Free State Project Forum

FSP Community => FSP Website / Technical Issues => Topic started by: Alex Libman on May 27, 2011, 09:45:35 pm

Title: Ghost #000001 of Andvari's "Warning: Nazi-style Censorship at FSP" thread
Post by: Alex Libman on May 27, 2011, 09:45:35 pm
From a deleted thread (http://forum.freestateproject.org/index.php?topic=23798) by Andvari (http://forum.freestateproject.org/index.php?action=profile;u=27166), posted tonight at 9:02:19 pm:

Quote
[Subject:  "Warning: Nazi-style Censorship at FSP"]

If you're against abortion, eugenics and who knows what else....be prepared for censorship.
It just happened to me, just giving you a heads up.


I typed a little reply before finding out that thread is "missing or off limits" to me, so I'll post it here instead:

(1)  I am against abortion.  I am also against prohibition, as discussed elsewhere (http://bbs.freetalklive.com/the-polling-pit/fetal-'right-to-free-exit'/).

(2)  Free State Project is a broad and decentralized movement.  It's like saying "I am being censored by carbon-based life-forms" - are all carbon-based life-forms then equally to blame?  You have to be more specific about who is doing what. 

(3)  Is there an Andvari State Project?  Maybe there should be.

Title: Re: Ghost #000001 of Andvari's "Warning: Nazi-style Censorship at FSP" thread
Post by: Andvari on May 28, 2011, 11:04:04 am
You didn't get the memo ? The FSP dictators are in control. Shut down free speech. Shut down dissenters. In a way it's good, the truth leaks out for ppl to see.

You think it's a coincidence all the moderators are zealot left-wingers ? Nah, their minions lobby to get them in there. And just like the US Govt, the FIX is in.

[...]

And dont kid yourself, it aint just free speech...if they had the power, they'd tell you exactly what you can and cant do on your property. They use capitalism strictly as a front.
Title: Re: Ghost #000001 of Andvari's "Warning: Nazi-style Censorship at FSP" thread
Post by: MaineShark on May 28, 2011, 01:58:40 pm
Or, it's the fact that you were blatantly violating the forum rules.

But I guess you only care about respecting private property when it suits you, eh?

FYI, I think both you and Skeptikos are basically twins.  And look at that, neither of you can stand me.  That's so surprising...  It's almost like you are just different faces of the same, exact set of beliefs.

Joe
Title: Re: Ghost #000001 of Andvari's "Warning: Nazi-style Censorship at FSP" thread
Post by: Alex Libman on May 28, 2011, 04:53:21 pm
Nah, I just like ghost threads.


[...]  And look at that, neither of you can stand me.  [...]

MaineShark, I have a confession to make...   ::blush::

I can stand you.   I can stand you very much.   ;)
Title: Re: Ghost #000001 of Andvari's "Warning: Nazi-style Censorship at FSP" thread
Post by: Andvari on May 28, 2011, 05:35:29 pm
Or, it's the fact that you were blatantly violating the forum rules.

But I guess you only care about respecting private property when it suits you, eh?

FYI, I think both you and Skeptikos are basically twins.  And look at that, neither of you can stand me.  That's so surprising...  It's almost like you are just different faces of the same, exact set of beliefs.

Joe

Why do you keep following me around on every thread. Go away, i dont associate with Nazis. It's bizi saturday anyway, arent you supposed to be helping out at an abortion death shop.
Title: Re: Ghost #000001 of Andvari's "Warning: Nazi-style Censorship at FSP" thread
Post by: Alex Libman on May 28, 2011, 06:32:01 pm
Why are you still fighting over the abortion issue?  This is the 21st century, damn it!  Alex Libman effectively ended the abortion debate back in 1997!    >:D

The fetus is a "potential Rational Economic Actor", and has the same Natural Rights as a physically autonomous baby.  However, the fetus does not own the mother's body, nor does any person have any "positive right" to use another person's body against her will, even for one's own survival.  A mother (or a host of a parasitic twin (http://bbs.freetalklive.com/hijack-free-zone/a-better-%27two-heads-are-better-than-one%27-thread!/)) therefore has the Right to "evict" the unwanted fetus / parasite, and if there currently are no possible means of accomplishing this eviction without killing it then the killing is legally (but not necessarily morally) justified.  Those logically-indisputable fact should have ended all prohibitionist arguments a long, long time ago.


In a more civilized society, the number of abortions would gradually approach zero due to:

(1)  Fool-proof contraception technologies and medical innovations.

(2)  Popularization of "sex contracts (http://bbs.freetalklive.com/index.php?topic=21387)" to explicitly assign responsibility.

(3)  Super-abundance of charity willing to help the would-be mother and child.

(4)  Possible technology to transplant the fetus (http://bbs.freetalklive.com/the-polling-pit/fetal-%27right-to-free-exit%27/) from an unwilling mother to a willing one, or to an artificial womb.

(5)  Use of non-violent social pressure instead of government force to ostracize abortionists.

If only all those idiots protesting in front of abortion clinics would devote their time, money, and energy to scientific research and charity instead, all of those things could come about a lot sooner.
Title: Re: Ghost #000001 of Andvari's "Warning: Nazi-style Censorship at FSP" thread
Post by: Andvari on May 28, 2011, 06:59:14 pm
Nah. The only time anyone should ever mention 'choice' is when talkin about the choice to have sex or not. 

You are FORCING a baby into this world. That's an iniation of force ! The baby did not ask to be brought in, had no say in the matter, and is defensless.

That's like saying i can forcefully drag a peaceful person on to my property. Tie him down. Blow his brains apart. Then claim he invaded my property.

It's common sense, something psychotic mass murderers lack.
Title: Re: Ghost #000001 of Andvari's "Warning: Nazi-style Censorship at FSP" thread
Post by: MaineShark on May 28, 2011, 07:05:00 pm
Why do you keep following me around on every thread.

Are you completely delusional?

Go away, i dont associate with Nazis.

Odd, given how much you have in common with them.  You're all about telling others what they can and cannot do with their own bodies, based upon your own religious beliefs.  As were they.

You're anti-gay and anti-choice, as were they (Reichszentrale zur Bekämpfung der Homosexualität und Abtreibung, anyone?).

Seems like you would get along swimmingly with them...

It's bizi saturday anyway, arent you supposed to be helping out at an abortion death shop.

What's a "bizi," pray tell?

And no, I wouldn't help out at an abortion clinic.  It's contrary to my principles.  I expect having principles isn't something you can understand.

Joe
Title: Re: Ghost #000001 of Andvari's "Warning: Nazi-style Censorship at FSP" thread
Post by: Alex Libman on May 28, 2011, 08:40:59 pm
Nah. The only time anyone should ever mention 'choice' is when talkin about the choice to have sex or not.

No, people have continuous freedom of choice over their property, including their own body, unless they signed an explicit contract that limits their freedom.  You can argue that it is immoral for people to have unprotected sex and then have an abortion, and I'll agree with you, but there is no logical basis for making it illegal.


You are FORCING a baby into this world. That's an iniation of force !
The baby did not ask to be brought in, had no say in the matter, and is defensless.

I wouldn't exactly describe the phenomenon of DeoxyriboNucleic Acid that results in the creation of a distinct human as "force".  It is theoretically possible to "forcefully" create a large quantity of unique zygotes / fetii inside a cell culture dish (hundreds of thousands of oocytes can be extracted from a single female, only a few hundred of which are naturally released as eggs), but most pregnancies are a result of less deliberate circumstances.  There are other plausible motives for which a penis can venture near a vagina.   >:D

Defenseless though they may be, those little cells are potential Rational Economic Actors only to the extent that someone is willing to incubate them.  Life doesn't owe anyone a free ride.


That's like saying i can forcefully drag a peaceful person on to my property.
Tie him down. Blow his brains apart. Then claim he invaded my property.

A free society emerges along with certain prerequisite levels of technology - we cannot all have Rights if we're cavemen who can barely communicate with each-other.  Rights are not based on pity, wishful thinking, nor any other emotion!  They are a ruthless economic phenomenon that comes about when benefits of cooperation (aka non-violent competition) begin to constitute a competitive advantage.

Regarding your "abduct, murder, claim self-defense" scenario...  There is a natural cost to legitimate ownership of property, which is the cost of securing it.  Modern technology makes it possible to record objective evidence to establish what happened to a person - every cell phone should have a "panic button", and every gun should have a built-in camera (in addition to cameras on buildings, fences, space satellites, etc).  This will create a certain standard by which your claim that "he invaded your property and you had to kill in self-defense" can be tested.

An abortion is a completely different scenario.  There's no need to prove that a fetus is trespassing and refuses to leave, and it is impossible for a pregnant woman to evict a fetus without killing it - that medical fact is currently beyond dispute.
Title: Re: Ghost #000001 of Andvari's "Warning: Nazi-style Censorship at FSP" thread
Post by: John Edward Mercier on May 29, 2011, 02:28:56 am
Nah. The only time anyone should ever mention 'choice' is when talkin about the choice to have sex or not. 

You are FORCING a baby into this world. That's an iniation of force ! The baby did not ask to be brought in, had no say in the matter, and is defensless.

That's like saying i can forcefully drag a peaceful person on to my property. Tie him down. Blow his brains apart. Then claim he invaded my property.

It's common sense, something psychotic mass murderers lack.
Actually the act of 'birth' is FORCING a baby into the world. An act of abortion doesn't.
Title: Re: Ghost #000001 of Andvari's "Warning: Nazi-style Censorship at FSP" thread
Post by: Dreepa on May 29, 2011, 10:13:41 am
actually the mods had 3-4 complaints

One post was removed I believe.
(and  you were probably warned by that mod)

FSP is the bus yadda yadda yadda.

Discussing Abortion with libertarians is a waste of time..... some are for some are against...
Title: Re: Ghost #000001 of Andvari's "Warning: Nazi-style Censorship at FSP" thread
Post by: Alex Libman on May 29, 2011, 12:08:41 pm
A bit more tolerance (and better ignore features) would have been better IMHO.

And discussion is never a waste of time.  Especially when I'm right and everyone else is wrong.   >:D
Title: Re: Ghost #000001 of Andvari's "Warning: Nazi-style Censorship at FSP" thread
Post by: John Edward Mercier on May 29, 2011, 12:41:40 pm
actually the mods had 3-4 complaints

One post was removed I believe.
(and  you were probably warned by that mod)

FSP is the bus yadda yadda yadda.

Discussing Abortion with libertarians is a waste of time..... some are for some are against...
I don't think there is many people that are FOR abortion (pro-abortion) just some that feel the feds should ban it... other that feel that the States should ban it... and those that feel that no one should ban it.
Title: Re: Ghost #000001 of Andvari's "Warning: Nazi-style Censorship at FSP" thread
Post by: MaineShark on May 29, 2011, 12:46:40 pm
I don't think there is many people that are FOR abortion (pro-abortion) just some that feel the feds should ban it... other that feel that the States should ban it... and those that feel that no one should ban it.

Indeed.  Many folks are opposed to abortion, or don't care.  Few are actually pro-abortion.

But all libertarians are pro-choice, regardless of their personal opinions on the matter.  Bans on abortion are inconsistent with the NAP.  Just as in the case of freedom of speech, libertarians must defend the right to say things, even if those things are personally-offensive to them.

Joe
Title: Re: Ghost #000001 of Andvari's "Warning: Nazi-style Censorship at FSP" thread
Post by: rossby on May 29, 2011, 04:41:30 pm
You didn't get the memo ? The FSP dictators are in control. Shut down free speech. Shut down dissenters.

Your use of these forums is governed by the forum guidelines, which you seem unable to follow despite several warnings.

If you want to post libel (and ridiculous attacks against other users), go create your own web site and post anything you want.

But please don't come into the FSP's home on the web and relieve yourself on the rug. You will be escorted out most promptly.
Title: Re: Ghost #000001 of Andvari's "Warning: Nazi-style Censorship at FSP" thread
Post by: Alex Libman on May 29, 2011, 07:21:21 pm
Moving related conversation from the Ron Paul thread (http://forum.freestateproject.org/index.php?topic=23722.15) to here:


Ron Paul would be appalled at how the dictators here are censoring me.  He is heroic and is a man of Liberty, he doesnt deserve to be mentioned in the same sentence with these Stalinites running this place.

Actually, he respects private property and leaving rules up to property owners instead of government mandated smoking bans etc.

This is another elementary failure to distinguish legal vs ethical questions.  Legally the owners of any server can do whatever the heck they want (http://forum.freestateproject.org/index.php?topic=23119) to the 1's and 0's coming out of their TCP/IP ports, if any, like fake / alter my posts to implicate me in raping kittens.  What Andvari is alleging here is unethical conduct, like bias, hypocrisy, or misuse of trust.

He is doing that in a particularly counter-constructive tone sometimes, but human beings are emotional creatures and one's position within a cultural environment as awesome as the FSP is definitely worth being emotional about (I've done a lot worse) (http://forum.freekeene.com/index.php?topic=3921)...  All angry words, especially those posted online, should be taken with some amount of salt (or soy sauce - more flavor per amount of sodium).

I think we can all be adults about this and make renewed efforts to achieve reconciliation and understanding.  Rational people can disagree on issues like abortion.  Deleting threads is never a step in the right direction (though better ignore features, which I as a developer have been pitching for years, are definitely a good idea).  In the meantime... can't we all just get along?   :)
Title: Re: Ghost #000001 of Andvari's "Warning: Nazi-style Censorship at FSP" thread
Post by: Alex Libman on June 02, 2011, 06:08:58 pm
I hear Andvari was banned then unbanned - what's the story here?

Ranting and raving on the Internets is a good thing - if not for advancing substantive debate on any level, well, then at least for the therapeutic value of getting it out of one's system and not doing anything stupid IRL.

Mods ought to be more tolerant.  FSP Inc ain't no monopoly y'know!  For years now I've been just itching to set up my own Libman State Project with a genuine free speech forum (very powerful ignore features and the like).  >:D