Free State Project Forum

Archive => Which State? => Topic started by: JasonPSorens on August 25, 2002, 11:42:06 am

Title: State Climates Report
Post by: JasonPSorens on August 25, 2002, 11:42:06 am
The State Climates Report by Jan Helfeld has been added to the website:
http://www.freestateproject.org/climate.htm (http://www.freestateproject.org/climate.htm)
Title: Re:State Climates Report
Post by: marciesmom on August 25, 2002, 01:53:05 pm
I'm glad Jan put in the disclaimer about weather (hot/cold) not being the only factor in consideration, because I can hear the westies (west-oriented people) grumbling at the east coast bias.  I know this east/west thing goes in spurts, but it seems to be all east coast, all the time around here.  Okay, I'm done complaining.
Title: Re:State Climates Report
Post by: stpeter on August 25, 2002, 03:59:33 pm
I posted the following message on the mailing list:

******

With all due respect to Jan and the time he put into this report, we're not running a country club here, we're trying to found a free society. Washington's army wasn't warm and comfy at Valley Forge. It seems to me that within reason the colder climates (and concomitant lower population densities, not to mention lack of attractiveness to your average busybody bureaucrat) would work better for us than states where comfort is so easy to come by. Climate may be one decision factor for some folks, but I see it as a personal preference and not a decision factor for the FSP per se. We need to be focused on the factors conducive to freedom, not comfort.

IMHO, of course.

Peter
Title: Re:State Climates Report
Post by: bakedchip on December 16, 2002, 03:27:27 pm

With all due respect to Jan and the time he put into this report, we're not running a country club here, we're trying to found a free society. Washington's army wasn't warm and comfy at Valley Forge. It seems to me that within reason the colder climates (and concomitant lower population densities, not to mention lack of attractiveness to your average busybody bureaucrat) would work better for us than states where comfort is so easy to come by. Climate may be one decision factor for some folks, but I see it as a personal preference and not a decision factor for the FSP per se. We need to be focused on the factors conducive to freedom, not comfort.

IMHO, of course.

Peter

As much as disregarding all climate concerns would be nice, it is not an option for everyone.  For those who have bad cases of asthma, or arthritis, or have suffered an injury, the cold and/or humidity can be an enormous burden.

- Chip Spangler
Title: Re:State Climates Report
Post by: Zxcv on December 16, 2002, 04:03:48 pm
Yeah, and some of us have wives, too. And some of those wives may not be cold-weather types. And some of us husbands may not quite be up to ordering wives to follow us wherever we may want to go. :o
Title: Re:State Climates Report
Post by: Mark on December 16, 2002, 04:04:02 pm
right now it's freezing cold here in central NY (similiar to VT, NH and Maine I would guess). It's hot and humid during the summer. Even Toronto, Canada had killer heat wave this past summer. Every state other than Delaware is pretty much the same weather wise in my opinion.



Delaware may have an early spring and mild fall but I would assume the mid atlantic weather gets mighty humid during the summer. And the population density and land market prices / taxes aint nothing to praise.
Title: Re:State Climates Report
Post by: freedomroad on December 16, 2002, 04:21:47 pm
Quote
Quote


As much as disregarding all climate concerns would be nice, it is not an option for everyone.  For those who have bad cases of asthma, or arthritis, or have suffered an injury, the cold and/or humidity can be an enormous burden.

- Chip Spangler


If humid weather is a problem then DE might need to be opted out.
Title: Re:State Climates Report
Post by: Zxcv on December 16, 2002, 05:03:26 pm
This climate report needs work.

First, Rehoboth Beach is not representative of Delaware. If Delaware were our state, most of us would be up around Wilmington - that is, if we wanted to get anything done! Using Rehoboth Beach is using a climate moderated by ocean air, a nice trick.

Second, the report is unfairly subjective. It is one thing to make the general observation that people like mild climates, it's another thing entirely to translate that into specifics or make judgements on that basis.

For example, Delaware has a winter climate similar to my home in Western Oregon. After living here for years, I am ready for a sunnier winter, even if it means a colder winter. Clouds and rain are oppressive after a while, and you can't get much outside work done while it is raining - not the case with a climate 10 degrees colder, but sunny.

Another example: some people, such as myself, do not like summer humidity. I'd much rather have the hot summer of Idaho since it is a dry summer, than a muggy mid-Atlantic climate. Humidity information is missing on these reports, making Delaware appear more tolerable than it really is. The information about "heating degree days" and "cooling degree days" also conveniently eliminates humidity information (although I'm not sure of that, otherwise why would DE have the greatest number for cooling degree days??) Your definition for it does not mention humidity, anyway.

Finally, some people love the change of seasons. Some like some snow on the ground in winter. You spend most of the time in winter inside the house anyway, so it hardly matters if one place is colder than the other.

The subjective nature of the report should be eliminated, by removing references like "worse" and "better" and replacing them with "colder", "warmer" and the like.

Humidity information needs to be included.

Wind information needs to be included.

Links to the original data (for each table) need to be included.

Just a general observation about weather: It's hard to beat Spring in the desert, with flowers all around and clear sky and moderate temperatures (during the day). It's hard to beat Autumn in the eastern deciduous forests. Summer is great along the coastlines where the ocean air moderates the temperature. Winter is great in the mountains where you can ski and have some fun in the sun. All the candidate states have their climatic good and bad points. Let's not let this issue be too high on our list of criteria for deciding our state.
Title: Re:State Climates Report
Post by: redbeard on December 16, 2002, 08:51:44 pm
As much as disregarding all climate concerns would be nice, it is not an option for everyone.  For those who have bad cases of asthma, or arthritis, or have suffered an injury, the cold and/or humidity can be an enormous burden.

- Chip Spangler

Quote
Yeah, and some of us have wives, too. And some of those wives may not be cold-weather types. And some of us husbands may not quite be up to ordering wives to follow us wherever we may want to go.

Jeez. Rugged individuals we ain't. Thank God Washington and the old school had a pair, eh?
Title: Re:State Climates Report
Post by: MouseBorg on December 16, 2002, 09:36:46 pm
Quote
author=redbeard
Jeez. Rugged individuals we ain't. Thank God Washington and the old school had a pair, eh?

Ahh, the age old question... What Price Liberty?

Of course, as time passes, the price always increases. Historically, the majority of people tend to wait till that price is life itself.

We have but a small space in time before the legislation passed since 911 (and the additional legislation yet to follow) begins to be fully enforced. Those who have thoroughly read the existing legislation understand the implications. Those who have not need to promptly do so.

If climate is still a serious issue for a majority, then that simply tells us that the Price of Liberty needs to increase a bit more. Be patient - it will. Perhaps a year or two, maybe even less, and climate will become a null factor when balanced against Liberty. Some already understand this aspect. Some don't... yet.

"Still if you will not fight for the right when you can easily win without bloodshed, if you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not so costly, you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance for survival. There may be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no chance of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves."
-- Sir Winston Churchill
Title: Re:State Climates Report
Post by: Mark on December 16, 2002, 11:42:34 pm
"Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed."



that being said I would enjoy wearing a coyboy hat and playing the part.


 ;D
Title: Re:State Climates Report
Post by: Mark on December 16, 2002, 11:45:14 pm
IN CONGRESS, July 4, 1776.

The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America,

When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.--Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world.

He has refused his Assent to Laws, the most wholesome and necessary for the public good.
He has forbidden his Governors to pass Laws of immediate and pressing importance, unless suspended in their operation till his Assent should be obtained; and when so suspended, he has utterly neglected to attend to them.
He has refused to pass other Laws for the accommodation of large districts of people, unless those people would relinquish the right of Representation in the Legislature, a right inestimable to them and formidable to tyrants only.
He has called together legislative bodies at places unusual, uncomfortable, and distant from the depository of their public Records, for the sole purpose of fatiguing them into compliance with his measures.
He has dissolved Representative Houses repeatedly, for opposing with manly firmness his invasions on the rights of the people.
He has refused for a long time, after such dissolutions, to cause others to be elected; whereby the Legislative powers, incapable of Annihilation, have returned to the People at large for their exercise; the State remaining in the mean time exposed to all the dangers of invasion from without, and convulsions within.
He has endeavoured to prevent the population of these States; for that purpose obstructing the Laws for Naturalization of Foreigners; refusing to pass others to encourage their migrations hither, and raising the conditions of new Appropriations of Lands.
He has obstructed the Administration of Justice, by refusing his Assent to Laws for establishing Judiciary powers.
He has made Judges dependent on his Will alone, for the tenure of their offices, and the amount and payment of their salaries.
He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harrass our people, and eat out their substance.
He has kept among us, in times of peace, Standing Armies without the Consent of our legislatures.
He has affected to render the Military independent of and superior to the Civil power.
He has combined with others to subject us to a jurisdiction foreign to our constitution, and unacknowledged by our laws; giving his Assent to their Acts of pretended Legislation:
For Quartering large bodies of armed troops among us:
For protecting them, by a mock Trial, from punishment for any Murders which they should commit on the Inhabitants of these States:
For cutting off our Trade with all parts of the world:
For imposing Taxes on us without our Consent:
For depriving us in many cases, of the benefits of Trial by Jury:
For transporting us beyond Seas to be tried for pretended offences
For abolishing the free System of English Laws in a neighbouring Province, establishing therein an Arbitrary government, and enlarging its Boundaries so as to render it at once an example and fit instrument for introducing the same absolute rule into these Colonies:
For taking away our Charters, abolishing our most valuable Laws, and altering fundamentally the Forms of our Governments:
For suspending our own Legislatures, and declaring themselves invested with power to legislate for us in all cases whatsoever.
He has abdicated Government here, by declaring us out of his Protection and waging War against us.
He has plundered our seas, ravaged our Coasts, burnt our towns, and destroyed the lives of our people.
He is at this time transporting large Armies of foreign Mercenaries to compleat the works of death, desolation and tyranny, already begun with circumstances of Cruelty & perfidy scarcely paralleled in the most barbarous ages, and totally unworthy the Head of a civilized nation.
He has constrained our fellow Citizens taken Captive on the high Seas to bear Arms against their Country, to become the executioners of their friends and Brethren, or to fall themselves by their Hands.
He has excited domestic insurrections amongst us, and has endeavoured to bring on the inhabitants of our frontiers, the merciless Indian Savages, whose known rule of warfare, is an undistinguished destruction of all ages, sexes and conditions.

In every stage of these Oppressions We have Petitioned for Redress in the most humble terms: Our repeated Petitions have been answered only by repeated injury. A Prince whose character is thus marked by every act which may define a Tyrant, is unfit to be the ruler of a free people.

Nor have We been wanting in attentions to our Brittish brethren. We have warned them from time to time of attempts by their legislature to extend an unwarrantable jurisdiction over us. We have reminded them of the circumstances of our emigration and settlement here. We have appealed to their native justice and magnanimity, and we have conjured them by the ties of our common kindred to disavow these usurpations, which, would inevitably interrupt our connections and correspondence. They too have been deaf to the voice of justice and of consanguinity. We must, therefore, acquiesce in the necessity, which denounces our Separation, and hold them, as we hold the rest of mankind, Enemies in War, in Peace Friends.

We, therefore, the Representatives of the united States of America, in General Congress, Assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the Name, and by Authority of the good People of these Colonies, solemnly publish and declare, That these United Colonies are, and of Right ought to be Free and Independent States; that they are Absolved from all Allegiance to the British Crown, and that all political connection between them and the State of Great Britain, is and ought to be totally dissolved; and that as Free and Independent States, they have full Power to levy War, conclude Peace, contract Alliances, establish Commerce, and to do all other Acts and Things which Independent States may of right do. And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The 56 signatures on the Declaration appear in the positions indicated:

Column 1
Georgia:
   Button Gwinnett
   Lyman Hall
   George Walton

Column 2
North Carolina:
   William Hooper
   Joseph Hewes
   John Penn
South Carolina:
   Edward Rutledge
   Thomas Heyward, Jr.
   Thomas Lynch, Jr.
   Arthur Middleton

Column 3
Massachusetts:
John Hancock
Maryland:
Samuel Chase
William Paca
Thomas Stone
Charles Carroll of Carrollton
Virginia:
George Wythe
Richard Henry Lee
Thomas Jefferson
Benjamin Harrison
Thomas Nelson, Jr.
Francis Lightfoot Lee
Carter Braxton

Column 4
Pennsylvania:
   Robert Morris
   Benjamin Rush
   Benjamin Franklin
   John Morton
   George Clymer
   James Smith
   George Taylor
   James Wilson
   George Ross
Delaware:
   Caesar Rodney
   George Read
   Thomas McKean

Column 5
New York:
   William Floyd
   Philip Livingston
   Francis Lewis
   Lewis Morris
New Jersey:
   Richard Stockton
   John Witherspoon
   Francis Hopkinson
   John Hart
   Abraham Clark

Column 6
New Hampshire:
   Josiah Bartlett
   William Whipple
Massachusetts:
   Samuel Adams
   John Adams
   Robert Treat Paine
   Elbridge Gerry
Rhode Island:
   Stephen Hopkins
   William Ellery
Connecticut:
   Roger Sherman
   Samuel Huntington
   William Williams
   Oliver Wolcott
New Hampshire:
   Matthew Thornton




 
 
 
Title: Re:State Climates Report
Post by: Mark on December 17, 2002, 12:12:49 am
hmmm, nothing about weather...
Title: Re:State Climates Report
Post by: MouseBorg on December 17, 2002, 12:24:59 am
Yes, the list of Oppressions in that Document reads pretty much the same now as it did back then. Odd coincidence. I often wonder how many people have actually noticed this?

It would appear that many underestimate the malignant nature of the current situation... which is somewhat disturbing, as it is more than passingly obvious.
Title: Re:State Climates Report
Post by: Mark on December 17, 2002, 12:37:53 am
yep.



*my agreement with MouseBorg isn't a vote for Wyoming.*
Title: Re:State Climates Report
Post by: Mark on December 17, 2002, 12:52:26 am
Mark,

The admin folks here can't move parts of threads, BUT YOU CAN !
Start a thread under General FSP or maybe under General Libertarian
then copy your stuff from here, paste it over there
then come back here and delete these non-climate posts.
That's what I do a lot when I catch myself writing posts that would be more easily found and read elsewhere -- where the thread title describes the contents.

When your done, then MouseBorg and I can delete out posts here.
and get back to climate stuff.


Joe, you are being a wise ass. I love wise asses.  ;D


You will notice that *my* thread of posts involves a climate theme. I began an "insuffurable" cost reference by quoting the Declaration of Independance. I guess I stepped over FSP protocol by c'n'p the whole thing.


You see Joe, as a Libertarian Socialist I know tyranny doesn't always come at the hands of people, but at nature itself. If we all find ourselves in a pit, we are just as unfree regardless of how we were put there.


As a progressive Libertarian Socialist, I see pits as pro-freedom. We can use them to store water and thermal energy. But I guess that would be off-topic for this thread, no?  ;)
Title: Climate and related issues
Post by: bakedchip on December 17, 2002, 10:23:46 am
There's been discussion about prospective states' job prospects and climate.  Some have said that they have to be in an urban area of some sort in order to find a job.  Others are planning to buy lots of land and have their nearest neighbor a mile or so away.  Some don't care what climate they move to.  Others are concerned about the cold, or the humidity.

I feel I should remind folks that we are trying to get 20,000 activists into a state.  Not 20,000 liberty-loving bums who sit around and debate but don't do anything.  Not 20,000 homesteaders who build their own house, garden, and isolate themselves from the rest of the population.

20,000 political activists.

This means that if conditions prevent people from being activists, we have a problem.  If an activist is unable to outreach to others because they can't breathe well due to the climate, we have a problem.  If a person can't work the crowd at the county fair because their knees (or another body part) will fail due to the cold, we have a problem.  If we can't put together a decent campaign because nobody can afford to donate money - because there are no jobs - we have a problem.

Not everyone here is a "rugged individualist" or an entrepreneur.  I know some will become ditch diggers or sweep floors or whatever is necessary, but some cannot.  And even if everyone did that, we'd have no money and wouldn't amount to anything anyway.

Yes, we're trying to obtain a free state - and we're trying to do that via the political process.  That means we have to engage in politics.  Not the "I'll spew any BS to get elected" type, but the knocking on doors, shaking babies and kissing hands, get involved in the community activist type.

 :)   We've got to be able to succeed at this.  We can't afford to screw this up.

- Chip Spangler
Title: Re:climate, jobs, and activism
Post by: PTboy on December 17, 2002, 01:11:27 pm
Hey Chip!

I agree ~~ 20K political activists! Amen!

PT Boy
Title: Re:State Climates Report
Post by: Zxcv on December 17, 2002, 01:26:18 pm
Quote
Quote:Yeah, and some of us have wives, too. And some of those wives may not be cold-weather types. And some of us husbands may not quite be up to ordering wives to follow us wherever we may want to go.


Jeez. Rugged individuals we ain't. Thank God Washington and the old school had a pair, eh?

Redbeard, it's a new age. For better or worse.

I'm a father, and I don't believe in breaking up my family for any reason. I knew I'd have to tone down my activist tendencies when we decided to have a child.

He won't be a child forever.

I agree with the general sentiment that weather should not matter at all. It doesn't, to me.
Title: Re:climate, jobs, and activism
Post by: varrin on December 17, 2002, 03:51:39 pm
Chip,

Ya hit the nail on the head.  Thanks.

V-

Title: Re:climate, jobs, and activism
Post by: Dave Mincin on December 17, 2002, 05:19:40 pm
Do you folks have any real idea what homesteading is about...Carving out a place to live from nature?   Homesteading is a lifes work no time for anything else, except family and your faith.  If we really want a freestate we must be perpared to press the flesh...knock on doors and devote much of our time to the effort....Then maybe, just maybe, our children will be fee to do as they chose without government interference.





Title: Re:climate, jobs, and activism
Post by: mtPete on December 17, 2002, 08:46:21 pm
On the other hand, what is more important to you: the weather/population or liberty?
Title: Weather-Related Flight Delays
Post by: Robert H. on December 18, 2002, 04:28:48 am
Here's an interesting map on weather-related flight delays across the continental 48 states:

http://www.news-miner.com/Stories/0,1413,113%257E7301%257E%257E%257Eflight%257E,00.html (http://www.news-miner.com/Stories/0,1413,113%257E7301%257E%257E%257Eflight%257E,00.html)
Title: Re:State Climates Report
Post by: Racer X on December 18, 2002, 04:43:00 am
That map only shows delays for that particular day, right?  I see you've been reading a Fairbanks, Alaska newspaper.  That 5 day forecast is looking a little chilly ;D

Racer X
Title: Re:State Climates Report
Post by: Robert H. on December 18, 2002, 06:02:50 am
That map only shows delays for that particular day, right?  I see you've been reading a Fairbanks, Alaska newspaper.  That 5 day forecast is looking a little chilly ;D

Racer X

Actually, it updates periodically, but I'm not certain at what intervals.  I know it was different when I first located it.

And yes, Fairbanks is a place that probably wouldn't see much FSP involvement due to those temperatures, which only get more colorful as winter progresses!   ;D  Not to mention the twenty + hours of darkness near the winter solstice.   :o  It's one of the best places in the world to view the Northern Lights though, and I'd probably visit for the novelty, but I doubt I'd be staying on very long!

I do read a couple of Alaskan newspapers rather regularly.  The Fairbanks News-Miner (http://www.news-miner.com) is one, as is the Anchorage Daily News (http://www.adn.com).  Click on either name for links to them.  The News-Miner has a neat Fairbanks real-time cam, but both of them provide an insight into life in a rather different place.  ADN runs a number of letters-to-the-editor, which are quite useful in trying to get a glimpse into the thoughts of current state residents.
Title: Re:climate, jobs, and activism
Post by: bakedchip on December 18, 2002, 10:22:06 am
On the other hand, what is more important to you: the weather/population or liberty?

Liberty, without a doubt.  But consider what we're doing ...

We are trying to peacefully gain political power in a state through the political process.  This means we're going to be campaigning - a lot.  We'll have people working at county fairs and other events, attending council meetings, going door to door talking to voters, gathering petition signatures, putting up signs, printing materials, speaking to the legislature, etc.  This requires hard work, time, and money.

To have time to be an activist, one cannot spend all of one's time on other activities:


If people are unable to find jobs, or have to work two jobs in order to raise enough money to live - how are we going to be able to raise money for campaigning?  The short answer is: we can't.  TV and radio and newspaper ads cost money.  Bumper stickers cost money.  Yard signs cost money.  Billboards cost money.  Gasoline to get around the state and campaign costs money.  Campaigns cost a lot of money.

Liberty is why we're involved in the FSP.  That's why we have to make sure that wherever we go, we will have the resources necessary to work for liberty.  If we don't, we'll fail.

- Chip Spangler
Title: Re:State Climates Report
Post by: Zxcv on December 18, 2002, 03:42:07 pm
Here are some wind maps of Idaho, Montana, and Wyoming.
http://www.windpowermaps.org/windmaps/states.asp#wyoming
Look at my favorite, Wyoming. I think I'm going to be ill. :-[

Well, you can always find a nice canyon to live in...

Note the non-linear wind scale; these maps are for production of wind power.

I don't know what's up with the .pdf immages, the Wyoming one was all blue. The jpgs have the detail.

Maybe other state maps can be found like these, with some poking around on the Internet.

Well, if we end up in Wyoming, I know where I'm getting my electrical power from! ::)
Title: Re:State Climates Report
Post by: Zxcv on December 18, 2002, 04:25:07 pm
More maps:
http://www.eren.doe.gov/windpoweringamerica/wind_resources.html

These are a bit hard to compare, because different color pallettes are used, different scales, and so forth. You have to look at them a little harder than at first glance.

Dakotas look pretty windy, too. At lease Wyoming has some quieter areas...
Title: Re:climate, jobs, and activism
Post by: Chuckster on December 18, 2002, 08:22:43 pm
I'm with RacerX on this one.  See no need to repeat your very well stated argument Racer but would like to point out that MY 40 acres in Orleans county VT aint all that big; roughly 1800X900 feet and driving down the (Dirt) road that connects the two villages I'll drive past six neighbors in seven miles.  OTOH if I don't go looking, I won't see any of them for days or even weeks. 3.5 miles to the General Store and I can get all the socializing and discussion of local issues I want.

One can play cowboy, even in Vermont (Famous for Morgan Horses) and my real estate agent there recently contact me, knowing that I am looking for more land, with an offer of 52.75 acres of woodland near Jay for $55K. I expect to buy my neighbors south pasture (about 40 acres) which adjoins my place on the North, to give me a total of 80 acres and put my house smack in the middle, 900 feet from the road and 900 feet from any property line (900 feet from the best trout stream in the Northeast Kingdom  ;))

Westerners all seem to be obsessed with being able to get in a car and drive at 90 mph for a couple of hours without passing a town and see nothing wrong with a 100+ mile commute to work in another state. That's what they mean when they talk of Freedom - no people around for miles and miles.  Personally I find this idea of isolation=freedom unacceptable.

IMHO Vermont offers the best combination of accessible towns, villages and Burlington (The only real city); employment opportunities with companies like IBM, and entrepreneurial opportunities in various sectors. It seems to me that Vermont has something for just about everyone EXCEPT extremely long commuting distances but if you insist, you can live in Troy and commute to Burlington on the Interstate (About 90 miles)

My point is that the Westerners can have land and privacy but may have to forgo being able to climb the hill and gaze over hundreds of square miles of nothing but open range.  Homesteaders can buy an old farm or part of one for the price of a new car and still be close enough to the village to interact with other FSPers and engage in political activism through the town meeting system. Those who need more conventional jobs can live in larger towns or Burlington and work for IBM or the Universities or in retail large and small.  Agribusiness is still a mainstay of the Vermont economy and there are certainly opportunities there.  People like me will be hiring help, starting small businesses etc.

Oh yeah; the socialism thing in Vermont is not all that popular among "Real Vermonters", at least in my experience. 8)
Title: Re:State Climates Report
Post by: Robert H. on December 19, 2002, 04:30:09 am
Here's what climate conditions are like in these candidate state cities (current evening temps) close to the winter solstice:

Alaska

Anchorage:  19°F, 91% humidity (tomorrow's hi/low:  24°/21°)
Fairbanks:  2°, 81% humidity (tomorrow's hi/low:  7°/1°)
Juneau:  30°, 100% humidity (tomorrow's hi/low:  31°/23°)
Kodiak:  21°, 61% humidity (tomorrow's hi/low:  37°/34°)

Delaware:

Wilmington:  29°, 86% humidity (tomorrow's hi/low:  52°/48°)
Dover:  28°, 100% humidity (tomorrow's hi/low:  50°/46°)

Idaho

Boise:  31°, 74% humidity (tomorrow's hi/low:  36°/27°)
Idaho Falls:  19°, 83% humidity (tomorrow's hi/low:  25°/13°)
Twin Falls:  22°, 78% humidity (tomorrow's hi/low:  35°/24°)

Maine

Caribou:  7°, 72% humidity (tomorrow's hi/low:  27°/22°)
Bangor:  15°, 65% humidity (tomorrow's hi/low:  37°/29°)
Portland:  19°, 62% humidity (tomorrow's hi/low:  41°/34°)

Montana

Great Falls:  22°, 66% humidity (tomorrow's hi/low:  32°/16°)
Butte:  10°, 81% humidity (tomorrow's hi/low:  24°/6°)
Billings:  28°, 43% humidity (tomorrow's hi/low:  35°/16°)

New Hampshire

Manchester:  15°, 80% humidity (tomorrow's hi/low:  42°/37°)
Concord:  9°, 85% humidity (tomorrow's hi/low:  40°/32°)
Berlin:  -2°, 79% humidity (tomorrow's hi/low:  40°/26°)

North Dakota

Fargo:  32°, 93% humidity (tomorrow's hi/low:  35°/18°)
Minot:  28°, 86% humidity (tomorrow's hi/low:  30°/20°)
Bismarck: 30°, 86% humidity (tomorrow's hi/low:  33°/20°)

South Dakota

Pierre:  36°, 67% humidity (tomorrow's hi/low:  40°/19°)
Rapid City:  34°, 44% humidity (tomorrow's hi/low:  43°/16°)

Vermont

Montpelier:  3°, 75% humidity (tomorrow's hi/low:  36°/31°)
Burlington:  13°, 77% humidity (tomorrow's hi/low:  38°/31°)

Wyoming

Cheyenne:  21°, 53% humidity (tomorrow's hi/low:  35°/15°)
Casper:  11°, 77% humidity (tomorrow's hi/low:  32°/14°)
Sheridan:  25°, 53% humidity (tomorrow's hi/low:  34°/13°)

Source:  The Weather Channel (http://www.weather.com)
Title: Re:State Climates Report
Post by: Robert H. on December 19, 2002, 04:50:20 am
Here are three links that can tell you just about anything you'd want to know about climate trends in the continental forty-eight states (complete with color maps):

NOAA (National Oceanic Atmospheric Administration):

http://lwf.ncdc.noaa.gov/oa/climate/research/2002/sep/nattemp.html (http://lwf.ncdc.noaa.gov/oa/climate/research/2002/sep/nattemp.html)

NASA:

http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/Newsroom/NasaNews/2002/200204088344.html (http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/Newsroom/NasaNews/2002/200204088344.html)

Another temperature zone map:

http://www.tytyga.com/zonemap.html (http://www.tytyga.com/zonemap.html)
Title: Re:climate, jobs, and activism
Post by: mtPete on December 20, 2002, 01:21:35 am
It's not that isolation=freedom necessarily equals freedom. Its just that where there are more people, they tend to like to take away your rights. Where there are more people, things are more crowded, and more expensive.

We just want to play cowboys? I am one, I don't play one.

"It's hard to knock on doors when everyone lives 40 acres apart."

Do you honestly believe that? Many of the people out west live in towns and cities just like everyone else in the nation. Those that do live in the country are miles apart, not 40 acres apart. But the folks that live in the country are the freedom loving type, you won't need to go door to door out there.

And contrary to popular belief most of us work within minutes of where we work. You don't have to look out of state or in big cities to find work. Out in the rural areas we usually don't commute very far. Long commutes are more found near larger cities where people work in the city but live out in the suburbs. Urban sprawl is practically unheard of out in the rural western states.

Whether we choose an Eastern state or a Western state, I don't care, liberty is more important than geography. But don't discount the West and we won't discount the east.
Title: Re:State Climates Report
Post by: mtPete on December 20, 2002, 01:48:35 am
By no means are Billings and Missoula (though they be two of the larger cities) very representative of Montana. Also, be careful of reading too much into this years weather. In MT for example, we havn't a really good snowy winter in better than 6 years. And we just finnished our 4th consecutive year of droubt.

Also remember 'normal' weather is just the average of the extremes. For example, my father tells the story of when he was growing up one year he went out and played in the dirt with his new toys after christmas. The next year there were snowdrifts over the top of the fenceposts. This year pretty much the whole of the Northern Great Plains is snowless, and its almost Christmas.


As much as disregarding all climate concerns would be nice, it is not an option for everyone.  For those who have bad cases of asthma, or arthritis, or have suffered an injury, the cold and/or humidity can be an enormous burden.

- Chip Spangler

You know, I keep hearing this argument. But there is a high percentage of elderly in the western states (the young'ins all move out) and they all do just fine in the winter. Besides, the fresh air will do ya good.
Title: Re:climate, jobs, and activism
Post by: Robert H. on December 20, 2002, 01:50:06 am
Mt. Pete,

Thank you for your observations here.  

Advocating a western state does not equal wanting to be 200 miles from your nearest neighbor, or building property inside of a moat and surrounding it with machine gun nests.  Advocating a western state does not equal wanting all FSP members to start raising chickens for a living or trading their condos in for teepee's.

From some of the posts in this forum, you'd think that all westerners would think the word "job" referred to a book of the Bible.

Those that can read, that is.   ;D  ::)
Title: Re:climate, jobs, and activism
Post by: TedApelt on December 20, 2002, 09:34:05 am
With its short distances, the best state by far for activism is Delaware.  From Dover, you can get to just about anywhere in the state in less than an hour.  Climate is better, too.

Wilimgton is also right on the edge of Philadelphia, meaning that people that work in Philly can live in DE (many probably do), and if DE was the FreeState we could recruit people there to help us out without needing to move - they would drive into DE then drive out.

Also, the election logistics are fantastic.  Just THREE COUNTIES!!!  Not too lopsided towards one political party, either.

I think that the FSP made a mistake.  From the very beginning, this should have been called "The Delaware Project", and the plan should have been to move to DE from the beginning.  It is that much of a better choice.
Title: Re:climate, jobs, and activism
Post by: Zxcv on December 20, 2002, 01:15:09 pm
Quote
Advocating a western state does not equal wanting to be 200 miles from your nearest neighbor, or building property inside of a moat and surrounding it with machine gun nests.
It doesn't? Dang!  ;)

Just to be honest about it, there are some difficulties with western states, in terms of access. I live in Oregon, and it's clear, for a statewide race, getting to voters in eastern Oregon is harder, and costs more money (because you have to rely on TV and other such media more than door-to-door) than it is in downtown Portland. And more time will be spent on the road.

That being said, if I were running for office on a platform of freedom, I'd sure rather do it in eastern Oregon than in Portland! It's the people, folks, the political climate that matters!

That's why I find this talk about Vermont somewhat unreal. The place has been taken over by Socialists, for Christ's sake! We'd have to expend tons of effort just to get back to "normal" there, let alone advance freedom. What do you think, the socialists who took the trouble to move there, are going to move out just because the FSP chooses Vermont? No, they aren't. They are going to be a powerful opponent that you will have to fight forever.

As to local races, I don't see that western states and rural areas are any more difficult than urban areas. If you're running for office in a town, the town is all you have to deal with.

A true climate of freedom requires wild areas. Here is something I posted over in the "New State Reports" thread:
----------------------------------
I guess one criteria that is not mentioned too much around here is a notion I picked up in Neil Smith's novel Pallas. That is, for freedom to happen, an essential ingredient is that there needs to be a place for people to escape to. I believe this is very important, and explains much of how this country became free even with such unimpressive material to start with as the Puritans. Hard to maintain a little dictatorship when people can simply pick up and walk away from it.

I think the loss of our frontier pretty much coincided with the beginning of the loss of our freedom, another verification of Smith's theory.

Perhaps this is one of my problems with Delaware, compared to a place like Wyoming. It is too small, people are too close, you can't get away from code enforcers and any other government agencies or from busybodies. In a place like Wyoming, people can get away, find a place that suits them. And when people do get together they tend to be friendly, because they don't see all that many of them - not the case in Delaware. I've gone back to Delaware and the DC area on occasion and I find the place a bit too rigid for my taste; people worry about such things as dressing up and so forth. I like being a bit more relaxed. You know, "Knock the horse shit off your shoes, come in and have a beer, and take a look at my new gun."

This is demonstrated by something I did recently. I have an old place in an out-of-the-way place in Oregon. I gutted the whole place and rebuilt it without a single permit. Illegal, yes, theoretically; but who's to complain? My neighbors didn't care - they probably do the same thing. If they even knew what I was doing. On the other hand we had a friend back in suburbia who put a gazebo in his little back yard, without a permit. The neighbor complained to the thugs and he had to take his gazebo down. A friggin' gazebo!
-------------------------------

People in western states often simply ignore bad laws. That's the mentality we want to work with; those are our people.
Title: Re:climate, jobs, and activism
Post by: Penfist on December 20, 2002, 02:17:06 pm
Quote
I guess one criteria that is not mentioned too much around here is a notion I picked up in Neil Smith's novel Pallas. That is, for freedom to happen, an essential ingredient is that there needs to be a place for people to escape to. I believe this is very important, and explains much of how this country became free even with such unimpressive material to start with as the Puritans. Hard to maintain a little dictatorship when people can simply pick up and walk away from it.

I think the loss of our frontier pretty much coincided with the beginning of the loss of our freedom, another verification of Smith's theory.

Perhaps this is one of my problems with Delaware, compared to a place like Wyoming. It is too small, people are too close, you can't get away from code enforcers and any other government agencies or from busybodies. In a place like Wyoming, people can get away, find a place that suits them. And when people do get together they tend to be friendly, because they don't see all that many of them - not the case in Delaware. I've gone back to Delaware and the DC area on occasion and I find the place a bit too rigid for my taste; people worry about such things as dressing up and so forth. I like being a bit more relaxed. You know, "Knock the horse shit off your shoes, come in and have a beer, and take a look at my new gun."

This is demonstrated by something I did recently. I have an old place in an out-of-the-way place in Oregon. I gutted the whole place and rebuilt it without a single permit. Illegal, yes, theoretically; but who's to complain? My neighbors didn't care - they probably do the same thing. If they even knew what I was doing. On the other hand we had a friend back in suburbia who put a gazebo in his little back yard, without a permit. The neighbor complained to the thugs and he had to take his gazebo down. A friggin' gazebo!
-------------------------------

People in western states often simply ignore bad laws. That's the mentality we want to work with; those are our people.

I'm about 98% with you here. Can I kick the horseshit off my shoes and have a look at your new gun now?
Title: Re:State Climates Report
Post by: varrin on December 20, 2002, 11:47:18 pm
From the look of those temperature reports about 3 messages up, I'm starting to like Deleware more and more...

V-

Title: Climate issues
Post by: freedomroad on January 30, 2003, 01:39:25 am
All of the Western FSP states are somewhat windy.  Wyoming has a reputation for being a windy state.  The truth is some parts of Wyoming are much more winding than America as a whole while others are not.  The following list shows wind speeds at 50 meters above the ground in various WY cities followed by wind speeds for other Western cities.

Wyoming wind categories:
1. 0-12 mph
Cities: Sheridan, Green River, Riverton, Worland, Lander, Jackson, Thermopolis
2. 12-14.5 mph
Cities: Cheyenne, Laramie, Rock Springs, Evanston, Cody, Buffalo, Torrington, New Castle, Pine Bluffs,
3. 14.5-17 mph
Cities: Casper, Gillette, Rawlins,

Other Western Cities:
1. 0-12 mph
Cities: Missoula, MT, Bozeman, MT, Helena, MT, Boise, ID, Lewiston, ID, Spokane, WA
2. 12-14.4 mph
Cities: Billings, MT, Great Falls, MT, Sioux Falls, SD, Pierre, SD, Fargo, ND, Pocatello, ID, Idaho Falls, ID, Ontario, OR
3. 14.4-17 mph
Cities: Rapid City, SD, Aberdeen, SD, Grand Forks,
ND, Bismarck, ND

Overall Western states ranked, least windy to most windy, for large cities:
1. ID
2. MT
3. WY
4. ND
5. SD

Note 1: Most of SD and ND are windy.  However, the most windy parts are the eastern parts.  The western 60% of MT and southeastern part of WY are the most windy parts of those states.  The southeastern part of ID is somewhat windy while most of the rest of the state is not.

Note 2: Comparing the Western and Eastern States is very difficult because the wind speeds in the regions are measured somewhat differently.  However, generally the Eastern FSP states are less windy than the Western states.  Extreme northern New England is somewhat windy with small parts being very windy.  The Eastern coast (from North Carolina to Maine) is somewhat windy.  The coast of Alaska is somewhat windy (the islands are very windy) and AK's interior is mostly calm.

Note 3:  It give you an example, Cheyenne is slightly more windy than Boston.

Source: http://www.windpowermaps.org/windmaps/states.asp#wyoming and related links
Title: Re:Wind in the FSP states, states ranked by wind speeds
Post by: Zxcv on January 30, 2003, 06:38:07 pm
Quote
Overall Western states ranked, least windy to most windy, for large cities:
1. ID
2. MT
3. ND
4. WY
5. SD

Keith, what is the methodology for this ranking? Is there a link?
Title: Re:Wind in the FSP states, states ranked by wind speeds
Post by: freedomroad on January 30, 2003, 11:44:10 pm
Quote
Overall Western states ranked, least windy to most windy, for large cities:
1. ID
2. MT
3. WY
4. ND
5. SD

Keith, what is the methodology for this ranking? Is there a link?

I ranked the Western states from least windy to most windy in large cities.  See my source for link(s).
Title: Re:State Climates Report
Post by: Robert H. on February 06, 2003, 03:32:36 am
In the "for what it's worth" category...

Here are some interesting maps that I came across in regard to weather and other climate-related hazards in the continental U.S.  Specifically, these maps deal with hurricanes, tornadoes, earthquakes, flooding, landslides, and volcanoes.

http://www.usgs.gov/themes/hazards.html (http://www.usgs.gov/themes/hazards.html)

There is also an animated map that superimposes all of these various hazard areas on top of one another:

http://www.usgs.gov/themes/animationmap.html (http://www.usgs.gov/themes/animationmap.html)

And here's another page where you can map just about any climate factor you wish (snowfall, lightening, pollen, etc).  You can do this by state and region, or you can look at all of the continental states together:

http://hurricane.accuweather.com/adcbin/public/sitemap.asp (http://hurricane.accuweather.com/adcbin/public/sitemap.asp)
Title: Re:State Climates Report
Post by: DadELK68 on February 06, 2003, 05:51:02 pm
The most climate information would be the average perceived temperatures (I don't recall the technical term) over the last 'x' years - the measured temperatures adjusted for humidity in the heat and wind-chill in the cold. Can anyone find this information in a comparative format?
Title: Coasts, water supply, humidity -- again and again we read this...
Post by: Solitar on February 07, 2003, 04:02:07 pm
Some want beaches and coasts but worry about hurricanes.
Some want lots of water and worry about the semi-arid west.
Some want rain but worry about ice and snow.
Some want a decent gardens but worry about humidity and bugs.

Water, water, everywhere...

For some of us out in the dry west, our collection of supplies, stores, and caches would be subject to a lot of damage, rot, rust, mildew, etc. out in the humid east and especially along the salt-air coasts.

For the enlightenment of the dry county folks...
How do you folks along the coasts deal with the humidity?

Copius applications of gun oil and grease?
Packing food in drums and plastic tubs, dehumidified, deoxygenated, and sealed?
Packing valuable papers, photos, etc. in metal tins?
Packing clothes with mothballs?
Rustproof undercoats for the cars and trucks?  Frequent waxing?
What other precautions?
Title: Re:Coasts, water supply, humidity -- again and again we read this...
Post by: varrin on February 07, 2003, 04:29:26 pm
Packing valuable papers, photos, etc. in metal tins?

Silly, who keeps paper these days...  My camera's digital. Just gotta keep the hard drive outta the rain. ;)

V-

Title: Re:Coasts, water supply, humidity -- again and again we read this...
Post by: Kelton on February 07, 2003, 05:43:51 pm
I'm expecting that somehow we are going to come to some conclusions that will aid us in deciding upon which state, through this discussion?

I may offer some advice based on experience from having lived in a very dry and warm climate, (near Las Vegas,NV); in a temperate desert climate, (Salt Lake City,UT); a humid coastal city(Corpus Christi, TX), and now I live somewhat inland from the coast but still frequently experience San Francisco's weather move inland:

For emergencies like hurricanes, you just get a plan in- place ahead of time.  You have a hopeful destination inland you plan on getting to if a warning comes and a back-up contingency plan if you can't leave home.  This brings up the fact that you should be prepared for emergencies anyways, no matter where you live: I keep a 72-hour kit handy in both the car and at home, with some water, a Katadyn filter, flares, lights, a few snacks, just some basic things in a backpack.  I also keep a year's supply of dry goods & some ammo on hand in case things get real ugly (it's actually a tradition in my church to be a little bit survivalist-oriented, minus the Soldier of Fortune gear, however)


As to daily living in humid climates:

Everything Joe recommends plus. . .
I recommend Scrub Free(tm) mildew remover once-a-week in showers and tubs.
Replacing single - pane windows with double pane or better.
Never leave wet clothing anywhere.
Leave your bathroom fan on for a few hours after bathing or showering.
Use a good unscented body- powder after showering and underwear that wicks- away moisture.
Using an appropriate fungicide in lawns and gardens during wet months.
Run the air conditioner at least 30 secs. once a month, even during the winter.
A few seconds before turning off your car while running the air conditioner, turn the a/c off, and the heater vent on to dry out those vents.


For dry climates:
Find a good body lotion and use it regularly, with sunscreen for all those sunny days that dry climates have.
Find a good lip balm and use it regularly.
When working outside when it is hot, remember that you will dry out very quickly, drink a lot of water!
Use micro- irrigation (drip) systems and you can actually afford to keep even a fruit orchard off culinary water.
Forget about having Kentucky Bluegrass, opt for a variety used at a local golf course, usually some hybridized Bermuda, limit the amount of lawn you want, take advantage of shade- trees.
Consider using an old-fashioned clothes- line (if you and your neighbors can handle the unpretentious practicality)  A traditional electric clothes dryer is one of the most expensive appliances you can use, and your clothes will actually dry faster on a hot summer day.    
hmmm. . . I'm sure I can think of other things. . .
Title: Re:Coasts, water supply, humidity -- again and again we read this...
Post by: Kelton on February 07, 2003, 05:50:12 pm
Varrin,
Would now be a good time to mention that Idaho has the greatest variety of climates among all of our candidate states?


http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/cbecs/climate_zones.html (http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/cbecs/climate_zones.html)
Title: Re:Coasts, water supply, humidity -- again and again we read this...
Post by: vermass on February 07, 2003, 09:59:02 pm
  Joe, while what you say would be true in SC (I've lived there). In NH or VT it isn't that humid. I mean it doesn't effect you metal containers. In SC my pictures would stick together. I've never had that happen in MA and MA is more humid than NH or VT. I can't say anything about DE and I will not move there, it's the only place I won't move to. In most of NH salt air isn't a problem only right on the coast. I think that it's going to be harder for east-coasters to adjust to the dry west than it will be for westerners to adjust
to the northeast. If FL was one of the choices what you say would be true. NH and VT are not really humid. I spent a summer in TX one year it allways seemed to be over 100F when I got home to MA in september I found the humidity bothered me but NH and VT are not as humid and the mountains even less so (allthough you westerners might call them hills) My guns don't rust. I don't give them special treatment. As for vehicles well......OK, it's VERY difficult to keep the salt spray from the roads in the winter from eating your vehicle. They don't salt the roads in AK (or at least they didn't when I used to live there). I hope this answers some of your questions.
Title: Re:Coasts, water supply, humidity -- again and again we read this...
Post by: Robert H. on February 08, 2003, 05:23:03 am
As to daily living in humid climates:

Everything Joe recommends plus. . .

Replacing single - pane windows with double pane or better.

I lived in Pensacola, Florida for three and a half years and there were days there when the humidity made it seem difficult to breathe.  Exitus' advice on replacing those window panes hit home immediately.  Mildew around our windows was a constant battle.
Title: Re:Coasts, water supply, humidity -- again and again we read this...
Post by: stepdave on February 10, 2003, 12:10:09 pm
Some want beaches and coasts but worry about hurricanes.
Some want lots of water and worry about the semi-arid west.
Some want rain but worry about ice and snow.
Some want a decent gardens but worry about humidity and bugs.

Water, water, everywhere...

For some of us out in the dry west, our collection of supplies, stores, and caches would be subject to a lot of damage, rot, rust, mildew, etc. out in the humid east and especially along the salt-air coasts.

For the enlightenment of the dry county folks...
How do you folks along the coasts deal with the humidity?

Copius applications of gun oil and grease?
Packing food in drums and plastic tubs, dehumidified, deoxygenated, and sealed?
Packing valuable papers, photos, etc. in metal tins?
Packing clothes with mothballs?
Rustproof undercoats for the cars and trucks?  Frequent waxing?
What other precautions?
Title: Re:Coasts, water supply, humidity -- again and again we read this...
Post by: Zxcv on February 11, 2003, 08:07:54 pm
Quote
Consider using an old-fashioned clothes- line (if you and your neighbors can handle the unpretentious practicality)

I was stationed in 29 Palms, California in the service. I used to get the load of clothes out of the washer and start hanging on the line. By the time I got done hanging I went back to the front of the line and started taking clothes down again!

That place was dry... :o
Title: Re:State Climates Report
Post by: stepdave on February 12, 2003, 02:18:51 pm
When talking about climates people tend to dismiss the thought of Alaska being a prime candidate for the best state.  Truth is, Alaska has 7 different climate regions and the weather here is milder than most of the states being looked at.

Contrary to popular belief, we don't all live in igloos and ride around in dog sleds.

Alaskans never worry about such things as thunder storms, tornados, droughts, or major flooding.
Title: Re:State Climates Report
Post by: freedomroad on February 12, 2003, 04:19:11 pm
Additional info:

Average January Temperatures for selected Wyoming cities:        
Cheyenne, WY                        26.4 F      
Cody, WY                               24.1 F          
Casper, WY                  22.3 F
Yoder, WY                              27.0 F       
Pine Bluffs, WY                      26.8 F      
Wheatland, WY                       28.2 F      
Sheridan, WY                          20.0 F      
Rock Springs, WY                  20.1 F      
Laramie, WY                           20.2 F      
Yellowstone Park, WY           19.1 F      
      
Average January Temperature for other selected cities:      
Grand Forks, ND                    5.3 F   
Sioux Falls, SD       14.0 F
Anchorage, AK       15.8 F
Burlington, VT       18.0 F
Augusta, ME       19.0 F
Berlin, NH                                 14.6 F      
Concord, NH       18.9 F
Keene, NH                                20.9 F      
Glasgow, MT       10.8 F
Great Falls, MT                         21.2 F      
Miles City, MT                          16.0 F      
Butte, MT                                16.7 F      
Helena, MT                             19.8 F      
Idaho Falls, ID                        20.5 F      
Coeur d Alene, ID                   28.6 F      
Pocatello, ID       24.4 F
Wilmington, DE       30.4 F
Source: ftp://ftp.wcc.nrcs.usda.gov/support/climate/taps/
Title: Re:West Nebraska climate in Southeast Wyoming
Post by: freedomroad on March 17, 2003, 04:02:33 pm
Very good info, Joe.  I wrote a report on Torrington which follows.



Torrington, WY              Goshen County seat

Torrington is a wonderful small town. The Torrington area is mostly farmland; however, Torrington is within just a few miles of the mountains. It has all of the common social clubs such as the Rotary Club, Kiwanis Club, Lions Club, Moose Club, AARP, Boy Scouts, and the American Legion. Torrington has a museum, golf course, swimming pool, skate park, and more than a half dozen baseball fields. A gym, bowling alley, movie theater, and tennis courts are all found in Torrington. Torrington has one of almost every type of church and is home to Eastern Wyoming (Community) College with 1,400 full and part-time students. Torrington has 19 restaurants including fast food such as: Arby's, Taco John's, Subway, Pizza Hut, Hardee's, and Burger King. Several specialty restaurants, such as the LaFamilia Prado Mexican Food, the Peking Garden, Chuckwagon Bakery and Café, Java Jar, and a catering restaurant are all found in Torrington.  Both a small Sears and a JCPenny are located in Torrington, and Scottsbluff, NE has regular Sears and JCPenny along with Wal-Mart Supercenter and Target.

The city has around 6,000 people. Torrington is on the Wyoming/Nebraska border and its people enjoy the benefits of both states.  Mitchell, NE (with 2,000 people) is only 21 miles from Torrington. The Scottsbluff/Gering, NE MSA with 27,000 people is only 31 miles from Torrington, WY. Scottsbluff has small branches of several colleges, a zoo, and a medical center the serves a 90,000+ people region.  Because of Torrington’s proximity to Scottsbluff's large medical center, it would make a great home for medical paraprofessionals and professionals wanting to live in a friendly town.  Torrington has both low cost of living and low housing costs.  The average single wide mobile home for 2002 was only $306 (including lot and water).  The average two bedroom apartment was only $320.  A 2 to 3 bedroom house, for the same period, rented for $427 per month.  

Torrington shines in the weather department.  Torrington is part of Wyoming's warmest region, known as the Banana Belt region of Wyoming.   The region makes up much of Platte and Goshen Counties.  Wyoming's Banana Belt region is warmer than most of MT, SD, ND, VT, NH, ME, and AK.  This area has less humid summers than the northeastern states, making it feel cooler (in the summer) than most of the country. Torrington gets less than 30 inches of snow and 14.5 inches of rain per year.  This compares very favorably to the northeastern FSP states.  NH, for example, gets between 55 and 90 inches of snow and between 35 and 45 inches of rain per year.  Torrington is less windy than SD, ND, much of WY, and about equal to the average wind speeds of MT.  These factors make Torrington the ideal town for people that do not like a great deal of snow and want a dry, somewhat warm climate.  

Torrington is geographically surrounded by several attractions. The North Platte River and 2 streams pass through Torrington. The Hawk Springs rec. area with boating and canoeing is around 30 minutes south of Torrington. 20 minutes west of Torrington is the Fort Laramie National Historic Site and to the east is the Scotts Bluff National Monument.  The beautiful Laramie Mountains are very close to Torrington.  The huge Glendo State Park and Reservoir is less than 1 hour from Torrington.  The Glendo Park offers 300 camp sites and 500 picnic areas.  An abundant supply of walleyes, white and black crappie, and even some trout and catfish are found in the lake waters.  Casper’s ski slope area is less than a 3 hour winter drive west of Torrington.  Some of the ski trials, near Casper, are night light and Casper offers 80 miles of snowmobile trails. The Black Hills of WY/SD, with five national parks, ski resorts, several casinos, and the world’s most famous motorcycle rally, is 3 to 4 hours north of Torrington.

Torrington is 33 miles from Guernsey (1,100), 56 miles from Lusk, WY (1,500), 61 miles from Wheatland, WY (3,600), 83 miles from Cheyenne, 131 miles from Laramie, 143 miles from Casper, and 229 miles from Denver.  Being just over 1 1/2 hours from Cheyenne, Torrington is part of Cheyenne's extended MSA of 150,000+ people.  Retired military that currently use a military hospital do not need to worry about losing access to free medical facilities.  The Warren Air Force Base, adjacent to Cheyenne has a military hospital. Torrington is a great central location for a person wanting to be within a 2 1/2 hour drive of Wyoming's 3 largest cities and less than 4 hours from Denver.  

Links:
Torrington City http://www.city-of-torrington.org/
Eastern Wyoming College http://ewc.wy.edu/visitor/
Scottsbluff City http://www.ci.scottsbluff.ne.us/
Scottsbluff/Gering Chamber of Commerce http://www.scottsbluffgering.net/
Fort Laramie National Historic Site http://www.nps.gov/fola/
Glendo Reservoir http://wyoparks.state.wy.us/glendo1.htm
Casper Ski Area http://www.ski-guide.com/overview.cfm/wy05.htm
Black Hills http://www.blackhillsentertainment.com/
Title: Re:West Nebraska climate in Southeast Wyoming
Post by: freedomroad on March 17, 2003, 04:06:57 pm
Southeastern Wyoming has warmer winters than all of ND, SD, AK, VT, ME, NH, ME, MT, and most of ID.  Or at least, all of my almost 30 hours of climate and weather related research show this.  See the Case for Alaska thread for a detailed listing on winter temps in various cities in all 10 states, to compare for yourself.
http://forum.freestateproject.org/index.php?board=5;action=display;threadid=1456;start=0
Title: Re:West Nebraska climate in Southeast Wyoming
Post by: Zxcv on March 17, 2003, 05:47:28 pm
Little (for Wyoming) Goshen County, for which I believe Torrington is the county seat, is 2225 square miles, somewhat larger than the land area of the state of Delaware (1955 sq mi). There are 12,389 people in the county, compared to 796,165 in Delaware, as of 2001.

It's probably cheaper and easier running for the top office in this county, than in any of the Delaware counties...   ;)
Title: Re:State Climates Report
Post by: Zxcv on March 17, 2003, 06:47:57 pm
Time to go back to the drawing board, Joe and Keith. This is not an honest list. Yoder is a town of 169, Chugwater of 192, both in the banana belt of Wyoming. Makes it look like a little skulduggery, loading up the list with ringers like that.  ::)

A much better approach would be to get the termperatures and snow (and maybe wind if its available, and even summer humidity) of the N largest population cities in each state. Maybe even do a spreadsheet of it, and weigh temperatures according to population. That would be a lot closer to the distribution the FSPers would face in the state.

But then, that would be a lot of work, too! So maybe we should just stick with what Jason did, for Jan temperatures. It should be good enough. Our glass-eaters shouldn't mind a temp difference of a few degrees, one way or another...   ;)

Title: Re:State Climates Report
Post by: exitus on March 17, 2003, 08:16:08 pm
I just spoke with Varrin, who has been busily working on a climate report of his own.  It looks quite thorough and objective, using the largest cities, averages, etc.    Varrin? Is that report ready for release yet?  I know you were still double-checking a few cities. . .

____________
Also remember, in our largest cities, there is the "urban-heat-island" effect, which tends to raise the average temperature a degree or two in big cities.  Also, don't be decieved by lack of snowfall.  The coldest places tend to snow the least.  Also remember that the temperature year-round is important, in other words, the growing season.  Some places may have the warmest January, but if the snow starts falling in August, big deal.
Title: Re:State Climates Report
Post by: varrin on March 17, 2003, 08:56:25 pm
exitus:

Nope, it's not quite ready yet.  If I'm going to release it, I want it to be right.  

I do agree with zxcv's suggestion about city size and believe that's a fair analysis.  I have some source material ready for mine, but not all of it.  Clearly posting xyz pop 100 weather over abc pop 5000 wx when abc pop 5000 wx is better isn't quite fair (case in point, a town near boise with annual snowfall less than 10" per year which is left off Joe's list).  I'll finish it up and get it out as soon as I have a chance.  It'll go along with some other important thoughts I've been meaning to work on too.

V-

Title: Re:State Climates Report
Post by: Zxcv on March 17, 2003, 09:44:07 pm
Quote
Also remember, in our largest cities, there is the "urban-heat-island" effect, which tends to raise the average temperature a degree or two in big cities.
As far as I'm concerned, that's legitimate. Those people feel that temperature; it doesn't matter that they themselves are a cause of a small part of it.

It makes me nervous that people might be basing their choice on temperature. Yeah, I can see eliminating a city like Fairbanks (as a place to move), and maybe even a state like ND, based on the temperature; but beyond that it is really being silly to base a choice on termperature. Who cares if Portland, ME is 20.9 while Casper, WY is 22.3?
Title: Re:State Climates Report
Post by: freedomroad on April 14, 2003, 12:06:15 am
By now, we all know that Jan Helfeld wrote a climate report on the 10 states.  I decided that we needed a lot more details and so I made a much more in-depth report.  Both reports are good, but they look at different things.

Mine looks at:
Sunshine
Humidity
Winter Temperature
Snowfall
Wind

I tried to cover cities of all sizes from all over the 10 states.

http://www.freestateproject.org/climate3.htm
Title: State Allergy Rankings Request
Post by: crunja on April 17, 2003, 02:12:36 am


   With my nose running and eyes watering here in my home state of NC, I was wondering if anyone could put together a ranking of the FSP states for their allergies and allergens.  It sure would be nice to get away from this stuff every spring.....

  .....Aaaa, Aaaaa, Aaachooo!!!
Title: Re:State Allergy Rankings Request
Post by: Kelton Baker on April 17, 2003, 10:40:53 am
Whatever data is presented, it is not going to be particularly encouraging.  

North Dakota is probably going to be your best bet simply because of its harsh and long winters and relatively dry climate in most of the state.

Face it, you are never going to escape allergens.  I highly recommend prescription strength medicines and consulting with a medical doctor, an allergist or ear-nose-throat specialist.  Find- out what it is that most affects you.  If it is mold and fungus related, stay away from humid areas.  If it is pollen, find out what types.

Another  thing to look for is to avoid living in cities or towns that are basins, where inversions keep all the pollutants, natural and otherwise, in the air.

On the bright side, when you first move to a new locality, a place with new allergens, your body hasn't had much of a chance to develop antigens against them.  You may actually find your first season mostly allergy free.  I have found this true of everywhere I have moved.  You can keep this low-antigen reaction in your body for longer by taking drugs like Singulair and corticosteroids.

Some more advice:
Keep your floors clean.
Try to live in a place that is either free of carpet, or with newer carpet, at least have your carpets cleaned frequently (once a month even).  Carpet is bad for people with allergies.  I have read some pretty credible studies actually attempting to link the increased prevalence of carpeted floors in homes with the rise of asthma in children.

Much less effective, but helpful, are having air purifiers.  Make sure to install good filters on your heating/air-conditioning sytems and change them regularly.  For some people, having evaporative coolers helps them, as they tend to "wash" the air of pollen and dander, for others the fungus these can grow only aggravate their conditions.

 

crunja, since this is something in your interest to know more about, why don't you take the time and research the states and let us know?


8
Title: Re:West Nebraska climate in Southeast Wyoming
Post by: Hank on May 29, 2003, 01:54:29 pm
If Wyoming became the Free State, other pieces of nearby states may try to annex to Wyoming.
Scottsbluff may again try to get Lincoln to let it join with Cheyenne instead. (http://www.theindependent.com/Archive/073098/stories/073098/Opi_ayoub30.html)
Quote
Meanwhile, our friends in the Panhandle, already feeling like the state's poor relation, are eying Wyoming with affection because of the Cowboy State's low taxes,

Could then Rapid City split from the big city of Sioux Falls for the same reasons?

All the Black Hills in one big Free State!
Title: Re:State Climates Report
Post by: RayeHawk on June 11, 2003, 03:01:08 pm
Additional info:

Average January Temperatures for selected Wyoming cities:  Â Â Â Â Â Â 
Cheyenne, WY                        26.4 F      
Cody, WY                               24.1 F    Â Â Â Â Â Â 
Casper, WY                  22.3 F
Yoder, WY                              27.0 F       
Pine Bluffs, WY                      26.8 F      
Wheatland, WY                       28.2 F      
Sheridan, WY                          20.0 F      
Rock Springs, WY                  20.1 F      
Laramie, WY                           20.2 F      
Yellowstone Park, WY           19.1 F      
      
Average January Temperature for other selected cities:      
Grand Forks, ND                    5.3 F   
Sioux Falls, SD       14.0 F
Anchorage, AK       15.8 F
Burlington, VT       18.0 F
Augusta, ME       19.0 F
Berlin, NH                                 14.6 F      
Concord, NH       18.9 F
Keene, NH                                20.9 F      
Glasgow, MT       10.8 F
Great Falls, MT                         21.2 F      
Miles City, MT                          16.0 F      
Butte, MT                                16.7 F      
Helena, MT                             19.8 F      
Idaho Falls, ID                        20.5 F      
Coeur d Alene, ID                   28.6 F      
Pocatello, ID       24.4 F
Wilmington, DE       30.4 F
Source: ftp://ftp.wcc.nrcs.usda.gov/support/climate/taps/


Of course, these numbers will have no validity when the super volcano that's currently doming in Yellowstone erupts . . . look for infernally hot temps, blistering winds, lava raining down, falling ash, etc.    ;)

http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/planetearth/volcano_monitor_010807-1.html

http://amos.indiana.edu/library/scripts/volcanoes.html
Title: Re:State Climates Report
Post by: freedomroad on June 12, 2003, 01:42:06 am
Of course, these numbers will have no validity when the super volcano that's currently doming in Yellowstone erupts . . . look for infernally hot temps, blistering winds, lava raining down, falling ash, etc.    ;)

http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/planetearth/volcano_monitor_010807-1.html

http://amos.indiana.edu/library/scripts/volcanoes.html

To quote the first link, “In the July 2001 issue of the journal Earth and Planetary Science Letters, University of Wisconsin geologists Ilya Bindeman and John Valley report new evidence indicating ‘a high probability of a future catastrophic eruption sometime within the next million years, and possibly within the next hundred thousand years.’ ”

To quote the second link, “One of the world's largest, the super volcano beneath Yellowstone last erupted over 600,000 years ago, covering a 3000 square mile area with volcanic ash. In other words, ash blanketed over half the United States. Recent measurements indicate that over the past century the earth above the Yellowstone magma chamber has risen almost nineteen inches--telling evidence of building pressure. Since the Yellowstone super volcano erupts approximately every 600,000 years, the next eruption may already be overdue.”

So, sometime with in the next Million years, for sure, but maybe within 100,000 years...  heck, maybe today…1/2 of America will be covered in ash.  How cool.  Well, what do you want me to do?  

If it was just a small eruption much more damage would be done to the population centers of MT (Bozeman, Billings, Butte, Helena) and Idaho (Idaho Falls, Pocatello, Twin Falls) than would be done to Wyoming.

So, if you actually take this as a threat, you should really view it as a negative for MT and ID first, Wyoming second, and ND / SD third.  

Here is a map on volcanoes,  
http://www.usgs.gov/themes/map2.html
It shows Idaho is the worst state but does not include Alaska, which is likely the worst state.

However, I am not concerned.  Tornados are a more immediate threat.  There is more of a danger of Tornados in Delaware than any of the other states.  South Dakota, North Dakota and New Hampshire are also somewhat dangerous as far as tornados.  On the other hand, Alaska is the best(least damage from) state for Tornados.  

What about hurricanes?  Surely, they are worst in Delaware.  However, sometimes a little bit is felt in Maine, New Hampshire, and even Vermont (maybe).
http://www.usgs.gov/themes/map5.html

For earthquakes it looks like the worst states in order from worst to best are:
MT, ID, WY, ME, VT, all of the others are clear (likely AK is the worst but it is not show) http://www.usgs.gov/themes/map1.html  

Landslides?  From worst to best:
VT, NH, ID, WY, ME, SD, MT, DE and ND (AK is not shown)
http://www.usgs.gov/themes/map3.html

Flooding?  ND and SD are worst.  ID and MT have some though, even VT seems to flood. http://www.usgs.gov/themes/map4.html

If you look at the big pictures, Wyoming seems to be the best,
http://www.usgs.gov/themes/animationmap.html
Title: Re:State Climates Report
Post by: RacecaR on June 26, 2003, 12:06:32 am
I'd be more interested to see average temperatures than average precipitation.  My guess is Idaho will be the warmest and even that is cold to me.
Title: Re:State Climates Report
Post by: freedomroad on June 26, 2003, 02:57:53 am
I'd be more interested to see average temperatures than average precipitation.  My guess is Idaho will be the warmest and even that is cold to me.

There is a ton of info on this thread on in the 3 different state climate reports.  In the Winter, DE is the warmest, followed by ID and WY.  

What are you looking for that was not on this thread or one of the 3 reports?  I'll try to help you find it.
Title: Re:Coasts, water supply, humidity -- again and again we read this...
Post by: Hank on August 05, 2003, 10:01:59 pm
Quote
In NH or VT it isn't that humid.
Yeah, right.
Compared to Louisiana,
Missouri isn't that humid either.
When people here note that eastern Dakotas are more humid than western Dakotas, then New England is darn humid.
At least Vermont is inland and may not be as saturated as the coast.

Title: Weather Data
Post by: matt621 on August 21, 2003, 04:07:01 am
For those concerned about the climate of the candidate states, I have the compiled the following:

http://www.freedombyfaith.com/FSP/WeatherCharts/

In particular, see

http://www.freedombyfaith.com/FSP/WeatherCharts/WeatherbyCity.gif

I think you'll see that among some of the top choices, the weather is pretty similiar. You get about 3-4 months of "good" weather, half a year of "decent" weather and half... not so decent. But my point is, weather really isn't all that different amoung the front runners that it should effect your choice very much. I hope you'll choose based on the climate of the people, not thermometer.

:)

Hope to be neighbors with all of you some day!
Title: Re:Weather Data
Post by: freedomroad on August 22, 2003, 01:38:15 am
Thanks for the post Matt.  There are three climate reports on the FSP website.  Here is the most indepth one, http://freestateproject.org/climate3.htm .  The report covers a ton of stuff and compares the states and their cities.  It shows that there is some difference.  For example, Idaho has much better weather than either Vermont or Maine.  At the same time, DE has much better weather than Montana.
Title: Re:Weather Data
Post by: matt621 on August 22, 2003, 03:38:53 am
Hi, and thanks.  One thing tho.... I don't mean to cause any trouble, but I didn't use data from smaller cities because they don't really have enough to make it statistically accurate. For example, using Wy which is one state I've researched a lot, on the average snowfall chart, it shows Rock Springs Wy as 44 inches per year, but at Green River it shows only 25 inches per year. They are only 20 miles apart. Also,  Casper, Kaycee & Yonder are w/in a 60 mile radius, but they vary from 39", 45" to 82". Dubios, Pavillion, Thermopolis, & Riverton are all w/in 70 mile radius, and they vary from 18" to 22" to 28 to 29 to 43". It could be that there are other factors, (elevation) or they might really be that different, but when I see such numbers I tend to discount them. Not that anyone is doing anything wrong, just that there doesn't see to be enough data to be accurate. So I ignored cities that didn't have enough data to be representative.

Still I very much appreciate you pointing out the page. It is helpful.

Title: Re:Weather Data
Post by: freedomroad on August 22, 2003, 03:52:05 am
Hi, and thanks.  One thing tho.... I don't mean to cause any trouble, but I didn't use data from smaller cities because they don't really have enough to make it statistically accurate. For example, using Wy which is one state I've researched a lot, on the average snowfall chart, it shows Rock Springs Wy as 44 inches per year, but at Green River it shows only 25 inches per year. They are only 20 miles apart. Also,  Casper, Kaycee & Yonder are w/in a 60 mile radius, but they vary from 39", 45" to 82". Dubios, Pavillion, Thermopolis, & Riverton are all w/in 70 mile radius, and they vary from 18" to 22" to 28 to 29 to 43". It could be that there are other factors, (elevation) or they might really be that different, but when I see such numbers I tend to discount them. Not that anyone is doing anything wrong, just that there doesn't see to be enough data to be accurate. So I ignored cities that didn't have enough data to be representative.

Still I very much appreciate you pointing out the page. It is helpful.



The records go back sometime and are government records so...  However, some parts of Wyoming are in the mountains (or right next to them) and some are not and that has a lot to do with snow.  The same is true for other states.
Title: Re:State Climates Report
Post by: Hank on August 31, 2003, 10:23:59 pm
The critics about the small towns of southeast Wyoming don't understand. Those small towns are in the crosshairs of development. They'll be Cheyenne suburbs before the ranchers realize what happened.  Let's hope those suburbs are populated by Porcupines rather than Coloradans.
Title: Re:Wind in the FSP states, states ranked by wind speeds
Post by: Hank on September 08, 2003, 07:30:05 pm
I think the wind in New Hampshire beats every other state.
 ;)
Especially when they get those hurricanes and primaries.
 ;)