Free State Project Forum

New Hampshire -- The "Live Free or Die" State => Moving & Housing => Topic started by: Tracy Saboe on February 26, 2004, 05:21:53 pm

Title: Grafton
Post by: Tracy Saboe on February 26, 2004, 05:21:53 pm
What are local property taxes in Grafton? And what is the potential for entirely eliminating them?

What does housing typically cost in Grafton? Could I get housing for less then $500/month? Currently my wife and I live in a 1 bedroom house, with a full basement and pay about $460 or so for it. It was on the low end of Sioux Falls, real estate -- about $60,000 or so. Can housing be found for that price?

What's the potential for entirely eliminating that planning board? (I know they're ellected officials which is presumably better then appointed boards, but what's the potential for eliminating it entirely.)

What's the potential for entirely dismantling the public school system in Grafton and cutting taxes allong with it, so individuals in the town can pursue more free market alternatives?

What's the potential for eliminating all the building codes and regulations, (which would enable houses to be built for cheeper.)

Bottom line. Aproxemately how much would I need to make in a month to live in Grafton? Would $1500 be enough? Would $2000?

Are some free staters potentially thinking about purchasing some of that land and building housing complexes on some of that property?

I'm excited about this. The No UN zone makes me happy, and hopefully we can completely dismantle most of the government there that already exists. It sounds like one of the sellect-men is already fairly libertarian and another is quasi-libertarian, so we would just have to try and oppose the one that's more statist initially.

What county is Grafton located in? We should try to locate in the surounding areas of Grafton if possible as well.

I'm confident that buy the year 2006 Grafton can become a "libertopia" of sorts. not as many people vote in the off-year ellections, so that's the year we could finish downsizing government there to its bare bones.

If somebody wanted to donate to this project, where would they send it? Does the Free Town Project, have a website of its own, with all its stated goals for downsizing the local government?

Tracy
Title: Re:Grafton
Post by: freedomroad on February 27, 2004, 03:04:20 am
Quote
What are local property taxes in Grafton?


They are average by NH standards.  Check out this page for info on all of the towns in NH -
http://www.nhes.state.nh.us/elmi/communpro.htm

From the Graton page,
Total Population Community County
2001                   1,149         82,589

2002 Total Tax Rate $28.64
2002 Equalization Ratio 74.9
2002 Full Value Tax Rate $21.54

The town has:
Public Library Grafton Public (if you could get rid of that you could save)
Police Department Full-time (making it part-time would save money)
Fire Department Volunteer (getting rid of this would save money)
Town Fire Insurance Rating 9/9 (the fire department must not do a good job because the fire rating is terrible, i.e. put out your own fire)
Emergency Medical Service Volunteer (nobody will vote to get rid of this and it likely uses the same building as the fire department)

Type of Government Selectmen
Annual Budget 2000 $578,402
Planning Board Elected
Industrial Plans Reviewed By Planning Board
Zoning Ordinance No Board
Master Plan 1987
Capitol Improvement Plan Yes
Mandatory Recycling Program Yes


In NH they don't seem to mind paying the government workers zero so you might be able to lower the selectmen pay to $100 per year.  Removing the planning board would save money.  Removing the master plan and capitol improvement plan would both save money (at least down the road).  Ending the mandatory recycling program would also save money.

And what is the potential for entirely eliminating them?
None.  Even if you were able to find a way to pay for the roads, eliminate the fire and police, you would still have to pay state property taxes untill the state laws are changed.

Quote
What does housing typically cost in Grafton?


2000 Census Housing Costs  
Median Value, Owner-Occupied Housing $81,300
Median Gross Rent (monthly) $500


Quote
Could I get housing for less then $500/month?

Sure, but not after a couple years (because of the build up of FSP members) unless someone builds special housing for FSP members.  Don't forget, there are always pre-made homes and trailers.

Quote
(I know they're ellected officials which is presumably better then appointed boards, but what's the potential for eliminating it entirely.)

Very high if 200-300 libertarians move to the town.

Quote
What's the potential for entirely dismantling the public school system in Grafton


The Grafton page says that it does not have any schools.  The kids must go to near-by schools.

Quote
What's the potential for eliminating all the building codes and regulations.
I think there might be state codes in NH (?)

Quote
Are some free staters potentially thinking about purchasing some of that land and building housing complexes on some of that property?

Yes, and I read about it in online versions of print newspapers.

Quote
What county is Grafton located in? We should try to locate in the surounding areas of Grafton if possible as well.

Get this, Grafton is in Grafton County.

Quote
If somebody wanted to donate to this project, where would they send it? Does the Free Town Project, have a website of its own, with all its stated goals for downsizing the local government?

All I know about is this,
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Free_Town_Project/
Title: Re:Grafton Links
Post by: freedomroad on February 27, 2004, 03:48:31 am
For more info on Grafton:

http://www.city-data.com/city/Grafton-New-Hampshire.html

http://www.dartmouthsunapee.com/grafton_new_hampshire.htm

http://www.rugglesmine.com/
Title: Re:Grafton
Post by: Pawlno1 on February 27, 2004, 07:09:40 am
not exactly Grafton but Had a friend looking for a 2 bedroom house in the countryn this fall she looked at towns within in about an hour and a half from Claremont,  rural started at about 1000 per month

have another friend looking for a starter home in move in condition in a rural setting livable bottom line about 90,000

Education mandated by state.  State says it cost about 3300 a year for state mandated part,  thats the state property tax part.  You'er also mandated to pay for special education usually the biggest single item in a school budget

you could vote out any board or stack them in your favor at Town Meeting
Title: Re:Grafton
Post by: Tracy Saboe on February 27, 2004, 05:02:00 pm
Thank you yestoAmerica and Pawlno1

Yes, My questions were only referring to local taxes and regulations.

I have every confedence that the Conservatives in the Legislature and Benson will get the State PRoperty tax repealed, and the NHLA is already working to get building codes and regulations abolished as, "they should be a local issue."

But thank you,

Tracy
Title: Re:Grafton
Post by: Tracy Saboe on February 27, 2004, 06:14:29 pm
What's the Population of Grafton County?

Tracy
Title: Re:Grafton
Post by: Tracy Saboe on February 27, 2004, 10:43:24 pm
A Few other things I noticed. (assuming I'm reading this correctly.)

We could get rid of the citi imposed coersive government electric, gas, and phone franchise monopolies. That would potentially improve the standard of living in that area. (Electric and land line phone and gas would get cheeper if laws forbiding competition were repealed -- assuming this is a problem and I'm reading this correctly.)

I noticed government wages went up while private wages when down :-(  We should try to immediatley put a cap on the town's government spending. We shouldn't even allow the government to adjust it for inflation or population. Like the Tax-Payers bill of rights for the State but only stronger. Perhaps also a cap on the amount of people government is allowed to hier.

Spending, employment and taxes can go down, but they shouldn't be allowed to go up. Not even for increases in population or inflation.

Quote
Total Private Industry         
Average Employment    23    31
Average Weekly Wage    $251    $242
        
Government       
Average Employment    19    19
Average Weekly Wage    $208    $220

Just some other ideas.

Tracy
Title: Re:Grafton
Post by: Mike Lorrey on February 28, 2004, 09:21:23 am
Quote
What are local property taxes in Grafton?


They are average by NH standards.  Check out this page for info on all of the towns in NH -
http://www.nhes.state.nh.us/elmi/communpro.htm

From the Graton page,
Total Population Community County
2001                   1,149         82,589

2002 Total Tax Rate $28.64
2002 Equalization Ratio 74.9
2002 Full Value Tax Rate $21.54

The town has:
Public Library Grafton Public (if you could get rid of that you could save)
Police Department Full-time (making it part-time would save money)
Fire Department Volunteer (getting rid of this would save money)
Town Fire Insurance Rating 9/9 (the fire department must not do a good job because the fire rating is terrible, i.e. put out your own fire)

This sort of conclusion exemplifies the problem with people making declaratory statements without knowing what they are talking about.

The volunteer fire department run by the town is probably the least cost alternative possible in the field of fire protection. The towns people  get cheap and free labor in an emergency while the town's credit rating gives the fire department the ability to buy the very expensive equipment cheaper and at lower interest rates than a for-profit entity could, so the consumer of the services pays the least possible under the present system.

This could possibly be privatized by making it a spin-off non-profit while the town guarantees loans made to the non-profit.

THe 9/9 rating is a rating that is partly the result of the fact that insurance companies don't like volunteer fire departments vs professional departments, and partly the fact that most of the roads in Grafton are undeveloped and there is no high capacity water system over most of the town for the fire department to use to fight most fires. They have to pump out of brooks, ponds, or wells, or carry their own water.

If you want a better rating, you will need to go the statist route to do so, because that is what the insurance companies want to see.

Quote
Emergency Medical Service Volunteer (nobody will vote to get rid of this and it likely uses the same building as the fire department)

Type of Government Selectmen
Annual Budget 2000 $578,402
Planning Board Elected
Industrial Plans Reviewed By Planning Board
Zoning Ordinance No Board

This is wrong, there is no zoning ordinance.

Quote
Master Plan 1987
Capitol Improvement Plan Yes
Mandatory Recycling Program Yes [/i]

In NH they don't seem to mind paying the government workers zero so you might be able to lower the selectmen pay to $100 per year.  Removing the planning board would save money.  Removing the master plan and capitol improvement plan would both save money (at least down the road).  Ending the mandatory recycling program would also save money.

The recycling program reduces the need for expansive town dump facilities. We don't have garbage pickup services in grafton. You do it yourself.

Quote

And what is the potential for entirely eliminating them?
None.  Even if you were able to find a way to pay for the roads, eliminate the fire and police, you would still have to pay state property taxes untill the state laws are changed.

Quote
What does housing typically cost in Grafton?


2000 Census Housing Costs  
Median Value, Owner-Occupied Housing $81,300
Median Gross Rent (monthly) $500


Quote
Could I get housing for less then $500/month?

Sure, but not after a couple years (because of the build up of FSP members) unless someone builds special housing for FSP members.  Don't forget, there are always pre-made homes and trailers.

Look to Free Town Land Development and other ventures to be developing housing in this year. Investor/future residents are welcome to become involved. You can set up a payment program.

Quote

Quote
(I know they're ellected officials which is presumably better then appointed boards, but what's the potential for eliminating it entirely.)

Very high if 200-300 libertarians move to the town.

Quote
What's the potential for entirely dismantling the public school system in Grafton


The Grafton page says that it does not have any schools.  The kids must go to near-by schools.

Yes, all we need to do is institute a voucher/rebate system to function until we have power at the state level to separate the state from the schools.

Quote

Quote
What's the potential for eliminating all the building codes and regulations.
I think there might be state codes in NH (?)

Quote
Are some free staters potentially thinking about purchasing some of that land and building housing complexes on some of that property?

Yes, and I read about it in online versions of print newspapers.

Quote
What county is Grafton located in? We should try to locate in the surounding areas of Grafton if possible as well.

Get this, Grafton is in Grafton County.

Quote
If somebody wanted to donate to this project, where would they send it? Does the Free Town Project, have a website of its own, with all its stated goals for downsizing the local government?

All I know about is this,
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Free_Town_Project/

Nope, that isn't it. The proper yahoo group is FTP_Biz. This is the yahoo group of the Free Town Land Development Group we are forming. The other list is for blow hards who like to talk.
Title: Re:Grafton
Post by: Tracy Saboe on February 28, 2004, 09:07:02 pm
Thanks Mike.

The Fire Dept, could be completely privatized though.  As part of your fire insurence or something, fire protection could also be a service that you purchase.  Or it could be completely non-profit.  You might have a few different private fire protection agencies competing with each other for rates, and you might have private charities that help the less foruntate get it too. Ii'm sure free people can figure out better ways to use their money to get fire protection services, then letting the government take it and letting a bureuacracy figure out the best method.

As far as recyeling. We all know that recycling, nowdays is actually worse for the environment, then not. The act of recycling polutes the air more then making it new, and the resources really aren't that scarce. Private companies could pay to pick up other people's garbage, and build their own privately owned land-fills, that a company could build on its own property. So again. I'm sure free people could figure out for themselves, methods for the disposing of both recylables and garbage better then a government can.

I'm opposed to vouchers in principle, because in many ways, it's just a different form of a welfare program. It'll get private schools and things dependent on government money. Then regulations will turn them into just another glorified government school.

What we should do, is simply let people keep their OWN money, if they choose to not go to the public school. If they private school there kids, allow them to deduct dollar for dollar the amount they spend off their property tax.

Maynard had a website with some good discussions about how to do this. Maynard? Can you post that page again?

Tracy
Title: Re:Grafton
Post by: Terry 1956 on March 06, 2004, 02:58:13 pm
Quote
What are local property taxes in Grafton?


They are average by NH standards.  Check out this page for info on all of the towns in NH -
http://www.nhes.state.nh.us/elmi/communpro.htm

From the Graton page,
Total Population Community County
2001                   1,149         82,589

2002 Total Tax Rate $28.64
2002 Equalization Ratio 74.9
2002 Full Value Tax Rate $21.54

The town has:
Public Library Grafton Public (if you could get rid of that you could save)
Police Department Full-time (making it part-time would save money)
Fire Department Volunteer (getting rid of this would save money)
Town Fire Insurance Rating 9/9 (the fire department must not do a good job because the fire rating is terrible, i.e. put out your own fire)
Emergency Medical Service Volunteer (nobody will vote to get rid of this and it likely uses the same building as the fire department)

Type of Government Selectmen
Annual Budget 2000 $578,402
Planning Board Elected
Industrial Plans Reviewed By Planning Board
Zoning Ordinance No Board
Master Plan 1987
Capitol Improvement Plan Yes
Mandatory Recycling Program Yes


In NH they don't seem to mind paying the government workers zero so you might be able to lower the selectmen pay to $100 per year.  Removing the planning board would save money.  Removing the master plan and capitol improvement plan would both save money (at least down the road).  Ending the mandatory recycling program would also save money.

And what is the potential for entirely eliminating them?
None.  Even if you were able to find a way to pay for the roads, eliminate the fire and police, you would still have to pay state property taxes untill the state laws are changed.

Quote
What does housing typically cost in Grafton?


2000 Census Housing Costs  
Median Value, Owner-Occupied Housing $81,300
Median Gross Rent (monthly) $500


Quote
Could I get housing for less then $500/month?

Sure, but not after a couple years (because of the build up of FSP members) unless someone builds special housing for FSP members.  Don't forget, there are always pre-made homes and trailers.

Quote
(I know they're ellected officials which is presumably better then appointed boards, but what's the potential for eliminating it entirely.)

Very high if 200-300 libertarians move to the town.

Quote
What's the potential for entirely dismantling the public school system in Grafton


The Grafton page says that it does not have any schools.  The kids must go to near-by schools.

Quote
What's the potential for eliminating all the building codes and regulations.
I think there might be state codes in NH (?)

Quote
Are some free staters potentially thinking about purchasing some of that land and building housing complexes on some of that property?

Yes, and I read about it in online versions of print newspapers.

Quote
What county is Grafton located in? We should try to locate in the surounding areas of Grafton if possible as well.

Get this, Grafton is in Grafton County.

Quote
If somebody wanted to donate to this project, where would they send it? Does the Free Town Project, have a website of its own, with all its stated goals for downsizing the local government?

All I know about is this,
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Free_Town_Project/
                                                                               
       Something to remember a lot of states local  property tax rate is per 100 dollars of value, NH is per 1,000 dollar of value and that would include the state property tax which most states do not have. My state madates by constitution that rates be per hundred of assesed value and assesed value is 25% of apprased value. My counties property tax is 1.83 per 100 dollars of assesed value thus for a home and lot valued at 100,000 dollars, the tax rate would be against 25,000 dollars or 457 dollars in property tax.                                
  If you notice NH  has at least 4 levels of property taxes, the local government, school district, county and state
Title: Re:Grafton
Post by: Terry 1956 on March 06, 2004, 03:14:02 pm
Thanks Mike.

The Fire Dept, could be completely privatized though.  As part of your fire insurence or something, fire protection could also be a service that you purchase.  Or it could be completely non-profit.  You might have a few different private fire protection agencies competing with each other for rates, and you might have private charities that help the less foruntate get it too. Ii'm sure free people can figure out better ways to use their money to get fire protection services, then letting the government take it and letting a bureuacracy figure out the best method.

As far as recyeling. We all know that recycling, nowdays is actually worse for the environment, then not. The act of recycling polutes the air more then making it new, and the resources really aren't that scarce. Private companies could pay to pick up other people's garbage, and build their own privately owned land-fills, that a company could build on its own property. So again. I'm sure free people could figure out for themselves, methods for the disposing of both recylables and garbage better then a government can.

I'm opposed to vouchers in principle, because in many ways, it's just a different form of a welfare program. It'll get private schools and things dependent on government money. Then regulations will turn them into just another glorified government school.

What we should do, is simply let people keep their OWN money, if they choose to not go to the public school. If they private school there kids, allow them to deduct dollar for dollar the amount they spend off their property tax.

Maynard had a website with some good discussions about how to do this. Maynard? Can you post that page again?

Tracy
                                                                             
 Well  basically it is close to being the same  as privitized if it is a voluntery fire department.The town where  has a voluntery fire department and the town has a better fire rating than the surrounding towns with a city fire department but the voluntery fire department doe have a subscription plan for businesses. My counties fire department is also voluntery run  on donations, we deed have a low fire rating, we could only get homeowners insurance through one insurance company. Since piped in water  and fire hydrants has been put in a lot more areas the rating has got much better but the capital cost were expensive.
Title: Re:Grafton
Post by: Tracy Saboe on March 06, 2004, 04:06:25 pm
Quote
If you notice NH  has at least 4 levels of property taxes, the local government, school district, county and state

Hopefully after taking over Grafton, we can abolish School district and most (Or all, I hope) of the  local government  ones right? And with the NHRA and Benson hopefully the Statewide property tax will be repealed too against the Clairmont decision right?. I don't want to be funding public education any more then I have too.

Tracy
Title: Re:Grafton
Post by: jgmaynard on March 06, 2004, 04:39:40 pm
Maynard had a website with some good discussions about how to do this. Maynard? Can you post that page again?

I  suppose I can (http://keenenh.us/jgm/articles/NHSWPT.html). :)

JM
Title: Re:Grafton
Post by: jgmaynard on March 06, 2004, 04:45:26 pm
 If you notice NH  has at least 4 levels of property taxes, the local government, school district, county and state

Yup. But everything is sent on one bill, with a total amount. And our counties are almost meaningless, so they're really cheap (~$2/$1000).
I live in a fairly high-tax area, and we are paying a TOTAL of $33/$1000, which includes all local, school, county and state property tax.
And also keep in mind that is without a sales or income tax. :)

And the bill passed last year will reduce the state-wide property tax basically in half from $5.80 to (IIRC) $2.90/$1000, So barring any other changes, we'll be paying $30/$1000 in two years for all those four tax levels together.

JM
Title: Re:Grafton
Post by: Tracy Saboe on March 06, 2004, 06:16:02 pm
$33/$1000 is like Three times more then we pay here in SD.

Plus the living expenses are higher there too.

I'd really like to move to the Free Town, but it seems like housing is much more expensive.

I do realize the no sales tax. I wonder how much I pay a year in Sale Tax.  Our food budget is around $300/month so about $1,800/year.  Our sales tax is only 5-6% so I pay aproxemately $90-$108 a year in sales tax.

:-(
Title: Re:Grafton
Post by: Karl on March 06, 2004, 06:47:54 pm
$33/$1000 is like Three times more then we pay here in SD.

Plus the living expenses are higher there too.

I'd really like to move to the Free Town, but it seems like housing is much more expensive.

Tracy, what you see is a high *rate*, but in Grafton this is a low dollar amount, because real estate there is extremely cheap, and assessments are very low compared to the the areas south of Concord.  Such "property poor" towns are always going to have a higher rate that "property rich" because a town has some fixed costs.  Grafton is about as "low cost" as any town in New England.

To guage what you'll actually pay, compare a particular piece of property with an equivelent property in Portsmouth or Nashua.  You will see that Grafton is much cheaper.

Remember too, N.H. also does not have an income tax, but S.D. does.
Title: Re:Grafton
Post by: Karl on March 06, 2004, 07:01:29 pm
"High Tax" Grafton:

(http://www.pruverani.com/idx_images/131986_1.jpg) (http://www.pruverani.com/view_listing_residential.asp?MLS=131986&T=1)
3 bedrooms, 1 bath, 2 acres! 2 car garage and near a "beach"!
Price: $169,900; taxes: $2,889

versus

"Low Tax" Porstmouth:

(http://www.pruverani.com/idx_images/132358_1.jpg) (http://www.pruverani.com/view_listing_residential.asp?MLS=132358&T=1)
Price: $254,900; taxes: $3,481
3 bedrooms, 1 bath, only 0.22 acres, 1 car garage, no beach
(homes with 2 acres in Portsmouth start a half-a-mil!)

Grafton, though it has a higher tax rate clearly has lower taxes, and cheaper real estate.
Title: Re:Grafton
Post by: freedomroad on March 06, 2004, 11:15:06 pm

Remember too, N.H. also does not have an income tax, but S.D. does.

You mean that NH doesn't have a sales tax, but SD does.
Title: Re:Grafton
Post by: Tracy Saboe on March 07, 2004, 01:46:57 am
Quote
Remember too, N.H. also does not have an income tax, but S.D. does.

This is incorect. SD does not have an income tax.

The Democrats sure want one, but the Republicans won't let that happen. (On the other hand I wish the Republicans would let the Democrats repeal the food tax)

Tracy
Title: Re:Grafton
Post by: Karl on March 07, 2004, 10:14:48 pm
This is incorect. SD does not have an income tax.

Oh, I thought it did.  My bad. ;)
Title: Re:Grafton
Post by: Tracy Saboe on March 07, 2004, 10:22:39 pm
 ;)

If it Did, the move would be a no brainer, from an economic standpoint. (Obviously I'm moving regardless)  

Tracy
Title: Re:Grafton
Post by: wes237 on March 09, 2004, 10:07:55 pm
WOW!!! The pictures of those houses are rather disappointing. If that is all you get for that much money.................
Title: Re:Grafton
Post by: freedomroad on March 09, 2004, 10:38:15 pm
WOW!!! The pictures of those houses are rather disappointing. If that is all you get for that much money.................

Why are you disappointed?  Where are you from?  It takes about $125,000 to $150,000 (min.) to live in a safe area that has good schools near Memphis.  I'm talking a 3 bedroom house.  Memphis is thought of as one of the least expensive large MSAs in the country.  Pay in NH is high compared to cost of living.

However, that Grafton house was more expensive than the average Grafton house.  Here is what the government records show:

http://www.nhes.state.nh.us/elmi/htmlprofiles/grafton.html
HOUSING
2001 Total Housing Units 708
   
2001 Single-Family Units 534
Building Permits Issued 5
2001 Multi-Family Units 37
Building Permits Issued 0
2001 Manufactured Housing Units 137
   
2000 Census Housing Costs  
Median Value, Owner-Occupied Housing $81,300
Median Gross Rent (monthly) $500


Grafton is a nice, unexpensive rural area.  Portsmouth, on the other hand, tends to act like a 'burb of Boston in some ways.  It is also on the ocean and next to several beaches.

http://www.nhes.state.nh.us/elmi/htmlprofiles/portsmouth.html
2001 Total Housing Units 10,254  
   
2001 Single-Family Units 4,746  
Building Permits Issued 27
2001 Multi-Family Units 5,229  
Building Permits Issued 3
2001 Manufactured Housing Units 279
   
2000 Census Housing Costs  
Median Value, Owner-Occupied Housing $168,600
Median Gross Rent (monthly) $727


Title: Re:Grafton
Post by: Tracy Saboe on March 09, 2004, 10:44:04 pm
Quote
Median Value, Owner-Occupied Housing $81,300
Median Gross Rent (monthly) $500

So their is cheaper housing? That's good to know.

Tracy
Title: Free Town Land Development Group
Post by: Mike Lorrey on March 09, 2004, 11:21:05 pm
For those on a budget, I recommend getting ready to peruse some in depth proposals by the Free Town Land Development Group. Our focus is specifically on offering affordable housing options to porcupines through large land buys, innovative construction, and keeping the projects out of the regulatory environment as much as possible, while adhering to high standards of quality. The Group will be structuring its developments as trusts, which offer those seeking housing a means of shielding housing assets from the tax man or other forms of seizure, while still allowing you total control over the home and land designated by your Trust Seat. Furthermore, your Seat in the Trust is completely salable AND you can roll assets out of and back into IRAs to and from this Trust without penalties or taxes.

Individuals seeking to reside in state only part time and save money on housing can either split a seat with others, OR can arrange a management contract with the Trust to rent out your housing in order to generate rental income.
Title: Grafton Town Meeting Report
Post by: Mike Lorrey on March 10, 2004, 04:58:41 pm
Neufell Wins: Extra Spending Loses
by Dan Mackie
Valley News Staff Writer

Grafton - The people have spoken in Grafton, where voters faced 29 warrant articles on the Town Meeting ballot yesterday.
  They approved an operating budget of $679,656.00, which was up almost 10 percent, but rejected a number of articles calling for extra spending.
  In a four-way race for selectman, incumbent Frank Neufell narrowly defeated challengers Catherine Mulholland, John D. Knott, Jr. and Clifford Williamson. Neufell had 143 votes, Mulholland 114, Knott 108, and Williamson, 26.
  Mary McDow won another term as town clerk, with 334 votes to 57 for Maureen O'Reilly.
  In the biggest local spending question, voters rejected buying a $74,450 backhoe outright, as favored by the selectboard. They also rejected an alternative plan, a lease/purchase deal proposed by the budget committee.
  They approved spending more, $140,000, for a new fire tanker, but a federal grant will pay most of the tab.
  Voters didn't seem to be in the mood for spending money on salaries. They rejected an article calling for a 14 hour increase in the administrative assistant's hours, bringing them to 40. They also rejected raises to the Treasurer, tax collector and town clerk.
  Also failing were articles asking for $3,000 for a regional adult day care center in Canaan and $2,000 for the Canaan Town Library.
  A request to spend $10,000 on repairs to the town office building passed, but another to spend the same amount on Town Hall failed. Voters OK'd spending $4,000 for calcium chloride for the town roads.
  Voters rejected a measure to quit the official ballot system, at which Town Meeting questions are decided by Australian Ballot. That failed by a vote of 287-95.
  They turned down a bid to cut the road agent's term to one year, but in a separate vote narrowly failed to give the road agent a vote of confidence. Asked if they are satisfied with the maintenance of the local roads, 197 voted no and 175 yes.
  A perennial request to declare Grafton a "U.N.-free-zone" failed, 221-164, this year. The town nearly passed the measure a couple years ago. (msl - in 2002 the same measure failed by only 5 votes).
  McDow said the biggest surprise was the  closeness of the selectboard race. Turnout was fairly heavy yesterday, with 390 voting out of 763 registered voters.
Title: Re:Grafton
Post by: nonluddite on March 10, 2004, 08:36:45 pm
$33/$1000 is like Three times more then we pay here in SD.

Plus the living expenses are higher there too.

I'd really like to move to the Free Town, but it seems like housing is much more expensive.

I do realize the no sales tax. I wonder how much I pay a year in Sale Tax.  Our food budget is around $300/month so about $1,800/year.  Our sales tax is only 5-6% so I pay aproxemately $90-$108 a year in sales tax.

:-(

BTW, your numbers are off by a factor of 2x.  So South Dakota has tax on food?  But no income tax.

(Don't ever move to New York!  It's income tax is even MORE complicated than the Fed's!  And NYC has its own progressive income tax--they are truly insane down there!  :-\)
Title: Re:Grafton
Post by: Mike Lorrey on March 10, 2004, 10:34:48 pm
Tracy is also wrong as to the rate. The rate in Grafton is about $21/thousand.
Title: Re:Grafton
Post by: Tracy Saboe on March 11, 2004, 06:19:13 pm
For some dumb reason I multiplied 300 by 6 instead of 12.

So, OK I probably pay around 200+ in sales tax every year then.

Where did I get the 33/thousand.

So, OK. Sounds like Grafton Property tax is only about twice what I pay in Sioux Falls.  

. . . . .

OK, so tax wise, It would cost me approxemately (2x$700-($700+$200))=$500 a year more, then it costs me here. Plus the cost of living is higher . . . . .Humm.

I suppose I could come up with an extra $500/12~$41/month to live in Grafton.

And we can safely assume that after a hundread or so people move to Grafton that local property taxes could probably be cut in half, and the local public schooling property tax would be abolished.

. . . . .

See, the reason I don't care as much about the higher incomes (And hence, percieved by YesToAmerica as freaking out :) )is that currently, I live largely off residual income from a Network marketing business that I'm in now.

Humm.

I could perhaps purchase a quarter of an acre or something for cheep, and then higher contractors to build an underground house for me, perhaps. I think decent sized ones can be built for around $40,000 (Assuming I buy the labor and don't do it myself). That could get me into a decent sized house, for about the same price I'm paying now.

How much does an acre sell for in Grafton typically? If it's less then $20,000, it would be comprable (20+40=60).

How high is the water table in Grafton? Is it low enough to make an underground house possible or practical?

Tracy

P.S. You said Grafton already has cable internet, or fiber optic, or DSL  internet services of some kind?

Just trying to plan.   TS

P.P.S.

Oh, Mike, how would one go about purchasing membership in that land trust if I'm not even there? (Assuming that's even an option for me.)  TS
Title: Re:Grafton
Post by: Tracy Saboe on March 11, 2004, 06:27:32 pm
Quote
$41/month to live in Grafton.

You know what I just realized? Car Insurence in New Hampshire is about half what it is here in SD (Because it's not so regulated.)  That would cut my $900/6= $150/month in half.  

That's where I can get the money for the hightend tax and cost of living burden.

I think if I look at the lower regulation in NH I'll find that many other basic things might be cheeper (Medical care, and Medical insurence?). (SD, is quickly becoming a fascist hyperregulatory state)

Starting to feel better.

Tracy
Title: Re:Grafton
Post by: Mike Lorrey on March 11, 2004, 06:38:26 pm
For some dumb reason I multiplied 300 by 6 instead of 12.


That's okay, Tracy. We all make mistakes.

Quote

See, the reason I don't care as much about the higher incomes (And hence, percieved by YesToAmerica as freaking out :) )is that currently, I live largely off residual income from a Network marketing business that I'm in now.

Humm.

I could perhaps purchase a quarter of an acre or something for cheep, and then higher contractors to build an underground house for me, perhaps. I think decent sized ones can be built for around $40,000 (Assuming I buy the labor and don't do it myself). That could get me into a decent sized house, for about the same price I'm paying now.

How much does an acre sell for in Grafton typically? If it's less then $20,000, it would be comprable (20+40=60).

Depending on location, of course, and services, you could pay anywhere from $1,000 up to 15,000 per acre. If you buy into the Free Town Land Development, you will likely have a raw land cost of somewhere around $1,500-2,000 per acre, maybe $3k-8k if we have to add septic, water, and/or electricity. Depends on what the final design is.

Quote

How high is the water table in Grafton? Is it low enough to make an underground house possible or practical?

This absolutely depends on location. John Babiarz lives down in the valley and has a 42' dug well that doesn't go dry. If you want to build an underground house, you are going to want to find a hillside site with plenty of till and not a lot of ledge.

Alternatively, you could choose to occupy a mine tunnel (if we bought the land around Ruggles Mine, there are some mine tunnels on this property which would be useful for vault type applications)

Quote
P.S. You said Grafton already has cable internet, or fiber optic, or DSL  internet services of some kind?

Oh, Mike, how would one go about purchasing membership in that land trust if I'm not even there? (Assuming that's even an option for me.)  TS

No, Grantham (two towns over, which is where I live) has cable internet. In Grafton, there are two T1 lines in town to individuals, one an ISP with dial-up service (John Babiarz is one of them). There is one fellow planning to build wireless internet service across town.

Anybody can purchase a seat in the land trust when we are set up and ready to accept funds officially, doesn't matter where you are.
Title: Re:Grafton
Post by: Tracy Saboe on March 11, 2004, 06:54:38 pm
Quote
Alternatively, you could choose to occupy a mine tunnel (if we bought the land around Ruggles Mine, there are some mine tunnels on this property which would be useful for vault type applications)

That sounds intreging.

Tracy
Title: Re:Grafton
Post by: Terry 1956 on March 20, 2004, 12:59:51 pm
WOW!!! The pictures of those houses are rather disappointing. If that is all you get for that much money.................

Why are you disappointed?  Where are you from?  It takes about $125,000 to $150,000 (min.) to live in a safe area that has good schools near Memphis.  I'm talking a 3 bedroom house.  Memphis is thought of as one of the least expensive large MSAs in the country.  Pay in NH is high compared to cost of living.

However, that Grafton house was more expensive than the average Grafton house.  Here is what the government records show:

http://www.nhes.state.nh.us/elmi/htmlprofiles/grafton.html
HOUSING
2001 Total Housing Units 708
   
2001 Single-Family Units 534
Building Permits Issued 5
2001 Multi-Family Units 37
Building Permits Issued 0
2001 Manufactured Housing Units 137
   
2000 Census Housing Costs  
Median Value, Owner-Occupied Housing $81,300
Median Gross Rent (monthly) $500


Grafton is a nice, unexpensive rural area.  Portsmouth, on the other hand, tends to act like a 'burb of Boston in some ways.  It is also on the ocean and next to several beaches.

http://www.nhes.state.nh.us/elmi/htmlprofiles/portsmouth.html
2001 Total Housing Units 10,254  
   
2001 Single-Family Units 4,746  
Building Permits Issued 27
2001 Multi-Family Units 5,229  
Building Permits Issued 3
2001 Manufactured Housing Units 279
   
2000 Census Housing Costs  
Median Value, Owner-Occupied Housing $168,600
Median Gross Rent (monthly) $727



 Memphis is a stand out in TN. Your best beat is the Chattanooga to Knoxville area, Nashville area or Tri cities. In  the Athens area between Chattanooga and Knoxville  160,000 could get you 10 to 20 acres with a 3  bedroom house 2 baths , probally a full basement, Garage and probally a few out buildings. You could probally get the above with at least 2 to 5 acres around Lenior City( outside Knoxville) or Ooltewah( outside Chattanooga).
Title: Re:Grafton
Post by: Terry 1956 on March 20, 2004, 01:25:34 pm
$33/$1000 is like Three times more then we pay here in SD.

Plus the living expenses are higher there too.

I'd really like to move to the Free Town, but it seems like housing is much more expensive.

I do realize the no sales tax. I wonder how much I pay a year in Sale Tax.  Our food budget is around $300/month so about $1,800/year.  Our sales tax is only 5-6% so I pay aproxemately $90-$108 a year in sales tax.

:-(

BTW, your numbers are off by a factor of 2x.  So South Dakota has tax on food?  But no income tax.

(Don't ever move to New York!  It's income tax is even MORE complicated than the Fed's!  And NYC has its own progressive income tax--they are truly insane down there!  :-\)
                                                                             
       Our  state sales tax is 7%, 6% on food, my county adds 2%, some surrounding counties add as much as 2.75%. On automobiles and boats it is 7% for the first 1,600 dollars and 2% over that. I also think there is a limit on other big ticket items. I may spend 10,000  a year on sales tax  items probally less, so probally 900 dollars at most, that's about 3% of my income. My counties property tax is low and my home and 4 acres is valued at around 19,000, so I  was paying less than 100 dollars  in property tax, my parents with property valued around 65,000 pays around 200 to 250 maybe less. So over all I guess I spend around 4% of my income on state and  local taxes. Even if I made 60,000 a year instead of 30,000 and with a property worth 150,000 I still would probally only pay 4 to 5% of my income in state and local taxes.
Title: Re:Grafton
Post by: Terry 1956 on March 20, 2004, 01:37:29 pm
Tracy is also wrong as to the rate. The rate in Grafton is about $21/thousand.
                                                                           
  So about 2.1% and if his income is the same he will get at least a 20% reduction.                                              
          Why in the hell does governments do the 21 dollars per thousand or in my state it would be 2.10 per hundred dollars of assesed value and ass. value is 25% of appraised value. Why not just say 2.1% or in the case of my state .525%. I guess in the case of assement its because commercial pay a higher assement rate but it seems they still could just give a percentage for commercial.
Title: Re:Grafton
Post by: Terry 1956 on March 20, 2004, 01:45:27 pm
Quote
$41/month to live in Grafton.

You know what I just realized? Car Insurence in New Hampshire is about half what it is here in SD (Because it's not so regulated.)  That would cut my $900/6= $150/month in half.  

That's where I can get the money for the hightend tax and cost of living burden.

I think if I look at the lower regulation in NH I'll find that many other basic things might be cheeper (Medical care, and Medical insurence?). (SD, is quickly becoming a fascist hyperregulatory state)

Starting to feel better.

Tracy
Tracy if your income is going to be about the same ( I think you said it in another post) you probally can get a 20% reduction in your property tax, maybe 40%. If you and your wife make less than 25,000 a year total you will get 100% of the  property tax back. less than 40,000 and you will get 20%.
Title: Re:Grafton
Post by: Tracy Saboe on March 20, 2004, 06:15:45 pm
Oh.

So (assuming my business doesn't get bigger -- in which case if it did it wouldn't matter because I could afford it) I'd have an additional 20% reduction.

That sounds doable.

Tracy
Title: Re:Grafton
Post by: freedomroad on March 21, 2004, 11:28:19 pm
Tracy if your income is going to be about the same ( I think you said it in another post) you probally can get a 20% reduction in your property tax, maybe 40%. If you and your wife make less than 25,000 a year total you will get 100% of the  property tax back. less than 40,000 and you will get 20%.

Do you mean a 20% reduction in his NH state property tax (a chuck of the overall property tax) or a 20% reduction in his overall property tax (doesn't sound realistic) ?
Title: Re:Grafton
Post by: Terry 1956 on March 22, 2004, 01:49:20 am
Tracy if your income is going to be about the same ( I think you said it in another post) you probally can get a 20% reduction in your property tax, maybe 40%. If you and your wife make less than 25,000 a year total you will get 100% of the  property tax back. less than 40,000 and you will get 20%.

Do you mean a 20% reduction in his NH state property tax (a chuck of the overall property tax) or a 20% reduction in his overall property tax (doesn't sound realistic) ?
Sorry I meant the state property tax. I don't know what I was thinking of I guess a state property tax doesn't click in my mind. So at 1/2%  a 20% reduction would save you 100 dollars on a 100,000 dollar home.
Title: Re:Grafton
Post by: Top Dollar on March 22, 2004, 11:34:49 am
Does anyone know what happened to the Free Town research report or where to find it?  I'm sure I saw it on the FSP website, but I can't seem to find it.
Title: Re:Grafton
Post by: Karl on March 22, 2004, 11:44:24 am
http://www.freestateproject.org/about/essay_archive/freetown.jsp
Title: Re:Grafton
Post by: Top Dollar on March 22, 2004, 12:38:11 pm
Thanks.  There is some nice cheap land near Grafton, I wanted to check the other towns mentioned in the report but couldn't remember them.
Title: Re:Grafton
Post by: Top Dollar on March 22, 2004, 04:00:34 pm
Nope, that isn't it. The proper yahoo group is FTP_Biz. This is the yahoo group of the Free Town Land Development Group we are forming. The other list is for blow hards who like to talk.

Is anyone checking the FTP_Biz membership requests?  Mine has been pending for almost a week now.
Title: Re:Grafton
Post by: Pawlno1 on March 23, 2004, 06:27:44 am
lowest price for a rental in Grafton I've seen is $750 for a trailer.  Haven't heard of a home under 100K

Grafton is in Grafton county but county government in this part of the woulr is not strong.  Dictates of the state passed down to cities and towns.

Possibility of eradicating tax?? some county tax (old folks home, prison and sheirff)

Education state property tax plus local.  Would have to get out of SAU still have to pay for education of those up to 16 I beleive (it maybe 18) and special education.


code in town without its own inspector can be through the state fire marshall.  Recentlly had a customer denied occupancy permit because flooring wasnt finished.  Electrician wouldn't hang light ficture for fear flooring installers would damage light.  Without light they couldn't get permit.

Wouldn't dare to guess how much it would cost you to live in Grafton


Title: Re:Grafton
Post by: Terry 1956 on March 23, 2004, 10:49:54 am
$33/$1000 is like Three times more then we pay here in SD.

Plus the living expenses are higher there too.

I'd really like to move to the Free Town, but it seems like housing is much more expensive.

I do realize the no sales tax. I wonder how much I pay a year in Sale Tax.  Our food budget is around $300/month so about $1,800/year.  Our sales tax is only 5-6% so I pay aproxemately $90-$108 a year in sales tax.

:-(

BTW, your numbers are off by a factor of 2x.  So South Dakota has tax on food?  But no income tax.

(Don't ever move to New York!  It's income tax is even MORE complicated than the Fed's!  And NYC has its own progressive income tax--they are truly insane down there!  :-\)
                                                                             
       Our  state sales tax is 7%, 6% on food, my county adds 2%, some surrounding counties add as much as 2.75%. On automobiles and boats it is 7% for the first 1,600 dollars and 2% over that. I also think there is a limit on other big ticket items. I may spend 10,000  a year on sales tax  items probally less, so probally 900 dollars at most, that's about 3% of my income. My counties property tax is low and my home and 4 acres is valued at around 19,000, so I  was paying less than 100 dollars  in property tax, my parents with property valued around 65,000 pays around 200 to 250 maybe less. So over all I guess I spend around 4% of my income on state and  local taxes. Even if I made 60,000 a year instead of 30,000 and with a property worth 150,000 I still would probally only pay 4 to 5% of my income in state and local taxes.
                                                                             
 Did  I say you should have to pay to send other people's kids to school?
Title: Re:Grafton
Post by: NHHomes on March 24, 2004, 01:05:32 pm
I live a town over from Grafton in Canaan (no zoning or many other rules here).  If anyone is coming up to see the area and wants some help finding their way around, let me know.  

- Gretchen Wallace