March 21, 2005, 01:31:03 am
The military needs to be repealed.  It's nothing more than the Post Office in fatigues.  Actually, the Post Office actually provides a service, (though a poor one).

Allow me to be the first veteran to take offense at that statement and suggest that insulting an entire pool of potential FSP recruits is not perhaps the best of ideas.  Regardless of how the military is used or misused by our country's leaders, the spirit that brings one to join the military tends to be an honorable one.

I have to very strongly disagree with you on this.  I have friends who joined the national guard and ROTC to pay for college, but not because they thought it was honorable.
For those joining the ROTC, I have no pity for them.  They did not join the ROTC in a world where we weren't sending the military off to conflicts every few years.  When I joined in 1989 we hadn't done much more than a field trip to Grenada.  After the first gulf war started a year later, there is little excuse for anyone joining the ROTC, active duty or Reserves for not expecting the possibility they might be sent to war.  As far as the National Guard goes, I tend to believe the National part of that should ring true.  They joined with the expectation they might be called up to help out in some sort of natural disaster, not to be sent to another country because the active duty forces had been so depleted that they were the only way to fill the gap.  For them I have pity, they got into something they had no reason to expect to get into.

Quote
The United States military is the most murderous, destructive, and reactionary institution in the world today. In just over 3 years, it is responsible for the death of hundreds of thousands of innocent Iraqi civilians and the imperial conquering of three nations- Afghanistan, Iraq, and Haiti.
I'm sure the millions killed by other regimes around the world might tend to disagree with you that the U.S. Military should take that top "honor."   I doubt most of the people in Afghanistan are unhappy with what happened to the Taliban who were repressing them.  Time will tell in Iraq, and as for Haiti, welcome to Bill Clinton's world of military intervention.  Nothing about that ever made much sense, then or now.  I believe the UN is in charge of that debacle at the moment.

Quote
On top of that, it has a long and well-documented history (though rarely discussed in “mainstream” politics) of being a tool for the repression and subjugation of literally hundreds of nations, and billions of people throughout the world. To be blunt, our government is a world empire. That’s right, I said it- we are subjects of an empire.

Then why is gas $3 a gallon in California?  We're a pretty lousy empire if you ask me.  I'm pretty sure the over 1 billion people of China are un-subjected by our military.  In fact, I'm pretty sure the majority of people on Earth are being subjected by someone other than the United States, but I suppose that might well depend on what your definition of subjected is.

Quote
There is nothing "honorable" about serving that system, ESPECIALLY if you think that you are doing it to "defend freedom."  All it shows is that you are blindly nationalistic, conservative, or believe that the government defends freedom, rather than simply being a tool of repression, which it is in reality.
I disagree.  But then, based on how you react to those who disagrees with your view of the world, this is not surprising.
Title: Re: Just joined the forums...
Post by: JonM on March 21, 2005, 01:41:55 am
Allow me to be the first veteran to take offense at that statement and suggest that insulting an entire pool of potential FSP recruits is not perhaps the best of ideas. 
Whoa there!  Settle down.  There was no insult in my quote.  Just a valid comparison.  The military is a waste of time, money, effort, and life.

So allow me to take offense to that as well.

Quote
Quote
Regardless of how the military is used or misused by our country's leaders, the spirit that brings one to join the military tends to be an honorable one.
Sure it's honorable.  It could be argued that it's honorable to want to deliver the mail as well.

And that.

Quote
Quote
Though there are many in now who joined in peace time and did not expect to end up in a war zone,
If there's one thing you can safely expect from the military, it's that there are real good odds your ass is going to be in a war zone.  I'm sorry the troops were duped by the propaganda, but to feel sorry because they thought the wouldn't have to fight?  I can't do that.

Who asked for your pity? I merely point out that it may not be in the best interest of FSP recruitment to blanket insult a pool of potential recruits.

Quote
Quote
their bravery in defense of what they believe to be this nation's interests should not be denigrated so.
Postal Employees' bravery to deliver the mail need not be denigrated.  I never denigrated anybody.  Incidentally, I feel sorry for the postal employees too.

Quote
They may come to question the wisdom of the leaders that put them in harm's way, and they may find the FSP and consider that its goals are truly what the spirit America is meant to be and join us.
Many ex-military come to this line of thinking, from those I've spoken with.  Well, assuming they survived the brainwashing and bullets, they do.

Feel free to stop at any time.

Quote
Quote
Military folks are used to moving around, many have been in far worse climates than New England, and many have leadership abilities that would serve them quite well as political activists.  Let us not cast aspersions on the tools for what the carpenter builds with them.
Again, you read WAY to far into my statement.


Words have power.  People will interpret your statements through the prism of their own perspective, not yours.  Though you may not intend to insult, you do.  Though you may not wish to repel, you might.

Quote
Thanks for your thoughts,
Ian

You're welcome.
Title: Re: Just joined the forums...
Post by: Rocketman on March 21, 2005, 08:54:20 am
Quote
I'm advocating that the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT STOPS FORCING OUR COMMUNITIES AND SCHOOLS TO BE HAVENS FOR THE PROMOTION OF MILITARISM AND IMPERIALISM.

Government schools are havens for statism in all its ugly forms.  Green only wishes to remove one of the forms.

I'm advocating that the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT STOPS FORCING OUR SCHOOLS (and by extension, our communities) TO BE HAVENS FOR THE PROMOTION OF STATISM.  Schools force students to accept, from an early age, the legitimacy of arbitrary power.  The result is widespread acceptance of militarism and imperialism, as well as drug prohibition, massive beauracracies, the two-party political system, the idea that individuals are incapable of making their own decisions, and the myth that 90% of Americans would have starved to death by now if big brother hadn't hooked people on "safety net" entitlement programs.

Also, anyone who jumps Ian for his occasionally blunt statements should probably consider just how many people his radio show recruits for the FSP.  Sometimes bluntness is what people need to hear.  I'd like to respect the military, but it's awfully hard when I disagree with 80% of what they currently do.  Same with cops... I support them 100% when they are catching real criminals, but when they are fighting the Drug War, they are my sworn enemy.  So my message to all: if you want my complete respect, don't participate in the fighting of an unjust war.

To quote an old Phil Ohcs song (yeah, I know he was a confused socialist... sorry  ;) ): "Is there anyone here who thinks that followin' the orders takes away the blame?"  Also: "If I've got something to say, sir, I'm gonna say it now."

What's your take, gho5t?
Title: Re: Just joined the forums...
Post by: 5thconcerto on March 21, 2005, 08:59:25 am
Re comments on Ian. I'd take Ian over 95% of the population, but if I disagree with him, I will say so. I would expect the same from him, you, or anybody.
Title: Re: Just joined the forums...
Post by: FTL_Ian on March 21, 2005, 03:45:51 pm
So allow me to take offense to that as well.
Perhaps instead of just registering offense, you could explain how it is that the military is not a waste of time, money, effort, and life?

Quote
Who asked for your pity? I merely point out that it may not be in the best interest of FSP recruitment to blanket insult a pool of potential recruits.
Allow me to point out that not all military people will consider them insults!

Quote
Words have power.  People will interpret your statements through the prism of their own perspective, not yours.  Though you may not intend to insult, you do.  Though you may not wish to repel, you might.
Jon, I can't please everybody, and I won't try.  I'm not here to recruit people.  I do that outside of this forum.  If you were insulted by my statements, I'm sorry about that, but I'm not sorry I made them.  That's what I believe.  You believe the military is worth something, and I don't.  I eagerly await your answer as to why it is not a waste of time, money, effort, and life.

Regards,
Ian
Title: Re: Just joined the forums...
Post by: JonM on March 21, 2005, 04:24:40 pm
Had we no military during say the last 60 years, what language do you expect we would be typing in?  Indeed, what would Europe look like?  We must face the world that exists, not the one we wish to exist.  While there were expansionist regimes on this planet who wished to control more territory than they already had, those who did not have the means to fend them off were subject to the very subjugation that Green brought up.  As it is now, I wonder how long before China decides the territory they control isn't enough for them.  One can hope they figure out economics is a better solution than warfare, but this does not always appear to be the case with them.  Hopefully their recent saber rattling toward Taiwan is nothing more than that.

Do we need a standing army as large as we have had just to deter someone from coming in and bombing the hell out of us until we surrender?  No, we don't.  Would the United States of America be what it is today, good or bad, if we had nothing but "minutemen" ready to take up arms at need?  I doubt it, but perhaps that's just me.  You may decry the existence of the military all you like, but you owe your ability to decry them to their existence.  Even if they were just cleaning up messes that might not have existed in the world we'd like to live in, we can only visit that world in our imagination for now.
Title: Re: Just joined the forums...
Post by: Green on March 21, 2005, 04:29:24 pm
Had we no military during say the last 60 years, what language do you expect we would be typing in?  Indeed, what would Europe look like?  We must face the world that exists, not the one we wish to exist.  While there were expansionist regimes on this planet who wished to control more territory than they already had,

What, like the United States Federal Government for the last 200 years?

Quote
those who did not have the means to fend them off were subject to the very subjugation that Green brought up.  As it is now, I wonder how long before China decides the territory they control isn't enough for them.  One can hope they figure out economics is a better solution than warfare, but this does not always appear to be the case with them.  Hopefully their recent saber rattling toward Taiwan is nothing more than that.

Do we need a standing army as large as we have had just to deter someone from coming in and bombing the hell out of us until we surrender?  No, we don't.  Would the United States of America be what it is today, good or bad, if we had nothing but "minutemen" ready to take up arms at need?  I doubt it, but perhaps that's just me.  You may decry the existence of the military all you like, but you owe your ability to decry them to their existence.

Nope, I owe it to the generations of people who organized for social change, and who believed that ordinary people could change the world.  I owe it to the Haymarket martyers, Eugene Debs, Emma Goldman, all the IWWers fighting for working class solidarity, the Communists in the CIO, Martin Luther King Jr and all the civil rights movement, all the radical students of the New Left who fought against war, for women's liberation, for an enviromental conciousness.

I owe it to all those who have struggled in ages past for freedom, democracy, social justice, and human rights -- NOT to some statist military institution that is simply an instrument of imperialism and war.

Quote
Even if they were just cleaning up messes that might not have existed in the world we'd like to live in, we can only visit that world in our imagination for now.

WOW!!!

You really believe that?  The United States has the most expansionist and militarist history of any nation-state in existence today.

Do you know who installed the Baathist regime in Iraq in 1968?
Title: Re: Just joined the forums...
Post by: FTL_Ian on March 21, 2005, 04:39:38 pm
Had we no military during say the last 60 years, what language do you expect we would be typing in?
English.

Quote
Indeed, what would Europe look like?
I don't care, that's Europe's problem.  I don't live there.

Quote
We must face the world that exists, not the one we wish to exist.
Too bad our presidents use the military to enforce their wishes for the world.

Quote
  While there were expansionist regimes on this planet who wished to control more territory than they already had, those who did not have the means to fend them off were subject to the very subjugation that Green brought up.
Is that an excuse for foreign interventionism?  Too bad for them.  Let them fight their own wars.

Quote
As it is now, I wonder how long before China decides the territory they control isn't enough for them.  One can hope they figure out economics is a better solution than warfare, but this does not always appear to be the case with them.  Hopefully their recent saber rattling toward Taiwan is nothing more than that.
Are you suggesting they would invade the USA?  I hope China continues down the Free Market path they have been toying with...

Quote
Do we need a standing army as large as we have had just to deter someone from coming in and bombing the hell out of us until we surrender?  No, we don't.
We agree after all!

Quote
Would the United States of America be what it is today, good or bad, if we had nothing but "minutemen" ready to take up arms at need?  I doubt it, but perhaps that's just me.
It's just you.  We'd be SO much better off.  Those who died "in service" would have lived.  They would have been productive instead of destructive.  Our government would likely be smaller.  Our taxes, less.  We'd not be hated worldwide.

Quote
You may decry the existence of the military all you like, but you owe your ability to decry them to their existence.  Even if they were just cleaning up messes that might not have existed in the world we'd like to live in, we can only visit that world in our imagination for now.
Nope, I owe it to those who fought for our freedom against the British.  Our military wasn't involved in that fight.

Regards,
Ian
Title: Re: Just joined the forums...
Post by: JonM on March 21, 2005, 05:41:04 pm
Are you suggesting that if we were unable to put up a meaningful fight, the USSR would not invade and conquer the United States and Canada during the 20th century?  I mean, invading other countries to spread Communism was so unlike them . . . except for all the countries they invaded of course.

I disagree with you both.  Had the United States had no military during the 20th century, there would be, in my opinion, no United States in the 21st century.  We would at best be a territory of a country that did have a good sized military and knew how to use it.  We could have sat back and done nothing during the second World War, and let the Germans eventually wipe England off the face of the Earth.  Perhaps the USSR kicks their ass, but absent the threat of the U.S. on the western front maybe Germany is able to handle the USSR.  Or perhaps the Nazis develop atomic weapons first and nuke the crap out of Moscow.  Non-Interventionist America gets the surrender or be nuked option.  Either way, what would stop the Axis powers from taking over the entire planet?

The British were an expansionist empire, and they were fairly good at it.  The Spanish did pretty well at it as well.  We appear to suck at empire building.  If we were as expansionist as Green thinks, why not just annex Afghanistan once we invade?  That's what a real empire builder would do.

If we decommissioned every piece of military equipment we had and retired every soldier, sailor, airman and marine and got rid of all our nukes, do I think someone would invade us?  Damn straight I do, what would stop them?  Perhaps I'm overly paranoid, but that's my opinion.
Title: Re: Just joined the forums...
Post by: Green on March 21, 2005, 05:52:29 pm
Are you suggesting that if we were unable to put up a meaningful fight, the USSR would not invade and conquer the United States and Canada during the 20th century?  I mean, invading other countries to spread Communism was so unlike them . . . except for all the countries they invaded of course.

I disagree with you both.  Had the United States had no military during the 20th century, there would be, in my opinion, no United States in the 21st century.  We would at best be a territory of a country that did have a good sized military and knew how to use it.  We could have sat back and done nothing during the second World War, and let the Germans eventually wipe England off the face of the Earth.  Perhaps the USSR kicks their ass, but absent the threat of the U.S. on the western front maybe Germany is able to handle the USSR.  Or perhaps the Nazis develop atomic weapons first and nuke the crap out of Moscow.  Non-Interventionist America gets the surrender or be nuked option.  Either way, what would stop the Axis powers from taking over the entire planet?

The British were an expansionist empire, and they were fairly good at it.  The Spanish did pretty well at it as well.  We appear to suck at empire building.  If we were as expansionist as Green thinks, why not just annex Afghanistan once we invade?  That's what a real empire builder would do.

If we decommissioned every piece of military equipment we had and retired every soldier, sailor, airman and marine and got rid of all our nukes, do I think someone would invade us?  Damn straight I do, what would stop them?  Perhaps I'm overly paranoid, but that's my opinion.


You realize that you are defending the most statist, authoritarian, and single most expensive department of our Federal government when you say things like this?  The United States spends as much on its military-industrial complex as nations #2-8 combined, and at the current rate, will be spending more than the rest of the world combined by 2012.

The military (and police) are the very basis of the state.  You cannot legitimately claim to be against big government while defending the United States military.
Title: Re: Just joined the forums...
Post by: JonM on March 21, 2005, 05:56:53 pm
Do we need a standing army as large as we have had just to deter someone from coming in and bombing the hell out of us until we surrender?  No, we don't.
We agree after all!
I never said I totally disagreed with you, I said I found the way in which you presented your case to be insulting.  The military wastes tons of money, as any government agency is wont to do.  We spend billions upon billions needlessly and inefficiently.  But I do disagree that they are completely useless, which is the implication I got from your statement.  Simply as a deterrent to those who wish to control more than they currently control they are useful.  In July of 1990 we thought we no longer lived in a world where one country would invade and annex another.  In August we learned we were wrong.  Was it right to hire out our military basically as mercenaries to Kuwait to get their country back for them?  Perhaps not, perhaps we could have let them fend for themselves and worked on a better source of energy while Saddam invaded Saudi Arabia and took control of much of that region.  It's not really our business if we can just kick our oil habit.  I'm sure there are people who would be very comfortable with that option.  And it's possible that given the necessity to develop a better energy strategy we might have come up with something that let us thumb our nose at the whole region.  I wish I could know the answer to questions such as those.  But someone decided otherwise and we live and die with the consequences of that decision.  Our adventures in foreign policy have dug us many holes that we simply can't turn our backs on and walk away from without repercussions.  Perhaps over time we can extricate ourselves from these messes and not leave people wanting to turn our country into the world's largest radioactive wasteland.  Perhaps
Title: Re: Just joined the forums...
Post by: JonM on March 21, 2005, 06:06:07 pm
You realize that you are defending the most statist, authoritarian, and single most expensive department of our Federal government when you say things like this?  The United States spends as much on its military-industrial complex as nations #2-8 combined, and at the current rate, will be spending more than the rest of the world combined by 2012.

The military (and police) are the very basis of the state.  You cannot legitimately claim to be against big government while defending the United States military.
I say their existence is not all bad and I'll stand by that.  I'll agree that they are by far bigger than they need to be to protect our country from all the people we've pissed off over the years.  I am not anti-state, I signed a pledge to reduce the size of government in New Hampshire, not to eliminate it.  Nothing in what I signed up for has anything to do with the size and shape of the Federal Government, though I wish its size were smaller.  Perhaps (is this my favorite word in this thread or what?) in time I will come to agree with the more anarchist point of view that most things are better left to non governmental solutions.  I can at least see the logic of it now, even if I don't quite agree with it at this point for all functions.

And I do believe the single most expensive department in our Federal Government is Health and Human Services.  Defense is second to the Treasury at third.
Title: Re: Just joined the forums...
Post by: lloydbob1 on March 21, 2005, 06:19:55 pm
  The United States spends as much on its military-industrial complex as nations #2-8 combined,

We're probably defending 2-8, as well.
Title: Re: Just joined the forums...
Post by: gh05t on March 21, 2005, 07:17:08 pm
Wow - I seem to have generated (or at least highlighted) some healthy debate here.  Sorry I took so long to get back on this topic, I visited my parents over the weekend and had no time to check the forum.  I spent the whole time talking with my good friend Christian from Germany about everything, including politics.

Warning, the following is quite long.  If anyone wishes to skip it, then just jump ahead to the dotted line near the bottom.

A lot of what he had to say makes sense, but only when taken in the context of what seems to be conventional wisdom in America.  He tells me that Germany is quite divided about the Iraq war.  I had no idea - how could I, since no news agancy other than Fox would report such a thing?  We discussed a lot of percentages (for example, he told me that he believes that Farenheit 9/11 was about 60% real facts, and 40% hype and propaganda) - but this one shocked me.  We are almost constantly reminded that everyone who is not an American wild-eyed conservative whacko red-stater is absolutely opposed to the Iraq war.  This is simply not the case.  Granted, the numbers are not scientific, but my friend estimates that about 60% of Germans oppose the war (for whatever reason), 35% support it and 5% either do not know or do not care.
Later on, when we went to a concert on Saturday (Sage Francis & Atmosphere) - and by the way, these musicians are VERY politcal, and VERY anti-Bush - one of the performers talked about how Fox News is merely republican propaganda.  He then suggested that we read Aljazeera instead.  I've had Aljazeera's Arabic version translated for me.  It's not the same stories that they put on the English version.  In fact, there's a lot of what I would call gross manipulations of facts...
Here's an interesting idea - instead of propaganda A, let's go get some of propaganda B and then act like we know what's going on better than everyone else.  As if lie #1 were superior to lie #2 or vice versa...
My point is bascially in reference to the first rebuttal that I recieved - about Iraqis being unhappy with the war.  Certainly some Iraqis do not want us there.  Certainly some Germans oppose the war.  But if we rely on information given to us second- third- and fourth-hand by people who have demonstrated their agenda to mislead us rather than the first-hand accounts of those who we trust to tell us the truth, then can we really claim to be making a strong point based on that information?  Certainly, some Iraqis are unhappy with the course of the war - perhaps even a majority, although given the situation in that country it is unlikely that poll data is reliable - however, that simple statement overlooks the relevant fact that most of these unsatisfied are unhappy about the length of the occupation, and not the original action of the invasion.  I would venture to say that most Iraqis - overwhelmingly - supported the original action.  While I accept that argument that some Iraqis don't want us there, it does not follow that all Iraqis are very angry and never wanted

However, that doesn't make it right.  Taken from any angle, the Iraq war is questionable at best.  There's the WMD argument:  True, we know that he HAD WMD - after all, we sold them to him.  If he did not destroy them under UN supervision then they are now in the hands of those who have more of an intention to use them against us.  There's the argument that it was done to spread freedom and democracy, but this becomes questionable under scrutiny as well.  I personally believe that if it had been the original intention of the invasion, then it would have been quite hard for the Security Council to refuse to cooperate.  However, we used the existence of WMD to justify the war originally...Also, some argue that the war is a means to steal or control oil.  I find this argument to be lacking the necessary flavor of truth in that it makes more sense to deal with a crooked dictator who has a stranglehold on his people and therefore the resources of the country than to remove said dictator and create a lawless war zone where oil producing and transporting infrastructure are easy targets.
We must consider this argument:  It is possible that Bush is evil, and it is possible that Bush is stupid.  However, it is not possible that he is both stupid and evil.  If Bush is evil, then he invaded Iraq for evil purposes.  However, that requires us to assume that everyone who is participating in the war is also either evil or stupid, and that is not likely.  If Bush is stupid, then it is possible that he is being controlled by evil people.  However, this also requires that everyone else be either stupid or evil as well; as well as requiring us to believe that Bush is stupid, which is not likely.  Therefore, we must consider the possibility that the invasion of Iraq was done with good and honorable intentions by at least some of the people who have participated in it, although some others may have bad intentions.  I personally believe that this is true of most government actions:  That some people are doing what they believe to be the right thing - indeed, some who are doing wrong believe this as well - and some are doing evil.

----------------------------------------------------------------

On the Iraq war, short version:  Invading Iraq on the cause of WMD was a bad idea.  Staying one second longer than we absolutely have to is a bad idea.  That being said, we have to move very quickly to disengage correctly from this situation, although we cannot leave immediately.
On the idea of disbanding the military:  The current state of military affairs on this planet require advanced systems for viable defense.  These systems require constant training in order to operate and maintain.  Therefore, disbanding the military leaves a country wide-open to attack, and other coutries would certainly take advantage of that opening.  However...
On the military in general:  The branch system is outdated and must be done away with.  All naval operations should be handled by the navy, all air operations by the airforce, and all land by the army.  The three "branches" should become one, and train together much like the navy and marine corps do.  A standing, professional military is a requirement in this day and age.  That will not change for a while.  If we were still using muskets, then minutemen would be enough - but we are not, and more's the pity.  If we wish to revert to a self-defense posture of lightly armed volunteers, then we can expect to fight a guerila war much akin to what is now going on in Iraq and Chechnya, and I'm sure we do not want that.  American needs jets, and ships, and patriot missile systems, and all of those systems require full-time training and maintenance.  However, the military should be pulled back to American soil - this is not to say that training deployments are out of the question, but full-time duty stations should be in America only.
On military recruitment in schools:  If you send your child to a government school, then you are already exposing them to a pretty heavy dose of indoctrination, misinformation, and statism.  I would worry less about the idea that a recruiter might give them a pamphlet and more about the "information" they are being "taught" and tested on.  My girlfriend didn't know that there was a difference between communism and nazism.  Thank you, public schools!  No one is being forced into the military.  These kids have the option to quit at any time during boot camp.  They have the option to tell the recruiter to **** himself.  Once we ban the recruiters from the schools, we'd logically have to ban them from the malls, then the restaurants, etc...The end result is conscription, and in my opinion that is not morally or qualitatively superior to allowing recruiters access to government schools.  However, I do see why some take issue with it, and I can concede that it is not a perfect thing.  I simply believe that the end of state-sponsored education will be more effective to resolving the issue than banning recruiters from schools.

Final point:  There is no need to be anti-military.  While some few are here only for college money and some other few are sadists who want to kill all the brown people, I will tell you in no uncertain terms that the majority of us in the services are here because we chose to defend a country that we love.  In this we are little different that the patriots of the past.  The nature of the government is the responsiblity of the American people.  While I hold ultimate responsibility for my actions, the American people are responsible for installing leaders who give me good orders...I only have one vote - and beyond that I am merely able to refuse orders if I believe that they are illegal...The larger ethical quandary is in the hands of the people, and not the military.  It is irrational to say that servicemembers are here for college money, beause there are easier ways of getting it.  It is also irrational to make the comparison to the postal service...I personally believe that while the employees of the US Postal Service are on the whole good people, their lot is markedly different...I'm not taking offense to the argument, just saying that I do not find it to be cogent.

*ahem*  /ramble.

I'm sorry for going on so long, but I've got nothing else going on right now, honestly.  Once again, no offense intended to anyone, and thanks to everyone for the warm welcome as well as the lively debate.
Title: Re: Just joined the forums...
Post by: Green on March 21, 2005, 08:06:24 pm
So here we have, what, 3 (i think?) pro-war "Libertarians" shilling for the occupation of Iraq and US military?

Herself, nonluddite...

This is exactly what I was telling you earlier.  Redefining "Libertarian" from meaning anti-state socialist to meaning capitalist has severly perverted our entire political system, and is directly responsible for the right-ward shift of recent years.

There is only one principled anti-war position, and that is "TROOPS HOME NOW!"  Its funny how I'm having such a hardtime finding LP and FSP members who agree with this.  It is making it more difficult to build the anti-war movement, in order to demand an immediate end to the occupation of Iraq, and thus is helping the pro-war cause, and by extension is helping the state.  In other words, your ideology feeds the statist beast we live under.

There is no excuse for someone professing to be a Libertarian that does not calling for an unconditional and immediate withdrawal of all United States troops.  I'm never going to convince these guys of it.  Its up to you.

We need to end this war.  Its not going to happen by talking about comprimising with the neo-cons and liberal hawks.  We need a unified front against militarism.  Remember: WAR IS THE HEALTH OF THE STATE.
Title: Re: Just joined the forums...
Post by: lloydbob1 on March 21, 2005, 08:29:52 pm
I didn't go back and count, but, I hope your not including me in you count.
I don't think the US has been, legimately, involved in any war since 1812, and, we could have avoided that one, if privite trade ships took responsibility defending themselves.
I have stated, in this forum,  probably, half a dozen times that we should bring our troops home from everywhere they are stationed, put them on our borders for as long as we have any kind of welfare state, and, danger of terrorism.
Dissolve all of the traditional, Branches of the military and create one, highly electronic defense agency to detect and respond to any possible attack.
Develop an effective method of detecting and destroying any missiles that might be delivered by our enemies using technology that we gave them.
This has been my position since men my age were dying in Vietnam.

Oh, and a lot of people on this forum are not libertarians.
Title: Re: Just joined the forums...
Post by: SteveA on March 21, 2005, 08:41:05 pm
Welcome aboard Gho5t :)  Glad you found us.

Quote
We're probably defending 2-8, as well.

Or occupying them, depending on your viewpoint.

Quote
Dissolve all of the traditional, Branches of the military and create one, highly electronic defense agency to detect and respond to any possible attack.
Develop an effective method of detecting and destroying any missiles that might be delivered by our enemies using technology that we gave them.
This has been my position since men my age were dying in Vietnam.

I agree that technology, not manpower is the only possible solution long-term.  We'll suffer the same fate as other large military nations if we continually devote a large percent of our available manpower to the military.  In the long run we'll have slower growth and ultimately lose economically.  Putting those resources back into the economy provides longer term growth and technology that can let us stay ahead of the arms game (well at least until someone develops a really really big weapon that noone can do anything about ... but that's a different discussion).

Quote
Oh, and a lot of people on this forum are not libertarians.

True
Title: Re: Just joined the forums...
Post by: KBCraig on March 21, 2005, 08:56:39 pm
However, it is not possible that he is both stupid and evil.

You never met my ex-mother-in-law.

Kevin
Title: Re: Just joined the forums...
Post by: JonM on March 21, 2005, 08:59:41 pm
I've never once claimed to be a Libertarian, though I have acknowledged libertarian ideas run through my head.

I believe actions have consequences, and I believe simply abandoning Iraq right now has worse consequences than staying to get them on their feet, as it were.  Welcome to the Pottery Barn theory of foreign policy.

Now I'd think everyone would be happier if Iraq was just dissolved into the states that existed before England created Iraq after WWI.  Of course, Turkey doesn't want to see an independent Kurdish state, which appears to be the sticking point for that, because the oil rights and revenue sharing could probably be hammered out in treaties and constitutions.
Title: Re: Just joined the forums...
Post by: Greenbacks on March 21, 2005, 10:15:25 pm
Quote
Also, some argue that the war is a means to steal or control oil.  I find this argument to be lacking the necessary flavor of truth in that it makes more sense to deal with a crooked dictator who has a stranglehold on his people and therefore the resources of the country than to remove said dictator and create a lawless war zone where oil producing and transporting infrastructure are easy targets.

remember "we" thought "we" would be greeted as liberators...

Quote
We must consider this argument:  It is possible that Bush is evil, and it is possible that Bush is stupid.  However, it is not possible that he is both stupid and evil.  If Bush is evil, then he invaded Iraq for evil purposes.  However, that requires us to assume that everyone who is participating in the war is also either evil or stupid, and that is not likely.  If Bush is stupid, then it is possible that he is being controlled by evil people.  However, this also requires that everyone else be either stupid or evil as well; as well as requiring us to believe that Bush is stupid, which is not likely.  Therefore, we must consider the possibility that the invasion of Iraq was done with good and honorable intentions by at least some of the people who have participated in it, although some others may have bad intentions.  I personally believe that this is true of most government actions:  That some people are doing what they believe to be the right thing - indeed, some who are doing wrong believe this as well - and some are doing evil.

I suggest you do a little research on the neo-con's favorite philosopher Leo Strauss and his "noble lie" ideal...

http://www.logosjournal.com/issue_3.2/mason.htm

Quote
The end result is conscription, and in my opinion that is not morally or qualitatively superior to allowing recruiters access to government schools.

you mean the elite's children may have to fight?

wow, what a noble idea...
Title: MOVED: Free markets and philosophies ending in ism
Post by: JonM on March 24, 2005, 06:07:29 pm
All that other stuff has been moved to On The Commons (http://forum.freestateproject.org/index.php?board=46).

http://forum.freestateproject.org/index.php?topic=9617.0
Title: Re: Just joined the forums...
Post by: akamhale on March 28, 2005, 07:31:31 pm
You have got to be kidding me.  In WWII When Japan bombed Pearl Harbor, do you think they were just coming over for a cup of tea?  If we did nothing and had no military what do you think would have happened next?  Do you think they would have just left and gone back to Japan? Of course not!!  Other countries hate us because of the freedoms that we have.  Yes, our country is flawed!  Our government is too big!  Our taxes are too high!  We are over-regulated!  Maybe we should not be policing the rest of the world with our military.  But I would still rather live here in the USA than any other country in the world.  If the USA is too horrible for you Green, maybe you should check out citizenship in another country.  I believe Canada has no military.  How can you fault our miltary personnel for what they do?  Many join the military as young men and women and they do what their country asks of them.  That is a noble thing.  They go where they are ordered to go and do what their country asks them to do regardless of their own feelings on the matter.   I agree with the bumper sticker.  Support the troops regardless of where or what their mission is.  It is not their fault where they are sent.  And I correspond with many men and women in the military and have yet to meet any who have low morale or are not gung-ho about their mission.  The Iraqis they meet are happy and grateful that we are there and have liberated them.  Why do we have to be a bunch of selfish bastards and keep the freedom to ourselves?  Most of the terrorists that are shooting up or guys are not even from Iraq - they are from Jordan, Iran, Syria and other surrounding countries.  They are afraid of Iraq being a free country because freedom is a huge threat to terrorists so they are fighting for their very survival. They do not want IRaq to be free.  And thousands of Americans have not died - it is under 2,000.  That is 2,000 more than it should be - 1 more than it should be to the parents and loved ones of any that we have lost.  I also believe that if we do not go after the terrorists on their own turf and ignore them then they will be over here on our turf.  Is that what you want?  You want them coming over here and blowing up your family?  It is ignorant to think that we do not need a military.  A military is always going to be necessary.  The reason we have not been attacked by other countries since WWII is because other countries have know that if they shoot us, they know we can shoot back.  It is unfortunately a reality of life that we have to live with.  No, I don't like it.  I wish it were not so.  But just because we decide to get rid of our military and stop spending money on defense systems is not going to make the enemies of the USA go away.  That is a pipedream.  So you need to pull your head out of the clouds and get back to reality.
Akamhale (new FSP member who just couldn't stand my and keep my mouth shut anymore)
Title: Re: Just joined the forums...
Post by: Green on March 28, 2005, 07:47:57 pm
You have got to be kidding me.  In WWII When Japan bombed Pearl Harbor, do you think they were just coming over for a cup of tea?  If we did nothing and had no military what do you think would have happened next?  Do you think they would have just left and gone back to Japan? Of course not!!  Other countries hate us because of the freedoms that we have.  Yes, our country is flawed!  Our government is too big!  Our taxes are too high!  We are over-regulated!

No mention of corporate domination of every aspect of our lives?

Quote
Maybe we should not be policing the rest of the world with our military.  But I would still rather live here in the USA than any other country in the world.  If the USA is too horrible for you Green, maybe you should check out citizenship in another country.

To do that would be to admit defeat.  I'm not defeatist.  I believe in fighting to change the country I already live in.

Quote
I believe Canada has no military.  How can you fault our miltary personnel for what they do?  Many join the military as young men and women and they do what their country asks of them.  That is a noble thing.  They go where they are ordered to go and do what their country asks them to do regardless of their own feelings on the matter.   I agree with the bumper sticker.  Support the troops regardless of where or what their mission is.  It is not their fault where they are sent.  And I correspond with many men and women in the military and have yet to meet any who have low morale or are not gung-ho about their mission.  The Iraqis they meet are happy and grateful that we are there and have liberated them.

Which is why our governments own polls indicate that 92% of the Iraqi people want our military to leave immediately.

Quote
Why do we have to be a bunch of selfish bastards and keep the freedom to ourselves?  Most of the terrorists that are shooting up or guys are not even from Iraq - they are from Jordan, Iran, Syria and other surrounding countries.  They are afraid of Iraq being a free country because freedom is a huge threat to terrorists so they are fighting for their very survival. They do not want IRaq to be free.  And thousands of Americans have not died - it is under 2,000.  That is 2,000 more than it should be - 1 more than it should be to the parents and loved ones of any that we have lost.  I also believe that if we do not go after the terrorists on their own turf and ignore them then they will be over here on our turf.  Is that what you want?  You want them coming over here and blowing up your family?  It is ignorant to think that we do not need a military.  A military is always going to be necessary.  The reason we have not been attacked by other countries since WWII is because other countries have know that if they shoot us, they know we can shoot back.  It is unfortunately a reality of life that we have to live with.  No, I don't like it.  I wish it were not so.  But just because we decide to get rid of our military and stop spending money on defense systems is not going to make the enemies of the USA go away.  That is a pipedream.  So you need to pull your head out of the clouds and get back to reality.
Akamhale (new FSP member who just couldn't stand my and keep my mouth shut anymore)

The more time I spend here, the more I get the sense that the pro-war "Libertarians" outnumber the anti-war ones...SAD, folks, SAD.  Where are your principles?   ???


The practice of organized violence is the defining characteristic of any government.  You have absolutely no grounds whatsoever to complain about "big government" if you support war.

I strongly suggest you read these articles-
http://www.lewrockwell.com/gregory/gregory58.html
http://www.lewrockwell.com/gregory/gregory57.html
http://www.lewrockwell.com/rockwell/war-revisionism.html
Title: Re: Just joined the forums...
Post by: Green on March 28, 2005, 07:49:03 pm
(http://thewhitebreads.net/iraqvisit1.jpg)
Title: Re: Just joined the forums...
Post by: FTL_Ian on March 28, 2005, 09:04:09 pm
Akam,

    Welcome to the Forum.  That said, allow me to rebut:

You have got to be kidding me.  In WWII When Japan bombed Pearl Harbor, do you think they were just coming over for a cup of tea?
They were retailiating against our blockade, and us attacking and sinking one of their submarines.

Quote
If we did nothing and had no military what do you think would have happened next?  Do you think they would have just left and gone back to Japan? Of course not!!
We were attacked because we did something to them first!

Quote
  Other countries hate us because of the freedoms that we have.
Incorrect.  To be more precise, people in other countries hate us because of what our government does to them.  Our government sticks its nose in their business, takes sides, and kills innocent people.

Quote
Yes, our country is flawed!  Our government is too big!  Our taxes are too high!  We are over-regulated!  Maybe we should not be policing the rest of the world with our military.
Agreed, though I would say we DEFINITELY should not police the rest of the world.

Quote
How can you fault our miltary personnel for what they do?
It is the fault of each individual who chooses to follow bad orders.

Quote
Many join the military as young men and women and they do what their country asks of them.  That is a noble thing.
The nobility aspect is nothing more than a PR cover for people joining the military and taking orders from old men in Washington.  If they actually did what I wanted them to, they'd be home right now doing something productive.

Quote
  They go where they are ordered to go and do what their country asks them to do regardless of their own feelings on the matter.   I agree with the bumper sticker.  Support the troops regardless of where or what their mission is.  It is not their fault where they are sent. 
Sure it's their fault.  They *could* say no.  Some have, and have been court martialed for it.  Now that's noble.

Quote
And I correspond with many men and women in the military and have yet to meet any who have low morale or are not gung-ho about their mission.  The Iraqis they meet are happy and grateful that we are there and have liberated them. 
You're spreading pure propaganda.  Everyone in the military have different feelings about their situation.

Quote
Why do we have to be a bunch of selfish bastards and keep the freedom to ourselves?
You're really a FSP member?  I would expect you would realize that freedom is available to all those who wish to have it, and it cannot be forced on people.

Quote
  Most of the terrorists that are shooting up or guys are not even from Iraq - they are from Jordan, Iran, Syria and other surrounding countries.  They are afraid of Iraq being a free country because freedom is a huge threat to terrorists so they are fighting for their very survival.
Clearly you've interviewed them all, and aren't just pulling that from your ass.  Perhaps they just want to kill some Americans because we did something they didn't like sometime in the past.

Quote
I also believe that if we do not go after the terrorists on their own turf and ignore them then they will be over here on our turf.  Is that what you want?  You want them coming over here and blowing up your family? 
What is stopping them from doing that right now?  The more people we kill over there, the more we meddle, the more terrorists we CREATE.

Quote
It is ignorant to think that we do not need a military.  A military is always going to be necessary.  The reason we have not been attacked by other countries since WWII is because other countries have know that if they shoot us, they know we can shoot back.
We'd shoot back even without a military, because we have the right to bear arms.

Quote
But just because we decide to get rid of our military and stop spending money on defense systems is not going to make the enemies of the USA go away.  That is a pipedream.  So you need to pull your head out of the clouds and get back to reality.

While I would like to see the military disappear, I agree that it is indeed a fantasy.  Would you agree that if we brought them all home, we'd be quite a bit safer?

Regards,
Ian
Title: Re: Just joined the forums...
Post by: Green on March 29, 2005, 12:58:43 am
THANK YOU IAN!!   :)

I was too lazy to go through and rebut his rant, though it clearly shows a misguided conservative & nationalist dogmatism.
Title: Re: Just joined the forums...
Post by: KBCraig on March 29, 2005, 02:38:36 am
You have got to be kidding me.  In WWII When Japan bombed Pearl Harbor, do you think they were just coming over for a cup of tea?  If we did nothing and had no military what do you think would have happened next?  Do you think they would have just left and gone back to Japan? Of course not!!  Other countries hate us because of the freedoms that we have.  Yes, our country is flawed!  Our government is too big!  Our taxes are too high!  We are over-regulated!

No mention of corporate domination of every aspect of our lives?

"Obsession with corporations in every aspect of your life" != "corporate domination of every aspect of our lives"

Really. This is just silly. My 14 year-old son and I took our dogs for a walk, had a nice conversation, and never once had to bow down to a corporation, nor ponder the risks of not toeing the corporate line. Later, we had our nightly family game of Scrabble; perhaps you think that somehow means that Parker Bros. is running my life.

The next morning being Easter, I spent private time in prayer and devotion, pondering the wonderfullness of the Grace that causes Christians to celebrate that holiday. Zondervan Publishing didn't hover nearby to make sure I did things the way they thought I should.

I believe that "corporate dominance" dominates your life. It seems to be your raison d'etre. Your personal obsession does not translate to to universal servitude. While I respect your opinions, were you someone close to me, I'd remind you steadily to get a real life.

Regards,

Kevin
Title: Re: Just joined the forums...
Post by: LeopardPM on May 16, 2005, 12:41:31 am
Count me as another anti-war libertarian, or anarchist, or whatever.

The state always maintains and perpetrates the myth that the reason that the state itself is necessary is to protect us from other states.  As a 'non-state' we become a 'non-threat' to everyone.  As complete free traders, we individually build bonds and bridges with the hearts and minds of the citizens of other countries.  Invasion will become much less of a threat than it is now.

Recall our troops.  Recall our ambassadors. Apologize to the world for the things our government has done on our behalf and explain to them that we will not be doing anything like that again: invading, protecting, coercing, bribing, funding, or otherwise influencing the governments in other countries.  Explain that when each of us or groups of us take action it is not a reflection on the geographical 'nation' as a whole, it is merely independent action and they are responsible for any repricussions.  This means we will not be protecting multi-national corporate interests in other countries.  Also mention that we will be defaulting on the entirty of the dollar and will be practicing free market money systems - that should throw everyone for a gigantic loop.

just wanting to stir things up a bit so that the cream can more easily rise to the top,
michael
Title: Re: Just joined the forums...
Post by: Dreepa on May 16, 2005, 01:50:34 am
Green I will say it again---- why don't you spend more time 'fighting the man'?
Why spend some much time on this forum?

KB you forgot that Dell is forcing thoughts in your head because of the keyboard you are typing. ;)
Title: Re: Just joined the forums...
Post by: KBCraig on May 16, 2005, 02:30:16 am
KB you forgot that Dell is forcing thoughts in your head because of the keyboard you are typing. ;)

Do you mean the Logitech keyboard connected to my MS-free Macintosh?  :)

Don't just Think Different. Be Different. :)

Kevin
Title: Re: Just joined the forums...
Post by: tbratton on May 16, 2005, 06:58:15 pm
Many Americans, including my self, think that this administration orchestrated the 9/11 attacks and fixed evidence to gain support for war with Iraq.  I think changes in the middle east are long overdue.  How these changes come about seems to me to be a horrible and dispicable reality. 
Title: Re: Just joined the forums...
Post by: KBCraig on May 17, 2005, 12:55:41 am
Many Americans, including my self, think that this administration orchestrated the 9/11 attacks . . .

I keep forgetting... is it shiny side in, or out?

Kevin
Title: Re: Just joined the forums...
Post by: tbratton on May 17, 2005, 01:19:16 pm
I don't think we have enough "Shiny" to cover a full "side"