Free State Project Forum

Archive => Which State? => Topic started by: JasonPSorens on August 16, 2002, 01:03:44 pm

Title: liberal whining about delaware
Post by: JasonPSorens on August 16, 2002, 01:03:44 pm
I found this article in The New Republic about Delaware amusing. The
establishment-leftist author is absolutely enraged at Delaware's "history
of disloyalty."


http://www.tnr.com/doc.mhtml?i=20020819&s=chait081902 (http://www.tnr.com/doc.mhtml?i=20020819&s=chait081902)
Title: Re:liberal whining about delaware
Post by: Uncle Deedah on August 16, 2002, 01:58:43 pm
Hardly any secret that I really like Delaware, so it makes sense that the New Republic would hate it, LOL.

Sure would be nice to see the FSP pick that tiny state, imagine the movement for sound constitutional government taking hold just a few miles south from where the whole movement for freedom began back in 1776. Poetic justice.

Plus, when folks get discouraged a nice day trip to Independance Hall, Carpenter's Hall, and the Liberty Bell would help set things into perspective.
Title: Re:liberal whining about delaware
Post by: Charley on August 17, 2002, 02:54:32 pm
Before yall get too enamored with Delaware pls make an effort to read the Wilmington News Journal and look at the budgets for Delaware and Wilmington.
 Delaware is like 2 different states divided by the C&D canal.  North of the canal is like Baltimore or DC and south is like western VA or rural PA.
 In the past 10 years liberal democrats have come to dominate the state government and the elected federal reps.  The republican reps who remain are not conservative. It would probably take more than 100,000 FS emigrees to change the balance of power.  The price of real estate would make this a difficult task.

 
Title: Re:liberal whining about delaware
Post by: wilaygarn on August 19, 2002, 08:35:18 am
Excuse me if this is the wrong place to post this, I am new here. I am unfamilliar with this bulletin board layout.  Feel free to advise me.

A good friend of mine says the Delaware is "owned" by DuPont, whether that is the corporation or the family I am not sure, but he believes their money and power could counter almost any number of immigrants.

I think geographially speaking, Delaware is very good, but I don't think the rulers in the Disstrict of Criminals would tolerate upstarts so close to home. True, they might not be able to do anything legally against it, but I recall a good deal of illegality being committed by that bunch.

I have a couple of comments about Vermont but I'm thinking it should be in a seperate thread.  It's time for me to go now, I'll be back!
Title: Re:liberal whining about delaware
Post by: ChrisforLiberty on August 20, 2002, 11:53:44 pm
DuPont the company was founded by Eleuthère Irénée du Pont in 1802. Its first products were gunpowder and explosives. I've heard but have not been able to confirm that Du Pont is one of the biggest underwriters of the War on Drugs dating back at least to WWII when they feared hemp production would threaten their Nylon business.  
Title: Re:liberal whining about delaware
Post by: Eddie_Bradford on August 21, 2002, 10:28:31 am
In responce to Charley, I agree Delaware's native culture is the most worrysome aspect of this state IMO but you're wrong that we would need 100,000 people.  I think you'll agree because their one house of Rep. Castle is a Republican who won in 1998 with about 2/3 of the vote.  Oh yeah and he only got 119,811 votes.  On off presidential year elections Delaware's total voting population is just a tiny hair more than Wyoming.  In 1994 There were actually more votes cast in Wyoming than in Delaware.  Also remember until recently Delaware had Roth as a Republican Senator of Roth IRA fame.  Roth IRAs make me very very happy and there are many insurance and business related lobbies.  As for the other Senator I think he's was installed by some DC lawyers and liberals probably taking advantage of the easy ability to win a Senate seat in such a small state with a relatively small amount of money.  Anyway the Rs win by bigger margins than the Ds it seems.  I think the most important thing is that we can take over the whole state government with only 26% of the vote.  For example in 1998 there were about 180,000 voters who voted for their Congressman.  Let's assume all of these people also voted in the local state races too, since the congressional election wasn't very contested this isn't a bad assumption I think (even though less people usually vote in these type of elections)  So that means that we need to win half of the seats in the house and Senate  Theoretically (if everyone was possitioned in the right places) this could be done with only 45,000 votes (50,000 after we move there)  That means each one of us would need to convince 1.5 other people to vote for our candidate.  This really doesn't seem to be that hard, and since we'll raise lots of money that will surely help.
-Eddie
Title: Re:liberal whining about delaware
Post by: JasonPSorens on August 22, 2002, 07:26:12 pm
This evening there was a "Crossfire" debate between the whinging Chait and Delaware's lone Representative about the virtues and vices of Delaware.  It was rather amusing, but didn't generate a whole lot of light. ;)
Title: Re:liberal whining about delaware
Post by: bud on August 25, 2002, 05:48:23 am
ChrisforLiberty,

You live in a state with an idiot for governor?  That doesn't narrow it down very much for us.
Title: Re:liberal whining about delaware
Post by: ChrisforLiberty on September 06, 2002, 11:18:33 am

ChrisforLiberty,

You live in a state with an idiot for governor?  That doesn't narrow it down very much for us.


I'm from the state that Al Gore claims to be from.
Title: Re:liberal whining about delaware
Post by: Otosan on September 06, 2002, 11:43:41 am
ChrisforLiberty:

I have the same idiot for gov as you do, and it looks like we have a choice between dum and dummer this  time around.
:(  :(  

And do not get me started on our great selection for Senator!    :P

(NE 10ec)  ;D
Title: Re:liberal whining about delaware
Post by: Wild Pegasus on September 06, 2002, 12:58:40 pm
While it must be encouraging to you that Mike Castle got in with only 120k votes, I should point out that 20k is only 1/6 of that.  Even with all of you voting, even if all of you drag someone else along to vote with you, that leaves you with 40k votes.  That won't win you the governorship, the Senate, or the House.

One other thing to point out is that, if it looks like extremists are going to be elected, the other part(y/ies) will have higher turnout to keep the extremists out of office.  This has been shown numerous times in American politics, and most recently, in the French election between Chirac and Le Pen.  20k is a nice start, but it's not going to get you a win anywhere.  If you guys get too close to winning, people are going to turn out en masse to keep you from winning.  Of course, all of this is predicated on the idea that the voting counting is done fairly, which may be an issue in and of itself.

Boss Tweed's First Observation: They can vote for whoever they like, as long as I count the votes.

As for the DuPonts owning Delaware, Delaware politics are under the control of the chemical and banking industries.  Big corporations are not interested in the free market at all, and since the state apparatus pays big returns, they will invest heavily to whip you.

Boss Tweed's Second Observation: They can vote for whoever they like, as long as I pick the candidates.

Give up on Delaware, seriously.

- Josh
Title: Re:liberal whining about delaware
Post by: JasonPSorens on September 06, 2002, 02:20:36 pm
Actually, all you need to win in a close 3-way race is about 35%.  In any state people might turn out en masse to oppose us if we go in there like gangbusters without doing our homework first.  We'll have to start by affecting the state's political culture & gaining political experience at the local level.
Title: Re:liberal whining about delaware
Post by: Elizabeth on September 06, 2002, 02:37:14 pm

While it must be encouraging to you that Mike Castle got in with only 120k votes, I should point out that 20k is only 1/6 of that.


You mention the 20K number, but you may not have read why that number was chosen:
http://www.freestateproject.com/strategies.htm
Title: Re:liberal whining about delaware
Post by: Wild Pegasus on September 06, 2002, 05:08:20 pm
I did read the strategies page.  What I am trying to point out is that is all fine and good when the politicians are generally inoffensive centrist suits.  When you're talking about dismantling public schools, ending state support of business, and severing the cord between the state's residents and the middle class federal welfare programs, you're talking about the kind of beliefs which, though right, scare the living hell out of people.  Running those political races scares people who would otherwise not bother to vote to the polls under the "I don't like this jackass, but I won't let those nuts take away <x>." philosophy.

If you follow the "local races mean experience" branch, you'll end up like the Libertarian Party schmucks who get appointed to dogcatcher or the local planning board and end up doing nothing to advance liberty, making the whole movement a waste of time.  Or, if you run as a third party on an inoffensive government reduction platform, you may even get elected.  But you won't get anything done since every program cut means a fight with those who benefit from it, and the media will savage your every effort.  You'll be out and for good the next cycle.

There's simply nothing for the broader liberty movement to gain through electoral politics.

- Josh
Title: Re:liberal whining about delaware
Post by: JasonPSorens on September 06, 2002, 07:00:21 pm
There is no alternative to electoral politics.  We are all here interested in changing the laws.  Politicians make the laws.  The only way to change the laws is to change the politicians.  There are two ways to change the politicians: 1) defeating them at the ballot box; 2) killing them.  Apparently you prefer the latter.  I think that's lunacy.
Title: Re: anarchists who want to shoot politicians
Post by: Solitar on September 06, 2002, 07:21:10 pm
Wild Pegasus had a great post regarding Delaware which has me seriously reconsidering that state.
Quote
Delaware politics are under the control of the chemical and banking industries.  Big corporations are not interested in the free market at all, and since the state apparatus pays big returns, they will invest heavily to whip you.
Thus I've started a thread specifically to address:
Can a small state's government be too easily bought?
http://forum.freestateproject.org/index.php?board=5;action=display;threadid=262

Unfortunately Wild Pegasus has given up on the local political possibilities. He needs to move to a smaller community or pick more winnable seats. I did. The reason the LP candidates don't win more legislative seats is that they don't try in races they can win. Many council and board seats go unopposed while the LP races after state and federal seats.

On another note...
Though it may not apply to the Wild Pegasus, some anarchist types do have the attitude about shooting politicians. Somebody back a bit ago here posted "The only good politician is a dead politician".
How can we change things when some have that attitude?
Title: Re:liberal whining about delaware
Post by: Victor VI on September 06, 2002, 11:50:37 pm
I found this article in The New Republic about Delaware amusing. The
establishment-leftist author is absolutely enraged at Delaware's "history
of disloyalty."

ROFLMAO!!!

That was priceless! Any state that can evoke such a vitrolic reaction from a Sensitive Man of the Hanky such as Jonathan Chait has certainly got my support! They gotta be doing something right!

I took particular notice of the item which stated public floggings weren't banned until 1952. Perhaps it's not too late to ressurect the practice for application to tax-and-spend politicians.

If we could get that law passed, I'd move there tomorrow! ;)
Title: Re:liberal whining about delaware
Post by: vmd1 on September 08, 2002, 07:18:15 pm

I did read the strategies page.  What I am trying to point out is that is all fine and good when the politicians are generally inoffensive centrist suits.  When you're talking about dismantling public schools, ending state support of business, and severing the cord between the state's residents and the middle class federal welfare programs, you're talking about the kind of beliefs which, though right, scare the living hell out of people.  Running those political races scares people who would otherwise not bother to vote to the polls under the "I don't like this jackass, but I won't let those nuts take away <x>." philosophy.

I think that this really gets to the heart of the matter.  Unless we choose a state that is already inhabitated by anti-government extremists, the FSP will never have any real influence.  I'd say Idaho or someplace similar is our best chance.  Forget any of those east-coast states, they have way too many normal people.
Title: Re:liberal whining about delaware
Post by: Wild Pegasus on September 09, 2002, 02:10:34 pm
Pardon me, but I will be making two consecutive posts to deal with two very different issues.  First, Jason's post:

Quote

There is no alternative to electoral politics.


This is one of the worst quotes I've ever read in the libertarian movement.  When has electoral politics ever moved toward liberty?  Once?  Never?  Politics has always been changed by people working outside the system because the system is designed not to be changed.  The system is designed to ensconce the power of the people who created it.

The precious Constitution, which is an object of worship in the libertarian movement, was the first step in the centralization of power in the US and the first steps of the development of the overweening American empire that currently exists.  It was intentionally written to be vague and undefined, because the people who created it agitated for a larger, more intrusive government - James Madison, Alexander Hamilton, etc.  Much like that piece of garbage Reagan, men like Madison and Hamilton used the trappings of markets and liberty to describe what was in reality a strengthening and centralizing of power.

Quote

We are all here interested in changing the laws.


Well then, you should probably understand how laws, real laws, come about.  The Greeks understood how they came about, because they had the same word for law and custom: nomos.  Real laws come about either through the discovery of natural laws or the consent and agreement of voluntary communities.  Saying the state makes laws is like saying a farmer makes meat.

The libertarian politics movement needs to understand history before it starts kissing babies.

- Josh
Title: Re: anarchists who want to shoot politicians
Post by: Elizabeth on September 09, 2002, 02:19:50 pm
Somebody back a bit ago here posted "The only good politician is a dead politician".


That person was a 16-year-old trolling our board from anti-state.com.  I sent him packing.
Title: Re:liberal whining about delaware
Post by: Wild Pegasus on September 09, 2002, 02:23:02 pm
Quote

Wild Pegasus had a great post regarding Delaware which has me seriously reconsidering that state. Unfortunately he has given up on the local political possibilities.


There are no possibilities in politics.  Politics is not the art of the possible, it is the art of conning people out of their money and liberty.

Quote

The reason the LP candidates don't win more legislative seats is that they don't try in races they can win. Many council and board seats go unopposed while the LP races after state and federal seats.


It doesn't matter if a Libertarian takes the role of school board, freeholder, planning authority or what not because those positions shouldn't even exist.  Libertarians in those roles have done absolutely nothing to advance the cause of liberty, and in fact have hurt it by associating the free ideas of libertarian political thought with "better management" of immoral structures instead of "these structures ought not exist".  How is a Libertarian going to say "I believe in liberty" when they are out kissing babies and shaking hands to gain a seat in the power structures that oppose liberty?

As for winning national races, former Libertarian presidential candidate Ron Paul is currently a representative from Texas in Congress.  Who outside of his district and the libertarian movement has ever heard of him?  How often is he on Crossfire?  Face the Nation?  O'Reilly Factor?  How often is he quoted in the papers, even though he has a unique point of view?  Divide his effectiveness by 10m for the local Libertarian Planning Authority Board member.

Quote

Though it may not apply to the Wild Pegasus, some anarchist types do have the attitude about shooting politicians.


It doesn't apply to me.  I have no qualms about killing politicians, but I also understand the history of "politics of the deed", which left-anarchists practiced at the turn of the 20th century.  It accomplished something terrific - the mass arrests of anyone associated with the anarchist movement, and the mass deportation of anarchist-related immigrants.  It's an inherently unworkable strategy and will likely get the entire libertarian movement thrown in military prison, shot, or worse.  Until the state has been delegitimized in the minds of people, shooting politicians will not work.

- Josh
Title: Re:liberal whining about delaware
Post by: Elizabeth on September 09, 2002, 02:25:02 pm
When has electoral politics ever moved toward liberty?


Your assessment is irrelevant, given that electoral politics is the chosen strategy of this project.  If you are here in an attempt to convince us all of the impracticality or immorality of the project, you are better off spending your energy elsewhere.
Title: Re:liberal whining about delaware
Post by: JasonPSorens on September 09, 2002, 03:31:56 pm

When has electoral politics ever moved toward liberty?  Once?  


New Zealand, 1980s.  Costa Rica, 2002.  Even the American Revolution occurred through colony-level electoral politics.

Quote

The precious Constitution, which is an object of worship in the libertarian movement, was the first step in the centralization of power in the US


I'm not going to disagree with you there.

Quote

Well then, you should probably understand how laws, real laws, come about.  The Greeks understood how they came about, because they had the same word for law and custom: nomos.  Real laws come about either through the discovery of natural laws or the consent and agreement of voluntary communities.  Saying the state makes laws is like saying a farmer makes meat.


Which is correct.  Farmers do make meat; politicians do make laws: without farmers we wouldn't have meat, and without politicians we wouldn't have (positive) laws.  Don't confuse natural laws and positive laws, BTW.  A positive law may be unjust because it violates natural law.  However, all the philosophizing about natural law in the world won't change positive laws.  (This is not an argument against belief in natural law - I do believe in natural law, simply an argument for bifurcating the two.)


So what is your strategy for changing positive laws, if not electoral politics & the FSP?
Title: Re:liberal whining about delaware
Post by: mdw on September 09, 2002, 11:17:25 pm
There are no possibilities in politics.  Politics is not the art of the possible, it is the art of conning people out of their money and liberty.


I am unsure why one should focus on exclusively on politics when evaluaing the FSP. I view the FSP in a much broader context. 20,000 freedom-oriented individuals who move to a particular state in a coordinated manner will form the basis for a cultural change. The seed for a genuine culture of freedom will be germinated, regardless of the existing politics of the state. It is this culture of freedom which will create an environment where reform of the state will be possible. In the terminology of Davidson and Rees-Mogg, the customers of government will form a vocal minority, able to exert more influence than the (philosophically bankrupt) employees of government.

Politics is simply the social expression of the dominant ethical conclusions of the populace. Bring together 20,000 individuals who agree upon a particular ethical conclusion, and there will be a definite impact on the politics in that locale.

Regards,
mdw
Title: Re:liberal whining about delaware
Post by: Hank on July 28, 2003, 08:48:57 pm
Quote
There's simply nothing for the broader liberty movement to gain through electoral politics.
What do you propose which would work better? Revolution? Yeah, right. Tell that to the last bunch that tried it and got squashed like a bug under a tank track.
Title: Re:liberal whining about delaware
Post by: Robert H. on July 29, 2003, 05:10:23 pm
You obviously have no clue as to what is possible from within the system. Try starting small at a local level. You can do a lot if you have at least a few others supporting you at the local level...

In regard to having "at least a few others supporting you at the local level," some of us have been discussing the idea of an FSP-based township or low population county strategy over on the Political Strategy forum.

Or click here (http://forum.freestateproject.org/index.php?board=20;action=display;threadid=2625).

This is definitely based on the idea of having a few like-minded folks to lean on for support.  It's also a good opportunity to demonstrate on a smaller level what we hope to accomplish on a larger level (ie., state government).  Sort of a "showroom model" approach.