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FSP -- General Discussion => Prospective Participants => Topic started by: LL1207 on July 05, 2011, 08:38:28 pm

Title: Property Tax
Post by: LL1207 on July 05, 2011, 08:38:28 pm
Can someone please clarify your states property tax rate?  For example if I purchase a 500,000$,  what can I expect my average (I know it varies from county to county) monthly tax burden to be?  Say it was a 200k home but on 10+ acres?  Just wondering if the property tax completely off sets the income and sales tax savings.

Thank you
Title: Re: Property Tax
Post by: Liberty603 on July 05, 2011, 09:22:18 pm
Both property valuations and tax rates do vary widely from town to town (http://www.joeshimkus.com/NH-Tax-Rates.aspx), but as a rough estimate, tax rates seem to average $20 per $1000 of total value. So a $500K property (including home and land) would be about $10K/yr in taxes. Also, property values vary widely as well - i.e. a similar home on 10 acres may cost (and be valued at) $500K in southern NH but only $350K in northern NH.

Just wondering if the property tax completely off sets the income and sales tax savings.

In general, New Hampshire's  state and local tax burden (http://www.taxfoundation.org/research/topic/43.html) is consistently among the nation's lowest.
Title: Re: Property Tax
Post by: freedomroad on July 05, 2011, 09:24:50 pm
Welcome to the forum.  As you can guess, the subject has come up over and over again for years.  I did a forum search and came up with some info that should be helpful to you.

The rate depends on the area.  Areas in NH vary from zero property taxes to 38 per 1000 or so.  In the towns, much of the spending is decided by the voters.  After the voters decide on the spending and other spending is figured in, than the tax rate is figured.  Some people in NH want low property taxes, while some people in NH want high property taxes.  The rates vary greatly from town to town and reflect the will of the voters.

Here is a limited version of property tax info, http://www.nh.gov/revenue/munc_prop/2010PropertyTaxRatesRelatedData.htm

According to this story, NH has the 2nd lowest overall taxes as a percentage of income, http://www.walletpop.com/photos/lowest-state-taxes/

Check out this very recent thread from April 2011, http://forum.freestateproject.org/index.php?topic=23518.0

Here is a thread about this from Sep 2010 http://forum.freestateproject.org/index.php?topic=21634.0

Here is a really nice thread from March 2007 http://forum.freestateproject.org/index.php?topic=13398.0

Here is a thread from 2009 of someone lying by saying that taxes aren't low in NH, http://forum.freestateproject.org/index.php?topic=17310.0

There is also this interesting thread on the NHLA forum about places in NH with very low property tax rates and how to lower your property taxes, http://forum.nhliberty.org/index.php?topic=3378.0
Title: Re: Property Tax
Post by: Trenks on July 11, 2011, 10:31:18 pm
You can always live on a house boat or boondocks an RV
Title: Re: Property Tax
Post by: John Edward Mercier on July 12, 2011, 09:04:26 am
On a house boat... you'll need septic supplied at the dock (which gets taxed as property).
With the RV, you'll need to own or rent the land... which will include the property tax.
Title: Re: Property Tax
Post by: MaineShark on July 12, 2011, 02:11:08 pm
You can always live on a house boat or boondocks an RV

I know someone who does that on Winnipesaukee.  His boat (which is very nice) cost less than a camp in the area, is closer to the water, and his docking fee is less than he would pay in property taxes on a camp.

Joe
Title: Re: Property Tax
Post by: Trenks on July 13, 2011, 02:22:01 pm
You can always live on a house boat or boondocks an RV

I know someone who does that on Winnipesaukee.  His boat (which is very nice) cost less than a camp in the area, is closer to the water, and his docking fee is less than he would pay in property taxes on a camp.

Joe

I figured there was someone doing it. He's not paying property tax. The money he pays for the docking fee may indeed be used to pay property tax but he isn't paying it the owner of the docking fee pays it. I could buy something from one of these agorist vendors and if they live on land and use the money to pay their property tax bill, am I paying property tax? One can avoid paying property tax on water or with the RV but I would agree that no one who participates in the wider economy in any way whatsoever, can avoid the added cost of living that property tax creates.

Even if you live on the sea with a house boat and you buy vegetables from some Voluntaryist, you are affected by the property tax, assuming the Voluntaryist pays it for the land to grow the vegetables.

Unless you jump from one house or piece of land to another every two years as the state confiscates your property for non payment. But you couldn't get a loan to buy the next piece because of your history of 'default'. And if you used cash to buy the properties it would cost a hell of a lot more than if you were to comply with the property tax.

The other way is if you claim a piece of state or federal land and try to live as discreetly as possible. Or if thousands of people claim the land and stand up to the state!  ::)

Or a downtown business district all stand together in non payment.

Otherwise I do think you can avoid direct payment with the house boat or RV. You can get water from rivers using a filter and small pump and you can discharge grey and black water onto select pieces of state land as you move along and rely on natural attenuation. Obviously the guys that live on the sea have another strategy.

Did you guys see that Stossel show about the guy who is raising money to build a city on the sea?
Title: Re: Property Tax
Post by: John Edward Mercier on July 14, 2011, 01:18:13 am
If your house boat is in the water, it will need to be registered with the State.
Though its referenced as 'common property', its never managed in that fashion.
 
Title: Re: Property Tax
Post by: LoveFreedomAndLiberty on July 22, 2011, 06:53:51 pm
Does NH have any:

Homestead Exemption?

Cap on property taxes?
Title: Re: Property Tax
Post by: John Edward Mercier on July 22, 2011, 08:33:24 pm
The State itself... no.
Title: Re: Property Tax
Post by: MaineShark on July 26, 2011, 08:32:31 am
Homestead Exemption?

Not for tax purposes.  http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/rsa/html/xlix/480/480-mrg.htm

Cap on property taxes?

There are a variety of ways that property taxes are limited or capped.  What, in particular, are you looking for?

Joe
Title: Re: Property Tax
Post by: LoveFreedomAndLiberty on July 26, 2011, 11:06:24 am
It would just be nice to know, wherever I bought or built, that the property tax would not go so high, over time, that I would have to sell and move because the property taxes got so high they were out of my budget.

I like the idea of being property tax exempt up to a certain value.
Title: Re: Property Tax
Post by: MaineShark on July 26, 2011, 11:57:01 am
It would just be nice to know, wherever I bought or built, that the property tax would not go so high, over time, that I would have to sell and move because the property taxes got so high they were out of my budget.

That would, indeed, by nice to know.

But there's no way to guarantee it.  Even if that were the law, the legislature could always change the law in the future.

No man’s life, liberty, or property are safe while the legislature is in session.

No law can ever guarantee you anything.  The closest thing possible to a guarantee is a paradigm shift in the society such that the behavior in question (eg, taxing property) is not favored by any large percentage of the population.  That's why you will often hear folks say that libertarianism is not merely a political philosophy, but an overall philosophy of human organization, which happens to have (as a small subset) political implications.  Any political victory, now, can be undone tomorrow.  Only by changing the way folks think about how they interact, can these victories become relatively solid.

Joe
Title: Re: Property Tax
Post by: LoveFreedomAndLiberty on July 26, 2011, 12:27:40 pm
It would just be nice to know, wherever I bought or built, that the property tax would not go so high, over time, that I would have to sell and move because the property taxes got so high they were out of my budget.

That would, indeed, by nice to know.

But there's no way to guarantee it.  Even if that were the law, the legislature could always change the law in the future.

No man’s life, liberty, or property are safe while the legislature is in session.

No law can ever guarantee you anything. 

Joe

Agree. 

Since law is all we have for now, I would like homestead exemption at a minimum, or at least a cap that it can not go above a certain amount. 

I don't want property tax at all in my perfect world.

It's a good thing I was sitting when some people told me what they pay in property tax.
Title: Re: Property Tax
Post by: MaineShark on July 26, 2011, 12:56:10 pm
Agree. 

Since law is all we have for now, I would like homestead exemption at a minimum, or at least a cap that it can not go above a certain amount.

They're not going to give you either.  Especially these days, when inflation is increasing so rapidly.  The exemption would soon be meaningless, as "$100k" would be a trivial amount of money.  And there's no way they would create a fixed cap, as they know that inflation will push them beyond that too quickly.

I don't want property tax at all in my perfect world.

It's a good thing I was sitting when some people told me what they pay in property tax.

Less than what folks pay in taxes, other places.  It's just all in one bill, not spread out where its invisible.  The fact that NH residents see it twice a year goes a long way to keeping spending down, relative to other places.

Joe
Title: Re: Property Tax
Post by: John Edward Mercier on July 26, 2011, 09:55:01 pm
Not to mention that exemptions transfer tax to others.
If NH removed all exemptions/etc., it would actually act as a rate cap.
Title: Re: Property Tax
Post by: LoveFreedomAndLiberty on August 04, 2011, 04:31:13 pm
I prefer no taxes for anyone. 

However, if I HAD to choose, I would rather pay a fixed sales tax than a property tax.  Property/Shelter seems more like necessity and a t.v. seems more like a choice.  I have to have shelter (so I must pay property tax) but I don't have to buy a t.v.(pay sales tax).

Just my opinion.
Title: Re: Property Tax
Post by: MaineShark on August 04, 2011, 05:15:07 pm
However, if I HAD to choose, I would rather pay a fixed sales tax than a property tax.  Property/Shelter seems more like necessity and a t.v. seems more like a choice.  I have to have shelter (so I must pay property tax) but I don't have to buy a t.v.(pay sales tax).

On the flip side, a sales tax is much more of an imposition, from an "interference in folks' lives" standpoint.

Right now, if I want to go into business, I just hang out a sign and I'm able to move forward.  If there were a sales tax, every single business would have to register with the State, have to report all sales, be subject to audits to make sure that they are in compliance, etc.  It would spell the end of most small businesses in NH.  We'd be left with little other than the big corporate businesses.

A property tax offers the least level of interference in the lives of the taxpayers.  The value of the property really isn't any secret.  But, the issues that you noted, also apply.

All taxes are bad ideas, of course.  Different schemes have different sets of drawbacks.

Joe
Title: Re: Property Tax
Post by: LoveFreedomAndLiberty on August 04, 2011, 05:44:22 pm
I was only looking at the issue on a personal level and not a business level.  It is hard for me to wrap my head around paying thousands of dollars in property taxes just to continue to live in a house/on property.  I can see why it would be a real headache and problem for business owners from what you said above.  No taxes is best, but I am curious about how realistic no taxes will ever be in my lifetime.

When I think about paying $10,000 annually in property tax.....  It just seems like a lot to come up with for some families/people.  What if someone only makes minimum wage?
Title: Re: Property Tax
Post by: MaineShark on August 04, 2011, 06:00:55 pm
The number I've heard is approximately $2500 per capita.

Most folks proposing flat sales taxes tend to propose taxes in the 10-15% range.  So, someone spending $17k-25k per year would equal the property tax in NH.

Since property taxes are actually paid as a lump sum, they are easier to get folks worked-up about, in trying to keep them down.  Sales taxes are a few cents or a few dollars at a time, many times over, so they sneak under the public consciousness, and small changes in the tax rate are not met with as much opposition.

Last ballot I saw, on the other hand, actually listed what impact each spending item would have on the tax rate.  Eg, "if this item passes, you will have to pay $2 more per thousand next year."  Makes it much easier to keep spending relatively in-check.

We had a warrant article, here in Grafton, to have the tax bills delivered a week before the town election.  That would have been fun...

Joe
Title: Re: Property Tax
Post by: LoveFreedomAndLiberty on August 04, 2011, 06:25:57 pm
Some families might grow their own food, or not purchase non-essential items keeping their sales tax to a minimum.  So, maybe they might only pay a few hundred dollars in sales tax annually.  I guess it seems easier to come up with $7 in sales tax (on a $70 purchase) each time someone chooses to make a purchase than $10,000 in a lump sum.

Title: Re: Property Tax
Post by: WendellBerry on August 04, 2011, 07:47:02 pm
Quote
The value of the property really isn't any secret.

A tax solely on locational value would be the best because it would be the least intrusive  - no one has to enter any buildings.

No one would be punished for their efforts...locational value is socially created - by definition, not part of the locational owner's efforts.
Title: Re: Property Tax
Post by: ny2nh on August 04, 2011, 07:47:21 pm
You can see the various assessments on properties in these towns at http://www.visionappraisal.com/databases/nh/index.htm

Then you can see the total property tax per $1000 of assessed value here: http://www.nh.gov/revenue/munc_prop/2010PropertyTaxRatesRelatedData.htm


$10,000 in property taxes IS a lot - I agree. But I am not sure you would have an assessment of $500,000 either.
Title: Re: Property Tax
Post by: Trenks on August 04, 2011, 09:40:11 pm
Why don't we just build a monastery?
Title: Re: Property Tax
Post by: MaineShark on August 04, 2011, 09:46:49 pm
Some families might grow their own food, or not purchase non-essential items keeping their sales tax to a minimum.  So, maybe they might only pay a few hundred dollars in sales tax annually.  I guess it seems easier to come up with $7 in sales tax (on a $70 purchase) each time someone chooses to make a purchase than $10,000 in a lump sum.

Indeed.  Making it easy to pay taxes, however, is a sure way to get higher and higher taxes.  The reason NH is at the bottom in overall tax burden, is because the largest of the taxes here is a difficult tax to pay, so folks tend not to support higher taxes.

Quote
The value of the property really isn't any secret.
A tax solely on locational value would be the best because it would be the least intrusive  - no one has to enter any buildings.

No one would be punished for their efforts...locational value is socially created - by definition, not part of the locational owner's efforts.

I've no interest in your flawed philosophy, but as a practical matter, I would agree that a tax on the land value, alone, would be less intrusive.  I would support that change, as it would enhance privacy.

Joe
Title: Re: Property Tax
Post by: WendellBerry on August 05, 2011, 05:41:12 am
Quote
I would agree that a tax on the land value, alone, would be less intrusive.  I would support that change, as it would enhance privacy.

good to hear...
Title: Re: Property Tax
Post by: Pat McCotter on August 05, 2011, 10:36:48 am
Some families might grow their own food, or not purchase non-essential items keeping their sales tax to a minimum.  So, maybe they might only pay a few hundred dollars in sales tax annually.  I guess it seems easier to come up with $7 in sales tax (on a $70 purchase) each time someone chooses to make a purchase than $10,000 in a lump sum.

Indeed.  Making it easy to pay taxes, however, is a sure way to get higher and higher taxes.  The reason NH is at the bottom in overall tax burden, is because the largest of the taxes here is a difficult tax to pay, so folks tend not to support higher taxes.

...
Joe

When it comes to property taxes, the emphasis should be on reducing spending, not taxes. What the town meeting decides to spend is what determines the needed tax revenue.
Title: Re: Property Tax
Post by: John Edward Mercier on August 05, 2011, 01:11:41 pm
Actually its four parts... and its most likely the school district rate that will be the highest.
Title: Re: Property Tax
Post by: Pat McCotter on August 05, 2011, 05:32:29 pm
Actually its four parts... and its most likely the school district rate that will be the highest.


Two are town and school. What are the other two?
Title: Re: Property Tax
Post by: Porcupine Realtor on August 05, 2011, 10:20:32 pm
Other two are county and state IIRC. They are minimal compared to school and town budgets.
Title: Re: Property Tax
Post by: Pat McCotter on August 06, 2011, 08:35:43 am
Other two are county and state IIRC. They are minimal compared to school and town budgets.

DOH! :-[ Thanks John.
Title: Re: Property Tax
Post by: LoveFreedomAndLiberty on September 29, 2011, 10:52:49 am
The topic of property tax in New Hampshire was discussed on Free Talk Live on September 28 a little bit.  I was glad this topic was raised for discussion since the cost of the property tax in NH is a concern for me.   

I really don't like that if I don't pay property tax on land or a house I purchased that it can be taken away.  I feel once I purchase the property/home that should be the end of fees and cost (other than the maintenance, improvements I choose to do).  Property tax almost kinda seems like a punishment for owning property, in my opinion/feelings.   

I wonder if anyone has ever been forced out of their home, off of their property, or become homeless due to having someone (creditor, government, etc) take their home away?

I still would prefer no taxes, but if I must pay something on an individual/family level, I prefer sales tax.  I can buy a cow to prevent having to buy milk, or grow vegetables myself to prevent buying them, and therefore limit what I contribute to sales tax.  A sales tax seems to put choice in my hands a little more, in my opinion.
Title: Re: Property Tax
Post by: John Edward Mercier on September 29, 2011, 11:50:03 am
Its something you agree to when you purchase.

Property taxes are traditional based on all inhabitants paying them either directly or through rent... and all inhabitants having their Rights secured. Prior to the change, property taxes used to pay for everything... and included assessment of all property including livestock.

The State actually functions off from sales and income taxes... and uses those to subsidize local decisions.

Homes and other property can always be removed by a creditor... except where the State intervenes on bankruptcy laws.
As for losing a home to property tax... its possible; but not likely. The property tax codes have a specific protection for those unable to afford them.
Title: Re: Property Tax
Post by: WendellBerry on September 29, 2011, 12:10:58 pm
Quote
A sales tax seems to put choice in my hands a little more, in my opinion.

A sales tax and income tax are specific taxes on one's labor.

Quote
Property taxes are traditional based on all inhabitants paying them either directly or through rent...

There is a way to devise property taxes so that they can not be passed onto renters - by shifting off of capital (buildings) and purely onto the unimproved (no labor involved) locational value which is socially created.

Now that would be libertopia for renters...no income, no sales, no property taxes - EQUAL freedom!
Title: Re: Property Tax
Post by: freedomroad on September 29, 2011, 01:08:56 pm
The topic of property tax in New Hampshire was discussed on Free Talk Live on September 28 a little bit.  I was glad this topic was raised for discussion since the cost of the property tax in NH is a concern for me.   

I really don't like that if I don't pay property tax on land or a house I purchased that it can be taken away.  I feel once I purchase the property/home that should be the end of fees and cost (other than the maintenance, improvements I choose to do).  Property tax almost kinda seems like a punishment for owning property, in my opinion/feelings.   

I wonder if anyone has ever been forced out of their home, off of their property, or become homeless due to having someone (creditor, government, etc) take their home away?

I still would prefer no taxes, but if I must pay something on an individual/family level, I prefer sales tax.  I can buy a cow to prevent having to buy milk, or grow vegetables myself to prevent buying them, and therefore limit what I contribute to sales tax.  A sales tax seems to put choice in my hands a little more, in my opinion.

If it was a discussion on FTL, likely it wasn't anywhere near as informative as the discussion on this thread.

If you don't want to pay property taxes in NH, you don't have to.  Just move to a community where home owners don't have to pay property taxes and continue to encourage the community to function in that way.

If you want to pay very little property taxes in NH, either move to a community where people generally pay very little property taxes or own taxable property of very low value.

The great thing about moving to NH is that you are moving to NH.  You get to decide where in NH you want to live.  You get to decide how you want to live (home, trailer, community housing, camper, renter and so on.)

Another option is renting.  For example, I rent a single room.  My total rent for a year is somewhere around 3300 a year, which is the going market rate for such a room.  My estimated total property taxes paid during the year, I don't know, maybe 10% - 15% percent of that amount.  So my property taxes for a year are $450 give or take $200.  I don't consider that unreasonable considering all of the government services I get (roads, fire protection, city hall, sidewalks... even if I may not want them.)  I live in one of the higher property tax communities in NH.

As for a sales tax, a state general sales tax would destroy the economy of NH and cause chaos.  It's a very unpopular idea.  NH is currently one of 4 states that doesn't have a general sales tax or allow localities to create one (NH, DE, MT, OR.)  That is a huge advantage compared to the surrounding states (NY, ME, VT, MA, CT, RI.)  People plan shopping trips to or though NH months in advance from all of those states.
Title: Re: Property Tax
Post by: WendellBerry on September 29, 2011, 01:22:20 pm
Quote
Another option is renting.  For example, I rent a single room.  My total rent for a year is somewhere around 3300 a year, which is the going market rate for such a room.  My estimated total property taxes paid during the year, I don't know, maybe 10% - 15% percent of that amount.  So my property taxes for a year are $450 give or take $200.  I don't consider that unreasonable considering all of the government services I get (roads, fire protection, city hall, sidewalks... even if I may not want them.)

There would be a way to advocating paying zero in property taxes via renting...

Just shift property taxes off of buildings and fully onto locational values.

What happens?

The supply of housing increases (no disincentive to build) and as a result, your rent goes down 10-15%, so your landlord can't pass any property tax along.
Title: Re: Property Tax
Post by: LoveFreedomAndLiberty on September 29, 2011, 02:03:56 pm
I am not endorsing a sales tax.  I don't want ANY taxes.  If taxes are going to be forced upon me,  I just feel that I can limit my sales tax by buying less.  I can't make my property tax go down because other people decide the value of home/property and other people decide how much I should pay the government to continue living on that property.  So, it feels like other people still have too much control and input in my life and pursuit of happiness.

Good point about shoppers and no sales tax.  Ultimately, I would like to see no taxes.  I wonder if a private company could operate a public bus, fire department, etc. at a lower cost?

Another issue, paying $5,000 on a $250,000 (just a guess) property just seems out of budget for some people.

What if someone just wants to live on a private farm and they live off the land.....they might be forced to go work a job outside of the home just to pay property tax?  Force in any capacity (economic, etc.) never equals freedom, in my opinion.  NH does seem to be more interested in freedom and that is why it is attracting so many freedom lovers.

Where are the specific places with NO or low property tax in NH?  Do those places have a homeowner's association?  Is it rural, urban, suburban?
Title: Re: Property Tax
Post by: John Edward Mercier on September 29, 2011, 02:48:16 pm
Usually an HOA will cost you more.
Larger parcels of land have the ability to enter Current Use... so there is an offset. Farming is a business... so PT is considered a business expense by them.

I guess it depends on size and where your looking. But basically home/land values adjust to local income levels... and currently are still adjusting downward.

My town doesn't have a bus... and the fire department has the COMSTAR fund, which means it operates like a hybrid private company.

Title: Re: Property Tax
Post by: WendellBerry on September 29, 2011, 02:50:13 pm
Quote
What if someone just wants to live on a private farm and they live off the land.....they might be forced to go work a job outside of the home just to pay property tax?

Locational values are skewed tremendously by the scarcity of housing in urban areas imposed by disincentives and by public infrastructure to rural areas.

Make the changes I suggest and there will be locations in rural areas now that have value, that will lose value and make it much more likely that you can reasonably homestead...
Title: Re: Property Tax
Post by: John Edward Mercier on September 29, 2011, 03:05:42 pm
Quote
A sales tax seems to put choice in my hands a little more, in my opinion.

A sales tax and income tax are specific taxes on one's labor.

Quote
Property taxes are traditional based on all inhabitants paying them either directly or through rent...

There is a way to devise property taxes so that they can not be passed onto renters - by shifting off of capital (buildings) and purely onto the unimproved (no labor involved) locational value which is socially created.

Now that would be libertopia for renters...no income, no sales, no property taxes - EQUAL freedom!
They wouldn't have 'skin in the game' as far as voting... and the landlords would detain the excess savings. Renters aren't taxed directly.

Quote
What if someone just wants to live on a private farm and they live off the land.....they might be forced to go work a job outside of the home just to pay property tax?

Locational values are skewed tremendously by the scarcity of housing in urban areas imposed by disincentives and by public infrastructure to rural areas.

Make the changes I suggest and there will be locations in rural areas now that have value, that will lose value and make it much more likely that you can reasonably homestead...
Obviously theoretical.
Title: Re: Property Tax
Post by: freedomroad on September 29, 2011, 03:13:03 pm
I am not endorsing a sales tax.  I don't want ANY taxes.

That sounds nice.  I'll help you to work towards lower taxes in NH.

Quote
I can't make my property tax go down because other people decide the value of home/property and other people decide how much I should pay the government to continue living on that property.

As I tried to explain in my previous post, you can.

Quote
I wonder if a private company could operate a public bus, fire department, etc. at a lower cost?

There are private buses in NH.  There is at least one private fire department.  Most of the fire departments are volunteer.  Most public buses loss money so they could be privatized but the price of a ride may go up or who knows, maybe more than double in some cases.  I like to deal more with the here and now than what is possible to do if I was a mayor, though.  There, I haven't put much thought into that and don't plan to unless it becomes a changeable issue.

Quote
What if someone just wants to live on a private farm and they live off the land.....they might be forced to go work a job outside of the home just to pay property tax?


Not if you are a good farmer.  Farm land in NH is taxed differently.

Quote
Where are the specific places with NO or low property tax in NH?  Do those places have a homeowner's association?  Is it rural, urban, suburban?


They are extremely rural areas.  Some of the low/no property rate tax places in NH have associations where you end up paying substantial fees.

I posted more about them earlier.  Feel free to review that post, http://forum.freestateproject.org/index.php?topic=24037.msg267607#msg267607
Title: Re: Property Tax
Post by: time4liberty on September 30, 2011, 07:15:40 pm
Its something you agree to when you purchase.

Um, no. Perhaps you'd also say that when folks started businesses in Chicago they "agreed" to pay al capone's "protection" racket, or that if you live in ms13 gang territory you "agree" to have your house shot up?

Property taxes are extortion, plain and simple. If you own a house and sell it to me, at no point does the state of nh own it, nor do they have any right to demand money, on threat of stealing it.

I also share the preference for sales taxes -- but overall, taxes are far lower in nh than elsewhere. Most other places have property tax AND incone/sales tax.
Title: Re: Property Tax
Post by: time4liberty on September 30, 2011, 07:20:45 pm
Quote
Another option is renting.  For example, I rent a single room.  My total rent for a year is somewhere around 3300 a year, which is the going market rate for such a room.  My estimated total property taxes paid during the year, I don't know, maybe 10% - 15% percent of that amount.  So my property taxes for a year are $450 give or take $200.  I don't consider that unreasonable considering all of the government services I get (roads, fire protection, city hall, sidewalks... even if I may not want them.)

There would be a way to advocating paying zero in property taxes via renting...

Just shift property taxes off of buildings and fully onto locational values.

What happens?

The supply of housing increases (no disincentive to build) and as a result, your rent goes down 10-15%, so your landlord can't pass any property tax along.

This certainly would increase construction, and housing supply, but prices would still be higher than if no tax existed, and the cost is still being passed on. It would be a huge boon to millionaires with mansions, and a disaster for farmers, loggers, etc. The boon to rich folks is fine with me, but the farmers getting it in the shorts part, not so much.
Title: Re: Property Tax
Post by: John Edward Mercier on September 30, 2011, 09:45:53 pm
Its something you agree to when you purchase.

Um, no. Perhaps you'd also say that when folks started businesses in Chicago they "agreed" to pay al capone's "protection" racket, or that if you live in ms13 gang territory you "agree" to have your house shot up?

Property taxes are extortion, plain and simple. If you own a house and sell it to me, at no point does the state of nh own it, nor do they have any right to demand money, on threat of stealing it.

I also share the preference for sales taxes -- but overall, taxes are far lower in nh than elsewhere. Most other places have property tax AND incone/sales tax.
Um, Yes. Its one of the contractual items of the transfer of deed.
Title: Re: Property Tax
Post by: time4liberty on October 03, 2011, 08:09:19 am
Quote
Um, Yes. Its one of the contractual items of the transfer of deed.

And if I try to transfer a deed without that "contractual item", the government will not only immediately consider my ownership illegitimate, but will prosecute me if I try to defend said ownership.

Perhaps this will help you, John. Imagine that a private company started acting the way the state does. Suppose, in some small town, Wal-mart decided that they had the sole right to define property ownership. If anyone claimed to own anything without sending wal-mart cash on a regular basis, they'd send men with guns to take the property, and hand it to someone who would pay them. If anyone tried to voluntarily trade their property without making the buyer "agree" to send walmart cash both immediately and on an ongoing basis, walmart would refuse to recognize the new owner, and would send their men after both the old and new owners. If the new owner tried to defend their property, wal-mart would lock them in a cell, and take the property.

Is that behavior cool with you John? Would you say that in this case, Wal-mart is acting like they own the whole town? I would.
Title: Re: Property Tax
Post by: John Edward Mercier on October 03, 2011, 06:00:06 pm
Because the seller can not remove that item... without third party acceptance.
The third party was given that particular authority by a previous owner.
You would need to purchase alloidal title.

And your case doens't make historical sense.

Its done under HOAs all the time.
Title: Re: Property Tax
Post by: time4liberty on October 03, 2011, 10:48:57 pm
Because the seller can not remove that item... without third party acceptance.
The third party was given that particular authority by a previous owner.

Actually, it was never "given", it was historically, and is currently, taken by force.

You would need to purchase alloidal title.
So your position is that the federal government owns all of the land in the country, and the state government owns all of the land in the state -- we're all serfs of state and federal bureaucrats?

Do tell, how did state bureacrats legitimately acquire all this land? I'm really dying to hear it. Perhaps they worked overtime at mcdonalds? Did the king of England own it all too, in his day?
And your case doens't make historical sense.

What case? I just asked if you'd be ok with walmart trying the same scheme. We could add a bit about walmart "granting" large chunks of land that they never owned in the first place to well connected individuals, who then go kill the actual residents...

HOAs are not always done legitimately either, but that's a much subtler point. Contracts with dead people are null.
Title: Re: Property Tax
Post by: John Edward Mercier on October 04, 2011, 03:30:08 am
It was only 'taken by force' from the French & Indians.
It was given consent by the early landowners... because the French & Indians (or more likely the British at that time) would re-take it.

The federal government has specific limitation set upon it. Its actually supposed to 'own' very little land... and was not supposed to finance the acquisition of land outside stated purpose.

And no the 'contract' with the dead person is not null. Its embedded in future contracts.
Hence why easements, restrictions, etc... remain. Only the third party can remove them.

Title: Re: Property Tax
Post by: time4liberty on October 04, 2011, 10:14:57 am
It was only 'taken by force' from the French & Indians.

Why the quotes? Is that not an accurate description?

It was given consent by the early landowners... because the French & Indians (or more likely the British at that time) would re-take it.

Actually, less than 14k out of 3 million residents of the us voted for 'representatives' to the constitutional convention -- who then claimed the right to jam their will down everyone else's throats (as shown, for example, in the whiskey rebellion).

Nh was ruled by britian's puppets in MA, until king Charles separated it. The constitutional congress recommended that nh form a civil government, at which point reps were elected (majority of a minority rules), who then decided on a constitution, which the people of nh never even got a chance to vote on directly.
The federal government has specific limitation set upon it. Its actually supposed to 'own' very little land... and was not supposed to finance the acquisition of land outside stated purpose.

As far as I can tell, they have no meaningful limitations on their power at all.
And no the 'contract' with the dead person is not null. Its embedded in future contracts.

I can't make a legally binding decision, for example, that all the land I own shall never be developed for the rest of eternity, simply by making the person I give it to sign a contract that they won't develop it, and will require future owners to do the same. The world belongs to the living.
Title: Re: Property Tax
Post by: Bazil on October 04, 2011, 10:46:54 am
There is a way to live in NH, not squat and pay no property tax.  I did for two years.  Rent from the state government.  I rented a house (actually two houses consecutively) own by the state of NH.  The state actually made a pretty good land lord, to my surprise, very hands off.
Title: Re: Property Tax
Post by: LoveFreedomAndLiberty on October 04, 2011, 01:05:00 pm
Usually an HOA will cost you more.
Larger parcels of land have the ability to enter Current Use... so there is an offset. Farming is a business... so PT is considered a business expense by them.

I guess it depends on size and where your looking. But basically home/land values adjust to local income levels... and currently are still adjusting downward.

My town doesn't have a bus... and the fire department has the COMSTAR fund, which means it operates like a hybrid private company.



Farming is always considered a business?  Even if a family is only growing the food for themselves?  If a family just wants to live an independent, off the grid lifestyle, they would be subject to the farming laws and taxes? 
Title: Re: Property Tax
Post by: Denis Goddard on October 04, 2011, 01:48:28 pm
Even if a family is only growing the food for themselves?  If a family just wants to live an independent, off the grid lifestyle, they would be subject to the farming laws and taxes?  
My understanding is that the answer is "yes", and it's one of the reasons I am an anarchist.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wickard_v._Filburn
Quote
A farmer, Roscoe Filburn, was growing wheat for on-farm consumption.[...] Filburn was ordered to destroy his crops and pay a fine, even though he was producing the excess wheat for his own use and had no intention of selling it.
Title: Re: Property Tax
Post by: rossby on October 04, 2011, 03:55:12 pm
Even if a family is only growing the food for themselves?  If a family just wants to live an independent, off the grid lifestyle, they would be subject to the farming laws and taxes?  
My understanding is that the answer is "yes", and it's one of the reasons I am an anarchist.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wickard_v._Filburn
Quote
A farmer, Roscoe Filburn, was growing wheat for on-farm consumption.[...] Filburn was ordered to destroy his crops and pay a fine, even though he was producing the excess wheat for his own use and had no intention of selling it.

There's an inconvenient fact that a lot of people overlook when they talk about Wickard v. Filburn. This wasn't a case of just a random farmer minding his own business having his property taken from him. This was a case of the farmer on 640 acres trying to double dip. This Act did not apply to farms under 15 acres.

Filburn participated in this federal program because he had a large farm. He then tried to grow more than his allotment. And he got caught. But Filburn is often quoted removed from its context. And this case has been a monster ever since. Courts finding new and improved governmental powers lurking where it suits their needs...

But really, Filburn's problem was his argument. It was junk. He never claimed his excess wheat was for "personal consumption". And if it was, consider this: he was allotted 11.1 acres, and planted 23. Yes. "Personal consumption" indeed.


I do not here argue against the economic insanity of destroying goods to keep prices high...
Title: Re: Property Tax
Post by: LoveFreedomAndLiberty on October 04, 2011, 04:10:51 pm
Even if a family is only growing the food for themselves?  If a family just wants to live an independent, off the grid lifestyle, they would be subject to the farming laws and taxes?  
My understanding is that the answer is "yes", and it's one of the reasons I am an anarchist.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wickard_v._Filburn
Quote
A farmer, Roscoe Filburn, was growing wheat for on-farm consumption.[...] Filburn was ordered to destroy his crops and pay a fine, even though he was producing the excess wheat for his own use and had no intention of selling it.

There's an inconvenient fact that a lot of people overlook when they talk about Wickard v. Filburn. This wasn't a case of just a random farmer minding his own business having his property taken from him. This was a case of the farmer on 640 acres trying to double dip. This Act did not apply to farms under 15 acres.

Filburn participated in this federal program because he had a large farm. He then tried to grow more than his allotment. And he got caught. But Filburn is often quoted removed from its context. And this case has been a monster ever since. Courts finding new and improved governmental powers lurking where it suits their needs...

But really, Filburn's problem was his argument. It was junk. He never claimed his excess wheat was for "personal consumption". And if it was, consider this: he was allotted 11.1 acres, and planted 23. Yes. "Personal consumption" indeed.

I do not here argue against the economic insanity of destroying goods to keep prices high...

What I am talking about is under 15 acres.  I have heard of some families choosing to live a more back to basics lifestyle.  Therefore, they grow most of their own food (due to food costs, personal budgets, organic desires, etc.).  Only the family consumes the food grown in their gardens in this case. 

Moving is a lot of work.   If someone's vegetable garden (even if they grow enough to can) is subject to taxation, that might be a deciding factor on the topic of moving or not moving somewhere.
Title: Re: Property Tax
Post by: Denis Goddard on October 04, 2011, 07:02:48 pm
If someone's vegetable garden (even if they grow enough to can) is subject to taxation
I don't believe a personal vegetable garden is subject to any NH taxes


But then again, IANAL
Title: Re: Property Tax
Post by: John Edward Mercier on October 04, 2011, 11:12:25 pm
None directly on the growth or commerce.
Title: Re: Property Tax
Post by: John Edward Mercier on October 04, 2011, 11:24:38 pm
time4liberty...

Accurate in the sense that it was actually taken... and by real force. Men, women, and children were killed... not simply allowed to accept a new government.

And the federal government doesn't have anything to do with the property tax.
Property taxes are majority made up of local municipal decisions... and the municipalities and land within them are subject to being cojoined and ceded continuously.

At the State level... historically the landowners gave up their Crown Granted alloidal titles for State protection from Britain.
Redcoats were only a short distance north of NY, NH, and Massachussets...
And during the War of 1812... these three nearly ceded from the Union and joined Canada.

The NH Constitution was voted on by freeholders... people that actually owned property... at the time only a freeholder could vote.
Title: Re: Property Tax
Post by: time4liberty on October 05, 2011, 09:21:43 am
"allowed to accept" a new group of men extorting money and arbitrary obedience from them on threat of violence (and death, in many cases). Well you certainly have a nice way of euphamising things, mr. Mercier.
Title: Re: Property Tax
Post by: weatherford on November 27, 2011, 12:42:26 pm

I also share the preference for sales taxes -- but overall, taxes are far lower in nh than elsewhere. Most other places have property tax AND incone/sales tax.

And every state I know that has started sales and/or income taxes to "relieve the burden of property taxes" (along with the promise to abolish them) has failed miserably!