Free State Project Forum

FSP -- General Discussion => Prospective Participants => Topic started by: Herbalist on July 14, 2003, 10:54:28 am

Title: Security Concerns
Post by: Herbalist on July 14, 2003, 10:54:28 am
I am so committed to the principles of the Free State Project and am ready to sign up, but my husband has some concerns and I wondered if anybody else has, or if the topic has been given consideration already but I haven't found the thread...

It's just this --

My husband is concerned about the security of FSP individuals from the American Government.  He sees the potential of something like Ruby Ridge or Waco occuring on a much larger scale in the chosen state once the freedom-lovers move there.  He's also concerned about the time leading up to the move - will the government seek the FSP membership list for the purpose of things like singling us out for tax audits, increased personal surveillance, revoking/rejecting handgun permits, etc?  Why wouldn't the government employ hackers for the purpose of seeking that list and using the names on it for their own purposes?

I am interested to know what other list participants think.  Of course the FSP is entirely peaceful, but I'm not so sure the government would see things like that.

H, an earth mother
Title: Re:Security Concerns
Post by: SN Porc on July 14, 2003, 11:20:57 am
I'd put the odds at about 100% that at least one or more government agency already has the list. There's no doubt we are a "subject of interest".

Title: Re:Security Concerns
Post by: Zack Bass on July 14, 2003, 11:28:30 am

My husband is concerned about the security of FSP individuals from the American Government.  He sees the potential of something like Ruby Ridge or Waco occuring on a much larger scale in the chosen state once the freedom-lovers move there.


I can't see the Federal Government as caring much one way or another, as long as we stay far away from the Secession issue.  They'l crush any hint of Secession, since that could lead to a USSR-style meltdown.  Short of that, there's not much they'll care about.
The Feds will still be enforcing their own Laws, like drug trafficking and income tax, and we won't have to pay for that.  We're going to be changing Local & State Laws, which are the source of over 95% of our loss of Freedom.  It's always your Local Cop who oppresses you with seatbelt laws, drug possession laws, gun-carry laws, nudity laws, compulsory education, prostitution laws, etc.  The Feds don't get into all that.  They just take half of your money by what they call Taxation, and that's not gonna change.  But we'll save a lot of money right off the bat by not bothering to Enforce all those State & Local Laws.  Any Federal LAws the Feds want to enforce, that's at their expense; we can't stop them, but we don't have to help them.

Title: Re:Security Concerns
Post by: MajesticLeo on July 14, 2003, 12:31:37 pm
I have to agree with Zack, I can't see where they would care one way or the other.  In fact, they might be somewhat amused, after all here is the whole bunch of people voluntarily selecting their own reservation where it would be easier to keep an eye on them.  

We certainly aren't a direct threat to the Federal Government,  but then neither was anyone on Ruby Ridge or in Waco...............Besides we aren't all going to be living on the Big Ranch on the Plains or in the Hidden Valley of New Hampshire.  I would imagine we are all on enough lists now, just from living that being on one more won't have much impact on our lives.
Title: Re:Security Concerns
Post by: RidleyReport on July 14, 2003, 03:23:17 pm

Herbalist:

We're honored that you're considering signing up.  

You wrote:

<<My husband is concerned about the security of FSP individuals from the American Government.>>

If there is reason to fear your government where you live now, does that make it more or less important to get away to a place where there is already more freedom?  Perhaps to the only place in the world where freedom is likely to increase over the next ten years?

Title: Re:Security Concerns
Post by: Tony on July 14, 2003, 04:06:35 pm
If your name isn't already on a bunch of lists you're not working hard enough.  Have you ever filled out a 4473 (yellow form required to purchase a gun from a dealer), gotten a CC permit/license, signed a pro-liberty petition, made contributions to pro-liberty campaigns, stated you views on the phone, written emails that showed your views, visited pro-liberty discussion boards (like this one), etc.?  If you haven't done a single one of these things you might want to remain anonymous.  If you have done any of these things you have nothing to lose.  And besides, cowardice won't get us anywhere.  Where would we be if the Founding Fathers would've decided not to do anything because the british might kill them?

If you're really concerned about this your best bet is to start hitting the range at least once per week and to buy more ammo and other gear.   Why hide under the bed when you can get ready to bury the enemy, IF (and it's pretty unlikely) they initiate force against you?  The odds of a Waco/Ruby Ridge style scenario are pretty slim, but they might try the inconviencing tactics you suggested.  So what?  We deal with stuff like that all of the time in the states we're in right now.  Isn't a shot at liberty  worth the risk of minor inconviences?


Tony, The Man of Many Lists ;)
Title: Re:Security Concerns
Post by: Zack Bass on July 14, 2003, 04:12:43 pm

If you're really concerned about this your best bet is to start hitting the range at least once per week and to buy more ammo and other gear.   Why hide under the bed when you can get ready to bury the enemy, IF (and it's pretty unlikely) they initiate force against you?


When was the last time that worked?
(Not that I think it's wrong; only futile and counterproductive.)

Title: Re:Security Concerns
Post by: MajesticLeo on July 14, 2003, 04:56:21 pm

If you're really concerned about this your best bet is to start hitting the range at least once per week and to buy more ammo and other gear.   Why hide under the bed when you can get ready to bury the enemy, IF (and it's pretty unlikely) they initiate force against you?



When was the last time that worked?
(Not that I think it's wrong; only futile and counterproductive.)



Well, it can work as a great stress reliever, putting little holes in things with loud noises.  But that is about all I think it accomplishes. ;D
Title: Re:Security Concerns
Post by: Tony on July 14, 2003, 05:26:45 pm
If they're already trying to blow you up you might as well shoot back.  ;)  It worked once to create this nation, but I agree with you that it's probably futile.  That said, I know I'd much rather try to stop them and fail than just sit there like a fat-@$$ sheep while they roast me.  Plus, if we're going to die either way why shouldn't we make sure some of them die too?

I highly doubt that FSP members will be forced into such a situation.  We'll be too large a group scattered over too large of an area.  It's a lot easier to surround one housing facility and kill all the residents than to search throughout an entire state for 20000 people.  This potential member sounds as though she and her husband think that a violent confrontation with the feds is much more likely than I do. I think that the feds are too big of cowards to go after anything more than one family or apartment building sized group.

You have to admit that the statists would be a lot more bold if they didn't have to worry about getting impaled, er I mean impeached, for screwing us over too much too fast.  Armed resistance is suicide against such a vastly superior force--but it beats being the victim of murder.  
Title: Re:Security Concerns
Post by: Herbalist on July 16, 2003, 04:54:10 pm
If your name isn't already on a bunch of lists you're not working hard enough.  Have you ever filled out a 4473 (yellow form required to purchase a gun from a dealer), gotten a CC permit/license, signed a pro-liberty petition, made contributions to pro-liberty campaigns, stated you views on the phone, written emails that showed your views, visited pro-liberty discussion boards (like this one), etc.?  

I sure appreciate the responses!  Tony is right - I've done all of those things, and I can only imagine the number of lists I might already be on.  My husband, having read "Unintended Consequences" too many times, is far more paranoid than I am...

I guess my concerns were more along the lines of being singled out for unreasonably thorough IRS audits, or being denied the next time I purchase a firearm, things like that between now and the time the move begins.  My husband and I are completely law-abiding citizens, but that doesn't stop the IRS from its heavy-handed tactics.

I imagine that once the move takes place and freedom-loving activists are a significant percentage of the population of a state, there will be less threat than there is now for singling out individuals.  I hope.

H, the armed earth mother
Title: Re:Security Concerns
Post by: Radar on July 16, 2003, 05:44:42 pm
Someone told me the Fed would murder all 20,000 people like they did with the people in Waco and Ruby Ridge.  I told him we wouldn't be in one location and if they did try to kill 20,000 people they'd have a big fight on their hands.  If they managed to kill all 20,000 of us, 20 million would replace us.
Title: Re:Security Concerns
Post by: Sebastian on July 17, 2003, 08:35:58 am
Quote
If they managed to kill all 20,000 of us, 20 million would replace us.
Agreed.

If they have the IRS go after us, we'll get the support of anti-IRS/anti-tax groups, and most likely a ton of new members.

If we play our cards right, any aggressive actions by (federal)government against us will play right into our hand.

I realize it may be tough on individual FSP members, but I'm sure that indidivual will find support from our fellow FSP members in emotional and perhaps also financial form.
Title: Re:Security Concerns
Post by: Adam Selene on July 17, 2003, 04:04:40 pm
I'm with Herbalist, I'd like to keep my FBI/TIA file as small as possible.

Those types of people (who have every right to make that choice); may choose not to participate in certain types of activism (petition signing, joining political parties, voting, getting arrested, using their real name when signing up for FSP, etc).

However, Herbalist, there are still many ways to participate. Move to the target state, create jobs, donate money, finance venture startups, recruit other members, etc. IMHO this type of activism is worth 100x what your vote or name on a petition is worth.
Title: Re:Security Concerns
Post by: LeopardPM on July 19, 2003, 07:31:49 am
Herbalist,
Would you agree that the more non-violent, non-secession type people get involved - the less chance of the government being able to rally support in their attempts of dislodging us?  So, I would say that by you deciding to join, you actually lower the chances of government intervention and raise the chances of the FSP succeeding... whatchya got to lose?

Good to meet you, H

see you in the FreeState 0 even if you just come to visit
michael
Title: Re:Security Concerns
Post by: Herbalist on July 21, 2003, 08:31:06 am
Michael,

I don't think I would agre that more non-violent, non-secession type people would lessen the chance of the government deciding all FSP members were a threat to be closely monitored.  Randy Weaver's family just wanted to be left alone, and see what happened to them?  It started with entrapment by the BATF and ended in bloodshed.  The Branch Davidians just wanted to be left alone, and they were initially ensnared by obscure tax issues that also ended in horrific bloodshed.  Not that either group was completely blameless, of course, but the reaction of the federal government was consistently out of proportion in both cases.

No, I'm afraid that FSP members are going to be singled out, like I mentioned in my initial post, for increased IRS scrutiny, denial of handgun permits, revokation of security clearances, etc, starting long before any move occurs.

However, that doesn't dampen my enthusiasm for the project!  In deference to my husband's concerns I don't think we'll be joining - but I do plan to support the project financially and move to the chosen state as soon as it's announced.  It just so happens that we plan on moving in the next seven years or so and all the states on the list sound good.  

It is so vital to live as one's ethics dictate, so I'm afraid this makes me something of a hypocrite.  But, in this case, I'm not so sure much can be accomplished by getting my name adding to another list.  BUT -- I want the project to succeed, and for a state to be chosen by those brave enough to participate, so I can move there and become an activist also!  I feel sheepish admitting that, and hope the members of FSP won't think poorly of me for it.  I so whole-heartedly believe in freedom and individual self-determination but feel hopelessly trapped and frustrated by the current system.   :'(

I love these boards and feel so hopeful when reading posts from so many like-minded people.  I have no doubt the FSP will succeed, and we'll be there after the fact, if you'll have us!

H
Title: Re:Security Concerns
Post by: SandyPrice on July 21, 2003, 09:35:09 am
Herbalist, let the government single us all out.  The more they show annoyance the better we will be shown to want our freedoms.  

Listen gal, I'm over 70 and am totally sick to death of the intrusive John Ashcroft and his data base being built around all Americans.  One of my dreams is to let it be known that the FSP will not fill out a long form during the year when the census is being sent out.  We could be a model for the rest of America.  Let them make headlines for us!!!

There are many ways we will have to work on to protect us from the federal government.  We must pay our federal taxes because this is where they will put the pressure.  We must not break any federal laws at all.  Where ever we land, the local laws must not be broken but we can change them after being elected to several key political positions.  There are ways to make these changes without breaking any law.  

We cannot be red necks in our attitudes.  
Title: Re:Security Concerns
Post by: LeopardPM on July 21, 2003, 04:58:21 pm
This may be our fatal flaw: I agree with you that we need to all obey the federal laws just like model citizens, BUT, you are talking about a bunch of libertarians here who routinely will try to find any crack or method to avoid: federal income taxes, state sales tax, employee taxes, etc....
Title: Re:Security Concerns
Post by: Adam Selene on July 22, 2003, 01:26:18 am
However, that doesn't dampen my enthusiasm for the project!  In deference to my husband's concerns I don't think we'll be joining - but I do plan to support the project financially and move to the chosen state as soon as it's announced.

Herbalist, I think you have made a fine decision.

What is nice about the Free State Project is that it is attractive to two types of people, which are very much opposites. Those that would try to reform a system, and those that who would leave it.

I do not believe in political activism. What I do believe in is emmigration. Voting with you feet not your ballot. I have already done so once.

With the immigration of enough people to any destination -- prime movers and people dedicated to their freedom -- whatever"system" that exists there today well be like a sand castle against the rising tide.
Title: Re:Security Concerns
Post by: MajesticLeo on July 22, 2003, 07:22:17 am
I do not believe in political activism. What I do believe in is emmigration. Voting with you feet not your ballot. I have already done so once.

With the immigration of enough people to any destination -- prime movers and people dedicated to their freedom -- whatever"system" that exists there today well be like a sand castle against the rising tide.


Perhaps I am not understanding something here.  You don't believe in "political activism" or "voting with your ballot";  how is moving to a new area going to change the political climate if you aren't going to do anything to change it?  Do you think your presence alone will cause everyone else to suddenly change their minds and laws, even thought they don't have any idea what it is you believe?  (and how can they if you don't believe in political activism?)

Sounds confusing to me,  seems to me you have to at least vote for change if you expect any to take place. ???
Title: Re:Security Concerns
Post by: Adam Selene on July 22, 2003, 01:21:41 pm
It's not confusing at all, once you realize your slavery is based solely upon your sanction. All you need do is to remove your sanction.

Yes, I expect my simple presence, and that of others similar, will have more effect than reforming every law on the books. There are people who ask permission and their are people who realize no permission is required. Your slavery is in your mind.

Perhaps I can see this more clearly given my first business ambitions were in the crumbling Soviet Union. Or that I now live in a place where are many expatriates who just do, and deal with the squeeze as businessmen rather than citizen-subjects.

Reform is simply an alternative system of control; and is often counter-productive. Rather, the tighter the system squeezes, the more people that remove their sanction.

I support the Free State because I feel that if a large number of such people concentrated into an area, it could be a revolutionary economic experiment. No batteries required.
Title: Re:Security Concerns
Post by: MajesticLeo on July 22, 2003, 02:22:18 pm
"Remove their sanction",  "no permission is required"; I can only assume you mean you will not be a "slave" to any system of government???   That means you don't intend to engage in any business requiring a license, drive an automobile on a public road with a license, won't pay taxes (which means you can't buy gas for your car anyway), will do anything you want without regard to anyone else?

Yes, I can see how the presence of someone like that could have an effect on the community, at least until the rest of us had to pay the cost of your confinement.
Title: Re:Security Concerns
Post by: LeopardPM on July 22, 2003, 02:54:43 pm
the 'slavery' is the force used without consent - ie: pay taxes, force licensing, draft, etc... the voting giving consent is true, but has nothing to due with the slavery itself... by not voting you are still a slave - but you have lost your will perhaps?
Title: Re:Security Concerns
Post by: Adam Selene on July 22, 2003, 03:37:05 pm
MajesticLeo, if that is your definition living in freedom, then good luck to you. Until you loose this idealist vision, you'll never learn to live free.

I certainly don't see how you extrapolated "paying the squeeze as businessmen" into refusing to pay any taxes; so please don't put words into my mouth.

No, LeopardPM, slavery is not force used without consent. If I hit you, are you my slave? Slavery is a slave/master relationship. Once you realize you have no master, and owe no subservience, you are no longer a slave.

That there are still thugs in the world who would use force upon you is not relevant to the issue, and the notion that you can create a world in which thugs do not exist is idealistic nonsense.
Title: Re:Security Concerns
Post by: LeopardPM on July 22, 2003, 07:03:57 pm
never said a thing about a world without thugs... or force...

I was trying to point out how voting or choosing to not vote does not make one any more or less free from the supposed 'slavery' of having a government legislate upon you and steal from you.  I continue to not make myself clear - forgive me.

Title: Re:Security Concerns
Post by: Adam Selene on July 22, 2003, 07:54:20 pm
I was trying to point out how voting or choosing to not vote does not make one any more or less free from the supposed 'slavery' of having a government legislate upon you and steal from you.

The act of voting itself does not have any effect (unless you are extremely paranoid), but registering to vote does (obligations such as jury duty, and possible tax exposure).

However it was not a point I was making. The point I was making is that those that, for *any* reason, choose not to engage in certain types of political activism -- petition signing, party registration, voter registration, voting, joining FSP -- can still have large impact in the target state. In fact, a larger impact, IMHO, than solely their signature on a petition or ballot.

Now as to what reasons they has is purely their own, and will certainly vary. Whether you agree with them is not the point, it is a choice some people will make regardless.

Example, whether you believe signing a petition will get you an IRS audit, or on the TSA watch-list, I leave to your own paranoia.
Title: Re:Security Concerns
Post by: Zack Bass on July 22, 2003, 08:23:44 pm

Slavery is a slave/master relationship. Once you realize you have no master, and owe no subservience, you are no longer a slave.


Great.  Just let me get these manacles on you, and you can go back to your silly internal world of perceived Freedom.  Now bend over and I'll drive you home.

Title: Re:Security Concerns
Post by: MajesticLeo on July 22, 2003, 08:25:04 pm

I certainly don't see how you extrapolated "paying the squeeze as businessmen" into refusing to pay any taxes; so please don't put words into my mouth.



I never even considered that particular phrase, actually refusal to pay taxes seemed to proceed naturally from the idea of you don't intend to submit to any type of government influence (which is what I inferred you meant as a "Master")

Actually you never really say anything about how your presence, without any action on your part, will effect change.   Perhaps your expanded aura resulting from your enlightenment will cause spontaneous evolvement in the immediate area?   You keep saying you can have a "large impact" but never give a clue how this spontaneous impact will happen.  

Since I did not give you a definition of "living free" somehow I don't think you have much right to criticize my "Idealist Vision", especially since your vision seems so much more idealistic in that change will occur as if by magic just by your presence in the area.

Not that I am against that happening, I am just not so spiritually advanced as to be able to materially effect change in people and institutions by my mere presence.
Title: Re:Security Concerns
Post by: Adam Selene on July 22, 2003, 08:38:21 pm
I think I figured out where you got confused re: slavery.

In reply to the MajesticLeo's statement that "you have to at least vote for change if you expect any [change] to take place."

The notion that you must vote to affect your freedom is a slave petitioning his master for permission. This is not freedom. The most important place of change is not in the laws, but in the minds of individuals. Laws will follow, not lead, a movement towards freedom.

The best way for people to lose their slave mentality is to come in contact with individuals who already regard themselves as free, and act accordingly. And no, this does not mean trying to avoid completely the costs imposed by thugs, it means taking responsibility and dealing with each individually on a cost/consequence/alternative basis.
Title: Re:Security Concerns
Post by: MajesticLeo on July 22, 2003, 09:07:39 pm
I The most important place of change is not in the laws, but in the minds of individuals. Laws will follow, not lead, a movement towards freedom.

The best way for people to lose their slave mentality is to come in contact with individuals who already regard themselves as free, and act accordingly. And no, this does not mean trying to avoid completely the costs imposed by thugs, it means taking responsibility and dealing with each individually on a cost/consequence/alternative basis.


That is all very well, and sounds really pretty, but it doesn't say anything.  It is just meaningless circular rhetoric.  And besides how are you going to have this "movement toward freedom" without some kind of action to bring about the movement?   Or does movement not imply action?  Re-read Zack's post cause your intellectual freedom leads exactly there.   Just MNSHO of course.
Title: Re:Security Concerns
Post by: Adam Selene on July 22, 2003, 09:12:42 pm
Perhaps your expanded aura resulting from your enlightenment will cause spontaneous evolvement in the immediate area?   You keep saying you can have a "large impact" but never give a clue how this spontaneous impact will happen.  

I have better things to do with my time than get into flame wars with someone who failed to read my posts.

However, Herbalist, there are still many ways to participate. Move to the target state, create jobs, donate money, finance venture startups, recruit other members, etc. IMHO this type of activism is worth 100x what your vote or name on a petition is worth.

How about I simply this into multiple choice for you.

Rank the following actions in order if impact.

1) Sign a petition
2) Cast a ballot
3) Donate 2% of your income to political candidate/causes
4) Spend 30% of your disposable income in a State
5) Buy real esate in the State (worth 5x your annual income)
6) Start a business in the state
7) Employ 100 other people in the State
8) Employ 10,000 people in the State

If I need give some examples; the spending power of tourists coming to Vegas has much more impact on sustaining Vegas's freedom with respect to gambling than does its voting constituency; or the potential flight of foreign deposits in maintaining Switzerland's banking privacy; etc.

Economics trumps politics. Politics is almost always reactionary.
Title: Re:Security Concerns
Post by: Zack Bass on July 22, 2003, 09:25:16 pm

Rank the following actions in order if impact.

1) Sign a petition
2) Cast a ballot
3) Donate 2% of your income to political candidate/causes
4) Spend 30% of your disposable income in a State
5) Buy real esate in the State (worth 5x your annual income)
6) Start a business in the state
7) Employ 100 other people in the State
(8) Employ 10,000 people in the State


I will rank them, not in order of "impact", but in order of helping Freedom:

(1) Some
(2) Some
(3) A fair amount
(4) None
(5) None
(6) None
(7) None
(8) None

The Impact of simply spending your money there, or employing people there, is not different from the Impact a Statist would have who did the same thing.

<<Note:  8_)  is a Smilie; and "disable Smilies" doesn't work.>>

Title: Re:Security Concerns
Post by: Adam Selene on July 22, 2003, 09:46:58 pm
The Impact of simply spending your money there, or employing people there, is not different from the Impact a Statist would have who did the same thing.

No, because your doing so for a reason -- the freedom that exists there today and/or may exist there in the near future. You need to be equally willing to withdraw such support and move someplace else.

We're talking about States with relatively small economies.

This phenomenon is easily visible if you look at the booms and busts of offshore domiciles. Costa Rica and Dominican Republic have had amazing booms due to foreign residents and foreign-owned businesses, yet those people do not vote. They came for certain freedoms and "laxness"; and that they may leave is not a political non-factor.

One of the most important elements moderating governments today is the mobility of people, money and businesses; competition between jurisdictions and regulatory arbitrage. Why do you think the EU/OECD is trying so hard to eliminate "harmful tax competition"?

You honestly claim that the loss of tourism would have no impact on whether Las Vegas outlawed gambling, or that there would be no similar dynamics in the Free State; particularly after certain milestones are acheived? Or that the local populace (statist as they may be) would not fight to protect freedoms from which they see a visible benefit to the economy and their own pocketbooks?
Title: Re:Security Concerns
Post by: Zack Bass on July 22, 2003, 10:24:33 pm

You honestly claim that the loss of tourism would have no impact on whether Las Vegas outlawed gambling


What effect would increased tourism have on whether Las Vegas legalized Prostitution?
What effect would increased tourism have on whether Las Vegas legalized Drugs?

What effect would loss of tourism have on whether Holland outlawed Prostitution?
What effect would loss of tourism have on whether Holland outlawed Dope?

What effect would increased tourism have on whether Saudi Arabia legalized alcohol?

Economic factors are not the only ones driving Laws.

Title: Re:Security Concerns
Post by: MajesticLeo on July 23, 2003, 07:16:59 am

I have better things to do with my time than get into flame wars with someone who failed to read my posts.

However, Herbalist, there are still many ways to participate. Move to the target state, create jobs, donate money, finance venture startups, recruit other members, etc. IMHO this type of activism is worth 100x what your vote or name on a petition is worth.


Have no desire to enter "flame wars" either,(and I did read all your posts)

 Thank you for finally answering my simple question (even if you did answer it to Herbalist) about what actions you intend to use to effect change.   Now I know, you are going there and spend money.   Thats all I wanted to know.
Title: Re:Security Concerns
Post by: Adam Selene on July 23, 2003, 05:54:00 pm
Now I know, you are going there and spend money.   Thats all I wanted to know.

I didn't say that either, but whatever.

To claim that the only way people can promote economic and social freedom in the State is to put their name on a petition, ballot or member list, is not only to be completely devoid of imagination, but is rather insulting.

Would you tell Herbalist and her husband, don't bother moving to the State, because you can't possibly have any positive impact unless you register for FSP and vote?
Title: Re:Security Concerns
Post by: WalterGR on September 29, 2003, 02:43:50 pm

If you're really concerned about this your best bet is to start hitting the range at least once per week and to buy more ammo and other gear.   Why hide under the bed when you can get ready to bury the enemy, IF (and it's pretty unlikely) they initiate force against you?


When was the last time that worked?
(Not that I think it's wrong; only futile and counterproductive.)



Athens, TN - August 1 & 2, 1945.
Title: Re:Security Concerns
Post by: SteveA on September 30, 2003, 12:51:14 am
Adam has some good thoughts here that I know Ayn Rand was promoting.

He's talking about being free, not trying to become free.  In reality we are all truly free.  We can make any decisions we want and act accordingly.  I think it even says such in the Declaration of Independence.  If we believe we are controlled by government and act accordingly then for all intents and purposes we are enslaved.  From that point of view, the FSP is about reducing the level of "thuggery" in our society.  If noone knew about paying income tax and someone came up to your door one day and said - you owe us $27,000 + fines + interest = a whole ton of money, you'd probably tell the guy he was crazy.  If he came back with a gun and threatened you to work for him as compensation (I'm bypassing the fiat money) he would quickly find a lot of angry people and not much luck collecting.  Yes, sometimes people die but that's what the Founders fought for.  There is crime and sometimes that crime is declared legal by a few individuals and we have become accustomed to accepting it as truth.

The truth is that for every act of violence and destruction commited by the government there is a large backlash, greater than what gains were attempted to be collected originally.  The system cannot sustain itself if people "opt out" of the game.  So effectively everyone that decides not to live by perceived threats indirectly is freeing others.  I think most here would agree that if everyone joined the FSP, such "slavery" would evaporate but it is because of individuals freeing themselves mentally and not becoming a participant in seeking control of others.  It's all in the mind and the sooner people realize what the rules of the game are, the sooner we all win.  In a sense you could say that government does not truly control us.  It can be viewed as inidividuals using force to control others and most the controlled individuals accept it as the natural order of things.

I assume this resembles what you were expecting to see:

1) Sign a petition - spend a small amount of time acknowledging you are a slave
2) Cast a ballot - spend a little time picking a new master
3) Donate 2% of your income to political candidate/causes - 2% of your effort enslaved.
4) Spend 30% of your disposable income in a State - Accepting trade between individuals to (hopefully) benefit both of you.
5) Buy real esate in the State (worth 5x your annual income) - If done through a fiat money loan then the owner is willing to accept paper for real property and then hoping the bank will print more money so you give it back to them to keep the property.  If the trade is done between individuals using items of value then you will hopefully both benefit.
6) Start a business in the state - Ignoring taxes you are likely attempting to increase your quality of life by creating a framework that increases your productivity.
7) Employ 100 other people in the State - Same as start business but now you are influencing the efficiency of human endeavor of 100 people.
Employ 10,000 people in the State - Ditto but for 10,000 people.
Title: Homeland Security
Post by: Osborn F. Enready on February 19, 2004, 01:15:18 am
     The following is a post I put in another forum I thought most of you may find interesting. ;)

Homeland Security
I thought some of you guys might enjoy some of these examples of "security" that the government sees fit to spend our tax money on.
This information is directly from "Wired" magazine February 2004 issue.

The Bastard Children of Total Informational Awareness (TIA)


Congress killed TIA (Total Informational Awareness), Darpa's far flung effort to comb databases in search of terrorists. But that doesn't mean the authorities are finished sorting through the records of Americans to expose "evil-doers". Some analysts think bits of TIA still exist on the covert "black" side of the Pentagons ledger. Here, with text straight out of government and corporate documents, are a few of the unclassified efforts:

CAPPS II (Computer Assisted Passenger Prescreening System)
*OVERLORD: Transportation Security Administration
*FUNCTION: Compares "passenger records... against commercial databases" as well as government information and "national security information" to see if a traveler has links to terrorist organizations.
*STATUS: Active


MATRIX (Multistate Anti-Terrorism Information Exchange)
*OVERLORD: Law enforcement agencies in Florida, and seven other states, funded by the U.S. Department of Justice.
*FUNCTION: Integrates criminal history and "PUBLIC DATA" to find evidence of terrorist activity. Much of the data is kept by Seisint, whose founder was implicated in a 1980's drug ring.
*STATUS: Active


mohoClassifier
*OVERLORDS: Kofax Image Products, for the CIA and other national security organizations.
*FUNCTION: Identifies "events/trends/warning signals" in "Web pages, news articles,e-mail, and other electronic documents."
*STATUS: Active


NORA (Non-Obvious Relatioship Awareness)
*OVERLORD: Systems Research and Development, a CIA-funded firm, for unspecified "government customers"
*FUNCTION: Cross-references multiple databases to "identify potentially alarming non-obvious relationships among and between individuals and companies."
*STATUS: Active


ACUMEN (Adaptive Concept Understanding From Modeled Enterprise Networks)
*OVERLORD: Torch Concepts
*FUNCTION: Uses "Intelligent pattern recognition" on publicly available data to spot "relationships and behaviors that may point to potential terrorist threats" and "rebel actions" near US Army bases around the world.
*STATUS: Unknown


NIMD (Novel Intelligence From Massive Data)
*OVERLORD: Advanced Research and Development Activity (ARDA)
*FUNCTION: Scrutinizes "audio,video,tables,graphs,diagrams,images,maps,equations,chemical formulas,etc." to help government intelligence analysts see "the telltale signs of strategic suprise."
*STATUS: Unkown




Well, hope those peaked your intrest. Do you still feel your privacy is safe?????? Discuss....


Osborn F. Enready
_________________
" A man who would trade a measure of liberty, for a measure of security, DESERVES NEITHER."
Title: Re:Homeland Security
Post by: LeopardPM on February 19, 2004, 01:59:15 am
ACK!

(no intelligent response possible at this point, just plain scared)


michael
Title: What about the CIA and FBI
Post by: maxtomaximum on July 25, 2004, 06:06:07 am
Are the CIA and FBI watching FSP and the Forum? :o :o
Title: Re:What about the CIA and FBI
Post by: lloydbob1 on July 25, 2004, 07:18:43 am
Probably not the CIA.  We are not the business of the FBI either as we are not breaking any laws, but, internal spying and record keeping of all political organizations  became the norm under J. E. Hoover and continues to this day.
Title: Re:What about the CIA and FBI
Post by: jgmaynard on July 25, 2004, 08:05:24 am
Are the CIA and FBI watching FSP and the Forum? :o :o

Wouldn't suprise me a bit if they were...... Matter of fact, I would be very suprised if they weren't.

So what?

We're not doing anything illegal. The worst they have to worry about from us will be NH opting out of a lot of fed programs, cutting a good deal of money out for the Feds.

If the FBI/CIA/NSA/BATF etc., ARE watching us...... HI FOLKS!  ;D

JM
Title: Re:What about the CIA and FBI
Post by: FTL_Ian on July 25, 2004, 09:43:36 am
Attention law enforcement:

(http://surreally.net/fullbleed/exliontamer/images/middle-finger.gif)

Go get a donut!

(http://images.freetalklive.com/fark/DOWB.jpg)

 ::)
Ian
Title: Re:What about the CIA and FBI
Post by: MicroBalrog on July 28, 2004, 02:37:16 pm
(http://www.olegvolk.net/gallery/albums/m1911/atf_kit.jpg)

Title: Re:What about the CIA and FBI
Post by: Kelton Baker on July 29, 2004, 09:39:04 am
Probably some 28-year old bureaucrat who started out in private security and now is rookie investigator in a cubicle at some non-descript facility has the FSP among a list of assignments.

He's already 16 lbs. overweight and steadily increasing, has 1.5 kids, a new SUV, and just got a mortgage on a small home this last spring.  
He reports to his boss, a 56-year old divorced woman who likes to act tough and who spends half her time quietly checking on her retirement plan behind closed doors, --she proudly displays a signed administrative message from Janet Reno on her office wall.

He could care less about the FSP, and the 9 other politically-motivated action groups he is assigned to observe, but makes sure to do a thorough job of data collection, and would never admit it, but does occasionally go out of his way to highlight more spicy material on the message boards just to ensure that his assignments maintain their "code yellow" status and don't get assigned to the automated observation computer system; as he already knows his job security depends on there being an adequate supply of code-yellow groups.
He hopes to someday get promoted to grade 5 and work on "code orange" groups, but in the meantime, he must bide his time and read and record the internet chatter.  

He absolutely hates the everyday routine of his job, and sometimes dreams of becoming a field agent, which was what motivated him in the first place, but his wife wouldn't have that lifestyle, especially now with the kids.  He still remembers the excitement he had when he passed the test and formally applied with this agency with "Mission: Impossible" starring Tom Cruise, fresh on his mind.  He also enjoys telling a few select friends, who he knows at church, that he works for agency x, and thrills at seeing them intrigued.  He also feels a bit smug at packing a concealed weapon in his state, where ordinary citizens don't have the same privilege, even into his worship services where they are doubly-banned, but such is the burden of public service he decides, oh oh . . . boss alert, look busy! . . . Free State Project, 2005 1Q financial statements, hmm. . .  "good thing I took that business accounting class at my junior college . . . why does this outstanding $1400 liability keep carrying-over each quarter?  I'll make a note to investigate next quarter,  I'll quickly go see if there's any juicy info on the message board. . ."    
Title: Re:Security Concerns
Post by: FTL_Ian on July 29, 2004, 02:32:29 pm
 ;D *snickers*
Title: Re:What about the CIA and FBI
Post by: SteveA on July 29, 2004, 03:58:19 pm
Probably some 28-year old bureaucrat who started out in private security and now is rookie investigator in a cubicle at some non-descript facility has the FSP among a list of assignments.

He's already 16 lbs. overweight and steadily increasing, has 1.5 kids, a new SUV, and just got a mortgage on a small home this last spring.  
He reports to his boss, a 56-year old divorced woman who likes to act tough and who spends half her time quietly checking on her retirement plan behind closed doors, --she proudly displays a signed administrative message from Janet Reno on her office wall.

He could care less about the FSP, and the 9 other politically-motivated action groups he is assigned to observe, but makes sure to do a thorough job of data collection, and would never admit it, but does occasionally go out of his way to highlight more spicy material on the message boards just to ensure that his assignments maintain their "code yellow" status and don't get assigned to the automated observation computer system; as he already knows his job security depends on there being an adequate supply of code-yellow groups.
He hopes to someday get promoted to grade 5 and work on "code orange" groups, but in the meantime, he must bide his time and read and record the internet chatter.  

He absolutely hates the everyday routine of his job, and sometimes dreams of becoming a field agent, which was what motivated him in the first place, but his wife wouldn't have that lifestyle, especially now with the kids.  He still remembers the excitement he had when he passed the test and formally applied with this agency with "Mission: Impossible" starring Tom Cruise, fresh on his mind.  He also enjoys telling a few select friends, who he knows at church, that he works for agency x, and thrills at seeing them intrigued.  He also feels a bit smug at packing a concealed weapon in his state, where ordinary citizens don't have the same privilege, even into his worship services where they are doubly-banned, but such is the burden of public service he decides, oh oh . . . boss alert, look busy! . . . Free State Project, 2005 1Q financial statements, hmm. . .  "good thing I took that business accounting class at my junior college . . . why does this outstanding $1400 liability keep carrying-over each quarter?  I'll make a note to investigate next quarter,  I'll quickly go see if there's any juicy info on the message board. . ."    

You should be a writer, Kelton.  I could picture that as the beginning of a great novel.