Free State Project Forum

FSP -- General Discussion => Prospective Participants => Topic started by: nick on December 22, 2003, 02:30:37 pm

Title: Why so few new people joining FSP?
Post by: nick on December 22, 2003, 02:30:37 pm
I have been watching the FSP for 18 months and have noticed a huge slowdown in new members.  FSP used to grow 80-100 per week, but now is crawling along at half that rate.

Does anyone care to venture a thought as to why this has happened?
Title: Re:Why so few new people joining FSP?
Post by: LeRuineur6 on December 22, 2003, 03:07:49 pm
It's really no big deal at all.  Hundreds of people opted out of New Hampshire.

All we need to do is to try some new marketing and selling strategies.

Regardless of the member count, 50% of all members are moving with or without 20,000 members.  Many are moving immediately, myself included.
Title: Re:Why so few new people joining FSP?
Post by: Kyle on December 22, 2003, 07:08:51 pm
50% of members who participate in the forums and read the poll are going no matter what...that's quite different.  It implies a more active individual.  Current average puts completion in 323.9 weeks, or 6.22 years.
Title: Re:Why so few new people joining FSP?
Post by: bmud on December 22, 2003, 08:24:50 pm
Current average puts completion in 323.9 weeks, or 6.22 years.

I think it's important to stress that declining member growth shouldn't discourage anyone from moving.

If you move and we don't hit 20k, NH is still one of the freest states in America and there are at least a handful of people who did move who are dedicated to preserving that freedom.

If you move and we do hit 20k, just in 6 years not 2, then freedom is delayed, not denied.  In that 6 year span, it's still the freest state in the union and pleny of porcs will have moved early.

Title: Re:Why so few new people joining FSP?
Post by: CyberChrist on December 26, 2003, 01:28:56 pm
I've been watching the movement as of the last few months as well, and I personally don't feel like moving to a state that is as cold as NH is.  Also, job prospects are bleak all around the country, but they are especially so in NH, which seems to be basically a suburb for Boston, so a lot of people are going to shy away for that reason as well.  Many people (most in fact) have jobs that they are not going to easily get away from, and you are going to be hard-pressed to find a way to justify moving from a secure job and away from family and friends and from a climate that might be better suited to your likings to a place that doesn't have much in the way of jobs.  I am sure there are friends and family looking at FSP readers with a very confused look when they tell them that they want to move to.... New Hampshire and quit their jobs.

Personally, I don't know how much good it is going to do to move people to one state and think that it is going to make any kind of lasting difference.  Martial law is not something that gets voted on, so when it comes, it will affect every citizen in America, not just the ones that don't live in NH.

I'd be happier in seeing the ideals of this group be spread through the airwaves, through ownership of radio and television stations, along with increased coverage in newspapers and the Internet.  Raising awareness is the first step in getting people to believe in what you stand for and I simply do not believe that this has been done on the scale that it should be when it comes to this project.

So.. I don't know.  Personally, I sit on the fence because I am simply not sure that this is the way to make a long-lasting difference.
Title: Re:Why so few new people joining FSP?
Post by: Blefuscu on December 26, 2003, 10:10:28 pm
I find the climate anywhere north of I-20 to be daunting too.  I could probably adapt to the dreadfully cold weather in NH eventually, but I'd sorely miss the more temperate climate I've always lived in.  Although I am reasonably comfortable living in Dallas, I much prefer the fecund vitality of south Louisiana where I grew up.  The brief winter there is barely noticeable.   Deciduous trees seldom drop all of their leaves.  Crops are grown all year.  No animals hibernate.  

More problematic for me would be the population density in the northeast.  Someone mentioned that there is nowhere in NH you can live that is more than 45 minutes from a WalMart.  That is depressing.   People there must feel very cramped.   And the longest geographic dimension of the state of NH is only slightly greater than the distance from Dallas to Austin, which is not an especially long drive.  
Title: Re:Why so few new people joining FSP?
Post by: minikin on December 26, 2003, 10:12:53 pm
New Hampshire only seems cold if you've never been to Northern Montana, the Dakota's, Newfoundland, or, I kid you not, New Jersey, PA, or Washington DC. Suburb of Boston?? Only Nashua and Merrimack, & maybe to the southern edge of Manchester seem to have been overrun; despite more than 20 years of MA escapism. Move out of those sadly blighted areas and it's still "Live Free or Die" individualism --what attracted me to the place originally 25+ years ago; and what Maine with their new found liberalism is now sadly lacking.
Title: Re:Why so few new people joining FSP?
Post by: Mike Lorrey on December 27, 2003, 08:38:58 pm
I've been watching the movement as of the last few months as well, and I personally don't feel like moving to a state that is as cold as NH is.  Also, job prospects are bleak all around the country, but they are especially so in NH, which seems to be basically a suburb for Boston, so a lot of people are going to shy away for that reason as well.  


While this is a common misperception, NH actually has one of the lowest unemployment rates in the entire country, and some have the lowest rates in the world. Nor is it 'basically a suburb of Boston'.

The southern border of NH is 30-45 minutes from Boston (on a good day), and while some people live on the border and commute, the overwhelming majority of the state lives and works within NH, where high-tech abounds, as doe educational and other employment options. I live 2.5 hours from Boston, which ain't any 'suburb', yet I'm still in the southern half of the state.

Suggest those who don't know jack about this state spend some time here before making such plainly uninformed statements.

Winter weather lasts about 5 months, typically, and is usually no colder than 20F in that time, outside of a few blizzards. Yes, we like to tell stories about how terrible the weather is here to scare away the statist softies, but this is mostly propaganda like that told by Californians to keep other people from moving to Seattle.
Title: Re:Why so few new people joining FSP?
Post by: Blefuscu on December 27, 2003, 09:26:56 pm
I'm considering spending a week of my vacation time next year visiting NH.  I want to go sometime when travel will be easy and the weather pleasant.  The purpose of the trip will be to survey NH geography sans snow, and to evaluate the feel of the place, people's attitudes, etc.   What months would be best for this?
Title: Re:Why so few new people joining FSP?
Post by: cjean on December 29, 2003, 05:09:20 pm
Hi...this is my first post, and I'd like to say that I joined after reading the Walter Williams columns of late.  I'm Republican in affiliation, but definitely feel affinity with Libertarians.  I am devouring all I can read about this, frankly I thought there was no hope for participation in something of this kind.  I am truly inspired.
I didn't wish to wait to declare my intent, I wanted to see if there might be a swell in response and new memebers because of the exposure thru Dr. Williams columns.
Title: Re:Why so few new people joining FSP?
Post by: Mike Lorrey on December 29, 2003, 06:43:56 pm
I'm considering spending a week of my vacation time next year visiting NH.  I want to go sometime when travel will be easy and the weather pleasant.  The purpose of the trip will be to survey NH geography sans snow, and to evaluate the feel of the place, people's attitudes, etc.   What months would be best for this?

May is decent. Note that if you are going to be in any wilderness areas that black fly season runs from late May to the end of June. July through October are excellent. let me know if you want to do any fly fishing or hunting.
Title: Re:Why so few new people joining FSP?
Post by: rdeacon on December 30, 2003, 11:16:19 pm
To address the declining membership, there is a positive note.  If every existing FSP member moved to NH, we could succeed.  5,000 people is more than enough to bring a third party presence into a state like NH.  We'd have to work a lot harder than if we hit 20K, but 5,000 is still five times as many activists as the two major parties have.

Unfortunately, this is assuming that we have 5,000 genuine, ready-to-go members.  As many of you know, that isn't exactly the truth.
Title: Re:Why so few new people joining FSP?
Post by: SBottari on January 02, 2004, 01:44:04 am
I think the climate has something to do with it - and now people are limited.  Instead of a possible ten states (or fifteen as there once was), there is only New Hampshire.  It's a fine choice for me, it's more comfortable climate-wise than here in the Twin Cities.  A little less colder in the winter, quite a bit milder in the summer.  

I really would like to get there soon, but I just graduated and have some debt to pay off.  After I get some money saved up - I'd like to set up my own business there and generate some jobs.  Hopefully, a lot of us can do that and then in a couple years when businesses grow; more people will move.  And that may be what people are waiting for.
Title: Re:Why so few new people joining FSP?
Post by: Dawn on January 05, 2004, 10:37:01 pm
If every existing FSP member moved to NH, we could succeed.  5,000 people is more than enough to bring a third party presence into a state like NH.  We'd have to work a lot harder than if we hit 20K, but 5,000 is still five times as many activists as the two major parties have.

I was just thinking the same thing as I was reading another thread! I am not going to worry about  how many members we have or how fast the membership is growing. I am looking forward and hoping to move in the near future. If everyone did that and put their energy into helping make NH the Free State, I am certain that the FSP will be deemed a success. I will feel it to be a personal success to be able to live a freer life, regardless of the "success" of the FSP.
Title: Re:Why so few new people joining FSP?
Post by: FreeBoB on January 06, 2004, 12:08:06 am

I agree with you completely Dawn.  I see no hope of anything changing here in NY in my lifetime.  I plan to move this year and do all I can now and when I'm there to promote the FSP.
Title: Re:Why so few new people joining FSP?
Post by: rdeacon on January 06, 2004, 10:12:59 am
I'm glad that we allstill have such a positive outlook.  It's important to believe in the power of individuals.  5,000 people supporting a moderate agenda could get their ideas accepted by a large percentage of the population.
Title: Re:Why so few new people joining FSP?
Post by: Elwar on January 06, 2004, 11:01:29 am
I've noticed a distinct difference in perception of the outlook of the future free state from before the state was chosen and after.

Before you had stories of this dream world of liberty where all was perfect. The business and employment forum was booming with new dream jobs that people wanted to start in the free state.

But with the state being chosen, things are a bit more definate. There is no mystical world where laws of physics and market are not known. There is a state, that state is New Hampshire. Before considering your 'Ostrich Pizza' restaurant you're hit with the actual realities that it's not a fantasy world where everyone likes Ostrich Pizza and that you'll be able to set up a shop in the heart of town where large amounts of people will flock to your restaurant with little overhead.
You have to start thinking in terms of the market and the reality that New Hampshirites might not care for Ostrich Pizza and your sales will be dismal while finding a location might be more difficult considering the low cost areas of the state are also the low population areas while the high population areas are very high cost.

Though this reality would've been the same for any of the chosen states.

The Free State is no longer a fantasy land where all of your dreams can come true. It's an actual state that needs hard work and dedication to move it closer to the land of our dreams.
It's a harder sell now than it was before the state was chosen.
Title: Re:Why so few new people joining FSP?
Post by: Kelton Baker on January 06, 2004, 11:08:32 am
I'm glad that we allstill have such a positive outlook.  It's important to believe in the power of individuals.  5,000 people supporting a moderate agenda could get their ideas accepted by a large percentage of the population.

Right!  I am still a maverick in my opinion that people ought to (starting on their own initiative) get involved in NH or even move there if they've become discouraged with where they now live.  The number 20k was developed as a number to obtain critical mass in effecting political change,  but it too is merely a starting-point.  Recently, it was disclosed that the same theory worked at the ratio that would change our number to 12k. 20k, 12k, 50k, 5k; whatever,  no matter what number you think we need, they are all a starting point in the larger scheme of captivitating the hearts of a majority of people in a state.

Yea,  I'm discouraged we aren't receiving hundreds more people and we aren't up a few thousand members right now,  but when I stop to think of the significance of even just 77 individuals and their families who committed this week to move to NH with only a band of 20k others, to bring about liberty, and they signed right in the dead of winter with an economy that is relatively sluggish,  wow!  I am amazed, yea, our goals are much higher and these numbers are lower than we hope, but still, people are joining, and they bring fresh optimism and enthusiasm too.  

It is also interesting how many people who are new recruits are also set on moving to NH right away;  they essentially joined the "Free New Hampshire Project" not just the "Free Some-State-Out-There Project"  People who join today seem to have more purpose in their resolve to make the move.  Anybody else agree with that perception?
Title: Re:Why so few new people joining FSP?
Post by: Kelton Baker on January 06, 2004, 11:15:33 am
I've noticed a distinct difference in perception of the outlook of the future free state from before the state was chosen and after.

Before you had stories of this dream world of liberty where all was perfect. The business and employment forum was booming with new dream jobs that people wanted to start in the free state.

But with the state being chosen, things are a bit more definate. There is no mystical world where laws of physics and market are not known. There is a state, that state is New Hampshire. Before considering your 'Ostrich Pizza' restaurant you're hit with the actual realities that it's not a fantasy world where everyone likes Ostrich Pizza and that you'll be able to set up a shop in the heart of town where large amounts of people will flock to your restaurant with little overhead.
You have to start thinking in terms of the market and the reality that New Hampshirites might not care for Ostrich Pizza and your sales will be dismal while finding a location might be more difficult considering the low cost areas of the state are also the low population areas while the high population areas are very high cost.

Though this reality would've been the same for any of the chosen states.

The Free State is no longer a fantasy land where all of your dreams can come true. It's an actual state that needs hard work and dedication to move it closer to the land of our dreams.
It's a harder sell now than it was before the state was chosen.

You said it best, Elwar.  We face far more realities now that we have chosen a real state.  For better or for worse, we've married New Hampshire as where this project is going.  Now, people don't just stop and examine us before joining, they also pause and ask what it is we see in NH, and it would have been the same for any other state.
Title: Re:Why so few new people joining FSP?
Post by: Kyle on January 06, 2004, 10:19:28 pm
50% of members who participate in the forums and read the poll are going no matter what...that's quite different.  It implies a more active individual.  Current average puts completion in 323.9 weeks, or 6.22 years.
When do we get worried?  The most recent count shows that a ten week average, if maintained, will get us to 20,000 in 468 weeks.  That's 9 years.
Title: Re:Why so few new people joining FSP?
Post by: rdeacon on January 07, 2004, 12:47:28 pm
Well, if the numbers are rising again, they'll eventually work out the dip from the last few months.
Title: Re:Why so few new people joining FSP?
Post by: FreeStateVol on January 07, 2004, 01:20:43 pm
  Well, I'm a 19-year old and I'm committed to going.  As I see it, in the next 70 years or so that I'm likely to live, no other method offers as good a chance for liberty within my lifetime.  I know that I have the advantage of being young, idealistic, and not really tied down by a family and a career, but I feel like I have to do something.  Besides, I don't think 20,000 people is an impossible goal.  I think I almost have my parents turned to the "dark side"  ;D and I know my younger brother is interested in the FSP.  Also, it would seem to me that since New Hampshire lacks a bunch of big social programs, a population increase would improvethe economy rather than hurt it.
Nicholas Roland
Title: Re:Why so few new people joining FSP?
Post by: Justin on January 07, 2004, 04:09:50 pm
Well, if the numbers are rising again, they'll eventually work out the dip from the last few months.

Agreed.  Note on the that we experienced the same plateau around the same time last year (near week 60 on the graph).

(http://www.freestateproject.org/about/multimedia/images/membership_10000_sm.jpg)
Title: Re:Why so few new people joining FSP?
Post by: rdeacon on January 07, 2004, 05:26:32 pm
Rock and roll - the FSP had me scared for a minute there!
Title: Re:Why so few new people joining FSP?
Post by: Dave Mincin on January 07, 2004, 06:36:49 pm
Hey folks...it's the HOLIDAYS!  2003 was an incredible and sucessful year for the FSP, and I trust 2004 will be better one! :D
Title: Re:Why so few new people joining FSP?
Post by: FSPTalker on January 07, 2004, 10:45:45 pm
I agree, having already made the move on Dec. 4th. I know I had two things going for me before I left New Jersey.
(1) Just the act of crossing the border into NH and declaring my new citizenship, made me a marginally freer person than I was in NJ. I was right. The people and the attitudes here have been a breath of fresh air.
(2) I'm an accepted part of a free community here. The FSP community, where I don't have to explain myself, defend my views or apologize for my "selfishness". Finally, some place where I can relax a little.
Of course, there is still work to be done. The statist assault is a given anywhere you go in the world today. But for the first time in decades I'm actually feeling OPTIMISTIC!!!
Title: Re:Why so few new people joining FSP?
Post by: bookish_lass on January 11, 2004, 02:35:40 pm
I read somewhere that there was a huge increase in traffic on the website after the SC ad.  A prospective member at our DFW meeting last night pointed out that you wont immediately see increases in membership numbers from that advertising.  People need time to think over a huge decision like this.  Most people can't just decide to uproot themselves and their families on the spur of the moment.
Title: Re:Why so few new people joining FSP?
Post by: FreeBoB on January 11, 2004, 06:12:41 pm
I agree, having already made the move on Dec. 4th. I know I had two things going for me before I left New Jersey.
(1) Just the act of crossing the border into NH and declaring my new citizenship, made me a marginally freer person than I was in NJ. I was right. The people and the attitudes here have been a breath of fresh air.
(2) I'm an accepted part of a free community here. The FSP community, where I don't have to explain myself, defend my views or apologize for my "selfishness". Finally, some place where I can relax a little.
Of course, there is still work to be done. The statist assault is a given anywhere you go in the world today. But for the first time in decades I'm actually feeling OPTIMISTIC!!!

Oh Yeah Baby!  That's what I want to hear!  Making the decision to move to NH has changed my life and I'm still in upstate NY.  I'm looking at my city and county tax bills here thinking that these are my last ones here - I'm so glad to have somewhere to go to live free.  I have lots of energy to get rid of useless household items -  to 'lighten my load', pay off debt, save up cash and research where in NH to live.  

I can't wait to move!
Title: Re:Why so few new people joining FSP?
Post by: FreeBoB on January 11, 2004, 06:15:13 pm
...and you can have a detailed look at the FSP website traffic here:  http://freestateproject.org/usage/
Title: Re:Why so few new people joining FSP?
Post by: Toowm on January 16, 2004, 06:22:45 pm
Keep Heart - the bulk of FSPers were always likely to have major personal issues with moving. It might make sense to have a poll in the forums or main page on people that are interested but waiting to commit.

Here's my personal journey - 1. Heard about project mid-2003, found website, wished you well. 2. Came back to site over holidays to find NH selected and spent several days seeing if it would work (job, housing, church, school) and talked with spouse 3. Concluded that current job would be difficult unless commuting to Boston; family concerns over major uprooting. 4. Have visited site and forums weekly and talked with liberty-minded friends, trying to think of other job choices 5. Joined forum today for this post.

I think I am on a path that leads me to NH, but you must understand that I will not sign the pledge unless my spouse, children and I are fully committed to the move. However, if we sign, I expect we would move right away.

You need the 20,000 to be people and families that build roots and relationships with each other and their communities.  For those who have done this in the current locales, give us some time.

TOOWM (Porc - The Other, Other White Meat)

P.S. Another PR idea is linking up with the world's smallest political quiz - you just need 1% of the two million people who have tried it
Title: Re:Why so few new people joining FSP?
Post by: Dave Mincin on January 16, 2004, 06:34:15 pm
Thanks for your thought Toowm, and welcome to the forum.

I believe we have begun to realize, how much we are asking of the folks.  We are currently putting together a Porcupine Directory in NH.  As it progresses we hope it will serve as a real and personal way for folks to learn of NH.  A networking system, for home hunting, job finding, and relationship building even before you actually take the plunge!

I'm thinking you have already taken your first step to NH! :D  Look forward to meeting you up there!

Dave
Title: Re:Why so few new people joining FSP?
Post by: BlueLu on January 16, 2004, 07:58:05 pm
The best advertising will be the early successes of porcs on the ground in New Hampshire in the next 2 years. - Lu
Title: Re:Why so few new people joining FSP?
Post by: Bruce_Morgan on January 16, 2004, 08:29:37 pm
TOOWM,

Real men and women don't sign pledges they may not be able to honor.  Thanks for being one of them!
Title: Re:Why so few new people joining FSP?
Post by: LeopardPM on January 16, 2004, 08:49:49 pm
The best advertising will be the early successes of porcs on the ground in New Hampshire in the next 2 years. - Lu
halleLUyah!  and amen!
Title: Re:Why so few new people joining FSP?
Post by: thrivetacobell on January 29, 2004, 08:16:21 pm
     Perhaps the general apathy of americans today is far underestimated... or perhaps it really is the 'cold' of New Hampshire. If it be the cold, it should be understood that the winters are relatively short lived, and are not so unbearable as those in the midwest, anywhere in canada, or alaska. Also, though Massachusetts born and bred, I have an extensive love of the southeast, for its climate, definately, but for its land and history and people... I have always intended to live in such a comforting and temperate climate, and if it were not for the Free State Project would currently  aspire to make a home and a life for me down there. This is, however, the only life I have, and I intend to represent it regardless of a little cold. I am one who has not given up on what should have been, and still may be.
Title: Re:Why so few new people joining FSP?
Post by: Dave Mincin on January 29, 2004, 08:26:02 pm
"Real men and women don't sign pledges they may not be able to honor.  Thanks for being one of them"

You got it Bruce.  What is a man, but his word?  We have pledged on our word of honor to move to NH, and the man of honor lives by his word!  Hey be seeing you in NH buddy! ;D
Title: Re:Why so few new people joining FSP?
Post by: Tracy Saboe on January 29, 2004, 09:34:55 pm
I also think that people who Can't move to New Hampshire can probably help make a huge difference by donating money to the NHLA, or the LPNH, and other Liberty minded groups in the State.

Tracy
Title: Re:Why so few new people joining FSP?
Post by: Dave Mincin on January 29, 2004, 09:39:58 pm
Agree Tracy we must all help as we can, together we have the potential to really make this happen!
Title: Re:Why so few new people joining FSP?
Post by: Tracy Saboe on January 30, 2004, 10:12:38 am
Thank you.

I meant to add something else.

Because by helping to make New HAmpshire Free, they are also helping to make their state free.

First of all the cheeper goods and such made in New Hampshire because of the free market and lack of taxes and regulations will raise their standard of living.

But also because an example of freedom will make their own arguments for freedom that much stronger in the state where they reside and in New Hampshire can ellect a couple libertarian Senetors then those other states will benefit as well.

Tracy
Title: Re:Why so few new people joining FSP?
Post by: RidleyReport on January 31, 2004, 12:47:29 am
The best advertising will be the early successes of porcs on the ground in New Hampshire in the next 2 years. - Lu

Actually it's the local freedom lovers who already lived there that show the most promise.  And they sure are on the move...  

I assume we have boosted their morale a bit, but right now it's their time to shine, not ours.  
Title: Re:Why so few new people joining FSP?
Post by: Burt Gummer on February 25, 2004, 10:46:36 am
Some of us are very reluctant to move to another cold weather state. If I have to leave my home state, I want to get away from snow and ice forever.
Title: Re:Why so few new people joining FSP?
Post by: penguinsscareme on February 25, 2004, 11:09:27 am
Then get a portable job, like restaurant work or construction, or work for a cruise line during the cold months.  You could live in NH eight months out of the year and winter down south.  I don't know, I can't solve the problem for you anymore than I can make NH's climate warmer.  But you'll either find a way to tough it out, or you'll find a way to not be here in the winter.  If you want to do it, you'll do it.  You'll find a way.  And if not, then you didn't want it that badly to begin with.

Andrew
Title: Re:Why so few new people joining FSP?
Post by: Burt Gummer on February 25, 2004, 11:59:34 am
My job skills don't fall into the portable jobs category.
Title: Re:Why so few new people joining FSP?
Post by: LeopardPM on February 25, 2004, 12:05:31 pm
My job skills don't fall into the portable jobs category.


this will be a very hot topic in the upcoming years: the mobility of our labor and skills in order for us to remain competitive in the (world) market.  Those with smaller skillsets will have reduced employment opportunities, and this will continue to be more prevelant in the future - Gear Up!
Title: Re:Why so few new people joining FSP?
Post by: FreeBoB on February 25, 2004, 12:14:44 pm
Thousands of people who are aware of the FSP are on the sidelines with various reasons not to join or commit to moving, and that's OK.  Some of us have already moved and some of us are moving as soon as we can - we've had it!  

As the very real changes we will help to make happen in NH are recognized, more and more people will find that their desire for freedom starts to take over their thinking.  It's already happening!  Just stay tuned in and keep your thinking caps on.  It's gonna be a roller coaster of a ride!   8)
Title: Re:Why so few new people joining FSP?
Post by: vermass on February 26, 2004, 01:47:27 pm
   Good question. Why are so few people joining the FSP. I believe the real reason is because they don't know if it will work. All this talk of NH being too cold is bologna. To be honest if that was the real reason someone wouldn't move would we really want them? How active are they going to be? How much sacrifice are they willing to endure if they can't even bear a little cold weather for freedom? How much do they really long for freedom? How much will they fight for freedom? I posted a "Valley Forge" comment somewhere. Ya, I wish CA was viable and chosen, you could live in any climate you wanted, but it's wasn't a viable state.
   If we have the numbers and fortitude we will not fail. If we don't have the numbers we may not reach all our goals but we cannot fail. We are already succeeding: most of us are moving no matter what the mumbers are. Winners!
    I admit to being angry, shocked, disappointed, discusted and a host of other emotions when it came to our slow membership growth. Where are all the Libertarian writers? Where are all the people who are fed up with the present system? Where are all the BIG mouths? Let them "put their money where their mouth is" and commit to the free state project and commit to it with all their heart!
   Activist? We need warriors! This is a call to arms! Not in the martial sense but in another sense. This is a war of the logic and rational. We use our votes, our pens, our hearts and our inexhaustable energy. Ours is the side of rightousness, the side of personal unallienable rights. We cannot fail. Failing is impossible. It has been said that freedom requires constant vigilance. We are vigilant,  we have already won, now we just need to work on obtaining our goals.
   Members need not get discouraged by our numbers, we will win, we will gather in NH and we will prevail. We don't live in a glass bubble, everyone else does.
   You who will not fight alongside us, lose. You lose because as long as WE fight, WE win, the fight is freedom.
   Members, do not despair! As long as our fortitude last we are winning! I'd rather fight alongside 5500 fellow FSPer's with hearts of Lions than live quietly alongside the Millions of sheeple. That includes the big mouths who rant and write but refuse to vote, refuse to join us.
   Half the eligible US population doesn't vote. They've given up. If we can give them hope.....
Title: Re:Why so few new people joining FSP?
Post by: Russell Kanning on February 28, 2004, 03:35:26 pm
     I agree. Many people have a wait and see attitude. But I get fired up every time I read an impassioned post from one of our members. I am proud to be fighting alongside you.
     One of the things I love about the FSP is that we are not just complaining about the government, we are doing something about it. It really affects the people I talk with, when they learn about what we are doing and that we are moving for no other reason but liberty. I don't mind that they will join later or will benefit from what we accomplish. That is what it is all about.
Title: Re:Why so few new people joining FSP?
Post by: Kelton Baker on February 28, 2004, 03:54:50 pm
I know this has already been said, but I am observing a curious thing about some potential sign-ups,  they use this excuse, "I'm waiting to see if they get 20,000 people first before I sign-up".  

I had someone tell me this at a meeting I attended this week and I explained to him that he still should sign-up because he is not obligated to move unless we get 20,000 signers anyways, so he should just sign-up to help us reach that goal.  He responded that he already realized that.  When further pressed for a good reason as to why he wasn't joining, he admitted that he just wanted to see big progress on the ground in New Hampshire first.  --So I guess this is what we are up against, mostly: people have heard of the FSP, agree it is a good idea,  they would join and move,  but they are waiting, and watching first.
Title: Re:Why so few new people joining FSP?
Post by: LeopardPM on February 28, 2004, 04:13:23 pm
...which is exactly why we need to consider outrselves the 'shock' troops - we need to effect some changes as soon as possible - create free towns!

I posit that we will never get the 20k people UNLESS we can show proof of our ability, even in limited numbers, to effect change...

My own personal feeling is that 20k is a ridiculous figure.  and it does not guarantee a thing.  if we actually start creating/freeing communities in NH - we will attract much more than 20k - and we will need to in order to affect laws at the state level...

michael
Title: Re:Why so few new people joining FSP?
Post by: Russell Kanning on February 28, 2004, 05:00:08 pm
     I had originally planned on staying in CA and recruiting others before moving to NH, but I agree that we need to help the cause of liberty in NH first and then people will follow. So I am moving to Manchester by May.
     My parents opted out of NH and are staying in WY. But when I started making firm plans to move to NH, they can't stand to be left out of the fun. :)
     So many of us are jealous of those who are already there.  8)
Title: Re:Why so few new people joining FSP?
Post by: LeopardPM on February 28, 2004, 05:08:54 pm
    I had originally planned on staying in CA and recruiting others before moving to NH, but I agree that we need to help the cause of liberty in NH first and then people will follow. So I am moving to Manchester by May.
     My parents opted out of NH and are staying in WY. But when I started making firm plans to move to NH, they can't stand to be left out of the fun. :)
     So many of us are jealous of those who are already there.  8)

Excellent, Russell!

this 'left out of the fun' attitude is another reason to start making changes ASAP - show everyone else what they are 'missing'... how would you feel if the american revolution was occurring but you were off in another country?  You would High-tail it back home to join in the 'cause'!!!

the folks will rally, we just need some focus/focal points....
Title: Re:Why so few new people joining FSP?
Post by: Dave Mincin on February 28, 2004, 05:15:56 pm
Hey Russel,

I'm told the weather is wonderful in NH in May. :D  Good to hear you will be coming on by to enjoy it!
Title: Re:Why so few new people joining FSP?
Post by: Russell Kanning on February 28, 2004, 05:36:35 pm
     I am really looking forward to it. The weather is always good in the 'free' state. ;D
     I meet so many people who say,'that sounds like such a good idea, but I can't go myself.' We won't get those people until they feel they are missing something by not moving to NH (freedom, lower taxes).
     I know retirees who have moved from places like CA to WY to save money on taxes (low sales, no income and low property taxes). How many of those people will we get when we can offer no sales, no income and even lower property taxes? Those are the kinds of people that can and will vote with their feet. :)
Title: Re:Why so few new people joining FSP?
Post by: Dave Mincin on February 28, 2004, 06:16:47 pm
Good point!  Can only speak for me, but have found in my limited experience that the system is really open here.  If we come in and are not a bunch of nuts, but are doers, respect the local folks, we can really accomplish much, and do it quickly.

Have already met many porc's who were not connected, but are now! :)
Really believe we need to be better organized, and once we are we can really begin showing that NH is the place for Freedom loving folks to come.

The Rep's and Senator's are accessible, will hear what you have to say, and on many issues that we hold dear will support us.  Heck I have had a couple of them come up to me when I have been throwing out my lala and giving me their cards!

Got invited over to a couple porc's house the day after I got here to have a few beers and pizza! :D  In the course of our conversation, well Michele said...with a big grin on her face, "If we had a 1,000 activist!!"

Thinking once we get connected, and with the folks coming in, we can begin making a real difference, real soon! ;)
Title: Re:Why so few new people joining FSP?
Post by: LeopardPM on February 28, 2004, 06:38:33 pm
Dave,
What is 'your lala' and why are you throwing it out?  ... or, perhaps, is this a question I really do not want answered...

no graphical descriptions required, thanks

maintains his own lala for private viewing arrangements only,
michael
Title: Re:Why so few new people joining FSP?
Post by: Dawn on February 29, 2004, 08:54:14 pm
So I guess this is what we are up against, mostly: people have heard of the FSP, agree it is a good idea,  they would join and move,  but they are waiting, and watching first.
This is good for us to all keep in mind - know well what outsiders are thinking about the FSP and why people might not join even if they support the idea. Not really surprising as I'm sure most of us have seen this kind of mentality in other situations. Many people are afraid to make a mistake so instead they do nothing!

So, as many of us as possible, need to get on the ground in NH asap and get to work. Any and all progress that is made in NH will need to be communicated regularly to FSP members and potential members so they can see that they need to sign up and get to NH quickly to help finish the job.

My ETA isn't firm yet but it should be soon!
Title: Re: Why so few new people joining FSP?
Post by: Jennie89 on July 10, 2005, 11:54:45 am
Well, as a newly signed up group, having just made the commitment, let me clue you in as to why others in my circle are less inclined to show up. I'll be blunt, they think we're extremists and they are cautious about extremists.

From my own experience, I was reading a thread about homeschooling. (My parents are leaders in the homeschooling community, always striving for less regulation. Educators would know thier name if I gave it out.). So I see  a simple thread with the suggestion that we eliminate public schools entirely. I'm intrigued. I like this idea. I throw in an idea of my own, and the regulars turn around and attack it like I've suggested mass murder. And I'm on their side re: homeschooling. :::shakes head::;

Using verbal aggression toward the people who've just signed on, and yeah, you'll see fewer people sign up. Other potential newbies look at that and probably say "WTF?".  It's not rocket science folks.

I bet you guys have alot more unique page views on these forums than you do members.  I'm not saying change views, but a little tact and a welcoming spirit go a long way. 

Just my newbie two cents.
Title: Re: Why so few new people joining FSP?
Post by: JasonPSorens on July 10, 2005, 12:03:27 pm
I bet you guys have alot more unique page views on these forums than you do members.  I'm not saying change views, but a little tact and a welcoming spirit go a long way. 

Just my newbie two cents.

Yes, some libertarians can be pretty strident. We even have a name for it, the "macho flash." ;) I actually think most Free Staters don't suffer from this condition, but they tend to be the quiet ones because they're off doing things. Those who positively enjoy argument tend to self-select on Internet forums in general (not just libertarian ones - this is a pretty welcoming place compared to, say, Free Republic, the conservative forum).
Title: Re: Why so few new people joining FSP?
Post by: Jennie89 on July 10, 2005, 12:13:38 pm
*chuckle* The macho flash, I'll keep that in mind.

I completely agree with your statement that "those who positively enjoy argument tend to self-select on internet forums". That's definitely true. But since this forum is encouraging people to pick up their homes and move long distances, then the impact of that aggression is all the stronger.  Unlike a regular forum, the FSP commitment requires a life change, and most people are going to be cautious. If they (rightly or wrongly) percieve it as just a project with in-fighting and aggressiveness toward sympathizers, than it's going to be harder to get that commitment.

So more nice people need to post :)
Title: Re: Why so few new people joining FSP?
Post by: JasonPSorens on July 10, 2005, 12:29:01 pm
*chuckle* The macho flash, I'll keep that in mind.

I completely agree with your statement that "those who positively enjoy argument tend to self-select on internet forums". That's definitely true. But since this forum is encouraging people to pick up their homes and move long distances, then the impact of that aggression is all the stronger.  Unlike a regular forum, the FSP commitment requires a life change, and most people are going to be cautious. If they (rightly or wrongly) percieve it as just a project with in-fighting and aggressiveness toward sympathizers, than it's going to be harder to get that commitment.

So more nice people need to post :)

I agree with you completely. Some people have suggested eliminating entirely the general political discussion boards on this forum on those grounds, but I'm not sure whether those boards bring in more people than they turn off. I recently saw another forum that required people to use their real names to post, which tended to create a friendlier environment b/c people had to take responsibility for their comments.
Title: Re: Why so few new people joining FSP?
Post by: Jennie89 on July 10, 2005, 12:59:23 pm


Some people have suggested eliminating entirely the general political discussion boards on this forum on those grounds, but I'm not sure whether those boards bring in more people than they turn off.

I'm sympathetic to that dilemna. Those general political boards lead to violatile conversations that can turn some away. But it does inform newbies about "what they're buying", instead of projecting a false view.

I recently saw another forum that required people to use their real names to post, which tended to create a friendlier environment b/c people had to take responsibility for their comments.

I'm a member of an online paid forum requiring real name sign up.  Any member can begin a conference (thread) of their own (Nuns who knit sweaters, for example).  The member of the conference creating it does have authority over who/what goes in it and can ban too. It's not considered censorship as any member who isn't welcomed is free to go off and create a "nuns who crochet sweaters and hate knitting" thread.  The only down side is that there may be 30 threads with various versions of "Nuns and the Fiber Arts", but the cream does rise. The members who run their conferences well tend to be popular and the thread-to-argue-for-no-reason types tend to fade away. (Threads that aren't posted to for 30 days by the membership drop off the active thread list or get deleted). It's free market economics in a thread version. I have no clue how to apply that in a FSP forum though. It would get very busy for the administrators of this forum really quickly.

So you still need more nice people posting. :)
Title: Re: Why so few new people joining FSP?
Post by: mikefam on July 10, 2005, 09:45:38 pm
being born in Mass  and have lived in VT  CA and now NH  I consider my self a Yankee so I'll share this ole tid bit I picked up while living in VT.   " if you cant handle the winter you don't deserve the other 3 seasons" and there is a lot of truth in that old Yankee saying.  let me just illustrate for all those people who have never spent a 4 season year in New England.

  the winters can be harsh and cold,on the other hand last winter was kind of mild compared to most,so not every winter is the same  some are harsh some are mild. I don't care much for winter but winter makes a great time to vacation,escape to visit some family in Union City CA. a trip to Vegas what a better excuse to travel than"winter sucks". i can tell you first hand with out winter the spring wouldn't look so good  the Maple sap turning to syrup wouldn't smell as sweet and blooming flowers wouldn't look so pretty. after you had enough of spring(grass pollen tree pollen)  summer arrives  Humidity  on the "down low" ,time to hit the lakes do some fishing ,go to canobie lake park ,take the family or loved one up north catch the view from MT Washington check out the natural wonders, true the Old man has fallen, but the Flume is still there and so is lost river. Today is summer and i rode 65 miles of trails on my DRZ400 trail bike(what a good day for it too) summers are very bare able up here In NH you could spend virtually every day outside(less the rainy days for me though)  as Autum Approaches  and the time is near  county Fairs begin  all marching toward Hopkinton (State fair)[All those people attending PORC FEST from Afar should take some time to attent N.Haverhill fair  its the same weekend as porc fest] taste some fresh milk with pure maple syrup  or some of the other wondrous items for sale at the fairs. The Autum up here is wonderful,cool crisp nights(great for sleeping) nice warm days to still have fun,fresh Sweet corn at every farm stand and do i have to mention foliage  of course I do  yellows oranges reds purples browns too  Mother Nature puts on her Grand fireworks shows,first the birches turn yellow then the swamp maples with their deep red's and the most wondrous Sugar Maple's with their fiery oranges .  ( I bet you can guess what I love the most about New England life). after the leaves fall its time to pick em up, Make a pile jump in it its pure simple fun or make a scarecrow to scare all the little kiddies on the eve of hallows,then its time to hunker down for the winter with the wood shed full and the wood stove ready (ever wonder where the ole Yankee farmers got the time to have those huge families"The Winter")
snowball fights for the young and young at heart,ice skating on the pond,snowmobiling,skiing,ice fishing(bet you never figured there was so much to do in the frozen tundra).

  so please I beg of you  don't let the Winter blues keep you from joining the Free State Project. Join US at least give it a try with property values pretty constant up here you could always sell and go back from whence you came  but consider if the free state project actually work's out  maybe there could be another free state sometime in our future and in might be a warm one.

                                                                                           your friend in LIBERTY
                                                                                            MR. Michael Famolare
Title: Re: Why so few new people joining FSP?
Post by: Mark in OC on July 12, 2005, 01:25:26 pm
MR Michael Famolare,

You do make sound sooo appealing.  :)  I just signed up here and this is my first post.  I was born and raised in LA (except for 3 years in WI during the early '60's-go Packers!) and now I'm in Orange County.  I've heard of this Project about a year ago and have become more interested in it through the Free Talk Live podcast.  One thing that concerns me, from a previous post:  What is BLACK FLY season.?  :o  It doesn't sound very good.   I mean granted, we can see our air, feel the ground move, watch the hills blaze and the neighbors riot, can't get a ccw to protect ourselves because we're in communist Kalifornia, but BLACK FLY season!?!
Is it as bad as Jerry Brown's Medfly's?

Glad to be here...  :D
Title: Re: Why so few new people joining FSP?
Post by: Russell Kanning on July 12, 2005, 01:32:58 pm
The black flies are bearable...our bugs are like WI ....or a little better :)
Title: Re: Why so few new people joining FSP?
Post by: Mark in OC on July 12, 2005, 01:37:56 pm
The skeeters and other bugs SUCK in WI.  So you're saying NH is a step above sucky!?!
Title: Re: Why so few new people joining FSP?
Post by: Russell Kanning on July 12, 2005, 03:10:36 pm
The skeeters and other bugs SUCK in WI.  So you're saying NH is a step above sucky!?!
Maybe :)
Title: Re: Why so few new people joining FSP?
Post by: MaineShark on July 12, 2005, 03:48:56 pm
The bugs aren't as much of an issue, because we're more heavily-armed...  A 20-guage shotgun will make short work of even the largest mosquitos.  You may want a 12-guage during black fly season...

Joe
Title: Re: Why so few new people joining FSP?
Post by: FTL_Ian on July 12, 2005, 04:07:20 pm
Ahh the price to pay for Liberty.  Which will be the biggest challenge in NH, black flies or bureaucrats?   ;D
Title: Re: Why so few new people joining FSP?
Post by: MaineShark on July 12, 2005, 04:08:30 pm
Is it possible to genetically modify black flies to seek out only bureaucrats?

Kill two birds with one stone...

Joe
Title: Re: Why so few new people joining FSP?
Post by: mikefam on July 12, 2005, 05:19:23 pm
Welcome Mark in OC,  being that i lived in the bay area for 4 years I can tell you the specific reason i left Kalifornia  Seat belt law  i seriously got sick of being profiled and pulled over by the Kalifornia storm troopers  i got my 3rd ticket one night after a hard days work on my yard and i wanted a burger real bad I immediately went home and told the wife" were moving back east.  luckily  for me (being an x masshole) i chose to settle down in NH.
  the black flies are wicked depending where you live( I'm in the forrests of northern Hillsboro county) but they only last about a month then the mosquitoes come out there nasty too but after a few weeks (depending on the rain) they ease up and the day time is quite bug free  there are things one can do to mitigate the bugs  ,keep the standing water to a minimum  and buy a mosquito magnet( i love mine) its extremely satisfying to empty the bag of dried blood suckers
Title: Re: Why so few new people joining FSP?
Post by: aworldnervelink on July 13, 2005, 09:00:19 am
From my own experience, I was reading a thread about homeschooling. (My parents are leaders in the homeschooling community, always striving for less regulation. Educators would know thier name if I gave it out.). So I see  a simple thread with the suggestion that we eliminate public schools entirely. I'm intrigued. I like this idea. I throw in an idea of my own, and the regulars turn around and attack it like I've suggested mass murder. And I'm on their side re: homeschooling. :::shakes head::;

Uh... first you stated that "every child has a right to an education" and then in your followup post you used the word "entitled". Not exactly mass murder, but certainly mass socialism. Homeschooling is great, but why do you cling to the notion that any individual is financially responsible for educating someone else's children?
Title: Re: Why so few new people joining FSP?
Post by: Jennie89 on July 13, 2005, 10:07:06 am
I support anerveworldlink massive homeschooling instead of massive public school building. That's not mass socialism. Just because I believe that children do have a right to be educated does not mean that I believe public schools are the way to best accomplish that.

I'm out of the Education threads on this forum myself, I didn't find the area to be fruitful. Of course, other people's mileage may vary, and they may find it invigorating.  But if you're serious about discussing education in depth, feel free to message me.
Title: Re: Why so few new people joining FSP?
Post by: coteyankee on July 15, 2005, 07:00:11 pm
Hi, I'm a relatively new member, and am seriously thinking of moving to NH.  We'll be starting over from scratch, without much money, thanks to our "let's sue someone" culture of late, but my husband and I need to seriously think about moving from this hell hole of a state called NY.  We live upstate, on a farm, and like the rural life, although our little pizza place is in the city.

We need to find a way to find out more about NH...I know it is beautiful, and the weather won't be much different than it is here...some bad cold snaps in the winter, and sweltering heat in the summer.  We are close enough to take a drive, but have to decide which is the best place to settle.  We're not looking to be rich, we're looking to be free.

Any advice from anyone in NH would be greatly appreciated!

Title: Re: Why so few new people joining FSP?
Post by: Russell Kanning on July 15, 2005, 08:01:21 pm
How big a town? How far from town?
Title: Re:Why so few new people joining FSP?
Post by: lloydbob1 on July 16, 2005, 10:19:00 am
Some of us are very reluctant to move to another cold weather state. If I have to leave my home state, I want to get away from snow and ice forever.


I thought Burt Gummer lived in the desert ;D

Out of the several Porcs that have made the move to NH, some of the most active, came from Florida, Texas and the California Desert.  No Snow!
Title: Re: Why so few new people joining FSP?
Post by: Gina on July 16, 2005, 01:19:38 pm
Hi Everyone!!!  Been surfing around your site for a while now(found the FSP after the Supreme Court's Eminent domain ruling really "ticked me off")......and I LOVE the whole idea!!! I have recently been involved on a local level for the last year or so, and realize that the only way to make a difference is to form a gathering.....this organization is ideal!!!  We will be attending the PorcFest this year, and am anxious to speak with all of you!  A move will be difficult ....but not impossible!!! The idea of freedom outweighs most of the negative that comes to my mind, (bear in mind, I live in NJ now!). Looking forward to meeting you, and changing my status from "friend" to "MEMBER".    ;)
Title: Re: Why so few new people joining FSP?
Post by: mikefam on July 16, 2005, 02:08:50 pm
YEA  GINA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  but do you understand that when you arrive in NH you will be expected to find another group to strive toward Liberty with? Meaning that once in NH your Pretty much on your own you'll need to get involved with Libertarian Party of NH or some other boots on the ground organization. Are you fully aware that the free state project ends when the goals are met? I would hate to see anyone move to NH thinking that the free state projet would be an organisation to effect political change only to find out the FSP is only tying to get 20,000 people to JUST move here
Title: Re: Why so few new people joining FSP?
Post by: Posterity on July 16, 2005, 02:32:51 pm
Welcome, Gina!  Glad to hear you found the FSP and see its importance.
Title: Re: Why so few new people joining FSP?
Post by: Dave Mincin on July 16, 2005, 03:25:34 pm
Hi Gina,

Welcome to the forum, and so glad you found us. :)  As one of the early movers please understand we understand the difficulties of uprooting your life, but also know when you arrive there will be lots of freestaters to welcome you.  Never have I felt such energy, ever!

Please understand we are not miracle workers, but know we are plugged into most of the major freedom groups in NH, and word I get from all of them is....hope you folks keep coming....we can sure use your help.

Look forward to meeting you and yours at the Porc Fest, and expect you will feel the energy! :)

Regards,
Dave Mincin
Title: Re: Why so few new people joining FSP?
Post by: Russell Kanning on July 17, 2005, 06:39:03 am
We will be attending the PorcFest this year, and am anxious to speak with all of you!

See you at site #16 ..... we will be telling jokes around the fire 8)

Watch out for a "Mincin Hug" :-X
Title: Re: Why so few new people joining FSP?
Post by: Friday on July 17, 2005, 07:19:25 am
Well, as a newly signed up group, having just made the commitment, let me clue you in as to why others in my circle are less inclined to show up. I'll be blunt, they think we're extremists and they are cautious about extremists.

From my own experience, I was reading a thread about homeschooling. (My parents are leaders in the homeschooling community, always striving for less regulation. Educators would know thier name if I gave it out.). So I see  a simple thread with the suggestion that we eliminate public schools entirely. I'm intrigued. I like this idea. I throw in an idea of my own, and the regulars turn around and attack it like I've suggested mass murder. And I'm on their side re: homeschooling. :::shakes head::;

Using verbal aggression toward the people who've just signed on, and yeah, you'll see fewer people sign up. Other potential newbies look at that and probably say "WTF?".  It's not rocket science folks.

I bet you guys have alot more unique page views on these forums than you do members.  I'm not saying change views, but a little tact and a welcoming spirit go a long way. 

Just my newbie two cents.
Jennie, welcome!  :)  I totally know where you're coming from. I had a very similar experience when I first joined the FSP.  I was so happy and excited, and looking forward to meeting new people who believed in the same things I did. I posted a friendly self-introduction... and not even crickets chirped in response.  The first time I made a suggestion, it was shot down by a former member of the leadership with a notoriously sharp tongue. I felt so cowed, I don't think I posted again for an entire year.  (This was on a Yahoo group that predates this forum.) Thank you for pointing out that this is still going on; we (the FSP) really should work on this.   
Title: Re: Why so few new people joining FSP?
Post by: Friday on July 17, 2005, 07:27:41 am
Glad to be here...  :D

Glad to have you, Mark!  :)  I just moved to NH a month ago from California; haven't seen a black fly yet. Not many mosquitos, either (I HATE mosquitos)
Title: Re:Why so few new people joining FSP?
Post by: whiskyrebellion on July 18, 2005, 09:57:09 pm
It's really no big deal at all.  Hundreds of people opted out of New Hampshire.


that is because those people who opted out of New England believe for the most part, that 20,000 people will have a hard time succeeding in the state of NH.

where as 20,000 people in the least populated state would be able to politically control 13 counties, that is over half the state.

which would you rather have, maybe 1 or 2 counties, or half the state.

FSP is a numbers game, the more people there are in a less populated state will have more chance of success.

and NH is not that state.

that is why I was one of the people that opted out of new england.


former member number of about #532
Title: Re:Why so few new people joining FSP?
Post by: Russell Kanning on July 19, 2005, 07:18:12 am
So, did you move to ND, or do you already live there  ::)

 ;D
Come join us in the NH rebellion.....or make it happen where you are 8)
Title: Re: Why so few new people joining FSP?
Post by: Mark in OC on July 19, 2005, 12:17:43 pm
Glad to be here...  :D

Glad to have you, Mark!  :)  I just moved to NH a month ago from California; haven't seen a black fly yet. Not many mosquitos, either (I HATE mosquitos)

Thanks Friday.  Glad to be here.  I'm a bit of an information gatherer, so I'm just checking out the site here, reading up on everyone's thoughts and also listening to Free Talk Live.  Pretty soon I'll have to bring up the subject at home and see how the wife and kids think about the whole idea.  The wife is always talking about wanting to move to a place with seasons, (grew up in Texas & Ohio), but my girls are pretty much beach bums.
As for muleskinner, making it a gun mecca sounds pretty good.  I just got a CCW from Utah, so I can carry in 27 states EXCEPT my own!  Oh well, I'm traveling cross country by car with my girls this summer, so I figure I should at least be legal in some of the states I go through. ;)
Title: Re:Why so few new people joining FSP?
Post by: Posterity on July 19, 2005, 01:08:26 pm
FSP is a numbers game, the more people there are in a less populated state will have more chance of success.

I disagree that it's strictly a numbers game.  There are many other factors that come into play.

Plus, there's a reason why Wyoming is the least populous state in the union; it's not some undiscovered paradise.
Title: Re:Why so few new people joining FSP?
Post by: Posterity on July 19, 2005, 02:53:55 pm
FSP is a numbers game, the more people there are in a less populated state will have more chance of success.

I disagree that it's strictly a numbers game.  There are many other factors that come into play.

Plus, there's a reason why Wyoming is the least populous state in the union; it's not some undiscovered paradise.

WY is not the least populous state.  See ND, it has a lower population and is losing people.  ND was, by far, the last place state in the state vote.  SO, almost all of the people that voted in the FSP vote agree that population is not the most important issue.

According the U.S. Census (http://factfinder.census.gov/servlet/GCTTable?_bm=y&-geo_id=01000US&-_box_head_nbr=GCT-T1-R&-ds_name=PEP_2004_EST&-_lang=en&-redoLog=false&-format=US-9S&-mt_name=PEP_2004_EST_GCTT1R_ST2S&-_sse=on), ND has more people than VT and WY.  Wyoming is the least populous.  (Washington DC has more people than Wyoming!)
Title: Re:Why so few new people joining FSP?
Post by: freedomroad on July 19, 2005, 03:16:43 pm
FSP is a numbers game, the more people there are in a less populated state will have more chance of success.

I disagree that it's strictly a numbers game.  There are many other factors that come into play.

Plus, there's a reason why Wyoming is the least populous state in the union; it's not some undiscovered paradise.

WY is not the least populous state.  See ND, it has a lower population and is losing people.  ND was, by far, the last place state in the state vote.  SO, almost all of the people that voted in the FSP vote agree that population is not the most important issue.

According the U.S. Census (http://factfinder.census.gov/servlet/GCTTable?_bm=y&-geo_id=01000US&-_box_head_nbr=GCT-T1-R&-ds_name=PEP_2004_EST&-_lang=en&-redoLog=false&-format=US-9S&-mt_name=PEP_2004_EST_GCTT1R_ST2S&-_sse=on), ND has more people than VT and WY.  Wyoming is the least populous.  (Washington DC has more people than Wyoming!)

Thanks.  I don't know what I was thinking, but I was wrong.
Title: Re:Why so few new people joining FSP?
Post by: whiskyrebellion on July 20, 2005, 11:48:42 pm
So, did you move to ND, or do you already live there  ::)

 ;D
Come join us in the NH rebellion.....or make it happen where you are 8)


I will be on my way to Wyoming in May of 2006. I already have a home there and will be moving when I get done with a few more things here.
Title: Re:Why so few new people joining FSP?
Post by: whiskyrebellion on July 20, 2005, 11:51:41 pm
FSP is a numbers game, the more people there are in a less populated state will have more chance of success.

I disagree that it's strictly a numbers game.  There are many other factors that come into play.

Plus, there's a reason why Wyoming is the least populous state in the union; it's not some undiscovered paradise.


but that is what it is, it is always been a numbers game, otherwise any state could have been done.

the 10 least populated states were chosen because they were the least populated.

Wyoming is the only viable choice, and that is where I will be going, to join up with the FSW movement already going on there.
Title: Re: Why so few new people joining FSP?
Post by: caroline on July 21, 2005, 01:09:49 pm
My (or "our"- it's my husband and me but he doesn't use this forum) reason for hesitating is that, while I think the project is fascinating, we're no longer sure we're interested in New Hampshire. We haven't spent enough time there to know if we'd be satisfied or not, but as in any lifesyle change there's the catch-22 that we wouldn't move to a place without having some idea of what things would be like there, so can't get one without the other.

If we do choose NH, Manchester or greater Manchester is the only place we'd consider...every other area is too remote for us, or specifically for me. I grew up in a small town and at this stage in my life I don't like rural settings at all (well to visit or vacation of course it's nice, but not to live). Currently we live in a city of 127,000- bigger than Manchester, and we're both bored out of our minds. Of course there's the good point that Boston isn't far away, but we're not sure that there would be enough reasons to justify living in NH versus MA.

I agree with a previous poster about seatbelt and helmet laws. I don't mind that those laws are in place because I wear my seatbelt regardless, so it wouldn't make me feel any more free if I had a choice (technically speaking I would be more free, but it wouldn't feel that way).

Someone said a while back that the no sales tax thing simply means that other revenues make up for that...as far as I've heard, the property taxes there are among the highest in the nation, which sounds a tad daunting to a young couple who wants to be able to afford a nice house with a scrap of land. As it is now, we'll probably be able to "inherit"(buy at significant discount) my family's homestead in western MA, so that would be our priority before investing in NH. NH also isn't the only state without a sales tax but as someone put it "they get you in other ways"...so I think that all things considered, the sales tax might be preferable.

The freedom of gun ownership would impress my husband, but not me. I personally dislike guns anyway.

I'm also concerned about insufficient population density in NH when considering promoting my creative-sector business (the more research I do, the more it sounds like we should be in a place like NYC) It seems that a lot of the jobs in New Hampshire are in the high-tech or public service (i.e. nursing, teaching) sector, or forestry? (I didn't say all, but it seems that many are) That's the same as the city where we currently live, and it's just not working out for us here.

Another big question mark for me is that I'm not sure I want to be an activist. I went through my "down with the system" phase when I was a teenager and now at this stage I'm more interested in promoting mentoring opportunities for women's issues and emotional support (motherless daughters, intercultural traveling and living, etc) activities, neither of which seem to be as prevalent in NH as they are in MA and NY. My husband has little interest in politics and I doubt he can be counted on to promote FSP.

I was dismayed when I learned that our beloved housepet is illegal in NH. Our pet is also illegal in the rest of the New England states, but what I mean is that this combined with the other points doesn't make NH seem any more free to us than the other states.

Now of course this doesn't mean we're definitely not moving to NH, but it just means that we're finding fewer reasons to move there. We'll see. In any case, for the sake of those who are passionate about it, I do hope that the project continues and who knows, we might want to become part of it after all.
Title: Re: Why so few new people joining FSP?
Post by: Dreepa on July 21, 2005, 07:56:48 pm
No one is going to search your house for your chipmunk.
Maybe you can even help change the laws in NH to allow them.

There are many ways to be an activist.. find the method that suits you.

No income tax and no sales tax.  MA has both and property taxes.  Add the three up and they will be more than just property taxes in NH.  I am moving from CA.  What I currently pay in income tax will more than pay for my future property tax.

Best of luck whatever you decide.
Title: Re: Why so few new people joining FSP?
Post by: FTL_Ian on July 21, 2005, 08:00:40 pm
Agreed.  Being an activist means doing *something*.  For some people that's holding signs at a protest, others it's calling talk shows, others it's stuffing envelopes or writing letters to the editor.

In regards to the anti-chipmunk law, I agree with Dreepa.  Bad laws deserve to be broken.
Title: Re: Why so few new people joining FSP?
Post by: freedomroad on July 21, 2005, 11:28:31 pm
If we do choose NH, Manchester or greater Manchester is the only place we'd consider...every other area is too remote for us, or specifically for me. I grew up in a small town and at this stage in my life I don't like rural settings at all (well to visit or vacation of course it's nice, but not to live). Currently we live in a city of 127,000- bigger than Manchester, and we're both bored out of our minds. Of course there's the good point that Boston isn't far away, but we're not sure that there would be enough reasons to justify living in NH versus MA.

Yeah, I live in the largest city in my state (I think it is the 35 largest city in the US or something) and I'll likely live near a large city in NH.  That is pretty easy because cities like Salem are only 30 min from Boston.  Of course, 200,000+ people live in Mass on the NH/MA border near Salem.  The seacoast region of NH is not rural.

However, it is important to remember that the FSP is not about the current freedom in NH, it is about the freedom that will exist in NH once thousands of liberty activists have moved to NH.  Even though NH is likely the freest state in the nation (and has been rated the best state to live in), that is not the point.  In 5, 10, 15 years, after we work a little in NH, it will be in much better shape than it is now (while states like Mass will be much worse than they are now).  Come join us and be a part of this great movement.  It will be too much fun to miss.
Title: Re: Why so few new people joining FSP?
Post by: DanaInNV on September 03, 2005, 03:42:54 pm
After reading through the forums I can only answer for myself and I'll probably be bashed to death but here goes.... I think you have a wonderful idea, in theory anyway.  It certainly attracted me enough to at least take a look. 

One thing that scared me half to death was looking up who your state senators were.  Sorry but no way Jose, can't bring myself to put myself in their domain. 

Read through tons of posts and saw that guns are a huge issue for many.  We can already carry guns here and a lot of people do, right into the grocery store and local businesses, no big deal.  Prostitution and gambling are also legal here, also no big deal, doesn't affect me or anyone else not involved with it here.  We do not have a state tax, yes we do have sales tax...the Las Vegas tourists pay for a lot of the "infrastructure" here.  You can open nearly any business nearly anywhere in this county, very minimal zoning restictions.  If you take in less than 10k in gross receipts you do not need a business license or any other kind of permit.  Law enforcement-I hear they exist here, there are occasional sightings.  Pretty much confine themselves to serious crimes...murder, rape, etc.  Traffic enforcement almost non-existant, driving here is SERIOUSLY hazardous to your health.  Traffic rules are considered a suggestion.  Oh, and yes, many people homeschool their children.  Basically most of the things I see people posting about already exist here.  Is it paradise?  Absolutely not, nor is it the worst place on earth either.  There are trade offs.  Expect to be self sufficient, don't expect police protection, do not expect quick ambulance service if you become ill.  Expect to meet a lot of nutballs.  Know that your chances of dying in a traffic accident are several times higher than the national average.  Basically I like it here in spite of the drawbacks but after reading the forums I have huge doubts that many of the people moving to NH would be able to cope in REAL life with the type of society you'll get if you are successful.  It would be paradise if all people were sane, rational, and minded their own business.  Unfortunately a lot of people are not any of those things and you will get herds of those the minute they get wind of a place to go with few rules.  I'm not saying it can't be done, I'm just saying it's important to be fully aware of the things you will have to do without and inconveniences you will have to put up with. 

I am totally supportive of what you are trying to do but at this time I would actually be leaving a "less restrictive" place for a far more restrictive one with a climate I'd hate and people who might or might not fully understand the end results of what they advocate.
Title: Re: Why so few new people joining FSP?
Post by: Russell Kanning on September 03, 2005, 08:51:31 pm
...so why were you attracted?
Title: Re: Why so few new people joining FSP?
Post by: FreeBoB on September 03, 2005, 09:09:41 pm
DanaInNV,

Thanks for your support, and I'm glad you're happy in NV.  If you lived in a shitty-ass state like NY, you'd be signing a different tune! 

State Senators, at this point in time, just don't matter.  In not too long a time, they will be a footnote in NH history.  We're just getting started.   ;D

Brian
Title: Re: Why so few new people joining FSP?
Post by: DanaInNV on September 03, 2005, 09:18:26 pm
Oh yes, if I lived in NY I'd have been in NH last year.   I sincerely hope Sununu & Co. do become a footnote and who knows...as population increases here things may change and NH is not totally out of the question.
Title: Re: Why so few new people joining FSP?
Post by: Russell Kanning on September 04, 2005, 08:10:04 am
After we get done in NH ..... there will be things going on here that are illegal in Vegas :o
NH will be a haven of freedom ...... and we have water  ;)

Vegas "What happens here. Stays here"

NH "Who comes here. Stays here"
Vegas is nice to visit .... NH is a lifestyle 8)
Title: Re: Why so few new people joining FSP?
Post by: JasonPSorens on September 04, 2005, 10:56:08 am
Not to try to change your mind... (Okay, well maybe a little bit.)

Here's the Nevada report we commissioned early on in the state selection process:
http://freestateproject.org/archives/state_reports/nevada1.php

Also, here (http://forum.freestateproject.org//index.php?topic=2439.0) is some information on the insane (I mean that in the most literal sense possible) Supreme Court of Nevada. ;)
Title: Re: Why so few new people joining FSP?
Post by: DanaInNV on September 04, 2005, 01:12:59 pm
I agree with both of you on most points there, far from perfect.  I don't live in Vegas though, not even in Clark county and there is a lot of difference from county to county.  Clark county is absolutely more restrictive.  FYI prostitution is NOT legal anywhere in Clark county including Las Vegas. 

The Yucca Mountain project is a huge issue here that concerns everyone including people in other states many of whom are probably not even aware that if this project goes through all that nuclear waste is going to be transported right over their railways and interstates regardless of wether or not their state had any part in producing it.  Believe me it's being fought tooth and nail here.  As it stands right now they've already had to extend the projected opening date, not going to happen by 2010. 
http://www.newsday.com/news/local/wire/newyork/ny-bc-ny--yuccamountain-let0831aug31,0,5041837.story?coll=ny-region-apnewyork

You having water is a huge draw :).  There is never enough water and in Clark county it passed critical years ago.  Where I am we all have wells as there is no public water supply and we are fighting the developers who are pushing to decrease lot sizes, we do NOT have enough water to supply a huge population and no one wants their wells drying up from the increased usage this would bring.  We also do not have gas and we don't want it thank you very much.  Some though not many yet even generate their own electricity.  We have an electric co-op that supplies most people.

So far we have voted down every attempt to incorporate despite having a population of roughly 30 thousand.  Again it has been mostly developers pushing for incorporation.  Eminent domain is pretty much a no go here and if anyone were crazy enough to try it they would likely be shot, not saying that is a good thing but that would be very likely to happen. 

I'd have a lot of concerns about moving.  Higher population densities, employment, cost of living (looked it up, significantly higher in NH).  My husband and I both work outdoors and the winters could be a serious problem for us...we don't sit in offices.  I would truly loathe being dependant on public utilities.  Very nice state for people who like towns and cities but I'm not sure we'd do well there.  We will probably visit in the next year or two to look around for ourselves, not 100% sold either way yet.  We aren't rich people but we own our land and home free and clear so it would make no sense to move if we would end up paying more to live, have to take on a mortgage to retain our lifestyle and possibly have to retrain for employment at mid-life.  Scary thoughts. 
Title: Re: Why so few new people joining FSP?
Post by: JasonPSorens on September 04, 2005, 01:48:59 pm
Relocation is definitely a big deal. In my position right now, I expect to build up my career qualifications a bit more before I'll be able to make the move. Everyone's situation is different - I know some people in the FSP who don't expect to move for another 5-10 years.

There are definitely places in NH where you would not have public utilities and the land (and existing houses) would be cheap. Probably 70% of NH's land area consists of such places. But those also tend to be the colder areas of the state, away from the seacoast and away from "city jobs." I think NH has something for everyone - except people for whom year-round warm weather is a make-or-break issue.

In any case, whatever you decide, welcome to the forum and please do stick around. If you like, you can sign up as a Friend of the Project and stay abreast of happenings that way:
https://secure.freestateproject.org/joinFriend.jsp
Title: Re: Why so few new people joining FSP?
Post by: JonM on September 04, 2005, 01:52:34 pm
The shame is that to found this country people only had to be willing to die for liberty.  If this were going to be easy to do, there wouldn't be a need for the Free State Project.  Ever corner of America has something different that appeals to different people.  We as a group ask others to give up what they love about where they are so they may make sacrifices in the name of increasing liberty for themselves and those to come after us.  It will not be easy, the deck is stacked against liberty in so many ways, but those of us near or in New Hampshire realize the deck is not nearly so stacked there.  I think the most important thing about New Hampshire is most of its residents are willing to at least consider new ways of solving problems.  This is not something that can always be said about other places.
Title: Re: Why so few new people joining FSP?
Post by: BrianMcCandliss on September 10, 2005, 03:28:11 pm
The shame is that to found this country people only had to be willing to die for liberty.

Not COUNTRY; UNITED STATES. People fought for their respective states, not for the states collectively-- save as allies in the cause of sovereign independence.

Once the states were no longer united by free choice, then freedom was likewise a dead-issue, with no meaning other than as an argument against the laws which gradually destroyed it.

As such, people aren't willing to fight oppression that they can't see-- the current impression holds that the states were never free individually, and hence the federal government can literally do no wrong. Once people learn that the states ARE free by law, they'll be willing to fight for it.

Otherwise, the FSP would be just like putting a "pork me!" sign on your back-- for without freedom, states have no TEETH-- as would the FSP without sovereignty as well. This is exactly what caused the Civil War in the first place-- the southern states were being forced by majority-rule to fund over 80% of the union's treasury. By "going Kosher" ala swearing off pork, NH would quickly find itself in the same situation, since it would have no means to balance the ruthless rent-seeking activity which currently swamps the states-- and people would leave just to avoid being caught as the one with an apple in their mouth at the pig-roast.

Quote
]I think the most important thing about New Hampshire is most of its residents are willing to at least consider new ways of solving problems.


I think MOST people are willing, if they are ABLE-- but without the liberty to govern their own affairs, there is NO ability to solve problems independently.

Otherwise, once freedom became the norm, natural selection would take care of the rest-- since a fool and his money are soon parted, and would quickly be bought out by more-realistic competition.