Free State Project Forum

FSP -- General Discussion => Prospective Participants => Topic started by: debra on July 20, 2002, 04:53:35 pm

Title: What type of people are in the FSP?
Post by: debra on July 20, 2002, 04:53:35 pm

My apology's people for butting into your discussion about boards,websites ,emails,and such .
But i'm very new here and i am not a hardcore computer geek either,but i  found out about this site by reading a post  about FSP, from assaultweb.net  ,and from what i see thus far i am still curious even though i am a member i am still wondering what type of people am i dealing with.
I was a card carrying member of t/libertarian party and  quit cause a lot of it's members were just plain silly,what ,and who are you people and what do you stand for,not trying to be rude just want to know for my family's sake and safety
what i am getting into?


No problem, but I'm going to copy this on the Prospective Member board as well.

Most of us (a little over 500) are libertarian leaning. Some are more conservative (think Pat Buchanan) while others are left-libertarians (maybe like Robert Heinlein?) and yet others lean toward market anarchism (a la Rothbard & Spooner). In short, there's no real "type" except that we all want more liberty than we currently have!

As you probably noted, this web board is fairly new (just put up this week, and we haven't even announced it officially on the mail lists), so that's why there's not much activity here. You can probably get a pretty good idea of what we're like by reading some of the archived posts in the various yahoo groups ( http://groups.yahoo.com/group/freestateproject and http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fspcrackerbarrel )

Hope this helps, and thanks for posting on our new forum!

Debra
Title: Re:What type of people are in the FSP?
Post by: BLADERUNNER33 on July 20, 2002, 06:59:30 pm
Oh  i've been to the archives and i have look at just about everything once,i'll go over it again,for now i'm jsut trying to get comfortable to my new surroundings.
Title: Re:What type of people are in the FSP?
Post by: Mega Joule on July 24, 2002, 06:17:49 pm

Oh  i've been to the archives and i have look at just about everything once,i'll go over it again,for now i'm jsut trying to get comfortable to my new surroundings.


Welcome.  I've  been on the email form of this forum for some months now, I'm still trying to get used to this new environment myself.  There are some really nice aspects to the new forum like threaded topics.  As for the general environment of the FSP your doing what we new comers have all had to do and that's just read a lot, post when you have comments or questions, and stick around.  I've already seen some hot topics arise.  Sometimes people get stirred up about things and big discussions go on over issues.  After awhile things get sorted out and we all learn more about each other.  It seems to work out okay in the end.

I think FSP is a great idea.  I have not yet signed up myself, but am certainly leaning in that direction.  Of course not being an official member has not stopped me from getting involved.  I shoot off my opinions at times, I am working on a committee, and I read and post as often as I can.  I think I am finally starting to feel like I am a part of the community.   It took me awhile to feel like I belonged here.  At first I just felt like this outsider.  Again welcome.  

Mega Joule
Title: Re:What type of people are in the FSP?
Post by: antayla on July 30, 2002, 04:33:27 am
That sure sounds like an invitation to introduce myself :P

Well this is one kind of person that is in the free state project.  I guess if I were to label myself I would call myself an agnostic, social libertarian, self-sustainabilitarian, globalist (as in, a free globe for all) environmentalist, pacifist, humanist, gamer :)  I decided to get into this mess because I believe there's room in this world for every kind of government, and if we are going to see a free globe someone needs to set an example.  For now I will work toward a free state...  One free state.  Hopefully later it can turn into a free world where there is a central government that only exists to protect individual rights.  I also felt this project needed a spokeswoman for environmental health rights (pollution is a problem that affects everyone, and someone needs to keep business accountable for how they poison the general public.)

My husband joined this project with me.  He's a hard-core socialist.  I'm hoping to prove that freedom and socialism can coexist on a voluntary basis

Also, I love music, I love gaming, and I love hanging out outdoors.  I am a hardcore individualist, but I also believe very strongly in the power of the community to work together to fix their own problems, without the aid of a major government.

Anyway I am going to launch a grassroots campaign to promote the free state project...  Portland style :) and that means a lot of canvassing and leaving fliers around and talking to people at peace rallies etc.  I really hope this works *fingers crossed*
Title: Re:What type of people are in the FSP?
Post by: Eddie_Bradford on July 30, 2002, 12:03:53 pm
Well I say welcome Antayla!  I'm really glad that you have joined and expecially because we actually we don't have many people from this point of view in our group.  I believe your opinions will be invaluable in targeting and attracting the left leaning libertarians.  

Quote

I believe there's room in this world for every kind of government


hopefully not the the mass murdering genocidal war mongraling ones   ;)

Quote

I also felt this project needed a spokeswoman for environmental health rights (pollution is a problem that affects everyone, and someone needs to keep business accountable for how they poison the general public.)


Indeed I agree.  I actually think libertarians are very pro-evironment, because of our fierce protection of property rights you could pollute your own land but if you say polluted the air and if went off of your land you would be in serious violation of someone else's property rights.  Also if you say buried waste on you land and that waste seeped into the water table and went into someone else's land then you would be liable for all damages.

Quote

He's a hard-core socialist.  I'm hoping to prove that freedom and socialism can coexist on a voluntary basis


I to think that hard-core socialists would be interested in this project because they would be free to form whatever society they wanted as long as it was on a voluntary basis.  
You might want to let you husband know and get used to the fact that really rich people will be able to make money and keep all of it in the FS, and that not government nor anyone else will be able to touch it unless it was gotten through fraud or by violating other people's rights.

I'd also like to give you a word of caution though.  Because of built up latent frustration at the erosion of individual's rights, some libertarians can be a little harsh to people who dissagree with them.  If this happens you should ignore it and realise that they do not speak for the group and that they are taking their frustration that freedom is dying around them out on you.  While I believe that we have an exceptional group of people here, from time to time there will be a jaded libertarian that comes in and flames another person who they dissagree with on a minor point and then leaves in a huff.  Anyway as long as you remember that we are trying to make a society where no one is forced to do anything except respect other's rights then I'm sure you'll be happy here.
-Eddie
Title: Re:What type of people are in the FSP?
Post by: cathleeninsc on July 31, 2002, 07:14:28 am

Well this is one kind of person that is in the free state project.  I guess if I were to label myself I would call myself an agnostic, social libertarian, self-sustainabilitarian, globalist (as in, a free globe for all) environmentalist, pacifist, humanist, gamer :)  
I also felt this project needed a spokeswoman for environmental health rights (pollution is a problem that affects everyone, and someone needs to keep business accountable for how they poison the general public.)

My husband joined this project with me.  He's a hard-core socialist.  I'm hoping to prove that freedom and socialism can coexist on a voluntary basis

Also, I love music, I love gaming, and I love hanging out outdoors.  I am a hardcore individualist, but I also believe very strongly in the power of the community to work together to fix their own problems, without the aid of a major government.

Anyway I am going to launch a grassroots campaign to promote the free state project...  Portland style :) and that means a lot of canvassing and leaving fliers around and talking to people at peace rallies etc.  I really hope this works *fingers crossed*


Good to see you here. I too am very concerned about the environment but haven't gotten involved with any groups because they usually end up wanting my money to lobby Congress.

And what is voluntary socialism?

I enjoy simple living, which means I am not taken in by media, advertising, and political hype.

I enjoyed the Donahue and Stossel reports on the failed drug war the last couple of nights. I think it would be naive of me to think the tide had turned, though.

Just a little about me. I look forward to hearing from others about how to ensure accountibility regarding environmental trespasses.

I also have been handing out fliers. On Saturday I attended a Americans for Constitutional Government function where the average age was around 70. The only thing I could think was to market the FSP as a retirement opportunity. I guess I wasted my breath and paper.


Cathleen in SC
Title: Re:What type of people are in the FSP?
Post by: Eddie_Bradford on July 31, 2002, 08:26:32 am
Quote

And what is voluntary socialism?

This is where a bunch of people who describe themselfs as 'socialists' come to the free state and form a 'commune' and volunarily give up all of their wealth and earnings to their collective group which they the distribute however they like.  They would form a little 'socialism' society within the capitalist market.  If you lived in the commune and decided it sucked then you could leave, or if you didn't live in it but wanted to you could join up if they allow you to.  This way people who really believe this system of society is best can form little communities of it.  Now frankly most people in this group probably don't think this would work but we also believe in free association and encourage people to do whatever they want as long as the don't harm anyone.
Quote

I look forward to hearing from others about how to ensure accountibility regarding environmental trespasses.

Indeed!  This is a great topic for debate and I too am interested in this.  Presumably you could simply go to court and sue to get the violator to stop polluting and for damages.  Now for air pollution you could probably do some carbon monoxide test or other test to evaluate the level of pollution on your land.  (There will probably need to be some level of tollerance for air pollution so that people could have a fire or grill or drive a car) but if there is a noticable spike in pollutants in the air on a daily basis I'd think you could easily sue to get them to stop and/or for damages.  This is an extremely property rights sensitive approach which may be very impracticle in some cases.  Another way to approach the problem is to decide as a region how much to charge for the commodity of 'using' clean air.  We could set a standard rate and then you'd have to pay x for you car pollution and companies that polluted would have to pay the same going rate to pollute the air.  I don't know though ideas anyone?
-Eddie
Title: Re:What type of people are in the FSP?
Post by: Dex Sinister on August 01, 2002, 01:29:16 am

Quote

And what is voluntary socialism?

This is where a bunch of people who describe themselves as 'socialists' come to the free state and form a 'commune'... <snip> ...Now frankly most people in this group probably don't think this would work but we also believe in free association and encourage people to do whatever they want as long as the don't harm anyone.


Actually, America has a fairly long history of such experiments, with Oneida (yes, the silverware people) probably being the most famous. Most have been religious in nature, but socialist-communitarian none the less. Generally they dissolved by the 2nd generation, but some not. Some also believed in abstinance, which makes sustainability a problem. The Kibutz system in Israel works fine too.

The key is, socialism doesn't tend to work without an environment of capitalism surrounding it. However, given that environment, small socialist groups work just fine. After all, every family is essentially socialist in operation, so there's little reason you can't multiply that by 5 or 10 without running into much of a problem.

Dex }:>=-  

Title: Re:What type of people are in the FSP?
Post by: Dex Sinister on August 01, 2002, 01:32:49 am

My husband joined this project with me.  He's a hard-core socialist.  I'm hoping to prove that freedom and socialism can coexist on a voluntary basis.


And what is he hoping to prove, if I might ask?

Dex }:>=-
Title: Re:What type of people are in the FSP?
Post by: Elizabeth on August 01, 2002, 01:59:41 am

Well this is one kind of person that is in the free state project.  I guess if I were to label myself I would call myself an agnostic, social libertarian, self-sustainabilitarian, globalist (as in, a free globe for all) environmentalist, pacifist, humanist, gamer :)


Antayla, a belated welcome.  I agree with Eddie, it's great to see some diverse viewpoints in the group.  How did you get to libertarianism?

As for communalism, I myself have been for years interested in the "cohousing" concept:
http://www.cohousing.org/
and have always wanted to live in a small community with like-minded people.  I hope that the FSP will afford me that opportunity.

As for spouses requiring conversion, my husband is a conservative, but I'm working on him.  In 5 years, he's come around on a lot of issues (and I've come around on a few, too).
Title: Re:What type of people are in the FSP?
Post by: cathleeninsc on August 01, 2002, 08:24:28 am
Let me get this straight. Voluntary socialism in the FSP would be a group of people who choose not to take on the personal responsibility of libertarianism but cede it to a governing body. This entity has all the rights, responsibilities and liberties available in the FSP.

How do single purpose co-ops fit into the picture?

Cathleen in SC
Title: Re:What type of people are in the FSP?
Post by: percy, aka tntsmum on August 01, 2002, 10:25:01 am

Let me get this straight. Voluntary socialism in the FSP would be a group of people who choose not to take on the personal responsibility of libertarianism but cede it to a governing body. This entity has all the rights, responsibilities and liberties available in the FSP.

How do single purpose co-ops fit into the picture?

Cathleen in SC

Amen,.... I've spent a great deal of time trying to understand this concept of bringing socialism to the Free State and it simply doesn't make sense to me. I understand that they claim to desire only a self-contained socialist community where they all agree the needs of the collective supercede the needs and rights of the individual, however...... If one is truly of this mindset, why come to the FreeState where we are attempting the complete reverse? Hell, you're already 50 to 75% of the way to socialism in the States as it is, I would advise that you wait a few more years, stay put where you are... socialism should be in full swing before you know it!
I am quite agreeable to people living their lives as they see fit BUT, I have great reservations about setting up socialist communes in the Free State. I don't know that this would be beneficial to either the socialists or those who desire freedom and independance, free from demands that we all serve the collective. And no, I am not forgetting that the claimed desire is to simply set up self contained socialist communes.
Quite honestly, let us ask ourselves... If those who feel that the needs & rights of the individual are subserviant to the needs of the collective, when they vote their conscience, what will happen when we try to implement reform through voting?
Please, if I have not thought this out thoroughly, someone let me know where I may be going wrong in my thought process. I truly do not want to sound unkind but I simply cannot get past this paradox.
Title: Re:What type of people are in the FSP?
Post by: Eddie_Bradford on August 01, 2002, 11:15:42 am
I would content that most liberals and socialist in the US are really just angry at rich people and they want to take their money.  Sometimes they'll make the excuse that they want to give that money to poor people to get sympathy but whatever the reason they want to take money from rich people more than they want to give it to poor people.  Anyway I agree most socialists wouldn't like our state but I think some would.  I think there are socialist who respect individual rights, but they believe that a society where people give up their property to the good of the whole will create a better society than when this isn't done.  In addition the kinds of socialists that would prefer us would probably believe something like this.
1. personal freedom socialism as opposed to athoritarian socialism
2. Must strongly believe in the principle of voluntary association.
3. probably think that communal approach to property is economically more competitive than the private approach.
4. wants government close to the people, local and mearly an extension of the community
5. Want a chance to try this social experiment without the government usurping tax revenue.

In another place I noted how midevil monks are the only good example I can think of communes working and this I believe is in large part to voluntary associations.  Again I'm not saying these things will work but if you believe your society model will work the you shouldn't have to force people to be a part of it clear as that.
-Eddie
-Eddie
Title: Re:What type of people are in the FSP?
Post by: debra on August 01, 2002, 11:45:28 am

Amen,.... I've spent a great deal of time trying to understand this concept of bringing socialism to the Free State and it simply doesn't make sense to me. I understand that they claim to desire only a self-contained socialist community where they all agree the needs of the collective supercede the needs and rights of the individual, however...... If one is truly of this mindset, why come to the FreeState where we are attempting the complete reverse?


So they can implement their version of socialism.  For instance, a religious commune, a group marriage, a "back to nature" commune, etc.

Quote
Hell, you're already 50 to 75% of the way to socialism in the States as it is, I would advise that you wait a few more years, stay put where you are... socialism should be in full swing before you know it!


That doesn't even make sense. Take for example a small group of 30 people. They want to form a strict religious commune, with prayer twice daily, 10% tithing of income, church for 3 hours on Sunday, no dancing, no swearing, etc.  Can these 30 people change the laws of the US so that everyone around them follows these rules? Of course not. But in the Free State, they can form a little walled community that provides its own schooling, own internal welfare, and insists the moral codes be followed as well. THIS is voluntary socialism; giving up VOLUNTARILY for the good of a *select* group.

Quote

I am quite agreeable to people living their lives as they see fit BUT, I have great reservations about setting up socialist communes in the Free State.


Would you hold a gun to their heads to stop them? If you think "there oughta be a law against it", that's exactly what you're advocating.

Quote

I don't know that this would be beneficial to either the socialists


And precisely what are you advocating, when you are presuming to decide what would beneficial to "the socialists"? Shouldn't THEY be allowed to decide what is most beneficial?

Quote

or those who desire freedom and independance, free from demands that we all serve the collective. And no, I am not forgetting that the claimed desire is to simply set up self contained socialist communes.


Just because they want to live their lives a certain way does NOT necessarily mean that they will insist on everyone else doing the same.  

Quote


Quite honestly, let us ask ourselves... If those who feel that the needs & rights of the individual are subserviant to the needs of the collective, when they vote their conscience, what will happen when we try to implement reform through voting?


If we don't have enough people to overcome those votes, we lose.  But if out of fear of losing we start deciding who will be allowed to voluntary associate, and use the power of the state to enforce it, we've already lost. Besides, how are you doing to determine if a particular group of people is a "socialist commune?" Interviews? Socialism police?

Quote

Please, if I have not thought this out thoroughly, someone let me know where I may be going wrong in my thought process. I truly do not want to sound unkind but I simply cannot get past this paradox.


Break it down to its simplist form. In a Free State, socialists communes may form. You may not like it. But are you willing to use force to prevent them from doing so?
Title: Re:What type of people are in the FSP?
Post by: stephani on August 01, 2002, 02:32:57 pm
Debra, you're awesome.  That's exactly how I would have responded to that, except that you beat me to it!  We all have to stay open-minded.  We need to all realize that there will probably be QUITE a few groups of people looking forward to the Free State as a potential launch pad for all sorts of "political and social experimentation".
Title: Re:What type of people are in the FSP?
Post by: Bill on August 01, 2002, 05:03:19 pm

We need to all realize that there will probably be QUITE a few groups of people looking forward to the Free State as a potential launch pad for all sorts of "political and social experimentation".


Hey everyone. I Just joined the discussion group and I'm very interested in the FSP, although a  little afraid of the initial commitment. I don't want to make a promise that I may not have the cahouna's to back up when the time comes. I want to address Stephani's comment here a bit more, perhaps to raise some enthusiasm concerning the number of people who have actually signed up so far. I believe that for every person who makes the committment, there are several people like myself who have a wait and see attitude. I would be more inclined to make a move after the initial influx of hardcore supporters have gained a foothold and can show the rest of us fence sitters that the plan has a viable chance of actually succeeding. I believe that you, the activists in the FSP will be surprised at the number of us, the uncertain hopefuls on the sidelines who will come out of the woodwork in a sort of "second wave" movement once we see a sign of real hope or progress. I am sure that I'll get the usual speal about how the founding fathers sacrificed for what they believed in and I should be a tenth the activist that they were if I really want freedom in my lifetime, but what this project asks of its members is quite a committment. I admire those of you who are willing to put it on the line for this dream, I support and applaud you, but I am unable at this point in my life to stand with you. I'm going to have to wait and see.
Title: Re:What type of people are in the FSP?
Post by: percy, aka tntsmum on August 01, 2002, 05:31:37 pm
Quote
Quote
Hell, you're already 50 to 75% of the way to socialism in the States as it is, I would advise that you wait a few more years, stay put where you are... socialism should be in full swing before you know it!


That doesn't even make sense. Take for example a small group of 30 people. They want to form a strict religious commune, with prayer twice daily, 10% tithing of income, church for 3 hours on Sunday, no dancing, no swearing, etc.  Can these 30 people change the laws of the US so that everyone around them follows these rules? Of course not. But in the Free State, they can form a little walled community that provides its own schooling, own internal welfare, and insists the moral codes be followed as well. THIS is voluntary socialism; giving up VOLUNTARILY for the good of a *select* group.

Quote

I am quite agreeable to people living their lives as they see fit BUT, I have great reservations about setting up socialist communes in the Free State.


Would you hold a gun to their heads to stop them? If you think "there oughta be a law against it", that's exactly what you're advocating.

Quote

I don't know that this would be beneficial to either the socialists


And precisely what are you advocating, when you are presuming to decide what would beneficial to "the socialists"? Shouldn't THEY be allowed to decide what is most beneficial?

Quote

or those who desire freedom and independance, free from demands that we all serve the collective. And no, I am not forgetting that the claimed desire is to simply set up self contained socialist communes.


Just because they want to live their lives a certain way does NOT necessarily mean that they will insist on everyone else doing the same.  

Quote


Quite honestly, let us ask ourselves... If those who feel that the needs & rights of the individual are subserviant to the needs of the collective, when they vote their conscience, what will happen when we try to implement reform through voting?


If we don't have enough people to overcome those votes, we lose.  But if out of fear of losing we start deciding who will be allowed to voluntary associate, and use the power of the state to enforce it, we've already lost. Besides, how are you doing to determine if a particular group of people is a "socialist commune?" Interviews? Socialism police?

Quote

Please, if I have not thought this out thoroughly, someone let me know where I may be going wrong in my thought process. I truly do not want to sound unkind but I simply cannot get past this paradox.


Break it down to its simplist form. In a Free State, socialists communes may form. You may not like it. But are you willing to use force to prevent them from doing so?

What is all this talk about guns to heads and using force? I've had enough of that already, which is why I'm interested in the Free State and sure as heck wouldnt suggest ANY such tactics on others. That's the whole point of this right? Freedom, including fredom of association.... No, I hadn't forgotten that.

DANG! Did I really come off sounding like I think we should wall off the Free State and have thought police roaming?

I thought I was asking for help figuring out what seemed to be a core contradiction... those seeking to serve the collective going to a place where people are mounting an effort to reduce or eliminate requirements on the individual to serve the collective.

You did answer my question, thanks.... sure could have done without the rubber hose though.... :'(
Title: Re:What type of people are in the FSP?
Post by: Elizabeth on August 01, 2002, 06:35:24 pm
I believe that for every person who makes the committment, there are several people like myself who have a wait and see attitude. I would be more inclined to make a move after the initial influx of hardcore supporters have gained a foothold and can show the rest of us fence sitters that the plan has a viable chance of actually succeeding. I believe that you, the activists in the FSP will be surprised at the number of us, the uncertain hopefuls on the sidelines who will come out of the woodwork in a sort of "second wave" movement once we see a sign of real hope or progress.

Hi Bill!  Welcome to the discussion.

Okay, I won't give you the FF spiel, but I will offer this... If the choices are:

1)  Wait and see, but FSP never gets 20,000 because too many people have the same attitude, and so another failed experiment gets chalked up to the libertarian philosophy, further weakening its credibility.

2)  Get out of your comfort zone, make a scary and bold commitment, and get us one step closer to liberty in our lifetime?

*music playing in background*

After all, when you think about it, what's the worst that could happen?  If you sign on, and we don't reach 20,000, you don't go anywhere.  

If you sign on and we do get 20,000, you'll be part of a truly historic movement, a bold experiment in reduction of governmental intervention.  You'll leave your family and friends, but you'll be going with 20,000 other like-minded people, with similar interests.  It'll cost some money to move, but you'll have lots of time to save up and prepare for the move.  There will be people helping each other find jobs, housing, and everything else you could want.  Will it be chaotic?  Sure!  But what good thing is ever easy?
Title: Re:What type of people are in the FSP?
Post by: Elizabeth on August 01, 2002, 06:40:44 pm

You did answer my question, thanks.... sure could have done without the rubber hose though.... :'(


No, no, no -- I'm the one with the rubber hose.  Debra's just the Overlord.
Title: Re:What type of people are in the FSP?
Post by: Eddie_Bradford on August 01, 2002, 06:47:20 pm
Quote

Quote

Quote:
Quite honestly, let us ask ourselves... If those who feel that the needs & rights of the individual are subserviant to the needs of the collective, when they vote their conscience, what will happen when we try to implement reform through voting?

If we don't have enough people to overcome those votes, we lose.  But if out of fear of losing we start deciding who will be allowed to voluntary associate, and use the power of the state to enforce it, we've already lost. Besides, how are you doing to determine if a particular group of people is a "socialist commune?" Interviews? Socialism police?

I think the question here is wheather we should 'encourage' people to join in the first place if we think they're going to vote against us.  Personally I think the type of person who would want to set up a small exclusive society like this wouldn't ultimately vote against us so I think it's fine to encourage this type of person but then again I could be wrong.
-Eddie
Title: Re:What type of people are in the FSP?
Post by: debra on August 01, 2002, 10:12:24 pm

What is all this talk about guns to heads and using force? I've had enough of that already, which is why I'm interested in the Free State and sure as heck wouldnt suggest ANY such tactics on others. That's the whole point of this right? Freedom, including fredom of association.... No, I hadn't forgotten that.

DANG! Did I really come off sounding like I think we should wall off the Free State and have thought police roaming?

I thought I was asking for help figuring out what seemed to be a core contradiction... those seeking to serve the collective going to a place where people are mounting an effort to reduce or eliminate requirements on the individual to serve the collective.

You did answer my question, thanks.... sure could have done without the rubber hose though.... :'(


Sorry, I didn't mean to be so harsh about it.

The "guns to the head" statement is a ... shock-phrase, for want of a better term. So often, people see things they don't like (anything from marijuana use to gay relationships to communes) and say, "There oughta be a law against that."  What they *don't* think about is that by making a law against it, they are literally holding a gun to someone's head for that act, via the police. So I always ask, "Do you find the behavior so distasteful or immoral that you personally would hold a gun to someone's head to make them stop?" They usually answer "no". Then I ask, "Why, then, do you want laws against it, since that's exactly what the police will do?"

I forgot, however, that I'm already preaching to the choir in this forum!  :-[ Mea culpa!
Title: Re:What type of people are in the FSP?
Post by: antayla on August 01, 2002, 11:52:38 pm
>>volunarily give up all of their wealth and earnings to their

collective group which they the distribute however they like.<<

How do you do quotes?

Anyways, that's a pretty good description of what I would call

'voluntary socialism' cept what I had in mind was a little less

drastic :P  I was thinking that this particular collective I had in

mind could pool some money to buy a large piece of land,

then apportion it out according to percentage of contribution,

with a certain amount of community owned property where

public buildings could be built, roads created and a 'rental

property area' with rates controlled by the community could be

set up for communitiarians who had only their skills to offer.  

The association would have to set up their 'internal covenants'

in advance (IE: the community doesn't want weapons carried

on community property, or that funds and resources would be

set aside for a 'public' school system within the community) so

that everything would be out in the open before the property

was purchased.  I figure the system would be more socialist

than communistic, with only enough

income/resources/whatever taken to cover the social costs

(welfare system, libraries, transit, health care, etc.) while the

remainder would be left in the hands of the communitarians

(who could use it to buy more land, invest in their business

etc.)  

Outside corporations would be prohibited from doing business

within the community, according to the charter (although I

daresay if we had some kind of public market, then outside

INDIVIDUALS would be welcome, but they would be restricted

to public areas and have to respect the covenants while on

community area.)  

People who wanted to join the community would have to sign

the same charter and perhaps donate a small part of their land

for public use (such as roads etc.)  at which point they would

also be entitled to the privileges of being within the community.

People who no longer wanted to be in the community could

sell their property back to the commune for the amount they

contributed originally. (Where it could be put up for sale or

developed as the community wished.)  Probably post-charter

creation members would have to pay for the 'publicly' funded

improvements on their land if they left the community, but they

would regain title to the land that they donated to commune

when they joined.

I was also thinking it would be nice to have a truly

representative government...  My idea is that instead of voting

for a candidate that candidate would get pledges.  The more

pledges a candidate had, the higher percentage of

representation he would be able to have behind him.  People

could remove their pledges if the candidate took an action that

the (if that makes any sense :P )

Also part of the charter would be provisions for the state

government to have authority within the community, to carry out

its duty of preserving individual rights. (I think every

'government' needs outside monitoring... be they socialist or

otherwise)

Of course this is a very rough plan and I haven't really talked to

anybody about it much.  I think I'm going to write up a rough

draft and go over the ideas with some friends of mine.
I think the idea I'm striving for is economic freedom as well as

individual freedom.  Because the corporations are more

powerful than the federal government could ever be.  As I see

it the only way to truly get free of corporate rule is to focus more

on individuals and their communities.


.... I wrote all this stuff above a day or two ago... I don't have alot of time to address everything here, but I would think that this community would necessarily have to agree to respect the basic law of the state; namely the libertarian policies that made the commune possible.  I really do consider this free state thing more than just one potential state... I hope that if this experiement works, we will be joined by other states, countries and groups of people who agree with us and are willing to play by the rules of libertarianism.  The UN isn't working because it is circumvented by the multinational corporations and their banks, and until we deal with them, we won't be free.  A very progressive idea to be sure, but important imho.
Title: Re:What type of people are in the FSP?
Post by: Elizabeth on August 02, 2002, 12:14:40 am

How do you do quotes?


If you want to quote a post, you can click on the "quote" button and it will set you up with a reply with the material already quoted.

Or, you can type [ quote ] insert quoted text [ /quote ] manually - but you have to eliminate the spaces inside the brackets, I only did that so you could see it.

Here's where you can find all the codes for posting:
http://forum.freestateproject.org/YaBBHelp/posting.html
Title: Re:What type of people are in the FSP?
Post by: cathleeninsc on August 02, 2002, 02:22:11 pm



Sorry, I didn't mean to be so harsh about it.

The "guns to the head" statement is a ... shock-phrase, for want of a better term...


Your words are definitely "on target". If it seems harsh it is likely because of the dang photo! j/k really!

Cathleen in SC
Title: Re:What type of people are in the FSP?
Post by: percy, aka tntsmum on August 02, 2002, 05:32:07 pm
Quote
Quote


So often, people see things they don't like (anything from marijuana use to gay relationships to communes) and say, "There oughta be a law against that."  What they *don't* think about is that by making a law against it, they are literally holding a gun to someone's head for that act, via the police. So I always ask, "Do you find the behavior so distasteful or immoral that you personally would hold a gun to someone's head to make them stop?" They usually answer "no". Then I ask, "Why, then, do you want laws against it, since that's exactly what the police will do?"

I see now I really did sound like I was going off the deep end; Don't now why I had such a tough time comprehending the "voluntary" aspect of these communities. Thanks for straightening things out for me.
Title: Re:What type of people are in the FSP?
Post by: Uncle Deedah on August 04, 2002, 09:53:56 pm
I would like to respond to Bill.

I too am hesitent to commit. I am leaning towards signing up despite the fact that my wife said "Have fun in New Hampshire, Deedah" when I told her about the FSP. (I live in Florida, I moved here to get away from winter!)

But, like I said, I am leaning towards signing up. (simply because if you read the estimates it's not something you would really need to actually DO for a few years) Hell, if I truly believed in my heart and soul RIGHT NOW that this thing would work I would be there, just to be part of something bigger than myself.

So...from one fence sitter to another, you go first!
Title: Re:What type of people are in the FSP?
Post by: debra on August 04, 2002, 11:39:53 pm
If it'll help:

"I dare you! I *double* dare you!!"

;D
Title: Re:What type of people are in the FSP?
Post by: antayla on August 05, 2002, 03:36:33 pm
It will only work if people sign up... I figure, what have I got to lose?  It can't be any worse than slowly becoming a slave to a system you can't fight alone.  Besides, I owe it to my children (when I have them anyways :P)
Title: Re:What type of people are in the FSP?
Post by: Uncle Deedah on August 05, 2002, 04:05:15 pm
A minor nit-pick...

Actually, it will only work if people MOVE. Signing up without intending to follow through is as bad, if not worse, than not signing up, methinks. I'll sign up, but I won't do it untill I am sure that I will indeed follow through with my commitment.

Title: Re:What type of people are in the FSP?
Post by: Bill on August 05, 2002, 04:48:50 pm
Thanks everyone for weighing in, but I believe that each of you in and around this project has the belief that it's already too late to save the good old U.S.A. I believe that its not too late to impact the nation in the way that the National LP had always hoped to. We all hold out that gradually and eventually we will win enough influence in just one state to effect policy and set an example for the rest of the nation, and when they get jealous about how kick ass our one free state is, the rest will run to Libertarian principles like a bunch of falling dominoes. The difference with FSP'ers is, that you have given up on the national approach as proposed by the national LP and are takeing steps to accelerate the first state to fall part of the plan. I do think its brilliant and it will work, I'm certain. But I havn't given up on the national LP's approach that the   first state is really just the beginning! Bravo to all of you for helping the first domino to fall. I still yet may join in, but I still hold out hope for the nation as a whole. P.S. that is why I get so rattled when I read about talk of secession! I havn't given up on the other 49!
Title: Re:What type of people are in the FSP?
Post by: phylinidaho on August 05, 2002, 07:38:47 pm

Bravo to all of you for helping the first domino to fall. I still yet may join in, but I still hold out hope for the nation as a whole. P.S. that is why I get so rattled when I read about talk of secession! I havn't given up on the other 49!


It was my understanding when I signed up that we hope to set an example for the rest of the country. Any talk of secession (IMO) is only as a last resort, and intended more to shake up the national government and make it realize that a return to constitutional principles is necessary.
Title: Re:What type of people are in the FSP?
Post by: antayla on August 06, 2002, 04:30:47 am
I guess I don't think that it's too late to save the US, but I think there are a lot of people in the United states that are happy with their current system of government... at least they are willing to give up responsibility in order to have a big government to take care of them.  FSP as advertised  says "liberty in our lifetime."  maybe someday the United States will become all that we hope it could be but we don't have the time to waste... besides the United States is doing a lot of really evil things...  Or should I say greedy things.  Even if we do get freedom in our country, it is unlikely that the US will quit warring on these little third world countries in order to strip their countries of all their resources and virtually enslave their people.  I'm tired of being part of a country that kills people for their stuff, allows multinational corporations to dictate policy, and takes the power to decide destiny out of the hands of the people who are living it.  There are times for military action, but if I'm going to fight a war, I would rather pick up a weapon myself and fight rather than have the government buy soldiers to fight in my name.  of course I also think that most war is entirely preventable, but we do live in reality after all :P

as to signing up / moving out... well, I don't make promises I won't/can't keep.  but I understand that point...  It would be a sad thing if half our people didn't show up :(
Title: Re:What type of people are in the FSP?
Post by: phylinidaho on August 06, 2002, 06:46:32 am


as to signing up / moving out... well, I don't make promises I won't/can't keep.  but I understand that point...  It would be a sad thing if half our people didn't show up :(


Question: Why do you show up as "FSP Member" if you are reluctant to sign up?
Title: Re:What type of people are in the FSP?
Post by: antayla on August 06, 2002, 02:58:06 pm


Question: Why do you show up as "FSP Member" if you are reluctant to sign up?


I'm not reluctant.  I'm just recognizing that there are risks.  And I've already signed up.


Title: Re:What type of people are in the FSP?
Post by: TomPaine on August 08, 2002, 01:26:17 pm
I'm anxious to dive in. I consider myself to be libertarian, but not an anarchist. I feel that some taxes are necessary to promote the general welfare, and provide for the common defense. I'm tired of giving the lions share of my earnings to a government that is only interested in expanding itself. In short, I see my country collapsing in on itself, and I'm pissed because there's nothing I can do to stop it. Then again, maybe   WE  can do something about it.
Title: Re:What type of people are in the FSP?
Post by: Doc on August 09, 2002, 11:37:59 pm
I still hold out hope for the nation as a whole. P.S. that is why I get so rattled when I read about talk of secession! I havn't given up on the other 49!

I am a lifelong Arizona desert rat. I have purchased the property of my dreams far out on a desert hillside where I hope to live out my life.

At the same time, if I have to move to a cold place to gain liberty, then that is exactly what I will do.

What I'm hoping is that once a Free State is established, its freedom will appear almost irresistable -- especially to citizens of western states such as Arizona. That way, I can both be free and live in the place and in the manner I really want.

Barring that, believe that I will be looking into the residency laws of our chosen state *very closely*, with a view to spending as much time in my home state as possible yet still be a citizen of whatever state ends up becoming the Free State. (Or, *the first* Free State, as I prefer to think of it!)

Are there others in the project thinking along these lines?
Title: Re:What type of people are in the FSP?
Post by: Steve on August 11, 2002, 10:57:26 am
In answer to the thread topic question, "What type of people are in the FSP?", I have found that the vast majority of posters (who may or may not be representative of the members) are mainstream libertarians with slightly right-wing leanings but tolerant toward left-libertarian issues.  There have been relatively few ill-humored, dogmatic posters.  Personally, I am a half-black, part-native-american, atheist, nursed-on-Cato-policy-reports, evolutionary anarcho-capitalist from California.  Though I am more concerned about left-libertarian issues (and also taxes!), I have had little ideological disagreement with any of our comrades.

The most significant division I have seen so far here is between those favoring large, empty, rural, western states and those favoring small, denser, more urban northeastern states.  There is a slight political correlation here similar to the voting split in the 2000 election.  I do hope that the chosen state will have both significant urban areas and forests and fields for hunting.

On the topic of local socialism, the operative word is SUBSIDIARITY, which is used a lot here in Europe, where they are having similar constitutional discussions to those in the US a couple centuries ago.  Subsidiarity means deciding questions at the lowest appropriate level: federal, national, regional, local, community, family, individual.  At a low (local-community) level, socialism is supported by freedom of association.  At a higher level, when one can no longer easily move to escape it, socialism becomes tyranny.
Title: Re:What type of people are in the FSP?
Post by: pitterpat on August 12, 2002, 01:18:38 am
  My husband and I just found out about the FSP.  We have been reading and researching ever since.  And up until tonight, I have not had any reservations about picking up my life and moving to wherever we all decide to make a stand.  But now I'm confused  :-\    

You see, I was under the impression that we were going to be involved in the FSP to recupperate our freedom.  Not flaunt it to the rest of the country.  What I mean by that is I thought we were going to try and get back the freedoms that our fore fathers fought and died for!  But from what I've been reading, everyone is more interested in starting their own communes and little communities instead of keeping their eyes on that target.  But then again, I may have completely misunderstood the whole reason for the FSP then.  

Also, it seems that everyone is forgetting that when we all move to the Free State, we will be moving into cities/towns/communities that are already living under the government as it is now.  It is going to take time to change all of that.  Many many years!  That's what the committment is for.  If we go in there and try and just take over....we'll be the laugh of the whole country instead of the hope of this great nation.  

Title: Re:What type of people are in the FSP?
Post by: Steve on August 12, 2002, 05:36:05 am
I agree with Mouseborg, and would add that to get a real feeling even for the minority of active posters, you have to read many months worth of posting.  People join the FSP, post excitedly for a few weeks, and then calm down and go about their normal lives.  Pay attention to the general discussion, and ignore the noise, which has included (very little really) talk of violence, secession, racism, and recently socialism.

Anyway, we should be keeping our eyes on the prize, and talking more practical strategy and less about theory, if we really want to make this happen.  Personally, I have invested too much time and money already for failure to be acceptable.

We need to keep reapeating that the mission of the FSP is merely to get 20K libertarians to move to single place, so that their voices will be heard.  What they then say and do is then their business, but you can predict that it will be the usual libertarian stuff.
Title: Re:What type of people are in the FSP?
Post by: Bill on August 12, 2002, 10:13:03 am

Pay attention to the general discussion, and ignore the noise, which has included (very little really) talk of violence, secession, racism, and recently socialism.
You said it, Steve. I can back you up on this. At first, I was somewhat shocked about some of the reactionary/alarmist/militant rhetoric that I saw some participants spewing, and still are spewing in some cases. But for the most part now, I see the consistent remarks of a core few key people standing out amongst these very occasional outbursts.
Anyway, we should be keeping our eyes on the prize, and talking more practical strategy and less about theory, if we really want to make this happen. We need to keep reapeating that the mission of the FSP is merely to get 20K libertarians to move to single place, so that their voices will be heard.  What they then say and do is then their business, but you can predict that it will be the usual libertarian stuff.
Thanks for the reality check! I am not yet a member (maybe soon) but am very excited about the mechanics of what to do once the BIG MOVE actually takes place: How will we accomplish policy changes, win city councils, increase voter registration, achieve permanent party status, overcome ballot access barriers, etc..... but I have found myself reacting to secessionists and militia types screaming about the violent crushing of our "rebellion" if we should dare to try it. I think I'm through feeding those fires!
Title: Re:What type of people are in the FSP?
Post by: antayla on August 12, 2002, 03:37:21 pm

talk of violence, secession, racism, and recently socialism.


I never suggested that the free state be socialist.  I just see that the enemies of freedom are more than governmental, and we need to protect ourselves from corporate influence on education, health care, etc.  I want there to be alternatives to corporate schools (which you know they will start) when people don't have time to teach their own kids.  

But you are right, we need more people, and that should be our first concern.  But we do need people to know what kind of topics and controversies they will be working with, because no one wants to commit without knowing what the risks are.

Title: Re:What type of people are in the FSP?
Post by: admin on August 12, 2002, 08:01:50 pm
The way you protect yourself from a corporation is to take your business elsewhere.

Charles
Title: Re:What type of people are in the FSP?
Post by: Mega Joule on August 15, 2002, 02:50:09 am
Quote
Quote
author=pitterpat
My husband and I just found out about the FSP.  We have been reading and researching ever since.  And up until tonight, I have not had any reservations about picking up my life and moving to wherever we all decide to make a stand.  But now I'm confused  :-\    

Quote from: MouseBorg

Please keep in mind that many of the posts you see do not actually represent the FSP... Some are actually quite the opposite of what the FSPs stated purpose is, especially those promoting violent approaches.


We definitely are not violent.  We are quite the opposite, as we want to promote letting everyone have the freedom to do as they see fit provided do no harm to others.

Quote

As often happens, the vast majority of posting, especially the loudest posting, is done by a very small minority.


Keep in mind that this particular format of forum is fairly new to this group and that the group is growing, so naturally there is a great deal of discussion, often on ideas that have not been hashed out, at least by the newer members.

Quote

Also, in some cases, I suspect a few are just blowing off steam, or stating how they think the ideal world should be.


Indeed!  Ideology is healthy and productive.  We will have to settle down to practical issues when we reach 20,000 and actually begin to work within a state, but we will have no idea which directions we want to go if we do not spend some time with our noses to the philosophical grindstone determining which issues are most important to our ultimate success.  

Quote

Much is obviously pie in the sky stuff, and as such is simply running in intellectual circles, but for some, it is great excercise, and keeps them out of the hair of people who need to get things done.


Productive minds require exercise.  If you think some of us “noisy ones” out here may seem to represent a radical fringe, well that’s where you are right.  Like I always say, “Without the fringe how will you know where the middle is?”

Quote

The folks that are genuinely serious about follow through are, I suspect, going to turn out to be, for the most part, the more level headed sort, who can make concrete plans and carry those out.


One can simultaneously be an outspoken element of the radical fringe and a follow-through sort.

Quote

The louder ones... well, they are likely to still be doing precisely what they are doing presently when that time comes & passes.  ;D


“He don’t know me very well do he.”
Tweety Bird


Oh BTW, don’t you think the “Give me liberty or give my death” line was a bit outspoken?  I count myself in good company with radicals and rebels past and present.

Meg
Title: Re:What type of people are in the FSP?
Post by: Dex Sinister on August 15, 2002, 04:28:58 am

As often happens, the vast majority of posting, especially the loudest posting, is done by a very small minority. I expect a few will be weeded out as time passes, so the various forums serve a prudent purpose, no matter how far out there some may seem.  :)


And also bear in mind that even the most outspoken of posters pause every so often to remind the people that they speak with that they support and defend the rights of others to disagree with them, or order their lives differently.

Don't be too rattled, Pitterpat - all it proves is that people who love freedom span an interesting range of likes and dislikes. But we're all here together to support each other's freedom to do so.

Dex }:>=-
Title: Re:What type of people are in the FSP?
Post by: Byron on August 17, 2002, 08:25:08 am
Me?  I haven't committed yet.  Need to have a better idea on the time line.  I have prior committments...like my elderly sick mother which I will fulfill.  Once that is out of the way, I'll move...anywhere...for the chance of freedom.

Professionally, I'm an emergency registered nurse.  The demographics in all areas of the US point towards my making a good living wherever there are sick people or people who don't read the directions on machinery. :o

Politically, I'm a rational anarchist as defined by Robert Heinlein.  I don't need a government to tell me what to do.
The reason that I do not commit murder, rape, robbery or fraud has nothing to do with the laws against these acts.  However, I'm rational about it.  I realize that there are those among us who do, in fact, need a government...as a security blanket, if nothing more.  Those laws that I find tolerable...I will tolerate.  Those I find intolerable, I will ignore as far as possible.
Title: Re:What type of people are in the FSP?
Post by: bud on August 17, 2002, 10:08:54 pm
Byron,

We are in a similar circumstance. I have an elderly mother who would not adjust to a change in location or lifestyle at this stage of her life.  Similarly also, I was a health care professional for 30 years, but I decided I'd had enough of that, and I won't be going back into practice anywhere.
I don't know what I consider myself politically--but anti-state sums it up fairly well.

One of the things I am finding in this forum is a lot of people who insist on a government so there is a mechanism  to force their ideas of morality, proper behavior, and standards on everyone else, even though their freedom, life and property are not in danger.

It appears they think the Constitution contains an article that guarantees them the right not to be offended, so there has to be laws and a strong-arm entity to ensure that.  

I like your approach to intolerable laws.  Problem is, I wonder if you would be given the opportunity to ignore the intolerable ones.  Apparently, the operating theory is that, under a democracy,  it's OK for the majority to vote things into existance that violate other peoples' rights.  That's where we are in the US right now.  A majority votes that it's OK to rob the productive people in the country of the fruits of their labor and redistribute it to the lazy or unproductive ones.  It's OK for the majority to decide that people can't take certain chemical substances into their bodies, but other chemicals are permitted. And finally, if a person does these proscribed things, the state has the right to lock you in a cage, steal your property, ruin your family and business, or kill you.

I wonder why people think a democracy is an acceptible form of government.  The virtues of the early American Republic was NOT that it was a  democracy--it was that it
guaranteed the rights of every individual, and put it in writing.

The next illogical response to this post will be--the free state can't be free without laws and some way  to enforce them.  The implication apparently is that either there will be a lot of laws controlling every aspect of a person's life, or there will be none at all.  Some peoples' concept of freedom is beyond me.  Laws don't stop criminals from plying their trade.  And many and more intrusive laws don't do anything to turn sociopaths into model citizens.
Here's an idea.  Everybody get your own personal little "state", make yourself King or Queen or Emperor, or dictator or whatever makes you feel comfortable, and you can have any damn laws you want, because you won't be violating anyones' rights-- unless they volunteer to submit to your tyranny.  

Are we going to repeat the errors of the past in the new free state? Free State? Free of what?
Title: Re:What type of people are in the FSP?
Post by: Halo on August 19, 2002, 10:52:35 pm
Mouseborg,

Anyone looking at that description can easily see the course the United States has followed, right down to where we are now - somewhere between the next to last and last stages, depending on your level of pessimism. The thing is that it isn't a linear progression; by the time a country gets to the apathetic stage it's a rapidly descending slide from which there is no recovery. The "system" is irrevocably broken. Try convincing any member of Congress, save someone like Ron Paul, that we have a government  operating outside the limits of the Constitution. See how far you get. That's why we need the FSP.
Title: Re:What type of people are in the FSP?
Post by: The Jackalope on August 20, 2002, 12:57:01 am
Well...there is at least one tattooist.  ;D

Oh yeah...I'm teetering between anarchocapitalist and minarchist. It goes back and forth...for me...ah it's a confusing lot in life  ;)
Title: Re:What type of people are in the FSP?
Post by: Mega Joule on August 20, 2002, 02:17:06 am

Well...there is at least one tattooist.  ;D
Great my older kids will be wanting to make appointments when we get there I'm sure.  Do you do Winnie-the-Pooh?  My 23 year old daughter has one Pooh already.  :)


Meg
Title: Re:What type of people are in the FSP?
Post by: Steve on August 20, 2002, 10:17:27 am
I do hope that next time we attend a big convention, e.g. of the LP, that we expose some skin and wear FSP logo tattoos:  
http://dmoz.org/Shopping/Niche/Bodyart/Tattoo/Temporary/
Title: Re:What type of people are in the FSP?
Post by: Reaper on August 20, 2002, 10:53:41 am
I do hope that next time we attend a big convention, e.g. of the LP, that we expose some skin and wear FSP logo tattoos:  
http://dmoz.org/Shopping/Niche/Bodyart/Tattoo/Temporary/

ROFL

How much skin you have in mind?  

We seem to have a nudist faction who could probably attract a LOT of publicity!
Title: Re:What type of people are in the FSP?
Post by: Elizabeth on August 20, 2002, 02:33:28 pm
I requested body art designs on the main group and only got one submission -- I'm ready to buy temp tattooos as soon as we get a good design.

Needs to be 2x2.
Title: Re:What type of people are in the FSP?
Post by: Mega Joule on August 21, 2002, 11:54:21 am
Quote
Quote from: Reaper
ROFL

How much skin you have in mind?  

We seem to have a nudist faction who could probably attract a LOT of publicity!
[/quote


I can just see that on national news.  What a hoot.  Me, EJ, and few others and we make big headlines.  Imagine the live interviews. ;D ;D
I bet reporters would be scrabbling to "uncover" the truth about the FSP.

Meg
Title: Re:What type of people are in the FSP?
Post by: Reaper on August 21, 2002, 02:30:55 pm
 ;D

Yeah, then after that maybe we can do "Girls of the FSP" or "Guys of the FSP" calendar for a fund raiser!!  :o

;D
Title: Re:What type of people are in the FSP?
Post by: Tim on August 21, 2002, 10:16:43 pm
I'm a noob to message boards, but this is a quote from someone that makes me feel a lot better.  Just wanted to say thank you for not scaring me like some of these other people.
 
"Pay attention to the general discussion, and ignore the noise, which has included (very little really) talk of violence, secession, racism, and recently socialism.

Anyway, we should be keeping our eyes on the prize, and talking more practical strategy and less about theory"

I'll read a few more nights, but if you really are non-violent and not committed to secession then I'll sign up.
Title: Re:What type of people are in the FSP?
Post by: JasonPSorens on August 21, 2002, 10:43:28 pm
Yep, just read our FAQ and it shows what we are all about. :)

http://www.freestateproject.org/faqs.htm (http://www.freestateproject.org/faqs.htm)
Title: Re:What type of people are in the FSP?
Post by: percy, aka tntsmum on August 22, 2002, 08:22:34 am

I'm a noob to message boards, but this is a quote from someone that makes me feel a lot better.  Just wanted to say thank you for not scaring me like some of these other people.

"Pay attention to the general discussion, and ignore the noise, which has included (very little really) talk of violence, secession, racism, and recently socialism.

Anyway, we should be keeping our eyes on the prize, and talking more practical strategy and less about theory"

I'll read a few more nights, but if you really are non-violent and not committed to secession then I'll sign up.

Tim, hello and welcome... it's great to have people joining the discussion who seem to have a level head. We really are not violent and are Not commited to secession. Sometimes some of the posts Do shake me up a bit, but I keep reminding myself a handful of people are posting and yet look at our numbers (908 so far but obviously that will keep increasing). It's just the more colorful members that tend to do a lot of posting. The other 800+ members I'm assuming are just folks who want liberty in their lifetime - pure and simple; no axe to grind about public nudity, private RPG ownership or any other such thing.
Title: Re:What type of people are in the FSP?
Post by: cathleeninsc on August 22, 2002, 01:18:38 pm

I keep reminding myself a handful of people are posting and yet look at our numbers (908 so far but obviously that will keep increasing). It's just the more colorful members that tend to do a lot of posting. The other 800+ members I'm assuming are just folks who want liberty in their lifetime - pure and simple; no axe to grind about public nudity, private RPG ownership or any other such thing.


We are about tolerance, unlike the airline who fired the employee for testifying in a court of law that she had broken the law. And since we are about tolerance, we have among our ranks some who care very strongly about a variety of issues that may be politically or socially incorrect.  But we are tolerant.

Cathleen in SC
Title: Re:What type of people are in the FSP?
Post by: Steve on August 22, 2002, 02:04:47 pm
Quote
Tim the Lurker wrote:
I'll read a few more nights, but if you really are non-violent and not committed to secession then I'll sign up.


I am the FSP Secretary, and a fairly active member of the Publicity Committee.  Trust me: as an employee of Raytheon, the US's third-largest defense company, I would be out of the FSP instantly if it were anything else.  
Title: Re:What type of people are in the FSP?
Post by: LaissezFaire on August 22, 2002, 02:07:19 pm

I'll read a few more nights, but if you really are non-violent and not committed to secession then I'll sign up.


Why do you equate secession with violence?
Title: Re:What type of people are in the FSP?
Post by: LaissezFaire on August 22, 2002, 02:09:17 pm

Trust me: as an employee of Raytheon, the US's third-largest defense company, I would be out of the FSP instantly if it were anything else.  


Don't take this the wrong way, but don't you see a moral conflict between your employer and libertarianism?  Maybe not, just posing the question.
Title: Re:What type of people are in the FSP?
Post by: Tim on August 22, 2002, 03:14:42 pm


Why do you equate secession with violence?


Sorry if my sentence was confusing, but I didn't intend "and" to equate the two.  Those are just the two biggest turnoffs for me.  Now that I'm thinking about it, there is a good chance secession would draw violence.

Anyway, I see secession as a very poor choice.  A free state should be noticeably better than the others after about a decade.  Hopefully, other people will emulate the free state, not fight it.          
Title: Re:What type of people are in the FSP?
Post by: Steve on August 23, 2002, 03:31:16 pm
Quote
Quote
Quote from: Steve on August 22, 2002, 09:04:47 pm    
Trust me: as an employee of Raytheon, the US's third-largest defense company, I would be out of the FSP instantly if it were anything else.  

Don't take this the wrong way, but don't you see a moral conflict between your employer and libertarianism?  Maybe not, just posing the question.


I fully expected that question.  If you want to take it deeper we'll have to start a separate thread, but the short answer is:
By the way, while I started out in defense (my area of engineering is often applied to missiles), I have for the last 6 years worked only in the commercial area.
Title: Re:What type of people are in the FSP?
Post by: 5pectre on September 01, 2002, 08:17:27 pm
I'm a pro-business anti-corporation anti-pigdog pro-individual choice pro-abortion anti-religous fundamentalist anti-state pro-drugs anti-taxation anti-military anti-handgun pro-assault weapon anti-republican anti-democrat anti-pollution pro-volunteer anti-imposed authority pro-education anti-ignorance anti-majority tyranny anti-minority tyranny anti-financial speculation anti-exploitation anti-poverty pro-rich pro-poor Libertarian Socialist just looking for freedom.
Title: Re:What type of people are in the FSP?
Post by: foadi on September 01, 2002, 10:08:58 pm

Libertarian Socialist

Socialism is a stage of society in Marxist theory transitional between capitalism and communism.  Although you appear to be a socialist on an economic level, you claimed to be anti-state.  There would still be a state in a socialist society.  What is your case for refering to yourself as a socialist?
Title: Re:What type of people are in the FSP?
Post by: 5pectre on September 02, 2002, 10:32:16 am
socialism doesn't imply either statism or marxism (despite what marx may have said).

for the record, i am anti-marx. his whole 'dictatorship of the proletariat' blows.

in history, all anarchists have been socialist. see below for a (non-comprehensive) list.

http://flag.blackened.net/liberty/libertarians.html
Title: Re:What type of people are in the FSP?
Post by: 5pectre on September 02, 2002, 10:42:58 am
i've just found a great url to explain my position:

http://flag.blackened.net/liberty/libsoc.html

hopefully this will help you understand, i too was a right libertarian/"anarcho-capitalist" until a couple of years ago (in fact about the age you are now).
Title: Re:What type of people are in the FSP?
Post by: debra on September 02, 2002, 10:52:32 am
5pectre, foadi, I started a new thread for you guys in Libertarian Politics (Socialist Anarchy vs Market Anarchy). I would love to see a thoughtful debate between the two flavors of anarchy. Thanks!!

Title: Re:What type of people are in the FSP?
Post by: Mega Joule on September 02, 2002, 12:51:15 pm
Quote
Quote from: 5pectre

in history, all anarchists have been socialist. see below for a (non-comprehensive) list.


Not ALL.  Lysander Spooner was anarchists of high acclaim, but was clearly NOT socialist.

Meg
Title: Re:What type of people are in the FSP?
Post by: 5pectre on September 02, 2002, 01:22:05 pm
true, but neither was he a capitalist, he was (as the url said) critical of concetrations of power (the state,capitalists) and wealth (capitalists,state).

s/all/the great majority/g

Title: Re:What type of people are in the FSP?
Post by: Midway76 on September 22, 2002, 04:30:21 pm
 ::)  Perhaps I AM in the wrong place.  I am most certainly NOT non-violent.  I will be as violent as required to protect myself and those I love as is necessary.  I am, however, non-aggressive in that I will tolerate a lot of ideas about which I do not personally subscribe.  I do find all the pseudo-intellectual political labelling quite amusing as if it makes any difference what you call yourself since all the labels are just generalizations anyway.  What really matters is what you believe and act upon.  I find it especially amusing to see people quote Heinlein and then define themselves as non-violent, when most of his writings involved the protagonists being very violent in support of their beliefs.  Perhaps I should "unsign up".
Title: Re:What type of people are in the FSP?
Post by: Midway76 on September 22, 2002, 06:08:57 pm
"If attacked, I apply as much violence as possible, no holds barred. I see no contradiction to this and Heinlein's writings. "   That was my point, Heinlein was definitely not non-violent. Perhaps you are correct about the confusion about what it means to be non-violent.  I personally think most posting here really mean they are non-aggressive in that they don't go out of their way to force others to accept their values.  For instance, Gandhi was non-aggressive, but not non-violent.

This would not be the first time I have been confused in my life, nor, I am sure, the last. ;D
Title: Re:What type of people are in the FSP?
Post by: Steve on September 23, 2002, 03:16:28 pm
Quote
Midway76 wrote:
Perhaps I AM in the wrong place.  I am most certainly NOT non-violent.  I will be as violent as required to protect myself and those I love as is necessary.


Then you are in the right place.  I would think that the difference between non-violence and non-aggression is old hat to most of the libertarians assembled here.  Otherwise one would be a bit confused by the LP's non-aggression pledge and their support for the unfettered right to bear arms.  I will have to periodically repeat the admonishment: do not confuse the opinions of a handful of frequent posters with those of the 1000+ FSP members.

Quote
MouseBorg wrote:
If attacked, I apply as much violence as possible, no holds barred.


When someone aggresses against you, you are entitled only to the minimum amount of force to defend yourself, and only to compensation equal to your damages.  You don't get to tell the unarmed intruder in your house, "I've always wanted to kill somebody, and you just made my day!" and shoot him repeatedly in the back.  If I punch you on the nose and walk away, you are not entitled to then jump me and beat me to a pulp.  If you retaliate with more force than necessary, you have yourself committed an injustice.  I refer the interested reader to Randy Barnett's "The Structure of Liberty".  

(By the way, for those involved in the what-is-anarchism discussion, Barnett is an anarcho-capitalist, and webmaster of the Lysander Spooner shrine:
http://www.lysanderspooner.org
sorryDebrapleasedon'thurtme)

Having said all that, your emotional reaction (retaliate with maximum force) is a viable, rational deterrent strategy encoded in your genes by evolution.  "Don't mess with that guy--he's got a temper."  Problem is, the strategy only works until the bluff is called, and hawk meets hawk....
Title: Re:What type of people are in the FSP?
Post by: Mega Joule on October 04, 2002, 11:22:16 pm
Quote
Quote from: MouseBorg

You don't get to tell the unarmed intruder in your house, "I've always wanted to kill somebody, and you just made my day!" and shoot him repeatedly in the back.


Of course if you want to help you future case court you will speak in a loud voice and repeat things like, “Please don’t hurt me.  I don’t want to have to shoot you.”  This of course is while you are drawing your weapon and holding the attacker/intruder at gun point.

Quote

A common local saying is 'save the last round to make sure'. The general idea is to prevent one from being sued by the criminal afterwards (though their family can still sue, but the witness aspect is a bit sketchy for them at that point.)


Better yet have extra magazines at the ready and practice extracting and reloading before you need to.

Quote

Another local problem resulting in such situations is folks tweaked out on meth. Theres a lot of empty area here, and theres quite a going enterprise in manufacturing the stuff locally. I couldn't care less if someone uses the stuff, however when they decide to involve me (unwillingly) in their life by assault or B&E, I'm not gonna waste time talking nice to them. Armed or unarmed, they present a clear threat to ones life, as is true under the influence of certain other chemicals as well. Anyone having dealt with this knows precisely what I'm talking about.


Reportedly, they do not stop coming at you so you need to be prepared to unload the whole magazine.

Quote

This is also why one is best to research not only the firearm(s) one chooses to keep, but more importantly, the effectiveness of the loads said critter can use. One shot stopping power is important, as one may not get a second. A basic concept of firearms is that one never points such at something one does not intend to completely destroy.


This is a critical point.  NEVER, use any caliber less then .32 for self-defense.  It is the minimum caliber for possible one-shot stopping power and that is not a guarantee.  You are better off with a .38, .357, or above.  The minimum I will carry is my .38 special revolver, but I prefer a .45 semi-auto.   As far as ammo is concerned, I use jacketed hollow point because it is more effective at stopping the attacker and is less likely to penetrate the intruder and continue on to harm someone else.  They even sell special “self-defense” rounds specifically for that purpose.  Whether you only keep a gun at home for break-ins or you carry concealed, know your weapon and practice regularly so you are prepared to use it if needed.  

Meg
Title: Re:What type of people are in the FSP?
Post by: Dex Sinister on October 05, 2002, 01:45:46 am

That was my point, Heinlein was definitely not non-violent. Perhaps you are correct about the confusion about what it means to be non-violent.  I personally think most posting here really mean they are non-aggressive in that they don't go out of their way to force others to accept their values.  For instance, Gandhi was non-aggressive, but not non-violent.


Well, that's possible, though Aikido generally refers to itself as a “non-violent” marital art even though aikidoka are not the least bit bothered by you smashing yourself into the ground after they throw you. Non-aggressing might be even better.

It’s a funny thing, though – you generally have to put a good deal of effort into learning violence, in order to have the option available to settle something the least violent way possible. (Otherwise, you simply don’t possess as many options.)

That said, I’m very non-aggressing, but see nothing contradictory in asserting that sometimes the most aiki [in harmony] thing to do is to shoot someone until they very thoroughly “stop.”

Dex }:>=-
Title: Re:What type of people are in the FSP?
Post by: Penfist on October 16, 2002, 10:25:48 am
Quote
That said, I’m very non-aggressing, but see nothing contradictory in asserting that sometimes the most aiki [in harmony] thing to do is to shoot someone until they very thoroughly “stop.”


That's a statement I'll toast!
Title: Re:What type of people are in the FSP?
Post by: 5pectre on November 01, 2002, 09:58:03 pm
antayla - i like your idea, perhaps you should start a thread relating to how you think a libertarian socialist commune would work?