Free State Project Forum

FSP -- General Discussion => Prospective Participants => Topic started by: Joey on August 20, 2002, 10:20:31 pm

Title: Are we really ready for this?
Post by: Joey on August 20, 2002, 10:20:31 pm

Of some of the interviews I've done with people and the information about FSP I have given to people, one big, BIG question that always comes up is this:

Are these guys READY for what is in store for them?

Seriously, think about it. A massive group of peaceful, freedom-loving people moving to a state at once, hoping to turn stuff around.

Anyone remember Waco in 1993?

What about Ruby Ridge?

You know the federal government would try to put a "spy" in the FSP or whatever - I know and you all should know that the government would try to do SOMETHING to halt this mass gathering of patriots.

I'm curious myself. Are all of you willing and ready just in CASE something does happen?

I'm not a violent person, but I sure as heck don't want to be shot or whatever just because I believe in real freedom.

I dunno, it's been on my mind for awhile. I'm curious to see what others have to say or think about it.
Title: Re:Are we really ready for this?
Post by: percy, aka tntsmum on August 21, 2002, 05:48:37 am

Quote
author=Joey
Anyone remember Waco in 1993?


To not consider this aspect is to be unrealistic and ignore history, IMO.

I've hit on this problem a couple times so far, since it was a pretty obvious one, as well as suggesting a possible solution. Still haven't seen any actual feedback on the subject though. Prolly should have started a fresh thread on this, as I unfortunately posted it in the middle of a political debate.  :)

Heres the post from that thread:

Quote
author=MouseBorg
IMO, properly done publicity is a must, simply for our own well being.

Those having read the (anti) Patriot Act have some idea just what a fine line we could end up walking unless it is publically established beyond any reasonable doubt that we are on a legit, law abiding basis.

Also toss in the aspect that the first most knew of the Ruby Ridge & Waco things was when the fit hit the shan... and was reported strictly from a biased viewpoint. They could well have been nut cases, but due to bad publicity, we'll never know.

Agreeing as well with not wishing to see the locals mobilize against us, we may need to strike a middle ground somehow.

IOW, I think I may possibly understand the problem, but I haven't the foggiest notion what the solution might be.  :)



This is why I think we really ought to look at getting as many members involved not only in publicity but in the media industry. Small local papers and TV stations are good places to start. Honesty about who we are and what we represent is key, if we are present and can have even a small role in how we are represented by the media it could help. Even though I'm just a lowly grunt at the paper the editor has run his editorials past me from time to time, and discussed current events with me to see what other opinions are out there and to judge the balance of his written position. Yould be surprised how much could be accomplished by  some sane representatives of FSP in the media outlets.
Title: Re:Are we really ready for this?
Post by: Steve on August 22, 2002, 01:55:01 pm
>Anyone remember Waco in 1993?

As I recall, that was a bunch o' wackos, not that it justifies their slaughter.  If we avoid wild, anti-social behavior, we will avoid their fate.  Yes, it is your right to be wild and anti-social, but that will not encourage your new neighbors to welcome you, and it will give certain authorities the fig leaf they need.  I don't suspect that this will be a problem, because all that we have in common is love of liberty.  Fine, we have one nudist, but unless an army of them goes marching down the road, it won't provoke an attack.

Speaking of which, has anyone seen the short film "A Heap of Trouble" about "nine naked men go walking down the road..."
http://www.go-brooklyn.com/html/issues/24_29/bamcensor.html

Anyway, all you rebels out there try to tone down your talk of secession, guns, and more serious weapons.
Title: Re:Are we really ready for this?
Post by: Joey on August 25, 2002, 12:48:33 am

Yeah, the whole nuclear bomb thing was kind of freakin me out.

Hey, I'm all for the right to bear arms, but where is the line drawn when it comes to "weapons of mass destruction?"
Title: Re:Are we really ready for this?
Post by: Elizabeth on August 25, 2002, 01:12:15 am
Joey, you should probably ask that question in the Libertarian Politics or Libertarianism 101 sections.  Thread-jacking is a no-no.  ;)
Title: Re:Are we really ready for this?
Post by: antayla on August 25, 2002, 06:30:49 pm

Joey, you should probably ask that question in the Libertarian Politics or Libertarianism 101 sections.  Thread-jacking is a no-no.  ;)


As I recall, Joey started this thread :P
Title: Re:Are we really ready for this?
Post by: Patriot69 on August 29, 2002, 09:41:42 pm
Ok. first point, whether or not someone is a "wacko" or not is irreleveant, Those people at Waco were murdered by a government who, according to the Constitution, is to "promote the general welfare" (Which is a problem in itself, but I digress). Do you think that they would be STUPID enough to mess with 20,000 Freedom loving people? Personally, I don't care. If they want a fight, they would do better taking it to Canada, they'd be alot easier to overrun than us. I may be a peace-loving Libertarian, but I keep my guns oiled and loaded....

If the Founders worried about what the King thought, we'd all be British subjects right now.
Title: Re:Are we really ready for this?
Post by: Halo on August 29, 2002, 11:57:01 pm
You all do of course realize that the FBI is reading all our posts and profiling each of us. When they determine that we are not just a bunch of freedom loving nuts expressing our desire for freedom in the virtual world of the internet, and that we might just carry out the plan, they'll come knocking. Well, maybe they won't knock. You think I'm joking? I was on another forum, (Corvettes) and one guy made some rather overt remarks, although not threatening, towards another member and he was paid a vistit by the police.

And in case you haven't noticed the Patriot Act has put another nail in the coffin of the 4th, 5th and 6th Amendments. All the Feds have to do is determine that you are a terrorist threat, and they throw you in jail without charging you with a crime - claiming you no longer have rights guaranteed by the Constitution, we are against the government.

They don't need to mess with 20,000 Freedom loving people - maybe just 20 or 30.
Title: Re:Are we really ready for this?
Post by: Elizabeth on August 30, 2002, 12:33:07 am
Except that the only people foolish and/or outright stupid enough to make overt statements about armaments and violence aren't the people integral to this project.  

Hasn't anyone ever heard of a self-fulfilling prophecy?  If you sit in your house obsessing about government retaliation and then broadcast your insanity over the net, don't be surprised if your worst fears come true.
Title: Re:Are we really ready for this?
Post by: di540 on August 30, 2002, 01:06:54 am
Quote
we are against the government.

In practice, they are not 'the' government since the system has broken down to the point where it suffers from multiple personality disorder, like 'good cop, bad cop', but has devolved into 'good psycopath, bad psycopath'. So you can choose to be for the 'good gov't', since part of it will have to pretend to be the least corrupt country in the world, to maintain political & financial credibility.
Quote

They don't need to mess with 20,000 Freedom loving people - maybe just 20 or 30.

That would work if those 20 or 30 were leaders. But FSP will work even w/out leaders, since most of the members are 'activists' rather than sheep. At least active enough to vote w/their feet. They'd have to go after everyone after you've moved. Perhaps another federally trained psychopath will explode a yellow truck (10x farther than where the 757 crashed at the Pentagon, w/10x less fuel, yet causing much more damage) and then blame the evil libertarians and throw you all into mothballed military bases, for violating the laws of physics.
Title: Re:Are we really ready for this?
Post by: Reaper on August 30, 2002, 09:06:50 am
If they do decide to come for me they'd better remember what they trained me in first.  :o
Title: Re:Are we really ready for this?
Post by: Halo on August 30, 2002, 12:43:13 pm

Except that the only people foolish and/or outright stupid enough to make overt statements about armaments and violence aren't the people integral to this project.  


Well, statements have been made on this forum, and they don't have to be integral to the project to cause harm to it. And what you say may seem innocent to you, but to our men in black... You may recall Alan Iverson was going to be charged with making "terroristic" statements when he went on his little rampage looking for his wife. Remember, all the reasons why you are participating in this free state project are reasons why the government will want to stop you.
Title: Re:Are we really ready for this?
Post by: antayla on August 30, 2002, 05:31:41 pm
There is no better trainer than poverty imho... a person can learn alot about tenacity, deprivation, and "making do."  Course, I'm talking about people, not sheeple :P

I'm a role playing gamer too, and that helps alot I think... if only to think up creative solutions to seemingly insurmountable problems.  Gawd bless gamers :)

I need to learn how to shoot better however.   For self defense, of course :)  
Title: Re:Are we really ready for this?
Post by: Mega Joule on September 01, 2002, 12:44:33 am
Quote
Quote from: mAximo

That would work if those 20 or 30 were leaders. But FSP will work even w/out leaders, since most of the members are 'activists' rather than sheep. At least active enough to vote w/their feet. They'd have to go after everyone after you've moved.


I certainly have my doubts about how many activists we would have left if the feds rounded up 20 or 30 of our members and held them as enemies of the state.  

Meg
Title: Re:Are we really ready for this?
Post by: johnnyg on September 30, 2002, 07:44:48 pm
What's with all the violent comments? "I keep my gun oiled and ready" - like shooting one as they come for you will do anything to further liberty. All it will do it make a few more kids fatherless.

It seems this project has chosen america because, despite everything, it has a system that could promote "liberty" theoretically. It promotes this by the law (Constitution) and not by the sword (or oiled gun).

Your comments make a curious observer (like myself) wonder if you are the type of people who are really ready to do something of this magnitude correctly. Personally, I think I'll keep an eye on your interesting project but I seriously doubt I want to be directly associated with such a trigger happy bunch.  

Title: Re:Are we really ready for this?
Post by: Thermal on September 30, 2002, 08:38:01 pm
Well johnny, you strike me as someone who is a little naive. Now don't take that as an insult, as it isn't meant that way.

To begin with, your example is not what I would call a "violent comment". Our founding fathers knew the value of an armed citizenry, and the effect it has on protecting individual liberty. Now if you'll allow me to go off topic I'd like to post a couple of my favorites.

"To preserve liberty it is essential that the whole body of the
people always possess arms and be taught alike...how to use them."
- Richard Henry Lee

"Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will
preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined."
        Patrick Henry during Virginia's Convention to Ratify the Constitution

(above borrowed from attrition.org}
who have a nice collection here: http://www.attrition.org/quotes/guns.html (http://www.attrition.org/quotes/guns.html) and here:http://www.attrition.org/quotes/freedom.html (http://www.attrition.org/quotes/freedom.html) if you'd like to know where I'm coming from. These people make my point far better and more eloquently than I could.

In closing I'd like to say to you johnnyg that I very much disagree with what you're getting at. Frankly I think you misunderstand what this project, and the Constitution, is really about.

Sorry my inaugural post turned into such a rant - not to mention wavering mostly off topic but this "trigger happy" nonsense really gets to me.

Yours in liberty,
   Tim
Title: Re:Are we really ready for this?
Post by: johnnyg on October 01, 2002, 02:39:22 pm
As I understand your position, anytime I *feel* my liberty is being violated, I have the right to react violently. Is this what you are really saying?

Implying you'll shoot federal agents isnt a violent comment? I feel its nothing but a violent comment.

Perhaps I'm crazy or have grossly misunderstood your position. I am willing to listen but you're going to have to majorly clarify your position.
Title: Re:Are we really ready for this?
Post by: JasonPSorens on October 01, 2002, 03:20:19 pm
No FSP member has ever advocated violence against government employees here, and I am sure none ever will.
Title: Re:Are we really ready for this?
Post by: Mega Joule on October 04, 2002, 12:02:02 am

No FSP member has ever advocated violence against government employees here, and I am sure none ever will.


Absolutely!  We're zealous, not crazy.   ;)

Meg
Title: Re:Are we really ready for this?
Post by: Midway76 on October 04, 2002, 08:11:03 am
johnnyg reminds me of those self-styled "protectors of children" who frequent adult chat sites trying to entrap one into makeing injudicious remarks by pretending to be a precocious 13 year old girl.  That aside, violence is not an evil concept.  It only means acting with great physical force, so as to injure or damage (per the dictionary).  There are many cases where violence is appropriate, defense of self and others comes to mind.  A whole other concept is Aggression which is the unprovoked attack on another.  I have certainly not read of anyone here advocating either the use of violence or aggression against "government agents" but that does not mean the use of violence could not be justified.  Just read the news about "police officers" who use their positions to kidnap and rape women for instance.  Surely johnnyg would allow the women involved the use of violence against such "government agents" in their defense?

Just a thought.
Title: Re:Are we really ready for this?
Post by: johnnyg on October 04, 2002, 11:55:59 am
I'm amazed you all can glean so much information about me from a few posts. Perhaps with such talent this project will get off the ground.

I was new to the site, I looked up an interesting thread after reading the FAQ, and I see comments about shooting people coming for you. Perhaps that doesn't represent the entire entity, however, it none the less needs to be addressed. The Black Panthers didn't represent the civil rights movement, but they did affect it.

I need to remind you all that we have a justice system for a reason. The reason is that the quality of life for everyone improves when you use words to solve disputes instead of violence. You seem to advocate this position in your "take over a state using the law" idea. Yet, when I suggest it is a bad idea to stand fast in your position until it meets a violent end I'm flamed. I'm not answered in four posts, I'm just yelled down.

The one situation I was given has no corralation to the present one. You are (generally) americans unhappy with a system of government so oppressive that you're allowed to found an elaborate website detailing how you plan on changing it. Yeah, things aren't close to perfect  but you are hardly being forced into an ally to be raped.

Quote
That aside, violence is not an evil concept.  It only means acting with great physical force, so as to injure or damage (per the dictionary).


This depends greatly on how you view violence. If you view violence as an isolated occurance, just one rape in one ally at one time, then you would be in the clear to use great physical force.

If you have a more broad definition of violence, say, as THE plauge of the human race - the thing that allowed millions of people to die on battlefields and gas chambers and their own houses as they were killed by people whose parents taught violence. Furthermore, the thing that people like Ghandi and MLK proved you can over come with non-violence, then you might take a different approach.
Title: Re:Are we really ready for this?
Post by: Elizabeth on October 04, 2002, 12:21:06 pm
johnnyg, please check out this post from the founder of the FSP:

http://forum.freestateproject.org/index.php?board=2;action=display;threadid=411
Title: Re:Are we really ready for this?
Post by: RidleyReport on October 12, 2002, 11:06:36 pm
MouseBorg wrote:

Quote

Agreeing as well with not wishing to see the locals mobilize against us, we may need to strike a middle ground somehow.



We have a thread and (gasp) a possible consensus on this subject over at http://forum.freestateproject.org/index.php?action=search2  if anyone is interested in joining in.

Title: Re:Are we really ready for this?
Post by: Penfist on October 16, 2002, 10:10:13 am
Quote
What's with all the violent comments? "I keep my gun oiled and ready" - like shooting one as they come for you will do anything to further liberty. All it will do it make a few more kids fatherless.

It seems this project has chosen america because, despite everything, it has a system that could promote "liberty" theoretically. It promotes this by the law (Constitution) and not by the sword (or oiled gun).

Your comments make a curious observer (like myself) wonder if you are the type of people who are really ready to do something of this magnitude correctly. Personally, I think I'll keep an eye on your interesting project but I seriously doubt I want to be directly associated with such a trigger happy bunch.


I'd have to say that there is a huge difference between self-defense and murder. If someone decides to defend his or her home against what he or she considers an invasion, I certainly have no problem with it.

I don't get the feeling anyone serious about the FSP is also seriously trigger happy. Why the hell would someone waste time planning to move cross country if they have a death wish and dreams of some sort of glorious martyr's death?

The vast majority of FSPers are dedicated to living free. No part of living free includes a license to murder those we disagree with. I think you're a little bit paranoid if you think we want to go out in some blaze of glory, with our guns chattering and our homes on fire. I want to die old and happy in my bed.

You make a completely irrational comment when you state that America promotes law by the Constitution and not by the sword. Who are you kidding, friend? Do you think most people would follow the laws without the force that backs those laws up? When laws are broken, people with guns come. Laws without swords to back them up are as useless as a voting Democrat released into the wilderness to fend for itself.

Please stop mischarecterizing us as a trigger-happy bunch until you have some basis for your agrument.

Thanks.