Free State Project Forum

New Hampshire -- The "Live Free or Die" State => Moving & Housing => Topic started by: mark on October 07, 2003, 09:29:27 pm

Title: Build or Buy? I say Build... and Create
Post by: mark on October 07, 2003, 09:29:27 pm
Much has been said about New Hampshire's high real estate costs. What I would like to point out is that while land cost do seem to be rather high (in many places) any high costs for existing homes are due to the fact that once any one location has been developed the owner has the ability to bid up the sale price to whatever the market will bear. This price will be far above and beyond any capital costs invested to aquire the land, materials and labor due to the fact "they're not making more land", atleast in that one location.


I suggest members seriously consider networking to create housing development corporations and purchasing large plots of off-the-grid or grid-edge properties and use an economy of scale (as well as an economy of values) to make development of such land competitive with municipality serviced locations. Such defacto unincorporated communities would have a better chance to leverage their contributions to the social wealth of the larger incorporated township so as to negotiate appropriate local autonomy.

Just an idea: one community market that might be worth looking into could be small, rural family farmers. Could they deal with a small 50 household community on a corner of their land? This class of citizen and lifestyle of the family farmer is in economic danger. From many of the posts on these forums we all know there are people who long for a view of nothing but green fields and trees; people who would be willing to swear an oath of honor to respect the local bioregional culture: to not turn it into a mere suburb. With the American family farm in such dire economic straits these days, why no innovative ways to diversify their income? I've never seen a family farm "importing" willing residents to provide capital income,  rent, tourism and vacation, local labor, investment (how much would you be willing to pay to keep that strawberry field out back pesticide free?), and all around community economic activity.


Then again, there's that issue of those 'city slickers' in Townhallville not allowing a 50 unit residence on a 10 acre (who really needs 25 acres per homesite for privacy and quiete when you live next to farm land?) stretch of "agricultural" land Oh well... I guess it was never ment to be...  ;)
Title: Re:Build or Buy? I say Build... and Create
Post by: mark on October 11, 2003, 09:02:15 pm
Hey Mark, great idea!  ::)  :P


Brian posted this message on the nhlivefreeordie Yahoo! e-mail list:



 
 
I've been writing privately to some of the activists, telling them a
little true story which might be helpful. But you all deserve to
hear it.

I knew a man in Wisconsin who eventually was able
to persuade many hundreds of people with his interests to move to
Wisconsin and live near him.

It all started when he saw a movie called "Field of Dreams." In the
movie, the inner voice kept saying: "If you build it, they will
come." (Something like that) So Kevin Kostner built it, James Earl
Jones gave a little speech every Free Stater would do well to listen
carefully to, and of course people came by the hundreds.

Anyway, this man in Wisconsin said to himself: "Oh, I get it! If I
build it, they will come!" So he remodeled his cabin to provide 6
little sleeping rooms and also a little 5 person dorm room." Then
he put out the word that he had space. Next thing you know, 11
people moved to Wisconsin to join him.

Those 11 bought 3 or 4 nearby properties and did the same thing.
Next thing you know, there were about 50 like-minded people living
within a 10 mile radius. Then a bunch more did the same thing and
the number jumped. Even a couple old motels were purchased. Soon
over 150 people lived in the area. Then even a big old resort hotel
was purchased. Their numbers jumped to over 300. Then some more
houses and some more motels were purchased. Then another big
gigantic piece of property where many could show up and temporarily
camp. There was room for at least a thousand like-minded people
before they started setting up branches in other countries.

This man had a good idea in his mind, but if he would simply have
said, "Please come here and live near me," probably no one would
have come. Instead he took it upon himself to build something. Then
he said, "Please come here and live near me. I have a place for you
to land." It made all the difference in the world.

You don't have to build cottages or dormatories. You can build a
network of supporters so there are already in place job connections
and rental connections. You can build a network of supporters who
are willing to put people up for short periods of time while they
explore your area. You can build "visitors programs." You can build
a few political successes to point to and say, "Come live near us.
Look what we've already started accomplishing!"

The point is: BUILD SOMETHING. And encourage your friends and
allies in your state to build something. Then when we advertise we
are not advertising a vacuum.

Every day, as you go through your day, keep this one thought in
mind: "It's up to ME! If I build it, they will come!"

Thanks for building something wonderful!

Title: Re:Build or Buy? I say Build... and Create
Post by: Roycerson on October 22, 2003, 07:34:57 am
Sounds like a good idea to me.  I have hands on construction experience in commercial and industrial environments as well as new home construction.  

I also have experience as an estimator on the commercial / industrial side with many hours logged reading plans and dealing with the practical side of scheduling subcontractors, addressing unexpected issues etc.  All of this on the Paint, drywall and metal stud framing portion of things.

Currently I am self employed as a remodeling contractor.  

Architects, General Contractors, and Building Inspectors are not strangers to me.  However I don't have the time or means to acquire the land, obtain the permits, sell the homes etc.
I would love to be involved in such a project particularly considering the desired outcome of a community of likeminded, presumably informed and intelligent, freedom loving people.  

In any event I build things and will need a way to make a living in New Hampshire.  Concurrently, Twenty thousand people will need homes to live in.  I am interested in anything that will accomplish both goals.
Anyone who is looking to further this idea or perhaps live in such a community please contact me.  I will keep a record of all such contacts and forward the information (with permission) where it is appropriate as things progress.

Roger Bottoms Jr.
Title: Re:Build or Buy? I say Build... and Create
Post by: mark on October 23, 2003, 07:34:15 am
Woohoo! The first reply to my thread other than from myself! Woohoo!  ;D


Roger, no doubt such an endevour would include the same logistical hassles the FSP is encountering now by organizing a diverse group of people and coming to a consensus on what, where and how to go about doing it. One area that seems like it could jumpstart such activity could be creating a cohousing/gulching group (http://forum.freestateproject.org/index.php?board=15;action=display;threadid=260) or even a community bank fund (http://forum.freestateproject.org/index.php?board=29;action=display;threadid=4029).

Two reasons for doing this would be to create a "landing place" for porcupine migrants as well as offering them a custom made / higher quality housing option than that which already exists (advanced housing design and like-minded neighbors) but this would also attract New Hampshire natives from outside the township / county where it would be built as well.


Title: Re:Build or Buy? I say Build... and Create
Post by: rdeacon on October 23, 2003, 10:33:41 am
Here's my take on it:

I come from near metro NY, so NH real estate prices and property tax don't seem so bad in comparison.  In Cheshire county, where I now live, you can get a decent 3br ranch for around $130K within the Keene city limits.  Outside Keene the same house would go for $95K-$135K depending on which community it was in.

Now, despite this, there are some great deals on land.  I've seen residential plots going for less than $10K.  These cheap plots (under $20K) ranged in size from half an acre to 5 acres.  Check this site for some good Cheshire County land deals: www.c21thackston.com (http://www.c21thackston.com)

Considering the cheap land cost, I would definitely consider building instead of buying.  I personally plan to build an Earthship: www.earthship.org (http://www.earthship.org)

Either way, whether you're building or buying there is a good mess of opportunities in NH.

Regarding communal housing/co-housing/whatever others in this thread are already talking about: there is currently no NH-based co-housing community (at least not one that I could find online).  I think there's a market for it.  Analyze that statement however you like.  I see a lot of rental property for sale, as well as space for unique living arrangements.

Hope this helps!
Title: Re:Build or Buy? I say Build... and Create
Post by: mark on October 23, 2003, 12:31:51 pm
Yep, there are some really great deals when the acreage is high as well. For example: 470 acres at $1700 per acre (http://www.pruverani.com/view_listing_land.asp?MLS=101211&T=4) in Hillsborough and zoned for 500 unit developments. $800 K might be a bit too much for a single buyer but get a few dozen people together and it's looking doable.  :D
Title: Re:Build or Buy? I say Build... and Create
Post by: Tracy Saboe on October 23, 2003, 03:16:48 pm
But how would we go about buying "just one acre"

Or even a quarter of an acre. That's all I need.

Maybe somebody can buy that big 470 acres, and then sell me an acre of it for twice the amount he paid for it per acre.

Or maybe I could perchase the entire thing, on a bank loan (RIGHT, like they'll lend me that much money),  and then sell 469 of it to somebody else. And pay most of my loan back. I would need to higher a survayer to plat out the 1 Acre that I want. It would probably the best acre. (access to the road -- but if not, I could negotiate a right of passage into the contract), hopefully a small water stream, and hopefully a bit of a north facing hill.)

Tracy
Title: Re:Build or Buy? I say Build... and Create
Post by: lloydbob1 on October 23, 2003, 04:39:39 pm
hopefully a small water stream, and hopefully a bit of a north facing hill.)

Tracy

I guess your going with growing grapes and not doing passive solar!
Title: Re:Build or Buy? I say Build... and Create
Post by: mark on October 24, 2003, 12:08:23 am
But how would we go about buying "just one acre"



We would go about buying just one acre by finding enough people to buy the other 469 acres we don't need. This buying co-op would be composed of a mix of people with various equity interests such as those that want a home site right now to those who want to make a socially-conscious investment to those that just want a quarter acre to those that want a big lot suburban estate.
Title: Re:Build or Buy? I say Build... and Create
Post by: ProteusLizz on October 28, 2003, 09:52:02 pm
Yep, there are some really great deals when the acreage is high as well. For example: 470 acres at $1700 per acre (http://www.pruverani.com/view_listing_land.asp?MLS=101211&T=4) in Hillsborough and zoned for 500 unit developments. $800 K might be a bit too much for a single buyer but get a few dozen people together and it's looking doable.  :D

actually..........that is a great price if we could somehow figure a way to get 470 people to agree on who holds the money and does the buying and such.  we would have to have like a sub-committee for housing :)  I would participate in that.  
Title: Re:Build or Buy? I say Build... and Create
Post by: JT on October 28, 2003, 11:34:51 pm
Sign me up for 2 acres.   467 to go...
Title: Re:Build or Buy? I say Build... and Create
Post by: Tracy Saboe on October 28, 2003, 11:53:13 pm
No, I mean the hill faces north, so I can build on the South Side of it, and build my underground house into it, so My house can face the south and get lots of passive solar heat. I also want Solar panels so I can run my TV, Computer, and Video games.

Did I say that wrong?
Tracy Saboe

hopefully a small water stream, and hopefully a bit of a north facing hill.)

Tracy

I guess your going with growing grapes and not doing passive solar!
Title: Re:Build or Buy? I say Build... and Create
Post by: mikefam on October 30, 2003, 08:55:14 am
I think it will bwe a while before you get a permit to build an under ground home. i 'm sure that dosent conform to planning board specs. consider Deering NH, a small town of @1800 just minutes from concord, manchester and keene I'd like to hand this town a slap in the face and do away with zoning and planning ordaninces, keep the town from building any schools or police stations  (as we have none now) we do have 3 fire stations though. lower the property tax by making the school system S.A.U. #34  issue its own tax bill. MOVERS UNITE in DEERING  NH !!!!!  WE HAVE HOMES FOR SALE HERE AND HAVE PLENTY OF LAND TO BUY AND BUILD ON TOO
Title: Re:Build or Buy? I say Build... and Create
Post by: Tracy Saboe on October 30, 2003, 04:06:51 pm
I shouldn't need a permit to build on my own land.

Now, if I interupt somebody elses water, by destroying the water table or something, that's a different story -- but it doesn't make sence to build an underground house in a place with a high water table anyway.

You think we should all just pick the NH city to move to and go there?

Tracy Saboe
Title: Re:Build or Buy? I say Build... and Create
Post by: rodschmidt on October 30, 2003, 04:21:50 pm
I shouldn't need a permit to build on my own land.

In Oregon, you don't need a permit to build your own house.  You only need a permit if you intend to sell it or rent it out.  Many people don't know that so they apply for permits, and the bureaucrats don't educate them.
Title: Re:Build or Buy? I say Build... and Create
Post by: mikefam on October 31, 2003, 12:02:18 am
i'm just thinking if some of the early movers got together and moved to a smaller town those people could start living the life of liberty by getting rid of the local BS rules and regs, like building permits ,driveway permits, excessive property tax via the way the tax bill is set up( there is state county town and school district taxes on 1 bill) thus making it tough to excercise ones right to freedom of assocation. i'm really just sayin build or buy, come check out Deering NH its ripe for the taking,, back .
          As for the underground house, just build on the high ground
Title: Re:Build or Buy? I say Build... and Create
Post by: mark on October 31, 2003, 03:43:53 am
Appealing to a town's voters with socially beneficial effects of underground and dome housing (environmental and energy conservation) could get people on our side. Unique housing solutions like co-housing which might be banned under "large lot" zoning (multi-family housing being zoned out) could be offered as a solution to the problem of few low-cost housing units. If porcupines build a private school (or homeschool) this will reduce the burden on the local town as well. According to CAIRE (http://www.we-caire-nh.org) that's one reason for so-called "large lot" zoning. From their front page:

Welcome to NH's Very own "little shop of horrors"

- A Socio-Economic Class Cleansing Program in disguise -

ACROSS THE NATION - the building of housing is severely restricted by "open space" laws, severe zoning ordinances and draconian environmentalist rules. Meanwhile, the building of apartments is made unprofitable by rent control.

IN NEW HAMPSHIRE - Unfair and discriminatory property taxes for education dollars has contributed to the shortage of affordable housing, has increased poverty, and homelessness.
Local officials know that more housing means more children to educate and higher property taxes. The cheaper the housing, the greater the imbalance between the taxes paid by the housing compared to the public cost generated by the housing so NH has large lot zoning (which zones out multifamily housing) that makes affordable housing impossible. NH has in a sense zoned nearly the entire state against children because of the fear of higher property taxes.  

This combined with an overall NIMBY (Not in my backyard attitude) and a populace at large in a general state of denial, with a dysfunctional and inept legislative body at the beck and call of its notoriously corrupt judicial branch at the helm, has created a population of refugees forced to migrate to areas of NH, and sometimes beyond, where subsidized shelter of any kind might be available.  

More and more dollars for education under the guise of "Its for the children" + oppressive, unfair and discriminatory property taxes = large lot zoning = less affordable housing = less industry = higher and higher prices = more and more working homeless and homeless = more and more people living in poverty." Because administrative bureaucracies at all levels, town, county and state often set up spending questions in ways which pit different interest groups against each other because the bureaucrats biggest fear is that if too many "feud" groups combine, they will have to change their ways of doing business. Deeper and wider this sinkhole grows and when and where it's going to stop nobody really knows.  


Title: Re:Build or Buy? I say Build... and Create
Post by: mikefam on October 31, 2003, 08:33:01 am
good luck trying to change these od Yankees, their kind have been running small towns like mine since the king was dethroned here in 1776. in all practicalcality i would need 30 to 40 voters to sit with me at town meeting and we could own this town in the name of Liberty
Title: Re:Build or Buy? I say Build... and Create
Post by: mark on October 31, 2003, 01:52:47 pm
good luck trying to change these od Yankees, their kind have been running small towns like mine since the king was dethroned here in 1776. in all practicalcality i would need 30 to 40 voters to sit with me at town meeting and we could own this town in the name of Liberty

Actually, according to the new-and-improved FSP model we would need only 20 activists in Deering with it's population of 1,910 persons.  ;D

mikefam, would you be willing to do some research on the local political scene there? I'm thinking we should start approaching this with local percentage of total FSP activist numbers in mind.
Title: Re:Build or Buy? I say Build... and Create
Post by: mikefam on November 01, 2003, 05:16:43 am
You are most likly right on with the 20 number, people always come up to me after town meeting a congratulate me for being so articulate and what not, I feel if there were more people (than the uaual 3)they would have participated in the process more fully instesd of being a spectator.  but I sure would'nt mind doing some leg work on the ground up here
Title: Re:Build or Buy? I say Build... and Create
Post by: mark on November 05, 2003, 06:37:43 am
You are most likly right on with the 20 number, people always come up to me after town meeting a congratulate me for being so articulate and what not, I feel if there were more people (than the uaual 3)they would have participated in the process more fully instesd of being a spectator.  but I sure would'nt mind doing some leg work on the ground up here


BINGO! Those 3 people feel like a downtrodden minority so why should they even bother, right? Please have a look at this thread (http://forum.freestateproject.org/index.php?board=37;action=display;threadid=4304) I started and ask those people if they would be willing to support the second part of the FSP SOI. Tell them they're not alone anymore.

Overlooked importance of recruiting NH natives as FSP members  (http://forum.freestateproject.org/index.php?board=37;action=display;threadid=4304)

Second part of the Statement of Intent reads: Once there, I will exert the fullest practical effort toward the creation of a society in which the maximum role of civil government is the protection of life, liberty, and property.

You all are already there! You can focus your energy and resources on the good stuff now rather than worry about relocation details like the rest of us!  ;D


ps mikefam (or is it just Mike?), perhaps what you can do is create a data reference report for your local area. Collect data on housing, jobs, market opportunities and the like. Then start collecting political, both current and historical, intelligence on town government. I'm sure the FSP research commitee will include it with the NH data when they finally publish it on the website. The  NH Community Profiles (http://www.nhes.state.nh.us/elmi/communpro.htm) site has some data on Deering but nothing like the living, breathing knowledge we need to really know a place.
Title: Re:Build or Buy? I say Build... and Create
Post by: mark on February 05, 2004, 12:28:01 pm
Example of a farm growing with a cohoushing community.

Blueberry Hill Cohousing (http://www.blueberryhill.org/history/History_PVF.html)
Title: Re:Build or Buy? I say Build... and Create
Post by: NHHomes on March 24, 2004, 12:53:50 pm
Zoning and subdivision laws depend on the town, so you just have to contact a town clerk to find out what is possible.  If multiple buyers are interested in purchasing a large parcel of land and subdividing it for multiple ownership/homesites, you can write the contract contingent on a study period which will allow you to determine the rules, do the perk tests, order the surveys, etc., and even line up buyers for the new parcels before even going to close on it.  

Let me know if you want to brainstorm on options, creative financing techniques, etc.  I'm happy to help anyone moving to this region find an experienced professional to help them buy land.  I can also help you in the Upper Connecticut River Valley area, near Dartmouth College.  If you don't need the help, I am here to bounce ideas off of or to locate contact information for anything you need to know.

- Gretchen from Hanover, NH

Title: Re:Build or Buy? I say Build... and Create
Post by: Chuckster on March 24, 2004, 03:14:51 pm
If I had seen this thread earlier, I wouldn't have started this one:

http://forum.freestateproject.org/index.php?board=42;action=display;threadid=6358

Perhaps the moderator can combine the two.
Title: Re:Build or Buy? I say Build... and Create
Post by: jnoyes on November 22, 2004, 06:31:36 pm
Hi all
Im planning on builidng an off grid  passive solar bermed house with associated green house, gardens, orchards etc...
Ive been designing this house in such a way that It can be small to start and expand when needed (as I also have plans for an coop/orphanage)...to start I wanted to buy the land raw go camping on it and use my vacation time in the summer and slowly build it to livability...

Just like everyone else money is tight...and while I can afford to buy 5 acres at $1500 per... the acreage that sells that cheap only comes in huge parcles....so thus no land....

we really need to get a coop or buyers-group together to pool money so we can actually consider one of these big parcels maybe even start our own town.

please feel free to contact me jeremy_noyes@hotmail.com if you're interested. :)

worst case scenerio we can all help each other find information about various pieces of land
Title: Underground House
Post by: rodschmidt on June 06, 2005, 11:57:31 pm
I think it will bwe a while before you get a permit to build an under ground home.

Call it a "cold frame."

Read "The $50 and Up Underground House Book"
Title: Re: Build or Buy? I say Build... and Create
Post by: wayneq on June 20, 2005, 06:55:05 pm
Build Our Own Homes!

I would like to recommend a local New Hampshire business based in Walpole, NH. The Company is called FirstDay Cottages. They offer some excellent homebuilding kits designed by an architect to be constructed by homeowners in 15-20 weekends. Here is their website:

http://www.firstdaycottage.com/

I have done some research on the kits and the company and I must say that I'm impressed. Check it out.

Maybe some of us could band together and pay each other to help build our new homes.