Free State Project Forum

New Hampshire -- The "Live Free or Die" State => Education/ Homeschooling => Topic started by: bookish_lass on July 26, 2004, 07:48:53 am

Title: Great reply to the 'socialization' issue
Post by: bookish_lass on July 26, 2004, 07:48:53 am
OMG, this is the best one I've heard yet:

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The primary advantage of socialist education, we are told, is socialization. The ability to sniff the behinds of those around you, and ascertain your position in the pack, your place in the pecking order.

http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig5/smedley1.html

Kat, sick of having the socialization issue thrown in my face.
Title: Re:Great reply to the 'socialization' issue
Post by: kater on July 26, 2004, 08:21:30 am
Thanks for posting that Kat.  I plan to homeschool (and I plan to have kids ;) ) and it's nice to be reminded sometimes of the importance of NOT handing your children over to people you don't even trust with your money.
Title: Re:Great reply to the 'socialization' issue
Post by: SteveA on July 26, 2004, 09:24:17 am
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...Imagine a commodity of so little value that you can't even give it away; recipients must be forced to partake...

:)

Thanks for the link
Title: Re:Great reply to the 'socialization' issue
Post by: Dawn on July 27, 2004, 09:56:27 pm
Thanks for the great article! The "S" word can really get to you after a while. I don't hear it as much now as I did 6 years ago, but I'm still amazed that people really think that this is an issue!

The funniest response (meant as a JOKE only) goes something like this:

Sure, I want my kids to have the same socialization as the kids in the government school. So, once a week, I take my kid into the bathroom, beat them up and steal their lunch money.

Is that the kind of socialization "they" think our poor homeschooled kids are missing out on? Most homeschoolers I know are like me - on the go, go, go! Involving our kids with many different people and situations. They learn to be comfortable in many different situations and can, generally speaking, even speak to adults in an intelligible fashion, a skill they might actually need when they want to enter the job force.

Title: Re:Great reply to the 'socialization' issue
Post by: Tracy Saboe on July 28, 2004, 12:07:23 am
I think the best responce is the non sarcastic one.

That homeschoolers typically are more socialized. They have experiences and interactions with people of all different age groups instead of just one.

Tracy
Title: Re:Great reply to the 'socialization' issue
Post by: Eddie Willers on July 31, 2004, 07:09:39 pm
Actually, I'd have to disagree with the main thread, here.

I think it's VERY important for my children to get their manner training from other kids of the 7-10 age range.

Further, it's also necessary for them to get the rules of justice and compassion from preschoolers!

Let's get with the program, we ALL KNOW that the best way for kids to learn these things is from OTHER KIDS!

Eddie
Title: Re:Great reply to the 'socialization' issue
Post by: 5thconcerto on July 31, 2004, 07:26:21 pm
Eddie,
I have to disagree with you. I don't ever learning to respect others from my peers, (as I grew up). I learned that from my parents.
Title: Re:Great reply to the 'socialization' issue
Post by: bookish_lass on July 31, 2004, 07:47:05 pm
I suspect Eddie's post was a wee bit heavy on the sarcasm.
Title: Re:Great reply to the 'socialization' issue
Post by: 5thconcerto on July 31, 2004, 07:52:53 pm
I suspect Eddie's post was a wee bit heavy on the sarcasm.

I can't believe I missed that. DUHHHHHH  "strikes himself severely about the head"
Title: Re:Great reply to the 'socialization' issue
Post by: blaked on August 23, 2004, 04:07:01 am
Is there standardized testing available for a wide variety of subjects that homeschoolers can use in order to pace their childrens' academic growth?
Title: Re:Great reply to the 'socialization' issue
Post by: thewaka on September 01, 2004, 04:17:16 pm
Is there standardized testing available for a wide variety of subjects that homeschoolers can use in order to pace their childrens' academic growth?

Yes.

Diana
Title: Re:Great reply to the 'socialization' issue
Post by: smartguy on September 08, 2004, 05:04:34 am
The socialization issue is the main reason I disagree with homeschooling.  The responses in this thread thus far are borderline idiotic.  A homeshooled child has more socialization, you say.  Nonsense.  Socialization isn't about being amongst children the same age.  It's about communication, it's about real life situations, it's about LIFE.  Being locked down at home with no one to talk to but hobbit-like parents is not socialization.  I'm sorry to burst bubbles here, but someone needs to speak up and make sense.  That's me.  I find this homeschooling issue in your forums one in which if you keep repeating your nonsense, soon you all believe it.  Wake up.  Let your kids experience life!
Title: Re:Great reply to the 'socialization' issue
Post by: vtr on September 08, 2004, 06:00:06 am
Smart,
Have you ever met any homeschooled kids? If not you should. The ones that I have met over the years are generally way more socially advanced then average for their age.

I risk melding threads here, but I have a hard time imagining a homeschooled kid riding around in a car on blasting a 3000watt stereo. Just my take.

Best Ken

Title: Re:Great reply to the 'socialization' issue
Post by: bookish_lass on September 08, 2004, 06:01:07 am
smartguy,

You are mistaken in your belief that we lock our children up in isolation all day.  The homeschoolers I know attend classes with other homeschoolers, are very active in clubs etc., volunteer in the community, play with children in their neighborhoods.  The difference is that they spend a greater proportion of their time with adults who set a better example for behavior than other children do.  They are also not forced to be locked down with abusive children for 8 hours a day.

Kat
Title: Re:Great reply to the 'socialization' issue
Post by: SteveA on September 08, 2004, 06:59:54 am
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Wake up.  Let your kids experience life!

I'm not homeschooling my children but if they were homeschooled, they'd have no lack of associations with other children.  They have cousins that stay over regularly and children in the neighborhood to play with.

I don't believe public schools are exactly "experiencing life".  When the kids are outside, half the time they're formed up into lines and go through the same routine daily.  In the classroom they have assigned seats and have to ask permission to go to the restroom.  If I wanted my children to join the military later then, yes, maybe public schools are a good way to start out but for just growing up and experiencing life, they can do that fine without needing a public school to show them how.
Title: Re:Great reply to the 'socialization' issue
Post by: antayla on September 08, 2004, 01:34:50 pm
Let your kids experience life!

Um, I am experiencing life?
Uh oh, the homeschoolled underground speaks.  There must a be a conspiracy somewhere!  Quick, round up all the kids and put them in camps for 6 hours a day before the HU gets them!!!

Actually, the irony is that I DO fit that description of "child locked away from society" and I'm STILL ok.  I hope *quickly examines self for signs of anti-social behavior, maybe leprosy or something* ... I think...
Title: Re:Great reply to the 'socialization' issue
Post by: thewaka on September 08, 2004, 07:54:28 pm
Socialization isn't about being amongst children the same age.  It's about communication, it's about real life situations, it's about LIFE.

But state schooling *is* about being age segregated and *not* about those other things you said socialization is. You made our argument. :)

Diana
Title: Re:Great reply to the 'socialization' issue
Post by: smartguy on September 10, 2004, 03:19:33 am
of course state schooling is about age segregation, as it should be.  Age segregation allows for 6 year old to be learning how to spell and 16 year olds learning the periodic table of elements.  Age segregation makes perfect sense.  It prevents younger kids from being overwhelmed and older kids from wasting time.  Furthermore, age grouping breeds competition.  This world, my friends, is about competition.  I find that many who support home schooling do so simply to do something different, rather than doing something better.  State schooling has structure and education needs structure.  You parents who think you can teach your kids what they need to know are sorely mistaken.  

Now go lock your kids in that room so they can get their work done.
Title: Re:Great reply to the 'socialization' issue
Post by: vtr on September 10, 2004, 05:54:19 am
Would you care to trot out some national student performance statistics to prove your point?  I'm sure we would all be interested.
Title: Re:Great reply to the 'socialization' issue
Post by: thewaka on September 10, 2004, 09:26:13 am
of course state schooling is about age segregation, as it should be.  Age segregation allows for 6 year old to be learning how to spell and 16 year olds learning the periodic table of elements.  Age segregation makes perfect sense.  It prevents younger kids from being overwhelmed and older kids from wasting time.

Do you think the one-room schoolhouses turned out poorly educated children compared to today?! Did you know there are still some today? And HSing allows 6 year olds to learn the periodic table should they so desire whereas your age segregation treats each one the same, slowing the learning for some, making it too difficult for others. I know; I was there; I hated school despite usually being the best student in my classes. I learned more and more interesting things on my own at the library.

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Now go lock your kids in that room so they can get their work done.
You mean lock them in the state schools? No, thank you.

I think the arguments for state schooling for educational purposes laughable. Even my ILs who don't agree with HSing have *never* said it was b/c they didn't think I could teach my children well enough. It only has to do with "socialization" and "they will miss out on things." Most of those things are what DH and I want them to miss.

Diana
Title: Re:Great reply to the 'socialization' issue
Post by: Simon Jester on September 10, 2004, 11:06:42 pm
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Age segregation allows for 6 year old to be learning how to spell and 16 year olds learning the periodic table of elements.  Age segregation makes perfect sense.  It prevents younger kids from being overwhelmed and older kids from wasting time.

If age segregation is such a great thing, then why don't we start off at birth? Babies 1 mo. should only see babies 1 month, 1 year olds should only see other one year olds, two year olds should only see other two year olds, except for the nursery attendent/teacher who will of course instruct them so that they live up to where the developmental charts say they should be and for the few hours they get to spend with mom and dad during the mornings and evenings.
Why wait til they're five if it's so great?
Then none of them will ever have to be overwhelmed by the fact that a lot people can walk, talk, or even sit up and no older kid will have to waste time having anything to do with them.
No, sorry, but it doesn't make perfect since. What everyone gets in school is more like stunted socialization.
Title: Re:Great reply to the 'socialization' issue
Post by: SteveA on September 11, 2004, 12:36:00 am
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If age segregation is such a great thing, then why don't we start off at birth? Babies 1 mo. should only see babies 1 month, 1 year olds should only see other one year olds, two year olds should only see other two year olds, except for the nursery attendent/teacher who will of course instruct them so that they live up to where the developmental charts say they should be and for the few hours they get to spend with mom and dad during the mornings and evenings.

Interesting point.  I tended to hang out with adults more than children my age when I was young - could be I'm truly warped because of it but it's not obvious to me that it did any real damage.  Actually the "kids my own age" were the ones that got me into trouble and I'd say the adults gave me a good education and perspective on things.
Title: Re:Great reply to the 'socialization' issue
Post by: smartguy on September 13, 2004, 03:40:17 am
Geist asks why age segregation doesn't start out a 1 month...That's ironic in the sense that those who are for homeschooling spew ideals and ethical arguments about the children being home with family but now Geist is suggesting the children be "schooled" beginning at 1 mo.  This makes no sense.  
Thewaka points out that grouping children allows a 6 yr old to study a subject "if they wish".  That's the point and the problem with homeschooling....there is no structure.  It's not about what the child wishes.  There are fundamental, traditional educational progressions (think stagepoints) to learning.  
Sure, a homeschooled child will make it in the world, I'm not suggesting they won't.  They will not have a structured learning environment though, which means they are missing pieces of the puzzle, which means they'll have trouble with problem solving.  
Homeschooled children miss out (here's the lack of socialization) on organized sports, clubs, band or chorus, honor societies, etc.  Why would a parent want to deprive their children of these opportunities.  That's the problem with homeschooling...it squashes a child's opportunities.  LET THE KIDS BE KIDS!  Parents in favor of homeschooling were either picked on in school and are deathly afraid the same will happen to their children or they are simply bored at home and should find a hobby or a job.  
How many times have we heard that high school was the best years of our lives?  I've heard the jingle several times.  Most of us work full time now.  In retrospect, high school probably was the best time of our life.  Again I ask, why deprive the children of this.  Surely there are tons of opportunities for trouble in a public school, but I'm sure we all agree that good parenting is the best defense against this type of problem.
Title: Re:Great reply to the 'socialization' issue
Post by: 5thconcerto on September 13, 2004, 10:41:10 am
A friend of mine Home-Schooled her two daughters once they got into high school, because of the 1) rampant drug culture, 2) cliques that placed enormous peer pressure on fellow members.
my 2 cents worth
Title: Re:Great reply to the 'socialization' issue
Post by: JasonPSorens on September 13, 2004, 12:24:42 pm
Homeschooled children miss out (here's the lack of socialization) on organized sports, clubs, band or chorus, honor societies, etc.  

No, they don't.  Have you heard of homeschooling associations?
Title: Re:Great reply to the 'socialization' issue
Post by: BlueLu on September 13, 2004, 12:37:48 pm
Geist asks why age segregation doesn't start out a 1 month...That's ironic in the sense that those who are for homeschooling spew ideals and ethical arguments about the children being home with family but now Geist is suggesting the children be "schooled" beginning at 1 mo.  This makes no sense.  

She was following the logic of age-segregation to its absurd end, and trusting that the reader will agree that it is absurd.  I agree.
Title: Re:Great reply to the 'socialization' issue
Post by: "Hagrid" on September 13, 2004, 12:43:05 pm
Homeschooled children miss out (here's the lack of socialization) on organized sports, clubs, band or chorus, honor societies, etc.  

No, they don't.  Have you heard of homeschooling associations?

Additionally, in New Hampshire, all children, regardless of homeschooling, have the right to use public school facilities (since taxes pay for them anyway)... according to at least one homeschooler there I've met, this means that so called 'socialization' issues are pretty much nulled out, if you want to take advantage of them...  

Interestingly, the child in question found when taking classes, they were far more advanced and mature and literate/competant than their age peers.... so perhaps the socialization issue is in fact reverse:
school "socialization" harms most children's development.

Title: Re:Great reply to the 'socialization' issue
Post by: BlueLu on September 13, 2004, 12:43:10 pm
Homeschooled children miss out (here's the lack of socialization) on organized sports, clubs, band or chorus, honor societies, etc.  

No, they don't.  Have you heard of homeschooling associations?

Also, there are many cases where the local school will let homeschooled children come just for band/glee club/athletics/etc.  Whether this is permitted usually has to do with whether the school can get additional funds for the time the child is on campus, which in many states and school districts, is possible.  
Title: Re:Great reply to the 'socialization' issue
Post by: jgmaynard on September 13, 2004, 03:16:34 pm
Additionally, in New Hampshire, all children, regardless of homeschooling, have the right to use public school facilities (since taxes pay for them anyway)...

Yup. It's true. I know a homeschooled teen who takes just art classes at Keene High.

JM
Title: Re:Great reply to the 'socialization' issue
Post by: Simon Jester on September 13, 2004, 05:57:42 pm
Although BlueLu already cleared things up, I figured I'd step in and clear things up:
I meant to point out in my post the folly of saying that age segregation is best because if it were best, then it would be best for all ages and not just people between the ages of 4/5-18. It seems to be more the case that age segregation is the best...not for the children but for the teachers.

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Homeschooled children miss out (here's the lack of socialization) on organized sports, clubs, band or chorus, honor societies, etc.
I was in several of these organizations and, well, let's just say I doubt I would have missed them had I not been. Most of them have very little to do with actual socialization and more to do with resume padding,  the honor societies moreso than the others. In high school, you want to maximize the number of organizations you're in so it looks like you're a real "go-getter." Sorry to sound cynical, but that's the way it was at my school and everyone knew it. I'm sure some meant it but the most of us just wanted the honor chord and the resume line.
Title: Re:Great reply to the 'socialization' issue
Post by: smartguy on September 14, 2004, 02:25:43 am
it is entertaining to see that no one addressed the real point I was making.  That is *Let the kids be kids*.  Instead, all replies were as expected.  Parents who would prefer to micromanage, overprotect, shelter, and deprive their children of the fun, experience, and real world education that public schools provide.  
Yes, homeschooled children are eligible to participate in these extra-curriculars, but let's face it, less than 10% actually do.  It's these experiences and lessons-learned that are some of the most valuable items taken from schooling.  Home schooled kids, again, get none of it.
They don't learn how to handle friendship, trust, broken friendship and trusts, young romance, favoritism....the list is endless.  These are all important lessons learned that aren't necessarily in a curriculum.  They're also just part of growing up, being a kid.  
Instead, homeschooled children learn that mom and dad love them and are glad that they're home setting the table or mowing the lawn or washing dishes rather than "wasting their time" with friends or extra-curricular activities.
Title: Re:Great reply to the 'socialization' issue
Post by: SteveA on September 14, 2004, 06:18:50 am
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it is entertaining to see that no one addressed the real point I was making.  That is *Let the kids be kids*.  Instead, all replies were as expected.  Parents who would prefer to micromanage, overprotect, shelter, and deprive their children of the fun, experience, and real world education that public schools provide.  

I must admit I don't see how sending children to a schoolroom for 6 hours a day lets "kids be kids".  I a child is an only child and they don't regularly other children outside the home then this might be more of an issue but I'm sure most children have friends, cousins, relatives, church groups or other people to interact with.

Kids don't really have a wide variety of experiences in school.  Elementary schools use a single classroom and most the time the children are just passively sitting at a desk listening to the teacher and not interacting in a social environment.  Likely a lot of why homeschooled children do well later is because they experience more social interaction when they aren't just one of 30 children with a single adult who doesn't even know them very well.  Some parents would teach better than others or provide more interaction with their children but it's quite easy to imagine children actually learn better social skills in an environment with more feedback and individual attention.  No, a homeschooled child won't have as much experience about working with 29 other kids their age but then again a child in a public school doesn't gain the experiences a homeschooled child does.  I'd guess most parents that choose to homeschool their children are willing to invest energy in it and it's not that hard to even have "fieldtrips" to a museum, library or zoo etc.  Maybe learning how to deal with a school bully or play team sports are beneficial experiences but I think having most children come out from a cookie cutter shaped public education isn't very beneficial to our nation because it creates fewer original points of view and doesn't allow children the flexibility to learn things they are most interested in.  What a child enjoys learning something they can excel very rapidly, whereas public schools don't provide much flexibility in that respect.  I know my most valuable skills came from reading 25 cent used books from a thift store when I was a kid, and a father who was also fascinated with technology.  Neither of those school provided and in public schools there was little of anything to learn that I hadn't already learned on my own.  If I had spent more time in public schools I would have learned less ... most of what I learned was outside school.  Your mileage may vary though but I think the most important thing for children is finding things they enjoy learning and schools don't work that way.  It's curriculumn and if you excel in some areas but not others, you'll possibly get stuck repeating a year instead of moving ahead in areas that you may do well in.

Quote
They don't learn how to handle friendship, trust, broken friendship and trusts, young romance, favoritism....the list is endless.

I'd disagree again.  If a family lived on a farm and rarely visited anyone a child wouldn't gain as much of these experiences outside the home but in most any urban setting these are all inevitable.  Yes, children learn more when there's a variety of novel experiences but that's entirely possible homeschooling too.  In fact, children could easily get a much wider range of experiences being homeschooled if their parents regularly take them out to see new things.  It depends a lot on the parents.
Title: Re:Great reply to the 'socialization' issue
Post by: JasonPSorens on September 14, 2004, 08:04:43 am
Yes, homeschooled children are eligible to participate in these extra-curriculars, but let's face it, less than 10% actually do.

Whew, I'm glad someone knows the real statistics here.  ::) I'm sure that comes straight from a published study, right?

 
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They don't learn how to handle friendship, trust, broken friendship and trusts, young romance, favoritism....the list is endless.  These are all important lessons learned that aren't necessarily in a curriculum.  They're also just part of growing up, being a kid.  

I'm beginning to suspect you're a public school teacher or someone else with a vested interest in spreading ignorance.  My cousins were homeschooled all the way through high school, and they had more friends and activities going on than I ever did (I attended a private high school).  Many of these friends were in the same homeschooling association; many others were in the same church; some were simply neighborhood kids.

You're flat-out wrong.
Title: Re:Great reply to the 'socialization' issue
Post by: jeanius on September 14, 2004, 11:33:27 am
I do smell a troll but ...

First of all there different approaches to homeschooling.  Some are strictly classical with something like three to four hours of seat time with math, history, grammar, etc.  Some are more relaxed or child-led where a rich learning environment is provided and the child explores that at his/her pace.  

Secondly, there are different approaches to parenting.  Some are very strict with education time and serious chore time with some play time thrown in.  Others have education time, reasonable chore time and play time.  I think your objections are more with the parenting issues.  Even a schooled kid can be required to come home and mow the lawn and do twenty other tasks before dinner and homework.  :)

I am a homeschooling parent.  I have an eclectic style.  We use classical materials and do about two hours of seat time sometimes broken up during the day.  Outside that my kids have reading and other assignments that they are expected to complete.  My kids have chores they must do every day.  But even with that my kids have *several* hours of play time.  My daughter has Girl Scouts and dance class.  My son has Boy Scouts, karate and Little League when it's in season.  Piano lessons too.  We meet with other homeschooling families once a week for social and play time.  We have at least one other play date a week with other non-homeschooled friends.

Homeschooling is a great way to deal with the age issues you raise.  In fact, age is not the issue but ability.  My daughter was reading and in kindergarten (at a private school) at four.  The public schools would not have let her start at that age.  But she *was* ready.  Homeschooling allows me the flexibility of providing the content they are ready for based on their readiness not something as arbitrary as their age.  

Learning social skills from a wide variety of ages is considerably better.  The old "of course I want my three year old to learn table manners from other three year olds" saying holds.  Yuk.

Jean
Title: Re:Great reply to the 'socialization' issue
Post by: thewaka on September 15, 2004, 01:46:12 pm
Geist asks why age segregation doesn't start out a 1 month...[...]This makes no sense.  

I find it interesting that you do not understand an argument ad absurdum ("An argument whereby one seeks to prove one’s position by pointing out the absurdity or foolishness of an opponent’s position. Also, an argument carried to such lengths that it becomes silly or ridiculous. From Latin, meaning “to absurdity.”").

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Thewaka points out that grouping children allows a 6 yr old to study a subject "if they wish".  That's the point and the problem with homeschooling....there is no structure.  It's not about what the child wishes.  There are fundamental, traditional educational progressions (think stagepoints) to learning.

Or so you think. Just because a HSed 6 y.o. is learning the periodic table doesn't mean he isn't learning other "age appropriate" things. There can be structure without knowing years in advance the exact date when the teaching of long division will begin. Also, can you tell us how long these "stagepoints" have been tradition and in what settings?

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Parents in favor of homeschooling were either picked on in school and are deathly afraid the same will happen to their children or they are simply bored at home and should find a hobby or a job.  

This statement is absurd. I suggest you learn how to do research, *do it*, then return with decent arguments. This might be a great deal more interesting then.

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Surely there are tons of opportunities for trouble in a public school, but I'm sure we all agree that good parenting is the best defense against this type of problem.

And I believe choosing HSing *is* good parenting for dealing with these problems.

Diana
Title: Re:Great reply to the 'socialization' issue
Post by: mvpel on September 17, 2004, 11:44:51 am
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No, a homeschooled child won't have as much experience about working with 29 other kids their age...

And as we all know, dealing with 29 other people who were all born in the same year we were is something that will serve us well as we move into our professional lives, right?
Title: Re:Great reply to the 'socialization' issue
Post by: caroline on November 12, 2004, 12:33:12 am
I have never heard of any stories of home-schooled youngsters being "behind" in any way, so I think the arguments against it are simply designed to prolong the discussion. I chose to be home-schooled for 2 consecutive years in middle school, and my schedule was busier than it has been at any other time in my life so far. It gave me the perspectives and courage to do a lot of things that many of my mainstream school friends wouldn't have dreamed of, and all one has to do is look at the article by John Taylor Gatto to be reminded of the value of home-schooling.
Title: Re:Great reply to the 'socialization' issue
Post by: Kelton on December 10, 2004, 02:27:30 am



I will believe that children should learn in
classes of 20 the same age when mothers start
whelping litters about that size. School is for
fish; we are a higher species.

                                   --Lehi Sellers (homeschooling activist)
Title: Re:Great reply to the 'socialization' issue
Post by: CoalitionNH on December 27, 2004, 02:01:22 pm
I taught for 35 years in a public school and I would recommend homeschooling for many reasons, one of the most important being the 'socialization' issue.

Why subject your kids to the abuses of freedom that go on in the public schools, many of which are due to the system succumbing to political correctness and lack of academic freedom for teachers?

In general I have noticed that most homeschooled kids are more well-rounded intellectually and have not been 'deprived' of anything.

It's all about academic freedom which you do not get in the public schools. This was a subject discussed during one of our recent  radio shows...and something I am very passionate about.

-J
Title: Re: Great reply to the 'socialization' issue
Post by: jenn_dorsett on January 09, 2005, 07:50:23 pm
I just want to say one thing... I WISH I had been home-schooled.  I wasted 12 years of my most academically curious years waiting for the rest of the class to finish their tests, and asking for the directions which were printed right there at the top of the paper..  After a while though, I just stopped listening.  I stopped wanting to learn, becuase all they "taught" me was crap...useless crap.  I feel roobed, and wish I still had the attention-span I had before I went into the public school system, maybe then I could play catch-up at 20 years of age.  Also, and I don't want to offend anyone "slower" (really, no offense) but they should not have to have a reading class in high school.  It's ridiculous.

thank you for listening
-Jenn
Title: Re:Great reply to the 'socialization' issue
Post by: Roycerson on January 09, 2005, 08:52:13 pm
it is entertaining to see that no one addressed the real point I was making.  That is *Let the kids be kids*.  Instead, all replies were as expected.  Parents who would prefer to micromanage, overprotect, shelter, and deprive their children of the fun, experience, and real world education that public schools provide.  
Yes, homeschooled children are eligible to participate in these extra-curriculars, but let's face it, less than 10% actually do.  It's these experiences and lessons-learned that are some of the most valuable items taken from schooling.  Home schooled kids, again, get none of it.
They don't learn how to handle friendship, trust, broken friendship and trusts, young romance, favoritism....the list is endless.  These are all important lessons learned that aren't necessarily in a curriculum.  They're also just part of growing up, being a kid.  
Instead, homeschooled children learn that mom and dad love them and are glad that they're home setting the table or mowing the lawn or washing dishes rather than "wasting their time" with friends or extra-curricular activities.


Some home schooled kids might be fairly isolated.  I have 7 home schooled cousins who were VERY isolated.  However, most homeschooled kids I know are active in church youth groups and such programs.  How are you going to go and say something like "home schooled kids, again, get none of it."  It makes me think that your first sentence is probably equally as unreliable as your third.  I will dismiss most of what you say as unreliable until I see otherwise.
Title: Re: Great reply to the 'socialization' issue
Post by: sj on February 11, 2007, 01:19:35 am
Smartguy's post was completely ridiculous and showed us once again the amount of ignorance that abounds about homeschooling.


"It's about communication, it's about real life situations, it's about LIFE." --

And you define life as staring at a chalk board all day?  Home schooling is more like LIFE because WE as the students direct our own education instead of being force-fed.  WE as the students take responsibility for what we learn and how fast we learn it.  We interact with people of ALL AGES instead of one age group and learn about things hands on.  I learned about medical science by going to hospital equipment fairs with my friend's dad...I learned about everything HANDS ON.

Now, of course home schooling isn't for everyone, but I don't see a reason to denigrate it.

"Being locked down at home with no one to talk to but hobbit-like parents is not socialization." --

WE ARE NOT AT HOME all the time...we are experiencing things that public schooled kids couldn't do.  I visited foreign countries (during the school year), raised my own tadpoles, wrote a book, went to college at 16, and learned about life by LIVING life.  I'm afraid some of your beliefs are based on stereotypes.

"I'm sorry to burst bubbles here, but someone needs to speak up and make sense.  That's me.  I find this homeschooling issue in your forums one in which if you keep repeating your nonsense, soon you all believe it.  Wake up.  Let your kids experience life!" --

Could you give me your credentials that allow you to speak with authority on home schooling, please?  I'd love to see them.
Title: Re: Great reply to the 'socialization' issue
Post by: Crocuta on February 11, 2007, 01:15:38 pm
Check out the dates.  You're responding to a three year old troll.  And not your subtle, acting-like-they-belong troll.  More like a little kid who knocks over an anthill with a stick just to watch the poor creatures scurry about.   8)



Title: Re: Great reply to the 'socialization' issue
Post by: mrmoderate on April 10, 2007, 05:03:03 pm
Remember this about homeschooled children and public school children:
All generalizations are false!
Title: Re: Great reply to the 'socialization' issue
Post by: sj on April 11, 2007, 10:02:45 am
Remember this about homeschooled children and public school children:
All generalizations are false!

Does that include the generalization you just made? ;D


There's a difference between facts and generalizations.  It is a fact that all public school children are grouped into their own age groups and made to sit in a chair through the whole day. 

Hey, that works for some people...those peopel should be free to send their children to those schools.  Doesn't work for everyone (we've talked about and agree on this point), but that choice should be made by the parent (we also agree on this).
Title: Re: Great reply to the 'socialization' issue
Post by: ardentangel on May 08, 2007, 03:34:56 pm
Ok, I'll directly reply to 'let kids be kids'

I moved in the summer between sixth and seventh grade. In the new public school the other kids were allowed the freedom 'to be kids' and tormented me daily to the point of hitting me in class because I choose a seat that 'belonged' to another kid. There was no allowing me to be me, but the bullies were always allowed to be themselves and torment anyone they choose to. Let's be very clear, hitting me is trespass. My not being skilled enough to defend myself isn't the issue.

The argument was also made that this is some how more like 'real' life. After four years of the torture, with no one having any skills to see my situation, I choose to remove myself from day school and entered night classes. Never again have I encountered gangs of bullies in any group of real people. The only place this flourishes is in public schools and lower class housing. I would never call either 'the real world' after experiencing both.

Now on to my own homeschooled children.

They are allowed to be kids, without any restrictions. They play and create more than I was ever allowed to in school. Do I protect them? I'm amazed that anyone would argue that I shouldn't. They are children. Any animal baby left alone and unprotected by it's parent(s) quickly becomes some other animals dinner. It is my job to protect them. From the government and people who use irrational arguments as facts if I have to.

As far as what I say to people who question me about 'socialization' I reply that I am not a socialist, I am an American and socialism and freedom don't mix.

By the way, I know some of those homeschool 'hermits,' all six have had the focus to become PhD graduates, with two of them working on their second doctorate. All six of these children tested out of their first two years of college classes. How many public school children have done that this year? If it's a choice between being a socialist and having children who become doctors, I'll take my chances with the doctors.
Title: Re: Great reply to the 'socialization' issue
Post by: sj on May 08, 2007, 04:10:15 pm
Welcome to the forum, ardentangel.  Most of us are definitely with you on the home schooling thing, especially me  ;D.  Let us know if you have any questions about living free in NH.
Title: Re: Great reply to the 'socialization' issue
Post by: sbroadbent on August 06, 2007, 04:11:45 am
I was public schooled, and I feel that I missed out so much not being home schooled.  Unfortunately my mom was a nurse and my dad was a Purolator driver, so I had no opportunity for that.

In Kindergarten and grade 1 (before we moved cities) I had several friends.  After I moved, I was shy and had 1 (read it, ONE) friend from grades 1 through 7 (and he was in the grade BEFORE me).  I had several other "friends", but they were not the one's I socialized with.  In grade 7 that previous friend stopped being my friend, but I replaced him with 1 (yes, only ONE) friend.  That remained the same until probably grade 12 when my circle of friends bloomed.  With that said, I did have one other friend through grades 7 on, but that was met through family as opposed to public school (not to mention he was a year older).

So, here's one public schooler who clearly shows that public school is in no way about socialization.

About the only thing useful that came out of public school was my interest in music... unfortunately music programs aren't getting much support nowadays (atleast here in Canada, don't know what it's like in the states).

I had a major case of shyness in my early years.  Early on, teachers thought I was a quiet and well behaved student.  Later on I was identified as a day-dreamer and unfocused in school.  It was only by about grade 11 or 12 that I got diagnosed having a communication based learning disability.  I was so shy that if I was having problems with an assignment, I'd have done anything other than ask the teacher or someone for help.  In addition, my assignments became so labourous that I either spend way more time on the assignment, or completely give up on it (accepting whatever mark came).  I remember tests where I spent as much time calculating the minimum number of questions I'd need to answer in order to get atleast 50% (anything further was pure gravy) as I would on the test.

The short version of what is above is that unless a teacher is spending several consecutive years with a set of students, by the time they notice something is wrong with one or two of them, they've moved onto the next grade, allowing the student to continue to suffer, never really identifying the problem.  Had my parents (or someone else I was home schooled with) had more time to spend with me through the process, I might've turned out better.

When I have kids, they're not setting foot near the government.
Title: Re: Great reply to the 'socialization' issue
Post by: error on August 08, 2007, 08:28:47 pm
I'd be willing to bet a shiny silver ounce that you weren't born with "a communication based learning disability" but instead learned it in public school. And that you can unlearn it.
Title: Re: Great reply to the 'socialization' issue
Post by: SPITFIRE on September 27, 2007, 12:16:38 am
I am 18 and have been homeschooled since 5th grade, not that we go by grades anymore... :P  Since starting, my interest in Britney Spears' personal life has come to a bitter end and unfortunately I now spend my days chatting with "terrorists" online and being brainwashed by "obviously unintelligent, uncertified and /or incapable" adults.  I was terribly shy until, wow what do you know, 5th grade and only then did I start snowboarding and other activities.  In the past 2 years I HAD to take law, history, literature and journalism college courses on the side as well as take up the guitar and mandoline, tatting, culinary arts, holistics, and aromatherapy, do community service, run 4-h programs, attend peaceful public rallies etc. as well as take over the family business.  .  I couldn't help it, I was getting bored watching my childhood public school friend smoke pot in her basement with 91% of all the other kids in my old class.  Which is when I realized how deprived I was. (like everyone was telling me)  So if anyone could provide any "socialization" tips to this poor HSer I would greatly appreciate it.