Free State Project Forum

FSP -- General Discussion => Prospective Participants => Topic started by: Argentum on September 06, 2014, 02:13:14 pm

Title: Why do I not hear or see any major criticism of Free Keene and Ian Bernard?
Post by: Argentum on September 06, 2014, 02:13:14 pm
The main reason I can never join the FSP has to do with FK.  And it's not really about what the Free Keeners do.  It's true that I find their childish and sometimes crude and offense antics like chalking, public nudity, pretending to drink alcohol at town meetings, etc. to be counterproductive.  My main objection is the lack of criticism and even outright denunciation by other members of the NH liberty community.  Maybe it's  because I don't live in NH, but the only major criticism I've seen is by Dave Ridley in this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPgqn3BXWHQ&list=UUE_3GcvLERTeS9XFZPtRsIA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPgqn3BXWHQ&list=UUE_3GcvLERTeS9XFZPtRsIA).  In particular, their leader, Ian Bernard, has some objectionable, and non-libertarian, views about the age of consent.  But I see and hear nothing but tolerance from other libertarians.  It reminds me of black political movements from the past.  It seems like solidarity trumps basic morals.  Malcolm X was a great exception to this.  Because he was an honest man, he called out his own mentor, Elijah Muhammad, for immoral behavior.  If FTL is going to be the "face" of the NH liberty movement, then it is doomed to failure.
Title: Re: Why do I not hear or see any major criticism of Free Keene and Ian Bernard?
Post by: elkingrey on September 06, 2014, 02:16:06 pm
The FSP probably isn't for you.
Title: Re: Why do I not hear or see any major criticism of Free Keene and Ian Bernard?
Post by: Argentum on September 06, 2014, 02:25:42 pm
The FSP probably isn't for you.

Could you expand on that thought?  Are you a member?  Do you support FK?
Title: Re: Why do I not hear or see any major criticism of Free Keene and Ian Bernard?
Post by: elkingrey on September 06, 2014, 02:43:09 pm
I'm an early mover. I don't live anywhere near Keene or subscribe to Free Keene's tactics. But you may be a little too uptight for the FSP if you're more concerned about badmouthing their tactics than you are the most murderous, rapingest, thievingest, kidnappingest organization on the planet... the State.
Title: Re: Why do I not hear or see any major criticism of Free Keene and Ian Bernard?
Post by: Argentum on September 06, 2014, 04:41:02 pm
I'm an early mover. I don't live anywhere near Keene or subscribe to Free Keene's tactics. But you may be a little too uptight for the FSP if you're more concerned about badmouthing their tactics than you are the most murderous, rapingest, thievingest, kidnappingest organization on the planet... the State.

Those two things aren't mutually exclusive.  I've been an anarchist since about 1992.  Influence by Rothbard, Szasz, Means, Chodorov and many others.  If I think certain tactics are counterproductive to the goal of achieving liberty, isn't it incumbent on me to say so?
Title: Re: Why do I not hear or see any major criticism of Free Keene and Ian Bernard?
Post by: elkingrey on September 06, 2014, 05:14:50 pm
The thing is, if "we" ever achieve a "free society" there are going to be naked people in "public" and people chalking, etc.

You're not going to get to a "free society" by obeying all of the norms and customs of statists and then one day, voilla, those norms are gone and people are living "free."

You have to be the change you want to see in the world. And if that means statists are going to be offended, so be it.
Title: Re: Why do I not hear or see any major criticism of Free Keene and Ian Bernard?
Post by: Eric Freerock on September 06, 2014, 05:20:12 pm
No one is forcing you to do that type of activism.  People come to NH and do the activism that they want to.  You can criticize other people's tactics all you want, you also don't have to hang out with them.  When was the last time you were in a group of 1,000 people and all 1,000 people like each other, every last one of them? Never.  FSP is just a bus to get liberty activists to NH.  Once you're here do what you feel you need to do.
Title: Re: Why do I not hear or see any major criticism of Free Keene and Ian Bernard?
Post by: Argentum on September 06, 2014, 05:52:51 pm
The thing is, if "we" ever achieve a "free society" there are going to be naked people in "public" and people chalking, etc.

You're not going to get to a "free society" by obeying all of the norms and customs of statists and then one day, voilla, those norms are gone and people are living "free."

You have to be the change you want to see in the world. And if that means statists are going to be offended, so be it.


If there is ever a free society, there will be no public.  There will only be private property.  Have you noticed that much of the FK silliness takes place on "public property"?  A private property society will be more restrictive in my opinion.  It seems like the Free Keeners are doing things on public property that wouldn't be tolerated on private property.  Of course, it makes them look rebellious and trendy for "breaking the rules". 

I also disagree that all of these norms and customs are the handiwork of statists.  I believe that many cultural norms and customs are the outgrowth of the market.  Public nudity isn't frowned upon because some statist is trying to keep us down.  Of course, if you characterize everything as political, then you are going to have that view.

By all means, if you have to, you are going to offend statists.  But you should be offended them on their political views.  Not on their non-political culture and customs. 
Title: Re: Why do I not hear or see any major criticism of Free Keene and Ian Bernard?
Post by: Argentum on September 06, 2014, 05:56:29 pm
No one is forcing you to do that type of activism.  People come to NH and do the activism that they want to.  You can criticize other people's tactics all you want, you also don't have to hang out with them.  When was the last time you were in a group of 1,000 people and all 1,000 people like each other, every last one of them? Never.  FSP is just a bus to get liberty activists to NH.  Once you're here do what you feel you need to do.

I agree and fully understand your point.  However, I think that if some people are a detriment to the liberty movement, either because they are turning off more people than they are turning on to the movement, or because they are doing things that are anti-liberty, they must be criticized. 
Title: Re: Why do I not hear or see any major criticism of Free Keene and Ian Bernard?
Post by: freedomroad on September 06, 2014, 09:33:33 pm
public nudity

Never happened. Topless women happened a few times. As far as I recall, not a single free Keene blogger did that. It's mostly famous for a person that lived in Manchester at the time. Though, you might also know about it from someone from the Concord area or a native that was born 30 minutes from Keene.

Quote
pretending to drink alcohol at town meetings
This happened what, once or twice?

Quote
My main objection is the lack of criticism and even outright denunciation by other members of the NH liberty community.
I have asked FreeKeene to shut down. I've publicly said things would be better off without Free Keene.
 
Quote
Ian Bernard 
His name is Ian Freeman. You are correct in that he does own FreeKeene.com

Quote
It seems like solidarity trumps basic morals.
What has Ian done recently that most would consider so bad that he should be jailed for?
Title: Re: Why do I not hear or see any major criticism of Free Keene and Ian Bernard?
Post by: Auspicious Aspect on September 07, 2014, 12:13:56 am
The main reason I can never join the FSP has to do with FK.  And it's not really about what the Free Keeners do.  It's true that I find their childish and sometimes crude and offense antics like chalking, public nudity, pretending to drink alcohol at town meetings, etc. to be counterproductive.  My main objection is the lack of criticism and even outright denunciation by other members of the NH liberty community.  Maybe it's  because I don't live in NH, but the only major criticism I've seen is by Dave Ridley in this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPgqn3BXWHQ&list=UUE_3GcvLERTeS9XFZPtRsIA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPgqn3BXWHQ&list=UUE_3GcvLERTeS9XFZPtRsIA).  In particular, their leader, Ian Bernard, has some objectionable, and non-libertarian, views about the age of consent.  But I see and hear nothing but tolerance from other libertarians.  It reminds me of black political movements from the past.  It seems like solidarity trumps basic morals.  Malcolm X was a great exception to this.  Because he was an honest man, he called out his own mentor, Elijah Muhammad, for immoral behavior.  If FTL is going to be the "face" of the NH liberty movement, then it is doomed to failure.

You seem confused; this is the FSP forum, not the Freekeene forum or the FTL forum. You should probably direct your complaints to the people actually involved in whatever activities you find objectionable.
Title: Re: Why do I not hear or see any major criticism of Free Keene and Ian Bernard?
Post by: Argentum on September 07, 2014, 08:06:20 am
The main reason I can never join the FSP has to do with FK.  And it's not really about what the Free Keeners do.  It's true that I find their childish and sometimes crude and offense antics like chalking, public nudity, pretending to drink alcohol at town meetings, etc. to be counterproductive.  My main objection is the lack of criticism and even outright denunciation by other members of the NH liberty community.  Maybe it's  because I don't live in NH, but the only major criticism I've seen is by Dave Ridley in this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPgqn3BXWHQ&list=UUE_3GcvLERTeS9XFZPtRsIA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPgqn3BXWHQ&list=UUE_3GcvLERTeS9XFZPtRsIA).  In particular, their leader, Ian Bernard, has some objectionable, and non-libertarian, views about the age of consent.  But I see and hear nothing but tolerance from other libertarians.  It reminds me of black political movements from the past.  It seems like solidarity trumps basic morals.  Malcolm X was a great exception to this.  Because he was an honest man, he called out his own mentor, Elijah Muhammad, for immoral behavior.  If FTL is going to be the "face" of the NH liberty movement, then it is doomed to failure.

You seem confused; this is the FSP forum, not the Freekeene forum or the FTL forum. You should probably direct your complaints to the people actually involved in whatever activities you find objectionable.

Are the aforementioned people and organizations not associated with the FSP?  If you read my original post, my objections aren't so much with FK or FTL, but with the lack of criticism of them by other libertarians.  I'm not in NH so I don't have the pulse of the liberty movement there.  I know there are non-libertarians who hate and are disgusted by FK.  But the Ridley video I posted was the only major criticism I've seen.  As Dave said in the video, they are so strident, so shrill. I would add self-righteous and condescending.
Title: Re: Why do I not hear or see any major criticism of Free Keene and Ian Bernard?
Post by: dalebert on September 07, 2014, 08:31:45 am
You seem confused; this is the FSP forum, not the Freekeene forum or the FTL forum. You should probably direct your complaints to the people actually involved in whatever activities you find objectionable.

They've received quite a lot of criticism for their tactics and lack of concern for public relations from other free-staters, myself included. I've tried to make sure it was constructive and tactful. Mark himself, Ian's closest cohort, has tried. Some have been far less tactful in their criticism than us. Denis Goddard comes to mind. We've all mostly exhausted ourselves trying to convince them to change. You're welcome to try. They are unresponsive to criticism whether it's tactful and constructive or otherwise. Scream at them 'til you're hoarse if you want. You'll eventually get exhausted as well and they will continue to do activism the way they think is effective.
Title: Re: Why do I not hear or see any major criticism of Free Keene and Ian Bernard?
Post by: Argentum on September 07, 2014, 10:54:10 am
Thanks Dalebert,

Like I said, I'm not in NH so I don't know what's going on on the ground.  I'm sure the FSP forum is just a slice of the opinions that are out there.  But for non-Free Staters, this seems to be a major website for information. Can you recommend others?
Title: Re: Why do I not hear or see any major criticism of Free Keene and Ian Bernard?
Post by: MaineShark on September 07, 2014, 12:24:27 pm
In particular, their leader, Ian Bernard, has some objectionable, and non-libertarian, views about the age of consent.

Pretty serious charge.  Care to back that up?

All I've ever heard from him is that there is no such thing as an age of consent, which is the correct libertarian position.  No libertarian (and especially not someone like yourself who claims to be an anarchist) could possibly support a single, State-mandated age of consent for all individuals.

Sex absent consent is rape, regardless of whether that consent is lacking due to direct force, chemical incapacitation, lack of maturity, or whatever other reason might prevent it.  There's no single age at which all individuals gain the maturity to consent to sex.  Fifteen years and three-hundred-sixty-four days, and sex is a crime, but sixteen years and zero days, it is not?  There's nothing even vaguely libertarian about such nonsense.  Some individuals may be able to consent earlier than that.  Some might not even be able to consent at seventeen or eighteen years, or more.

The libertarian position is that for a charge of rape to stick, it must be proved that there was not actual consent.  Lack of consent (for any possible reason) is an element of the crime that must be proven by the accuser.  In cases where lack of maturity actually prevents consent, there will be zero problem convincing an arbitrator, jury, or whatever that there was no consent.

Any State-mandated single age for anything is anti-libertarian.  It is evil both in terms of false convictions of individuals who have not actually harmed anyone, and in lending formal authorization to acts which, objectively-speaking, were violations of someone's rights.

So, do you have evidence of him supporting any sort of anti-libertarian position on "age of consent," like (for example) that there is such a thing?

If there is ever a free society, there will be no public.  There will only be private property.

Technically true, but that does not mean that there will not be areas open to the public, and preserved for that purpose, by those who own those areas.

I also disagree that all of these norms and customs are the handiwork of statists.  I believe that many cultural norms and customs are the outgrowth of the market.  Public nudity isn't frowned upon because some statist is trying to keep us down.

Actually, yes, it is.  Public nudity was common, and did not destroy society, until the Puritans pushed their nonsense by political means.

On the western bank of the Connecticut River (ie, in Vermont), I can walk around bare naked all I want, and the world does not end.  Take one step into New Hampshire, and that becomes illegal.  Are you claiming that moving a matter of a few feet means that I'm somehow in an entirely-different culture with entirely-different norms and customs?  Nope, the only difference is political.
Title: Re: Why do I not hear or see any major criticism of Free Keene and Ian Bernard?
Post by: dalebert on September 07, 2014, 04:11:58 pm
There wasn't actually any nudity, as someone pointed out. There was toplessness which is not even nudity by NH law. In fact, a policeman learned about this that day. It was awkward. It's also not about nudity so much as about treating genders the same with all the same rights.
Title: Re: Why do I not hear or see any major criticism of Free Keene and Ian Bernard?
Post by: freedomroad on September 08, 2014, 12:02:52 am
Are the aforementioned people and organizations not associated with the FSP?  If you read my original post, my objections aren't so much with FK or FTL, but with the lack of criticism of them by other libertarians.  I'm not in NH so I don't have the pulse of the liberty movement there.  I know there are non-libertarians who hate and are disgusted by FK.  But the Ridley video I posted was the only major criticism I've seen.  As Dave said in the video, they are so strident, so shrill. I would add self-righteous and condescending.

I think the most famous person associated with toplessness in Keene is associated with the FSP, but not Free Keene. She has never live in Keene. The 2nd, 3rd and 4th most famous women associated with toplessness in Keene are not associated with the FSP or Free Keene.
Title: Re: Why do I not hear or see any major criticism of Free Keene and Ian Bernard?
Post by: Auspicious Aspect on September 08, 2014, 04:49:04 am
The main reason I can never join the FSP has to do with FK.  And it's not really about what the Free Keeners do.  It's true that I find their childish and sometimes crude and offense antics like chalking, public nudity, pretending to drink alcohol at town meetings, etc. to be counterproductive.  My main objection is the lack of criticism and even outright denunciation by other members of the NH liberty community.  Maybe it's  because I don't live in NH, but the only major criticism I've seen is by Dave Ridley in this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPgqn3BXWHQ&list=UUE_3GcvLERTeS9XFZPtRsIA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPgqn3BXWHQ&list=UUE_3GcvLERTeS9XFZPtRsIA).  In particular, their leader, Ian Bernard, has some objectionable, and non-libertarian, views about the age of consent.  But I see and hear nothing but tolerance from other libertarians.  It reminds me of black political movements from the past.  It seems like solidarity trumps basic morals.  Malcolm X was a great exception to this.  Because he was an honest man, he called out his own mentor, Elijah Muhammad, for immoral behavior.  If FTL is going to be the "face" of the NH liberty movement, then it is doomed to failure.

You seem confused; this is the FSP forum, not the Freekeene forum or the FTL forum. You should probably direct your complaints to the people actually involved in whatever activities you find objectionable.

Are the aforementioned people and organizations not associated with the FSP?  If you read my original post, my objections aren't so much with FK or FTL, but with the lack of criticism of them by other libertarians.  I'm not in NH so I don't have the pulse of the liberty movement there.  I know there are non-libertarians who hate and are disgusted by FK.  But the Ridley video I posted was the only major criticism I've seen.  As Dave said in the video, they are so strident, so shrill. I would add self-righteous and condescending.

No, there is no association between the organizations. People may or may not associate with each other at any given moment, but there are no organizational relationships.

The simple answer to your question is that you "do not hear or see any major criticism..." because you haven't bothered to put yourself in a position to do so. If you aren't around Keene or privy to conversations held between Keeniacs and other folks, how can you possibly know the level of criticism they may or may not receive from libertarians, or anyone else?

Bear in mind that there are people who "hate and are disgusted by" all sorts of things. That doesn't mean that their positions have any value.

So, again, if you have some specific concerns, you should raise them with the appropriate people. If you are too busy or lazy and would prefer that other people do your work for you, feel free to make an offer of employment. Alternatively, you could pay someone to investigate and keep track of any local criticisms leveled at FK and/or the people involved, and send you periodic reports. 
Title: Re: Why do I not hear or see any major criticism of Free Keene and Ian Bernard?
Post by: Argentum on September 08, 2014, 06:17:21 am
Auspicious,

Two things worth mentioning. Firstly, this is the prospective participants sub forum.  As a potential joiner (although now the potential is close to zero), I was making an inquiry and voicing a concern over my reservations about my joining of the FSP.  Why would I address my concerns to FK?    Secondly, I did qualify my criticism/inquiry, in at least one response, that I am not well informed due to the fact that I am not in NH.  I am relying on this forum, the Ridley Report and FK for my information.  I am not privy to the scuttlebutt of the liberty movement.
Title: Re: Why do I not hear or see any major criticism of Free Keene and Ian Bernard?
Post by: dalebert on September 08, 2014, 08:34:37 am
It was actually not that hard to follow conversations people were having with the Keeniacs online for a while. Like I said, those conversations were fairly heated at once time but have long since died down when it became apparent that Keeniacs are unresponsive to criticism, constructive or otherwise. They were being criticized on many forums (I think this one too but I'm going from memory so not sure), from YouTube videos, blogs, from callers into Ian's show, etc.
Title: Re: Why do I not hear or see any major criticism of Free Keene and Ian Bernard?
Post by: Auspicious Aspect on September 08, 2014, 12:17:16 pm
Auspicious,

Two things worth mentioning. Firstly, this is the prospective participants sub forum.  As a potential joiner (although now the potential is close to zero), I was making an inquiry and voicing a concern over my reservations about my joining of the FSP.  Why would I address my concerns to FK?    Secondly, I did qualify my criticism/inquiry, in at least one response, that I am not well informed due to the fact that I am not in NH.  I am relying on this forum, the Ridley Report and FK for my information.  I am not privy to the scuttlebutt of the liberty movement.

Sure, this is the prospective participants sub forum, but that doesn't describe you. You have made that clear in more than one thread. You actually go out of your way to start new threads just so you can state that you aren't going to participate. That is the classic description of a troll. You are just here to stir up rancor, breed divisiveness, and generally try to throw sand into the works.

The reason that I suggest that you address questions about FK to FK, or questions about FTL to FTL, is that both of those organizations have their own forums, neither of which is this forum. This place is for prospective FSP participants, not for critics of unrelated groups to whine about their personal agendas.
Title: Re: Why do I not hear or see any major criticism of Free Keene and Ian Bernard?
Post by: JasonPSorens on September 08, 2014, 03:43:21 pm
I've criticized FK from time to time, and received some flak in return for it. But generally, it's just not worth the energy to try to tear other activists down and create drama. When you get to NH, you are probably best served just trying to be a good neighbor and make a positive case for the kinds of things that you are doing. It is easy to ignore what happens in Keene if you try. Don't let a tiny minority of Free Staters define you. The best answer to Free Keene is to out-compete them.
Title: Re: Why do I not hear or see any major criticism of Free Keene and Ian Bernard?
Post by: politicalGRAFFITI on September 08, 2014, 09:01:35 pm
Can't lump everyone together...

Keeniac James Cleaveland

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=VraI0aJCeRU&feature=youtu.be
Title: Re: Why do I not hear or see any major criticism of Free Keene and Ian Bernard?
Post by: lildog on September 09, 2014, 08:57:58 am
However, I think that if some people are a detriment to the liberty movement, either because they are turning off more people than they are turning on to the movement, or because they are doing things that are anti-liberty, they must be criticized.

I have made this same point a few times.

Pro government people in NH do use the extreme examples as a way to attack entire groups.  It doesn't matter that there are very good people involved in the FSP who have accomplished quite a bit, the pro government groups will bring up the most extreme cases and try to lump anyone even remotely associated with the group with those extremes.

This isn't exclusive to the FSP.  They are doing the same to the Tea party groups and anyone else who dares oppose expanding government.
Title: Re: Why do I not hear or see any major criticism of Free Keene and Ian Bernard?
Post by: MaineShark on September 11, 2014, 07:34:21 am
Pro government people in NH do use the extreme examples as a way to attack entire groups.  It doesn't matter that there are very good people involved in the FSP who have accomplished quite a bit, the pro government groups will bring up the most extreme cases and try to lump anyone even remotely associated with the group with those extremes.

This isn't exclusive to the FSP.  They are doing the same to the Tea party groups and anyone else who dares oppose expanding government.

And they'll do that, regardless.  They will take any example and make it "extreme" by their rhetoric, if that's what serves their purpose.  No matter how mild your behavior, if that behavior opposes their goals and it serves their purposes to do so, they will paint you as an extremist.
Title: Re: Why do I not hear or see any major criticism of Free Keene and Ian Bernard?
Post by: dalebert on September 11, 2014, 09:16:32 am
I have made this same point a few times.

Pro government people in NH do use the extreme examples as a way to attack entire groups.  It doesn't matter that there are very good people involved in the FSP who have accomplished quite a bit, the pro government groups will bring up the most extreme cases and try to lump anyone even remotely associated with the group with those extremes.

This is a common tactic and it's very frustrating that it happens. Stressing about this will drive you nuts though. Trying to control everyone else's activism is exhausting and ultimately futile. I think we just have to try to do a better job of expressing our own messages and fight misleading speech with better speech instead of trying to stop all the behavior of the attention-getting types.

As I said, many of us tried for quite a while. It didn't work. Accept they're going to do what they're going to do and just do our best on our own plans.
Title: Re: Why do I not hear or see any major criticism of Free Keene and Ian Bernard?
Post by: apugh75 on September 11, 2014, 12:23:04 pm
I've criticized FK from time to time, and received some flak in return for it. But generally, it's just not worth the energy to try to tear other activists down and create drama. When you get to NH, you are probably best served just trying to be a good neighbor and make a positive case for the kinds of things that you are doing. It is easy to ignore what happens in Keene if you try. Don't let a tiny minority of Free Staters define you. The best answer to Free Keene is to out-compete them.

I think that should be emphasised.  The Free Keene people are only a handful the liberty activists in New Hampshire.
Title: Re: Why do I not hear or see any major criticism of Free Keene and Ian Bernard?
Post by: FTL_Ian on September 11, 2014, 08:20:16 pm
Hey Argentum,

I see you ignored Maineshark's thoughtful post about age of consent.

Rather than just vaguely accusing me of having some sort of outrageous view, why don't you just get specific?

Title: Re: Why do I not hear or see any major criticism of Free Keene and Ian Bernard?
Post by: FTL_Ian on September 11, 2014, 08:34:32 pm
Also, Keene activists have been criticized for years in various places (usually by people shit-talking our activism behind our backs).  Not all of it is done quietly, though.  Perhaps you missed the critique of me and Free Keene that actually appeared on the Free Keene blog?

Here it is from former blogger Will May (he quit - I didn't demote him):
http://freekeene.com/2012/03/21/peaceful-devolution/

Keene activism is the subject of much debate and derision, because we make an impact, and so therefore people form opinions about it, good and bad.
Title: Re: Why do I not hear or see any major criticism of Free Keene and Ian Bernard?
Post by: FTL_Ian on September 11, 2014, 09:31:23 pm
I'm an early mover. I don't live anywhere near Keene or subscribe to Free Keene's tactics. But you may be a little too uptight for the FSP if you're more concerned about badmouthing their tactics than you are the most murderous, rapingest, thievingest, kidnappingest organization on the planet... the State.

Also, can liberty people at least stop talking about Free Keene as though it has "tactics"?  Free Keene is a blog that reports on as much activism as we can from political to civ dis.  If there's something you don't like, then critique away, but don't kill the messenger.

Free Keene reports on stuff happening in Manchester.  Is that also Free Keene activism?  This makes no sense.
Title: Re: Why do I not hear or see any major criticism of Free Keene and Ian Bernard?
Post by: FTL_Ian on September 11, 2014, 09:53:44 pm
By all means, if you have to, you are going to offend statists.  But you should be offended them on their political views.  Not on their non-political culture and customs. 

Some of the activism here is about challenging dumb, antiquated, biased culture and customs. 

Yes, that makes people angry.  That's their problem.   ::)
Title: Re: Why do I not hear or see any major criticism of Free Keene and Ian Bernard?
Post by: FTL_Ian on September 11, 2014, 09:58:07 pm
You seem confused; this is the FSP forum, not the Freekeene forum or the FTL forum. You should probably direct your complaints to the people actually involved in whatever activities you find objectionable.

They've received quite a lot of criticism for their tactics and lack of concern for public relations from other free-staters, myself included. I've tried to make sure it was constructive and tactful. Mark himself, Ian's closest cohort, has tried. Some have been far less tactful in their criticism than us. Denis Goddard comes to mind. We've all mostly exhausted ourselves trying to convince them to change. You're welcome to try. They are unresponsive to criticism whether it's tactful and constructive or otherwise. Scream at them 'til you're hoarse if you want. You'll eventually get exhausted as well and they will continue to do activism the way they think is effective.


Aw, please, Dale.  Activists here have definitely changed tactics after receiving feedback.  Obviously not all feedback is valuable though.  For me, feedback is increasingly less valuable the more disconnected the critic is from me.

For instance, feedback from Dale is more valuable than feedback from some anonymous forum troll.  Feedback from an activist like Dave Ridley, who has activist cred, is more valuable than feedback from some newbie with zero hours logged in the streets.
Title: Re: Why do I not hear or see any major criticism of Free Keene and Ian Bernard?
Post by: FTL_Ian on September 11, 2014, 10:01:48 pm
I've criticized FK from time to time, and received some flak in return for it. But generally, it's just not worth the energy to try to tear other activists down and create drama. When you get to NH, you are probably best served just trying to be a good neighbor and make a positive case for the kinds of things that you are doing. It is easy to ignore what happens in Keene if you try. Don't let a tiny minority of Free Staters define you. The best answer to Free Keene is to out-compete them.

This is the best comment on the thread.  Thanks Jason.

It's a real shame no one can out-compete Free Keene for blog coverage of the liberty movement.  Looks like Shire Liberty News is finally giving us a run for our money - glad to see it.   
Title: Re: Why do I not hear or see any major criticism of Free Keene and Ian Bernard?
Post by: Argentum on September 12, 2014, 05:39:07 pm
 There's no single age at which all individuals gain the maturity to consent to sex.  
True. But there are plenty of ages I, and any other normal person, can name where all individuals of that age cannot consent.


Besides, supporting certain laws in our current State-dominated society does not make one any less libertarian.  The State isn't going anywhere too soon.  I support laws against murder.  The violators of these laws are apprehended by police paid for with tax-dollars,  prosecuted by people paid for with  tax-dollars in courts presided over and staffed by people paid for with tax-dollars. If found guilty, they are send to prisons paid for with tax dollars guarded by people  paid for with tax dollars.
Title: Re: Why do I not hear or see any major criticism of Free Keene and Ian Bernard?
Post by: Argentum on September 12, 2014, 05:41:48 pm
By all means, if you have to, you are going to offend statists.  But you should be offended them on their political views.  Not on their non-political culture and customs. 

Some of the activism here is about challenging dumb, antiquated, biased culture and customs. 

Yes, that makes people angry.  That's their problem.   ::)
That's fine.  But don't, and I'm not saying you have, characterize it as libertarian activism.  Libertarianism is not about criticizing and challenging purely social customs.
Title: Re: Why do I not hear or see any major criticism of Free Keene and Ian Bernard?
Post by: Argentum on September 12, 2014, 05:43:28 pm
Hey Argentum,

I see you ignored Maineshark's thoughtful post about age of consent.

Rather than just vaguely accusing me of having some sort of outrageous view, why don't you just get specific?



Was the video posted by the Stop Free Keene people (who are pretty statist) a mischaracterization of your position? Was it unfairly edited?
Title: Re: Why do I not hear or see any major criticism of Free Keene and Ian Bernard?
Post by: Argentum on September 12, 2014, 05:46:10 pm
I've criticized FK from time to time, and received some flak in return for it. But generally, it's just not worth the energy to try to tear other activists down and create drama. When you get to NH, you are probably best served just trying to be a good neighbor and make a positive case for the kinds of things that you are doing. It is easy to ignore what happens in Keene if you try. Don't let a tiny minority of Free Staters define you. The best answer to Free Keene is to out-compete them.

I think that should be emphasised.  The Free Keene people are only a handful the liberty activists in New Hampshire.

Where then are they getting their financial support?  The fact that at least some of them can make a living out of being an activist tells me that they at least have the tacit support of a good chunk of the NH liberty community.
Title: Re: Why do I not hear or see any major criticism of Free Keene and Ian Bernard?
Post by: Argentum on September 12, 2014, 05:51:27 pm
I have made this same point a few times.

Pro government people in NH do use the extreme examples as a way to attack entire groups.  It doesn't matter that there are very good people involved in the FSP who have accomplished quite a bit, the pro government groups will bring up the most extreme cases and try to lump anyone even remotely associated with the group with those extremes.

This is a common tactic and it's very frustrating that it happens. Stressing about this will drive you nuts though. Trying to control everyone else's activism is exhausting and ultimately futile. I think we just have to try to do a better job of expressing our own messages and fight misleading speech with better speech instead of trying to stop all the behavior of the attention-getting types.

As I said, many of us tried for quite a while. It didn't work. Accept they're going to do what they're going to do and just do our best on our own plans.


An underlying theme to my post was that I was seriously considering making the move.  But if I'm going to have to spend effort and energy trying to distance myself from FK, then it's probably not worth it.

In the interest of full disclosure.  I am not an activist. It would be pointless where I live.  But I feel I could be a decent activist if I were in the right place.

And I also want to thank everyone for their thoughtful and respectful replies to my posts.
Title: Re: Why do I not hear or see any major criticism of Free Keene and Ian Bernard?
Post by: dalebert on September 12, 2014, 08:13:06 pm
So that's your swan song? You've made up your mind and you're leaving? Because you're, at best, very high maintenance, but more likely just a troll. I don't think anyone here's going to beg you to stick around if that's what you're hoping for.
Title: Re: Why do I not hear or see any major criticism of Free Keene and Ian Bernard?
Post by: Argentum on September 13, 2014, 01:05:26 am
So that's your swan song? You've made up your mind and you're leaving? Because you're, at best, very high maintenance, but more likely just a troll. I don't think anyone here's going to beg you to stick around if that's what you're hoping for.

This is the prospective participants sub-forum, yes?  At one time,I was a serious "prospective participant".  I just wanted to voice my reasons why I am now an improbable "prospective participant".  It's great for Free Staters to point out new signers and new movers.  But that is what is seen. What is not seen is all of the people who have elected not to join for whatever reason. 

I don't understand the "high maintenance" comment.  If I did choose to move, I would just do my own thing and work with like-minded people.  I also don't understand the troll comment.  Is it not legitimate to ask the question I asked in this forum?  Have I been disrespectful or inflammatory?
Title: Re: Why do I not hear or see any major criticism of Free Keene and Ian Bernard?
Post by: freedomroad on September 13, 2014, 04:53:36 am
Is it not legitimate to ask the question I asked in this forum?  Have I been disrespectful or inflammatory?

It is a legitimate question but not an accurate question. Free staters have been highly critical of Ian Freeman, as has been pointed out. Ian Bernard, I have no idea who that is. If you are trying to make fun of Ian Freeman by calling him Ian Bernard, that might not be a legitimate question. That is just trolling him and makes you look bad.
Title: Re: Why do I not hear or see any major criticism of Free Keene and Ian Bernard?
Post by: dalebert on September 13, 2014, 08:36:44 am
I don't understand the "high maintenance" comment.  If I did choose to move, I would just do my own thing and work with like-minded people.  I also don't understand the troll comment.  Is it not legitimate to ask the question I asked in this forum?  Have I been disrespectful or inflammatory?

It was fine to ask it. It was answered and it is now on the record. Now you're just harping on something that is out of our control, as we explained.  Continuing to harp on it is completely unhelpful and therefore trollish.

(http://i.imgur.com/yRg6Dkx.jpg)

So if you're sure you don't want to be a mover, why are you wasting your time and ours harping on things that we can't control, i.e. other people? That sure sounds like a troll. At the very least, if your beef is with the Free Keene folks, go troll THEM (http://freekeene.com/). Their blog is very active with comments of people complaining about them and they actually take time to respond, I think. I don't go there often, but that seems to be the case.
Title: Re: Why do I not hear or see any major criticism of Free Keene and Ian Bernard?
Post by: Auspicious Aspect on September 13, 2014, 08:54:07 am
So that's your swan song? You've made up your mind and you're leaving? Because you're, at best, very high maintenance, but more likely just a troll. I don't think anyone here's going to beg you to stick around if that's what you're hoping for.

This is the prospective participants sub-forum, yes?  At one time,I was a serious "prospective participant".  I just wanted to voice my reasons why I am now an improbable "prospective participant".  It's great for Free Staters to point out new signers and new movers.  But that is what is seen. What is not seen is all of the people who have elected not to join for whatever reason. 

I don't understand the "high maintenance" comment.  If I did choose to move, I would just do my own thing and work with like-minded people.  I also don't understand the troll comment.  Is it not legitimate to ask the question I asked in this forum?  Have I been disrespectful or inflammatory?

I am going to repeat this: You have never been a serious FSP prospect. Looking back at your very early posts in 2009, you then spoke supportively of the Keene topless activism, which you now condemn. But more significantly, you also started right in on Ian, personally. That's your only reason for being here. Not to ask legitimate questions concerning prospective participation, just to harass Ian, for whatever strange reasons that motivate you.
Title: Re: Why do I not hear or see any major criticism of Free Keene and Ian Bernard?
Post by: FTL_Ian on September 14, 2014, 06:59:58 pm
Hey Argentum,

I see you ignored Maineshark's thoughtful post about age of consent.

Rather than just vaguely accusing me of having some sort of outrageous view, why don't you just get specific?



Was the video posted by the Stop Free Keene people (who are pretty statist) a mischaracterization of your position? Was it unfairly edited?

What was your understanding of my position?
Title: Re: Why do I not hear or see any major criticism of Free Keene and Ian Bernard?
Post by: MaineShark on September 14, 2014, 07:26:11 pm
There's no single age at which all individuals gain the maturity to consent to sex.
True. But there are plenty of ages I, and any other normal person, can name where all individuals of that age cannot consent.

Indeed.  And at those ages, there would be zero problem convincing a judge/jury/arbitrator/whatever that consent was impossible.  As you just said, no normal person could possibly disagree.  Hence, no number is needed.

Besides, supporting certain laws in our current State-dominated society does not make one any less libertarian.  The State isn't going anywhere too soon.  I support laws against murder.  The violators of these laws are apprehended by police paid for with tax-dollars,  prosecuted by people paid for with  tax-dollars in courts presided over and staffed by people paid for with tax-dollars. If found guilty, they are send to prisons paid for with tax dollars guarded by people  paid for with tax dollars.

That has nothing to do with the discussion.  You said:
In particular, their leader, Ian Bernard, has some objectionable, and non-libertarian, views about the age of consent.

Even if we were to accept the argument that it's okay for a libertarian to believe that current age of consent laws are acceptable within the context of the present, imperfect society, that does not support the claim that someone who speaks out against that nonsense is un-libertarian.  Arguing that there is some technicality under which your own views are tolerable does not equate with proving that someone who actually holds the correct views should be condemned.

And, of course, the argument that the current laws is tolerable, is not sensible.  As I proved, the set ages could be stricken and replaced by simply making maturity an element of the crime, entirely within the current system.  Therefore, no libertarian can support the current laws as some sort of "well, it's the best we can manage within the context of this Statist society," because it's not even close to the best that can be managed.

Anyway, you have made a very serious charge against Ian, and you have entirely failed to support that charge.
Title: Re: Why do I not hear or see any major criticism of Free Keene and Ian Bernard?
Post by: dalebert on September 15, 2014, 08:50:33 am
I admit it's probably way too optimistic of me to have hope that the troll actually left, but now you guys are just feeding the troll.
Title: Re: Why do I not hear or see any major criticism of Free Keene and Ian Bernard?
Post by: FTL_Ian on September 15, 2014, 01:08:50 pm
He's been around here for years.
Title: Re: Why do I not hear or see any major criticism of Free Keene and Ian Bernard?
Post by: Argentum on September 15, 2014, 02:34:34 pm
I'll still stay on these forums posting and replying to others,  but I promise not to respond to anyone who has called me a troll.  I think that's fair.
Title: Re: Why do I not hear or see any major criticism of Free Keene and Ian Bernard?
Post by: lildog on September 15, 2014, 03:07:09 pm
An underlying theme to my post was that I was seriously considering making the move.  But if I'm going to have to spend effort and energy trying to distance myself from FK, then it's probably not worth it.

In the interest of full disclosure.  I am not an activist. It would be pointless where I live.  But I feel I could be a decent activist if I were in the right place.

And I also want to thank everyone for their thoughtful and respectful replies to my posts.

Disclosure on my part: I lived in NH before the free state project started so I'm not a free stater but I do agree with their ideas.

That said, I don't think you have to spend energy and effort distancing yourself from F.K..  In fact if you want you don't even need to identify yourself as someone involved in the free state project.

If you are a good person and have good ideas, it doesn't matter if you claim to be from Group Z or Group A, people will listen to you and if you are lucky your ideas will plant seeds that will grow.  And yes, there will always be those who disagree and sometimes those who disagree are the extremists on the other side who will look for any reason to attack whether its justified or not.
Title: Re: Why do I not hear or see any major criticism of Free Keene and Ian Bernard?
Post by: Argentum on September 15, 2014, 04:07:09 pm
An underlying theme to my post was that I was seriously considering making the move.  But if I'm going to have to spend effort and energy trying to distance myself from FK, then it's probably not worth it.

In the interest of full disclosure.  I am not an activist. It would be pointless where I live.  But I feel I could be a decent activist if I were in the right place.

And I also want to thank everyone for their thoughtful and respectful replies to my posts.

Disclosure on my part: I lived in NH before the free state project started so I'm not a free stater but I do agree with their ideas.

That said, I don't think you have to spend energy and effort distancing yourself from F.K..  In fact if you want you don't even need to identify yourself as someone involved in the free state project.

If you are a good person and have good ideas, it doesn't matter if you claim to be from Group Z or Group A, people will listen to you and if you are lucky your ideas will plant seeds that will grow.  And yes, there will always be those who disagree and sometimes those who disagree are the extremists on the other side who will look for any reason to attack whether its justified or not.

lildog,

Thanks for the well thought out suggestion.
Title: Re: Why do I not hear or see any major criticism of Free Keene and Ian Bernard?
Post by: MaineShark on September 15, 2014, 06:19:14 pm
I'll still stay on these forums posting and replying to others,  but I promise not to respond to anyone who has called me a troll.  I think that's fair.

So, since I haven't called you a troll, can I expect an actual reply to my post addressing the issues with your claims?
Title: Re: Why do I not hear or see any major criticism of Free Keene and Ian Bernard?
Post by: FTL_Ian on September 16, 2014, 09:25:08 pm
Hey Argentum,

I see you ignored Maineshark's thoughtful post about age of consent.

Rather than just vaguely accusing me of having some sort of outrageous view, why don't you just get specific?



Was the video posted by the Stop Free Keene people (who are pretty statist) a mischaracterization of your position? Was it unfairly edited?

What was your understanding of my position?

I'm still waiting on your answer to my question as well, thank you.