Free State Project Forum

FSP -- General Discussion => Prospective Participants => Topic started by: zeeder on October 01, 2002, 12:12:19 am

Title: Professional Licensing
Post by: zeeder on October 01, 2002, 12:12:19 am
Doctors, Lawyers, Pharmacists, Hairdressers etc....all have license. In the Free State licensing will become unneccessary? Will this affect professionals decision to move? Without licensing could a mechanic become a doctor? Could I?
  It took 6 years of college to become a pharmacist but I have no problem getting rid of licensing. I just want to know the alternatives, if any. I have not really thought about it much.
  It is Federal Law that prevents you from buying allegra OTC. However, I believe states decide prescribing rights. ( I wonder if the state could give hairdressers prescribing rights lol)

Title: Re:Professional Licensing
Post by: JasonPSorens on October 01, 2002, 07:25:11 am
I definitely think licensing laws will be something we target right from the beginning.  These are decided on a state or even local level.  We still need to have structures in place to punish fraud: for example, if a doctor claims to be an MD but isn't he should be sued, perhaps jailed.  But preventing people from operating without a license is merely anti-competitive.  Let people choose!

I realise I'm preaching to the converted here... ;)
Title: Re:Professional Licensing
Post by: zeeder on October 01, 2002, 09:28:08 am
Thanks Jason :) I really never understood why i have a license. Isn't a diploma enough?
  My last comment was a suggestion on how to get around Federal Law. You can't make everything OTC, but you can give prescribing rights to as many healthcare professionals as possible. This would decrease costs. In the end, would prescriptions not be done away with(requireing them to purchase meds that is). That is a federal matter but I am curious. I believe you should be able to buy as much allegra, zantac 150, cardura, atarax, celebrex etc.... as you want. No one is going to "try out" blood pressure meds. Prescriptions are just ways doctors force patients to come to them.
 Maybe, you guys need a health care team :)  Eventually anyway. I will gladly be apart of it, if i can convince my wife and family. I got 5 years ;)

Title: Re:Professional Licensing
Post by: JasonPSorens on October 01, 2002, 11:41:17 am

  My last comment was a suggestion on how to get around Federal Law. You can't make everything OTC, but you can give prescribing rights to as many healthcare professionals as possible.

Right - it's a very clever idea and something we should try if possible.  I admit I haven't studied this area very much.
Title: Re:Professional Licensing
Post by: Midway76 on October 04, 2002, 07:42:08 am
In my view, most professional licensing is a means to restrict free enterprise by otherwise qualified persons and have been enacted as a means to protect the group writing the "standards for licensure".  As a Hypnotherapist and Massage Therapist, I have found this to be especially true.  Making a medical doctor or an attorney get a license does not ensure you will receive quality service.  With 2 master's degrees in different areas of counseling, getting a license would not make me a better counsellor nor does the absence of one make me a poor one. (It does keep me from working in those fields under the current system unless I become a "pastoral counselor")  I agree that systems of punishing fraud and malpractice should be sufficient and let the marketplace drive the rest.
Title: Re:Professional Licensing
Post by: heyerstandards on October 16, 2002, 09:46:09 pm
Licensing is the primary method to restrict the supply of competitors.  (and drive relevance and revenue to the state.)

All livelihood licensing should be abolished.  You can hear the sqealing! "Who will protect the people."

Frankly, the professions themselves will establish their own standards. For instance people will quickly learn to only do business with CPAs that are members of the American Institute of CPAs because they have higher continuing education levels and internal periodic review of members.

People will have to be disabused of the notion that just because someone has a "license" they are somehow competent to provide a service.  All it means they have passed the bare minimum standards and PAID A FEE TO THE STATE.  >:(

Godspeed us.
Title: Re:Professional Licensing
Post by: jessica_420 on October 17, 2002, 11:24:03 pm
Excellent, another pharmacist!  Elimination of professional licensing would be one of my highest priorities, as well.  
Good idea about starting out by expanding prescribing privileges, but the main opposition to this will be the AMA, not the state government, per se.
Title: Re:Professional Licensing
Post by: Geoff on October 20, 2002, 10:01:18 pm
My first post!

One of the things I am researching is the licensing procedures in my profession. I am a small businessman owning a Pest Control Company. Should I move to the designated state I will of course try to earn a living doing what I do best.

The EPA requires every state to license Exterminators. Each state designates an agency(Usually the Dept of Agriculture or Environmental Conservation) that tests and licenses the Exterminators in that state.

Some states are very liberal and others are tough to get a license in. I will research each state of the 13 to determine how each goes about licensing .

I agree that licenses are just a means to tax  working people and control who works in that particular state.

Some states license everybody (Like New York) and others try to keep outsiders out (Connecticut and Florida in my own experience).

I am presently leaning towards the western states as they have a history of encouraging new businesses. Unlike the northeast where current businesses try to protect their territory.

Should be interesting.

BTW I am currently planning a move out of NY,  hopefully within the next year. Will probably go to Pennsylvania temporarily.

This project may be just what I am looking for.

Happy to be here!    
Title: Re:Professional Licensing
Post by: Jeffersonian Democrat on October 29, 2002, 02:01:20 pm
Interesting question, as a CPA, I'm licensed by the State of Texas.  Every state has different requirements for licensing CPA's, some liberal some very restrictive, in fact I moved to Texas primarily because of more restrictive requirements in Mass.(they required audit hours and I was only interested in tax work).  Since the process is administered by the profession (AICPA) and the state only issues the license when it receives the certification from the profession, I'm not sure how this would be subject to change in the FS.
Title: Re:Professional Licensing
Post by: heyerstandards on October 31, 2002, 08:45:41 pm
Jeff Demo-- glad to see there's another accountant in the mix.

You're right, the AICPA tells the state when to issue the license. But why does the state issue the license?  Why not just have the public look for the "AICPA member" logo on the stationery of the accountant?  The only purpose of the license is to add fee revenue to the state (and act as a protection racket for the industry)
Title: Re:Professional Licensing
Post by: Jeffersonian Democrat on October 31, 2002, 09:02:06 pm

I don't think you can be an AICPA member unless you are a licensed (by the state) CPA.  You are correct it is mostly a fee generating system.  There really is no difference in the work a person is capable of doing whether or not they have the initials, except for public companies, but the people have been conditioned to look for the initials.  People think that the initials will make a difference when it comes to an audit, which is not necessarily the case.

Anyway my profession as a tax accountant is one I would like to see made near extinct in the FS.  I don't mind looking for honest work.
Title: Re:Professional Licensing
Post by: cathleeninsc on November 01, 2002, 08:55:45 am
I knew as early as my tax courses in college that I couldn't work with a system that I didn't believe in. I made it clear to my employers over the years that tax work wasn't going to be the best use of my talents. It worked for a number of years but with corporate downsizing, more and more work fell on the few CPAs in the firm. Next thing I knew I was spending most of my time and much overtime on tax work. My health and attitude suffered so much that I left the workforce. I gained peace of mind and they lost an honest worker.

Cathleen in SC
Title: Re:Professional Licensing
Post by: heyerstandards on November 01, 2002, 01:41:04 pm
Honest work... hear! hear!  

1) The AICPA writes the exam.
2) The state hires someone to administer the test to "qualified" candiates.
3) The test is graded.
4) If the test is passed and if other subsequent fees are paid, voila, a little slip of paper arrives saying you have a state license.
5) You then send the AICPA your slip of paper (with another check for $150 or so) and you become a member of the AICPA.  

My thought is that since the AICPA writes and grades the CPA exam, the only function that state has is to collect another fee.  The AICPA should be

True, people do look for the letters: CPA.  We just need to train them to look for "AICPA" or [FS ICPA] (Free State Institute of CPAs.).  ;-)

Knowing what I know about the true nature and intent of the tax system and IRS, I too only do a few returns for friends.  I can barely  stomach to see what is wasted.

"But I got a refund... .yippee!"
Title: Re:Professional Licensing
Post by: Jeffersonian Democrat on November 01, 2002, 03:35:30 pm
Heyerstandards & CathleenSC

I've only learned about the great fraud and deception in the last year.  Good grief I got a Masters in Taxation and swallowed it up hook line and sinker.  One day on the road to Damascus a blinding light...  anyway I'm more than a little peeved about the whole UNCONSTITUTONAL system.  People wonder why we can't have tax simplification.  Cause folks if they ever simplified it, you would see that the Emperor was naked.
Title: Re:Professional Licensing
Post by: heyerstandards on November 01, 2002, 04:57:36 pm
I think one of the most telling "proofs" of the fraud is that through all of my tax textbooks and CPA review course materials, those liable for taxes are ALWAYS referred to as "TAXPAYERS."

Well, no duh, the uninitiated will respond.  But in no example or problem did the text say "everyone" or "citizens"or "people" or other generic terms.  "Taxpayer" is a term of art; it has a very specific meaning.

Pick a theory on why that label doesn't apply to you.  There are a lot to choose from...

To the rest of the accountants on the boards:  how much do you think we should charge to provide this advice to citizens of [Free State]?
Title: Re:Professional Licensing
Post by: Midwest Patriot on November 20, 2002, 10:45:33 am
I would remind you that the free market system we talk about will naturally weed out the incompetents in any profession.   I have practiced as an electrical engineer for thirty years, but refuse to become licensed by the state.   The license means I'm good at taking tests.  Time in the profession and repeat customers means I can claim competency.
Title: Re:Professional Licensing
Post by: Mogray on May 04, 2003, 08:43:47 am
I think we all know that making the choosen state into "the free state" is a going to be a long process.  We do need to debate and determine what the final goal is.  But we also need to determine the first practical steps.

For instance, if we tried to pass a law right away to do away with all medical licensing it would be too big a step for most people and make it easy for the fear mongers to defeat it.  A first step might be to accept a license from any other state as reason enough to issue a Free State license of the same type.  This would make it much easier for practioners from other states to move to the FS.  This is good for FS people because it increases the supply.  (My wife is a physical therapist and licensing is the biggest issue for us when considering a inter-state move.)

Next, we can look at licensed profressions that aren't quite as scary to consumers.  Would you be willing to get your hair cut by someone who wasn't licensed?   Here in Texas a person without a license who cuts hair (for money) is breaking the law and could be in big trouble.  So, a first step might be to make the license optional.  The person has to post either the license or something saying they are performing hair cutting without, and the consumer decides.  Later, after people are used to it, you remove the posting requirement.

I believe we need to retain our ideals but think in practical terms.

  -- Mogray
Title: Re:Professional Licensing
Post by: BobW on May 04, 2003, 09:06:19 am
Hi all,

Here's a tangent view.  True, licenses are revenue generators.  Delve beyond this and we can see cartels within the various professional societies in the US.

Recall the Allan Bakke (spell?) case in California.  He sought a medical school slot but got caught up in the quota system. Recall the "rescue" of the American medical school students at a med school in Grenada.  With the overcapacity in higher education schools- if you accept this-why weren't many more med schools established over the years.  

CPAs, attorneys, the tenured professors, and other professions, are running cartels.  So I don't have everyone here hating me, so too, are the blue collar trades.  The maritime industry, for all practical purposes, left the US - although still US owned.

Now, look at the high-tech industries.  Was there a valid reason Loral and Rayethon were running space shots in China?  American engineers are not competitive against foreign engineers in the micro picture.  It's the cartel elements helping to cause this.  

Other examples of the modern cartel can be seen in the public school teacher unions with their difficult to obtain requirements for entry, etc.

Title: Re:Professional Licensing
Post by: vermass on May 10, 2003, 11:17:50 am
  I am an LPN not an RN. In my work environment (ie: a nursing home) I can do ALMOST everything an RN can do. The limits I have are those that the RN lobby has pushed for in Standards Of Practice. Because the is a certain pay scale for RN's and one for LPN's my competency as a nurse is important but not the deciding factor for my pay. My license is the deciding factor, I am limited by my title instead of my abilities. That is a major downfall of the licensing system. Everyone says I should go back to school to GET my RN, not because I need to learn more. My unit is the smoothest run in the home I work in and we are ALL LPN's!
Title: Re:Professional Licensing
Post by: kekaha on May 11, 2003, 10:06:23 am
Licensing by any government means that they want money and control of you first and foremost. I have met and used many licensed individuals and I was not impressed with many of them. However, I have used unlicensed people and with good results. Qualified people are qualified reguardless of license. Maybe what we can setup is a "Reference Posting" similar to what they have on ebay and you can see comments from all who use or order from someone. It will show all comments left by people who are happy with or unhappy with services they received from the in question Service Provider. If you are finilar with ebay and their rating of sellers and buyers it would help you know who to use and not to use.
Title: Re:Professional Licensing
Post by: Aaron on May 13, 2003, 02:41:19 am
I am currently a massage therapist student in Southern California.  California is one of the few states in the union that does not have statewide licensing requirements in my soon to be profession.  As a result, licensing regulations have sprung up on a city by city basis.  The State legislature is debating a bill right now that would change this; fortunately it is tied up in committee right now.  

What was interesting to learn is that there is really only one reason why California's cities enacted these requirements in the first place.  None of them have anything to do ensuring client safety or practicioner competence; their only purpose is to dissuade prostitutes from disguising their true profession in their advertisements.  The reasoning is if you require 1000 hours of training for a license, no prostitute would bother.  Not only does this inane logic ignore the obvious solution of legalizing prostitution which would allow them to dispense with the doublespeak in their ads, but it didn't even work!  The '70s and '80s saw the massage school industry flourish as term after term, their classes were overenrolled with, you guessed it, prostitutes!  Sex is a lucrative business.  They can easily afford tuition better than we apiring serious practicioners.  

Not only that, it nearly killed a huge chunk of Cali's tourism industry.  The resorts and spas couldn't find licensed therapists to hire!  Here in the Coachella Valley this trend was reversed when Marriot built their Desert Springs Resort in Palm Desert.  When they couldn't keep their spa staffed properly, they vigorously lobbied the city to reduce the requirements.  Most of the other cities in the valley soon followed suit not wanting to lose business to Palm Desert.

The bottom line is most therapists are not in business for themselves.  They work for day spas or resorts.  These businesses have a vested interest in maintaining high standards of safety and competence since the competition is so fierce.  Word spreads like wildfire around here about customer complaints.  I can say for sure that in this industry, licensing is completely unnecessary.  The clients don't need it.  The practitioners and their employers don't need it.  The only one who needs it is the city governments because it is nothing more than a revenue generating device.

By the way, I never really grasped how truly draconian most zoning regulations are until I heard the story of the crap my school had to go through just to move to a bigger building in Palm Springs.  Our business manager had the full support of the planning commission.  The vote was about to go through when at the last minute some a-hole council member says, "Wait a minute.  Now you guys seem like you are on the up and up and all; but if we give you in kind C-2 status for your school, pretty soon every C-2 parcel in Palm Springs is going to have a brothel masquerading as a school pop up on it."  The application was denied.  Without the help of a friend on the planning commission in securing a special exemption, we would still be sharing a run down building with a cosmetology school in Desert Hot Springs (the wrong end of the valley for those of you unfamiliar with the area).

City Councilman Joe is right when he says local politics are full of opportunities to apply libertarian principles.