Free State Project Forum

FSP -- General Discussion => Prospective Participants => Topic started by: Overlord on November 28, 2003, 02:27:04 am

Title: I guess you could call me extreme
Post by: Overlord on November 28, 2003, 02:27:04 am
Is anarcho-capitalism welcome in the FSP?
I'm a total anarcho-capitalist who might tolerate the slightest bit of government.

What do you think? I mean, how extreme will NH be?
Title: Re:I guess you could call me extreme
Post by: Kyle on November 28, 2003, 03:04:55 am
There are many anarcho-capitalists among FSP members.  I'm sure you'll fit right in.  Here's what the FAQ says:

"Q. Who is welcome to participate?

A. Anyone who can agree to the clause in the Statement of Intent which says that you should support the creation of a society in which the maximum role of civil government is the protection of citizens' rights to life, liberty, and property. In essence, this includes everyone who wants to cut the size and scope of government by about two-thirds or more. Put in a positive way, most FSP members support policies such as abolition of all income taxes, elimination of regulatory bureaucracies, repeal of most gun control laws, repeal of most drug prohibition laws, complete free trade, decentralization of government, and widescale privatization. People of this disposition may go by many names: "classical liberals" (not the same as modern liberals at all, but followers of Thomas Jefferson and similar thinkers), libertarians, paleoconservatives, constitutionalists, voluntarists, etc., etc."



Of course, since you believe in no government, you would fall into the category of "maximum role of civil government is the protection of citizens' rights to life, liberty, and property".  There are several anarcho-capitalists on this board.  Herself and Robert are two examples, if I am not mistaken.  I myself am a minarchist.
Title: Re:I guess you could call me extreme
Post by: LeopardPM on November 30, 2003, 09:43:32 pm
I am a minarchist with Ancap tendencies... could use some clrification on some areas if you feel up to it... Zack Bass is a minarchist also but has a definite problem relation o 'agencies' and how hey would work and not become 'the biggest bully wins'

michael
Title: Re:I guess you could call me extreme
Post by: Ceol Mhor on December 06, 2003, 03:03:38 pm
I'm an ancap and a fairly longtime member. Noted ancap Claire Wolfe is also a member.

IMO, Overlord, it's our job as ancap to see that the FSP doesn't wimp out upon taking root in NH. :)
Title: Re:I guess you could call me extreme
Post by: Mike Lorrey on December 06, 2003, 03:27:30 pm
I am also ancap, but I am also a realist. I have no intention in letting anybody wimp out here, but I also know that getting as far as we want to go is going to be a long slog with a lot of education (in both directions) and incrementalism to get where we want to go.
I have no intent to march on Concord demanding anarchy now. We need to put together a much more measured plan of one step at a time, focusing our forces on one project at a time to maximize our firepower. Running around in black masks and smashing Starbucks will never win any converts.
Title: Re:I guess you could call me extreme
Post by: LeopardPM on December 06, 2003, 04:20:11 pm
so, you real anCaps, could you explain the whole 'agency' thing to me and why you think that 'agencies would not devolve into oppressive governments (biggest bully syndrome?
Title: Re:I guess you could call me extreme
Post by: Ceol Mhor on December 07, 2003, 12:44:00 am
Whaa?  ??? I'm not sure what you're talking about. "Agencies"? Can you elaborate?
Title: Re:I guess you could call me extreme
Post by: Mike Lorrey on December 07, 2003, 11:25:02 am
What he means are Friedman's Private Protection Agencies under Privately Produced Legal Systems.
Title: Re:I guess you could call me extreme
Post by: LeopardPM on December 07, 2003, 04:52:38 pm
yes, Mike - that is what I am referring to:

I have read Friedman's 'Machinery of Freedom' and agree with alot, BUT, after reading and re-reading the whole protection agency chapters I still don't have a clear concept of a working model... not enough info.

michael
Title: Re:I guess you could call me extreme
Post by: Mike Lorrey on December 07, 2003, 07:36:25 pm
Well, some fictional treatments are Vernor Vinge's novella "The Ungoverned", and Neal Stephenson's tongue in cheek depiction of such a society in "Snow Crash".

As I've said many times before, most things that governments do are essentially monopolies on certain insurance markets. Fire protection, police protection, unemployment protection, poverty protection, retirement protection, flood protection, fraud protection, money protection, invasion protection, etc.

Some of these markets are only partially monopolized. For example, fire departments put out fires and in many areas are publicly owned and operated, but fire insurance is a matter of private enterprise, generally part of your homeowner policy.

History shows that fire departments started off as either a subsidiary of, or a subcontractor to, an insurance company or companies. Fire departments put out your house or barn fire free of charge if you had a policy with that or another insurance company. Fire departments could and did contract to provide services to customers of multiple insurance companies.

If you did not have a policy with a company, you paid cash on the spot when a fire erupted, or else you surrendered a lien on your property, or else you put out the fire yourself.

In the Roman Republic, just around the time it transitioned to empire under Gaius Julius Ceasar, there was a fellow by the name of Crassus. Unlike the other patrician leaders of Rome, he was a self made man. He started off as a contractor for the many construction projects around Rome and on the penninsula. One necessary thing for every construction site was a fire company. Crassus found that his fire companies made money for him when he also contracted with neighboring building owners to provide protection.

He made even more money when individuals WITHOUT protection had fires and needed them put out pronto. The sight of him haggling over payment while patricians homes burned coined a new word that came down to us: Crass, as in crass commercialism. Eventually, so many people owed liens on their property to him, that he became the largest land owner in Rome, and earned his way into the leadership to the point he became one of the three Tribunes.

Ceasar, being a patrician, disliked Crassus as, well, a crass and crude commoner, and disliked what he perceived as the extortionate business practices with which his fire companies operated. Ceasar nationalized fire protection in Roman cities and made it a communal activity that all residents were obligated, under penalty of death, to participate in. This nationalization was helped by the fact that Crassus was killed in a battle in Thrace...

In any event, this is how private fire protection would occur. In a more developed ancap society, you would have an ability to contract for any service an insurance company cared to offer, including things today monopolized by government. In an ancap society, insurance companies would not be able to externalize their costs onto the people like they do now.

One reason this has occured in the modern day is because of capital costs. As you may know, Ben Franklin founded a private fire company through which he sold fire insurance policies. This was not difficult to do in those days, as all you needed was a crew of fellows, a couple wagons with man operated pumps, a water supply, some hose, and lots of buckets. It was not a capital intensive operation.

In the late 19th century, you had two new forces at work:
a) industrial companies and factory towns: factory towns were a common feature in those days, and factory companies imposed fire companies on the communities to protect the factory (for example, the Colt Factory burned over a half dozen times in the 1860's).
b) fire fighting equipment was created to pump more water faster, further, and with more pressure. Run with steam engines or early IC engines, these machines were very expensive to buy. Governments had an advantage in being able to borrow the capital needed at lower interest rates than  private enterprise could obtain. as a result, private fire companies slowly became coopted as publicly owned institutions.

Note that this is dependent upon the governments ability to obtain capital cheaper than individuals or private companies. In an ancap society, such an advantage would not exist, because governments, those that remained, would not have the ability to forcibly confiscate taxes and property from people.

Instead, what youd see are a number of insurance companies that would offer policies to consumers for all manner of personal sovereignty needs. Such companies may or may not have contractors provide the ancillary services needed, or provide them as a subsidiary operation of the corporation.

When a contract holder with one company violates the contract of another customer of the insurance company, the insurance company ajudicates fault, restitution, and penalties. If the crime occurs between contract holders of different companies, then the companies would have an arbitration agency ajudicate the issue and determine fault, restitution, and penalty.
Title: Re:I guess you could call me extreme
Post by: LeopardPM on December 07, 2003, 10:03:05 pm
Very Good!

actually I should have been more specific in my question:  I understand and believe in agencies (thus my AnCap tendencies), except I am not convinced how it would work in the realm of Courts and Law Enforcement.  since these two agencies (mostly the police) operate with the use of force, how are they prevented from bullying others?

michael
Title: Re:I guess you could call me extreme
Post by: Mike Lorrey on December 09, 2003, 06:05:07 pm
Very Good!

actually I should have been more specific in my question:  I understand and believe in agencies (thus my AnCap tendencies), except I am not convinced how it would work in the realm of Courts and Law Enforcement.  since these two agencies (mostly the police) operate with the use of force, how are they prevented from bullying others?

Market competition, specifically. The cops of one agency could not bully you if you had a policy with another agency, and the cops of your agency could not bully you for fear you would contract with a different agency. Cops in an ancap world don't enforce laws, don't forget. They protect property and people. They are business people. Hassling someone for no reason is not a profit generating enterprise.

Courts would also be a franchise enterprise. You haggle with those you complain against, or who complain against you, as to which franchise to have your case heard at, MacJustice or Court King or Judge Judy's.
Title: Re:I guess you could call me extreme
Post by: RidleyReport on December 09, 2003, 08:09:53 pm
Overlord wrote:

<<What do you think? I mean, how extreme will NH be?>>

In terms of the amount of individual liberty? More extreme than any other place in the world, I suspect.  That's not saying much, but it should be a better place to be than all the others.   It's already at least halfway there.
Title: Re:I guess you could call me extreme
Post by: Overlord on December 11, 2003, 09:26:53 pm
Thanks for the helpful responses. I'm only 17 at this point, so I can't exactly sign up.  If, however, our next president is particularly bad, I will move to NH as soon as I am done with college here in NC.
Title: Re:I guess you could call me extreme
Post by: Mike Lorrey on December 12, 2003, 12:40:58 pm
Thanks for the helpful responses. I'm only 17 at this point, so I can't exactly sign up.  If, however, our next president is particularly bad, I will move to NH as soon as I am done with college here in NC.

Wow, when did you start college?
Title: Re:I guess you could call me extreme
Post by: Overlord on December 13, 2003, 10:42:45 pm
I haven't started college yet, I'm still a senior in my local government instruction facility.

I'm up for parole next may.  ;D
Title: Re:I guess you could call me extreme
Post by: Mike Lorrey on December 14, 2003, 05:48:25 pm
Ah, well, why not move here asap and establish residency? When do you have enough credits to earn parole? What do you plan on majoring in, anyways?
Title: Re:I guess you could call me extreme
Post by: avantgarde on December 14, 2003, 11:21:27 pm
I think Overlord was referencing high school.  ;) Myself, I'm also in a similar situation... tenth grade.

At this point, I've been seriously questioning whether or not I'd like to go obtain any higher education. I'm really unsure of whether or not I could exist happily in such a restricted society.

However, I just found myself reading this site, and it sounds really, really appealing.

...And to introduce myself: hi, I'm James.
Title: Re:I guess you could call me extreme
Post by: Overlord on December 16, 2003, 12:43:27 am
Ah, well, why not move here asap and establish residency? When do you have enough credits to earn parole? What do you plan on majoring in, anyways?

I don't think my parents would be too fond of me moving just yet, as they would like for me to attend college here in NC.  I am planning on majoring in either political science (economics, or something), or Computer Science.. or both.

My parents kind of control the $$ although I have a job and I have made a little money for myself.
Title: Re:I guess you could call me extreme
Post by: Mike Lorrey on December 16, 2003, 10:57:45 am
Ah, well, why not move here asap and establish residency? When do you have enough credits to earn parole? What do you plan on majoring in, anyways?

I don't think my parents would be too fond of me moving just yet, as they would like for me to attend college here in NC.  I am planning on majoring in either political science (economics, or something), or Computer Science.. or both.

My parents kind of control the $$ although I have a job and I have made a little money for myself.

Okay. Do they know about your interest in the FSP? If so, do they realize that getting involved while in college here, if you major or minor in poli-sci, would greatly expand your educational experience?

Also, are you aware that there are scholarships available for liberty oriented individuals (see other areas of this forum)?
Title: Re:I guess you could call me extreme
Post by: rdeacon on December 16, 2003, 03:04:41 pm
Overlord, you could try and bug your parents to attend one of the schools up here.  We have ivy league Dartmouth and some other great schools.  I live in Keene, home of 5,000 student Keene State College.  It's a state school, but it's still pretty good.

BTW: I'm a Jeffersonian Constitutionalist, so you're probably more extreme than I am - of course you're extreme enough.  Don't worry about complying with the Statement of Intent, only a small fraction of us do  ;D
Title: Re:I guess you could call me extreme
Post by: Overlord on December 16, 2003, 03:45:54 pm
I don't think I can get into Dartmouth, but I am planning on telling my parents about the other colleges in NH. I haven't really mentioned to them how pro-FSP I am... yet.

And thanks for the scholarship tip. ;)
Title: Re:I guess you could call me extreme
Post by: Mike Lorrey on December 16, 2003, 03:49:55 pm
DOn't know your ethnicity, but Dartmouth was founded originally to educate the Indians. Today if you can prove a 1/8 or 1/12 indian heritage (can't remember exactly), you get a free ride at Dartmouth.
Title: Re:I guess you could call me extreme
Post by: Roycerson on December 16, 2003, 06:36:45 pm
Overlord wrote:

<<What do you think? I mean, how extreme will NH be?>>

In terms of the amount of individual liberty? More extreme than any other place in the world, I suspect.  That's not saying much, but it should be a better place to be than all the others.   It's already at least halfway there.

Dada,  The above post mixed with your previous statement that I am surrounded by freedom loving people begs to be addressed.  I came in after the vote so I am not privy to all that was said.  I've lived in a lot of places and before I came here I always figured one american town is pretty much the same as the next.  I haven't been proven wrong yet.  

There is a slightly larger population of freedom oriented people and hopefully a slightly larger population that have taken the time to investigate exactly what freedom means.  There are just as many laws here as there are elswhere from welfare programs to zoning to building codes.
Make no doubt about it.  Moving is the easy part.  We have a lot of work to do.  Ten years from now we might be halfway there.

I don't mean to bring anyone down or anything.  I just want to make sure we're all well informed.
Title: Re:I guess you could call me extreme
Post by: Mike Lorrey on December 17, 2003, 10:16:02 am
He is certainly right about Claremont. It has had a big government, anti-business political slant for many decades, which grew out of the mill unions back in the Roosevelt era. This is one reason why property values are so low there, so many businesses were driven out or scared away by the city government.

This is also why Claremont is an amazing opportunity for us. Its public attitude toward government and business has been turning, and it is a great town for libertarians to move to and help transform. This is not to say it will be easy, but numbers are the name of the game. THose that do will also find a significant boost in their property values as a result.... ;)
Title: Re:I guess you could call me extreme
Post by: Tracy Saboe on December 19, 2003, 12:44:03 am
We need anarchists in this movement.

I'm becoming more and more convinced that the existence of government is a contradiction.

Government is hear to protect our rights. Yet it has to steal from us through taxation to protect those rights.

2ndly, it has a monopoly in many ways on protection and law.

I'm not an anarchist ---- I'm willing to live with a few contradictions for the time being. But after we get rid of all the socialism and privatise everything else, I'm all for minamizing government courts and police -- untill their isn't a percieved need for it anymore.

I'm also a pretty radicle decentralist.  I think NH should be split up its over 3,000 cities and towns, into citi states. If their was more competition between different jurisdictions of government, governments would be forced to be more liberty oriented because they'd have to worry about Emmigration.

The only thing the State should provide is perhaps decence from the Fed's. But maybe that would be best left to the cities and counties too. Decentralised defence is much more effective then centralised defence.

We'd be much better off if the area of the US was 100,000+ soveran citi-states instead of 50, much less 1.

Tracy
Title: Re:I guess you could call me extreme
Post by: SBottari on January 19, 2004, 03:25:24 pm
My idea would be basically, no fed government and a return to town-halls and city-states for only the most pressing matters.  All other things could be handled privately.  The only thing tying the people in the country together is free trade and passage with a set of standards (weights measures, interfaces, and such).
Title: Re:I guess you could call me extreme
Post by: Morpheus on January 20, 2004, 12:17:27 am
Quote
BTW: I'm a Jeffersonian Constitutionalist, so you're probably more extreme than I am - of course you're extreme enough.  Don't worry about complying with the Statement of Intent, only a small fraction of us do

Then Liberty is as good as dead...
Title: Re:I guess you could call me extreme
Post by: LeopardPM on January 20, 2004, 03:17:22 am
only a small fraction of us do?

you take a poll or something?

never asked me

even if you polled al the forum users it wouldn't amount to much as most FSPers do not visit.

where do you get your data, sir?

an interested party,
michael
Title: Re:I guess you could call me extreme
Post by: Tony Stelik on January 20, 2004, 11:28:20 am
BTW: I'm a Jeffersonian Constitutionalist, so you're probably more extreme than I am - of course you're extreme enough.  Don't worry about complying with the Statement of Intent, only a small fraction of us do  ;D
O shit!!
But I do not believe it. All I know take it very seriously
Title: Re:I guess you could call me extreme
Post by: Mike Lorrey on January 20, 2004, 12:18:40 pm
BTW: I'm a Jeffersonian Constitutionalist, so you're probably more extreme than I am - of course you're extreme enough.  Don't worry about complying with the Statement of Intent, only a small fraction of us do  ;D
O shit!!
But I do not believe it. All I know take it very seriously

Yes, this is a test of your committment to libertarian ideals. If you see that individual integrity is a necessity in a free society, you will follow through on your statement of intent. If you don't, you'll stay where you are and we'll be happy you did.... ;)
Title: Re:I guess you could call me extreme
Post by: Morpheus on January 20, 2004, 04:16:09 pm
I am glad to see that there are those who share my concern.
Title: Re:I guess you could call me extreme
Post by: Mike Lorrey on January 20, 2004, 04:43:20 pm
I am glad to see that there are those who share my concern.

Yes, in the long run I think it is counterproductive to even attempt any kind of enforcement of our statement of intent. You either fulfill your pledge, or we don't want you. It is a rather easy selection effect.
Title: Re:I guess you could call me extreme
Post by: mark on January 20, 2004, 08:01:32 pm
I'm only 17 at this point, so I can't exactly sign up.  


You can still move. Trust me, it doesn't get any better as you age.
Title: Re:I guess you could call me extreme
Post by: Mike Lorrey on January 20, 2004, 09:13:42 pm
yeah, move as soon as you can. You'll be a member within a year anyways...