Free State Project Forum

Archive => Which State? => Topic started by: ZionCurtain on July 03, 2003, 08:28:00 pm

Title: Must read!!!!
Post by: ZionCurtain on July 03, 2003, 08:28:00 pm
This is from Sardonicus:

Quote
Yes Mr Maynard:

I would agree prejudice is a terrible thing.

So is hypocracy.

Rooting for the HOME TEAM in the face of overwhelming evidence that your state is not the best state for the success of the FSP is PREJUDICE.

Impliying that someone who objectivily examined the state by state data and concluded that they are predudice is hypocrazy.

While I originally believed that WY was better that NH because of my studing of the raw data and political trends, it is the difference in attitude in the supporters of NH that leads me to conclude that NH would be one of the worst states to win this vote.

The people supporting WY are people willing to move, while NH supporters are "as long as its NH"....THAT SPEAKS VOLUMES about that success.  The future of freedom is in the hands of those willing to work for it (i. e. move if the case may be) not those who are begging for a deliverer.

I could not agree more. I am beginning to think I do not belong in the FSP. I joined up to bring in a new way of doing things. Bringing about freedoms to all people. It seems that a few people on here are trying to make a political campaign out of the FSP and hijack the project. I am not into the James Carville, Bill Clinton, Democrat way of campaigning I am seeing take place over the last few weeks. So much misinformation is being spread it leaves a very bad taste for the FSP, which could lead to a very big fracture in the project.
Title: Re:Must read!!!!
Post by: Penfist on July 03, 2003, 08:30:45 pm
Can you be specific about the misinformation?
Title: Re:Must read!!!!
Post by: ZionCurtain on July 03, 2003, 08:31:04 pm
Just a little to add. I don't enjoy seeing people playing political games that affect the lives of 20,000+ people just to get what they want.
Title: Re:Must read!!!!
Post by: ZionCurtain on July 03, 2003, 08:32:44 pm
Can you be specific about the misinformation?
Exactly what I mean. There are hundreds of threads and you tell me you never read them?
Title: Re:Must read!!!!
Post by: Penfist on July 03, 2003, 08:37:59 pm
I haven't noticed any misinformation, and I'm not making claims that a lot of it is being bandied around.

You are.

So if you want to be taken seriously, point me to it.

I love the idea of the Free State, and I'll be damned if I'm going to get discouraged by these East/West arguments and flame wars.

I'm moving to whatever Free State is chosen, and I have full confidence in the organizers of this project that the vote will be counted according the Condorcet method.

Title: Re:Must read!!!!
Post by: ZionCurtain on July 03, 2003, 08:42:53 pm
I haven't noticed any misinformation, and I'm not making claims that a lot of it is being bandied around.

You are.

So if you want to be taken seriously, point me to it.

I love the idea of the Free State, and I'll be damned if I'm going to get discouraged by these East/West arguments and flame wars.

I'm moving to whatever Free State is chosen, and I have full confidence in the organizers of this project that the vote will be counted according the Condorcet method.


So my opinion is meanignless in you world? That is what I mean. If I have an opinion does that mean I can not be taken serious. Are you really James Carville?
Title: Re:Must read!!!!
Post by: Penfist on July 03, 2003, 08:43:27 pm
Can you be specific about the misinformation?
Exactly what I mean. There are hundreds of threads and you tell me you never read them?

I just need to follow up my last post, Zion.

I think you really want this project to succeed, but I think you might be a little bit too enamored with having it succeed on your terms.

I'm glad that you and many others are adamant that a Western state is the best choice. If the vote agrees with you, I'm moving to where the vote takes me.

In the meantime, I wish all of us would mix our passion with a little more logic.

I hope to sit across a table from you one day in a place where both of us and our families and friends are truly free. In the long run, that's really all I care about.
Title: Re:Must read!!!!
Post by: Stumpy on July 03, 2003, 08:43:37 pm
We are in the final stages of deciding which state presents the best chance for the FSP to be successful in furthering Liberty.

The fate of the FSP (LIBERTY IN OUR LIFETIME) could very well be determined by this very important vote.

This is high-stakes hardball and honestly, the debate has remained surprisingly civil, at least according to my perspective. If we are to be activists, we might as well get accustomed to lively debate.

I say, giddy-up! After the state is chosen, lets all shake hands and get to work.
Title: Re:Must read!!!!
Post by: jenlee on July 03, 2003, 08:45:10 pm
Quote
I have full confidence in the organizers of this project that the vote will be counted according the Condorcet method.


You know, that i one thing I have never worried about.

And well darn!!  I too will be moving to which ever state is selected. And once in that state I will go north (ok ok ok so I am partial to the north!  Is that a bad thing?  ;)) And from there I will do my part of voting for the good of what ever state I move to. I have to since I will be moving 100s if not 1,000s of miles to get there. So for me, it is in MY best interests to become involved in which ever state it is.

And all I can add is.............vote for the BEST state possible. I will.
Title: Re:Must read!!!!
Post by: jenlee on July 03, 2003, 08:46:54 pm
I agree Doug

Looking forward to putting faces and voices with nics.

So...........on to the free state! It will be wonderful, no matter if it is east coast or west coast, it will be wonderful!

We are in the final stages of deciding which state presents the best chance for the FSP to be successful in furthering Liberty.

The fate of the FSP (LIBERTY IN OUR LIFETIME) could very well be determined by this very important vote.

This is high-stakes hardball and honestly, the debate has remained surprisingly civil, at least according to my perspective. If we are to be activists, we might as well get accustomed to lively debate.

I say, giddy-up! After the state is chosen, lets all shake hands and get to work.

Title: Re:Must read!!!!
Post by: ZionCurtain on July 03, 2003, 08:47:12 pm
Stumpy, the thing is I am not sure I would want to shake hands with some of you at all. Just like buying a lemon from a used car salesman, would you go back to them again? Nope.
Title: Re:Must read!!!!
Post by: Penfist on July 03, 2003, 08:51:07 pm
Quote
I have full confidence in the organizers of this project that the vote will be counted according the Condorcet method.


You know, that i one thing I have never worried about.

And well darn!!  I too will be moving to which ever state is selected. And once in that state I will go north (ok ok ok so I am partial to the north!  Is that a bad thing?  ;)) And from there I will do my part of voting for the good of what ever state I move to. I have to since I will be moving 100s if not 1,000s of miles to get there. So for me, it is in MY best interests to become involved in which ever state it is.

And all I can add is.............vote for the BEST state possible. I will.

I look forward to it, and to meeting you and having a good laugh about how silly some of us (myself included) acted in the days and weeks leading up to packing that moving truck.
Title: Re:Must read!!!!
Post by: onyx_goddess on July 03, 2003, 08:55:19 pm
I agree that things are getting a little nasty, but it can be boiled down to less than 5 mean-spirited WY supporters and less than 5 passive-aggressive NH supporters.

I also agree that after reading and reading day after day there are many FSPers I don't care to be friends with.  However, I'm okay with that.  I can work with people without liking them.

I'm eager to get the vote done, if for no other reason than we can finally put all this stupid he-said-she-said arguing behind us and start talking about things less divisive.
Title: Re:Must read!!!!
Post by: Penfist on July 03, 2003, 08:56:18 pm
Stumpy, the thing is I am not sure I would want to shake hands with some of you at all. Just like buying a lemon from a used car salesman, would you go back to them again? Nope.

Amazing. Here we are coming together to risk everything in order to attain  freedom and you're comparing your fellow freedom lovers to used car salesmen just because you are worried that your top choice won't be everyone else's top choice?

Talk about intolerance.
Title: Re:Must read!!!!
Post by: Stumpy on July 03, 2003, 08:57:32 pm
Jenlee,
Back at ya. ;D
Thus far, my association with the FSP has allowed me to meet some wonderful people.

Zion,
I’m truly saddened you feel that way.
Well, when we get to the Free State, I’ll offer my hand to you regardless of what state is chosen.  
Title: Re:Must read!!!!
Post by: Penfist on July 03, 2003, 09:08:33 pm

Which state should we choose, honey?
The pretty one dear.
The one with the flowers and green gardens and beautiful mountains.
The one with the the big city where we'll have nice restaurants.

Flowers and green gardens and beautiful mountains don't hurt the cause of freedom if everything else is already in place.

I couldn't live in a big city with nice restaurants.

I'll be excited when the vote is done and we all know where we're going to move.

I'm sorry you don't have time to rehash the finer points regarding Wyoming vs. New Hampshire, because I don't have time to pick over all the posts with a fine tooth comb looking for the pattern of misinformation that is allegedly present.

I have to go with what's already been filtered through the sieve that is my mind.

When I get to the Free State, I'll drink a toast to everyone who moves, even if they didn't vote for that state. Life is too short.
Title: Re:Must read!!!!
Post by: jenlee on July 03, 2003, 09:49:48 pm
Guess I'm lucky since there is only one person I don't want to shake hands with.

Aw well on to the free state and the freedom we all WANT.

I agree that things are getting a little nasty, but it can be boiled down to less than 5 mean-spirited WY supporters and less than 5 passive-aggressive NH supporters.

I also agree that after reading and reading day after day there are many FSPers I don't care to be friends with.  However, I'm okay with that.  I can work with people without liking them.

I'm eager to get the vote done, if for no other reason than we can finally put all this stupid he-said-she-said arguing behind us and start talking about things less divisive.
Title: Re:Must read!!!!
Post by: StevenN on July 04, 2003, 12:09:49 am
Quote
Rooting for the HOME TEAM in the face of overwhelming evidence that your state is not the best state for the success of the FSP is PREJUDICE.

Wow. How about posting some concrete evidence that NH is not the best state? Because there is none! (or for any of the 10, for that matter) You seem to be unable to make any distinction between fact and opinion. According to your opinion, and the way you weigh the data, NH is not the best state. I would never accuse even a North Dakotan or Maine-ite pushing their home state of what you accuse James. Why not entertain the possibility that people in a state may actually think their state is best? Why not hold other posters supporting their home state to the same standard? I actually value what natives say about their state.

It just doesn't seem friendly to not give your fellow porcupine the benefit of the doubt.

I wonder if you're not posting these accusations just to smear the pro-NH crowd while new people are coming to the boards. Especially with the title "Must Read!"

I wish I could look in a crystal ball and see the outcomes of NH being picked and WY/ID/MT being picked. WY/ID/MT picked - all these "prejudiced" NH'ers moving west and being happy (because James & co. have no opt-outs, or maybe one or two). Now, if NH was picked, it would be interesting to see how guys like Zion (who say that NH is a bad choice as a matter of fact, not opinion) react. Would they go? I have not seen assurances from that crowd like I have the NH supporters when their "zeal" is questioned.

I swear, the more crap like this I read, the more and more I think this project is going to flop, wherever.
Title: Re:Must read!!!!
Post by: StevenN on July 04, 2003, 12:19:24 am
Quote
The people supporting WY are people willing to move, while NH supporters are "as long as its NH"

What a flat-out "misrepresentation"!! >:( THe most vocal supporters of NH have, on many occasions, expressed how willing they are to move to the Free State - wherever it is. Actually, of the most "vocal" people on these boards, the NH supporters are the only ones I have noticed that have expressed that they will go anywhere for freedom.
Title: Re:Must read!!!!
Post by: jenlee on July 04, 2003, 12:49:35 am
~clears throat~

As the only Alaskan posting, I have already pretty much figured out approx how far I will have to travel to get to the free state, of course depanding on where it is.

And now...........

back to your regularly scheduled flame.

~tiptoes out of thread~

Quote
The people supporting WY are people willing to move, while NH supporters are "as long as its NH"

What a flat-out "misrepresentation"!! >:( THe most vocal supporters of NH have, on many occasions, expressed how willing they are to move to the Free State - wherever it is. Actually, of the most "vocal" people on these boards, the NH supporters are the only ones I have noticed that have expressed that they will go anywhere for freedom.
Title: Re:Must read!!!!
Post by: varrin on July 04, 2003, 01:52:15 am
ZionCurtain:

I'd like to make a suggestion.  You can take it or leave it.  Here it is:

Don't attack people.

It doesn't matter how right you (think you) are, attacking people is wrong.  It's wrong first because it is simply an unkind, unwanted gesture.  It's wrong second because it will undermine your objective.  It's no secret where you or I or Jim or most of the people on these forums thinks we should move.  Attacking them because they don't like your state will only make them dislike you *and* your state because of your lousy behavior.

Honestly, I'd prefer someplace other than Wyoming.  So the more people you drive away from WY, the better for me (and ID).  But if it really is the best candidate for the project (it's at least better than several others), it would be too bad for it to fail to win because of the bad attitudes of its supporters.

V-

Title: Re:Must read!!!!
Post by: ZionCurtain on July 04, 2003, 12:21:53 pm
ZionCurtain:

I'd like to make a suggestion.  You can take it or leave it.  Here it is:

Don't attack people.

It doesn't matter how right you (think you) are, attacking people is wrong.  It's wrong first because it is simply an unkind, unwanted gesture.  It's wrong second because it will undermine your objective.  It's no secret where you or I or Jim or most of the people on these forums thinks we should move.  Attacking them because they don't like your state will only make them dislike you *and* your state because of your lousy behavior.

Honestly, I'd prefer someplace other than Wyoming.  So the more people you drive away from WY, the better for me (and ID).  But if it really is the best candidate for the project (it's at least better than several others), it would be too bad for it to fail to win because of the bad attitudes of its supporters.

V-


When you are attacked it is a reflex to attack back.
Title: Re:Must read!!!!
Post by: jenlee on July 04, 2003, 12:41:46 pm
A suggeston to you Zion and to the others.

If you feel/know you are being attacted, ignore who ever is doing that. Trust me when I say that the people reading are in fact reading and IF (note I say IF) there is lies abounding ect then the people will pick that fact up too.

So ignore attacts, take the "high ground" post good reason on why we should go to which ever state you all think we should.

Me, with all this bickering, it sort of put me off of the states being named  ON BOTH SIDES. So I do like most do, I try real hard to IGNORE the fighting and try to read the facts so I can make my own mind up.

Also, just a suggestion but take this private and you all will look better.

ZionCurtain:

I'd like to make a suggestion.  You can take it or leave it.  Here it is:

Don't attack people.

It doesn't matter how right you (think you) are, attacking people is wrong.  It's wrong first because it is simply an unkind, unwanted gesture.  It's wrong second because it will undermine your objective.  It's no secret where you or I or Jim or most of the people on these forums thinks we should move.  Attacking them because they don't like your state will only make them dislike you *and* your state because of your lousy behavior.

Honestly, I'd prefer someplace other than Wyoming.  So the more people you drive away from WY, the better for me (and ID).  But if it really is the best candidate for the project (it's at least better than several others), it would be too bad for it to fail to win because of the bad attitudes of its supporters.

V-


When you are attacked it is a reflex to attack back.
Title: Re:Must read!!!!
Post by: Dave Mincin on July 04, 2003, 02:05:02 pm
Wow...were to begin!

I support NH as our last best hope for freedom in our life time, because I believe in my heart and soul that we can create a free state in NH.

A few say the 101 reasons are hype, or spin, I say fine you are entitled to your opinion, but when I see the personel attacks on Michele, calling her a lier, and the such, honestly my blood boils, so I count to 10 walk around the comuter then keep my mouth shut.  I've have had the privilege of meeting Michele and getting to know her, and truly she is a Lady of Liberty.  You folks have no idea the time and the effort she has put into the cause of libery, often at the expense of her family and job.  She will always have my vote for Miss Liberty, and my undying graditude for her effort!

As for the fine piece she wrote in support of NH, "101 reasons" I say let the porcupines decide!

Joe we have often bumped heads on these forum, but know this, I read what you say and respect you.  I know that you are a veteran of the political wars and bring much to the table, and I look forward to working with you when this election is over.  I believe there is much you can teach me, because fact is I am a rookie in the political wars that lay ahead of us.  As for a hand shake know that I will offer mine, the rest will be up to you.

Finally, come on folks lighten up.  This state debate, and election is for many of us porcupines our first real taste of politics!  If you want to play like our current political leaders and win by attacking, and being negative so be it.

As for me I will do my best to tell why NEW HAMPSHIRE is the best place for us to establish a  FREE STATE!

Dave


Title: Re:Must read!!!!
Post by: Sardonicous on July 05, 2003, 01:58:05 pm
Good Evening Ladies and Gentlemen:

I would like to thank Mr Zion for the quote.

I stand by what I wrote except for the errors in grammar and spelling.

However I must appologise to Mr Maynard. It seems I have opt out of Three states while he opt out of none. I am not immune to a little hypocracy but when dicovered I move to correct it.  If NH is picked in a valid vote I will stand by my oath.

There is a real darkness growing and destroying this great nation that I love. I will not stand down and watch it be destoyed.

I wrote what I wrote because I believe this vote is crucial, problaby one of the most crucial votes in modern history.

The choice of which state could be the deciding factor not just of the success or failure of the FSP...but of the success or failure of the United States of America.

After the state is chosen those of us who believe in freedom must SHAKE HANDS and then close ranks to fight the real enemy.
Title: Re:Must read!!!!
Post by: Stumpy on July 05, 2003, 02:01:02 pm
Yessiree!
Title: Re:Must read!!!!
Post by: Ceol Mhor on July 05, 2003, 03:08:26 pm
Debates get heated and people can get carried away, but that's by no means a death knell for the Project. In this case particularly the debate is so heated because to major choices are all very encouraging. It think that the West provides us the best oppotunity, but certainly not by any overwhelming distance. There is overwhelming evidense that Maryland would be a crappy FSP destination. The issues separating our eastern and western candidates are far, far smaller.

Remember how many thousands of people are FSP members and don't post on the board here, and don't underestimate them. We will only fail if we give up on each other.The Founding Fathers had a far more difficult task than we do, and they pulled it off. We can do even better.

Quote
There is a real darkness growing and destroying this great nation that I love. I will not stand down and watch it be destoyed.
Hear hear!
Title: Re:Must read!!!!
Post by: pond on July 05, 2003, 06:18:00 pm
Remember how many thousands of people are FSP members and don't post on the board here, and don't underestimate them. We will only fail if we give up on each other.
I can completely agree with that and am thankful for the fact that most FSP members likely avoid this board altogether. Maybe after the vote we can be forgiven a bit of revisionism and completely remove it.
Title: Re:Must read!!!!
Post by: ZuG on July 06, 2003, 12:36:27 am
Let me jump in this debate. I see both sides of the story, let me try to elaborate them.

I definately see the point of the people on these boards who are worried about the cheering on of NH at the expense of logical discourse. Now, I have no doubt in my mind that every single NH supporter who has cheered NH has done so with no ill intentions. But, many of those same people who support NH have been starting a lot of threads and saying a lot of things, not all of which are logical.

Touting only the best points of a place and ignoring the worst points should not have a place on these boards. This is about determining what is best for the future of 20,000 people. That leaves no room for "cheering for your favorites" or some such. It worries me greatly that there are people here who would not listen to reason even if you shoved it down their throat. They are so convinced that their particular way is right that they will listen to nothing else.

Those of us who espouse logic over emotion for this decision are having a very difficult time keeping up with the sheer numbers of posts ignoring everything logical.

New Hampshire:
---------------------
New Hampshire has a lot of benefits. There is an established LP cheering us on, lots of support in the forums and by members, and a legislature that allows fusion candidates, a big plus in it's direction. I can certainly see why people cheer it, though I think "cheering" anything is against the spirit of the FSP.

I worry, though, when it comes to NH, about it's population, and more importantly, it's projected population growth. NH is one of the biggest states under consideration, population-wise. It currently has 1.275 million people. That is one FSP member for every 63.75 people.

That would be a difficult prospect, but doable if the FSP really united all it's members and made activism a daily part of our lives.

The thing that really gets me about NH is the 2000 census population projections. By 2015, NH will have 1.375 million. By 2025, it will be 1.44 million. That's around 40% growth, and a lot to deal with in a fledgling political movement.

(incidentally, for this reason, Idaho and to a lesser degree, Maine, would pose some real difficulty for the FSP)

Thanks to Joe's extensive data mining, we can more closely examine political trends. If you take a close look at the NH legislature, some disturbing trends come to light.

A quarter of NH's legislature is not from NH at all, but the much more statist Massachusetts. Another quarter of NH's legislature are current or retired lawyers or government employees. This is a disturbing trend, and it indicates that getting a foothold in the NH government may not be as easy as we would like to think.


Wyoming:
-------------

Wyoming has it's own considerable benefits. It's plentiful land space and small population make it an ideal consideration for the goals of the FSP. It's population is .5 million, and only expected to grow to .7 million through 2025, making each of our individual members much more effective than in the doubly sized NH.

It has some major downsides as well, however. Wyoming's projected job growth is the poorest of the ten states under consideration. 20,000 people moving in over a period of 5 years will certainly put a strain on the areas that get larger influxes of people.

Luckily, both Cheyenne and Laramie are less than an hour from Ft. Collins, Co, a booming city with a growing tech economy. Evanston City is about an hour away from Salt Lake City, Utah.

Allowing FSPers to work out of state while the economy adjusts to our influx will help cushion the blow, but will not help allievate it. In short, jobs are certainly a issue, although not nearly as large of an issue at it first seems.

Another issue is the social climate of the state. The governor of Wyoming said we would be welcome if we respected the laws of the state, but the welcome we have recieved from the LP and other officials there, is not nearly as warm as what NH has been putting forward.

Wyoming has bigger political districts than NH, making getting into legislature more difficult, and the lack of fusion candidates is certainly a bane in our direction.


Analysis:
------------
Most of the foreseeable problems with Wyoming are concerning in the short-term, but much less so as the time frame gets larger. Jobs will be tight when we first move in, and it will be difficult to get a foothold into politics there.

On the other hand, New Hampshire looks like a very good candidate right now. We should be able to get candidates elected within 5 years of our arrival, and with the help of the NHLP begin to make a difference right away. But, as time goes on and NH experiences rapid population growth, our meager numbers, which were already stretched thin as of our initial moving, will be stretched even more and I have large worries that we won't be able to keep up with the growth.

So, my view, and the view of many of my contemporaries is thus: Do you want the FSP to make the right choice for the short term, or the long term?

This is why we find it so dangerous that people are cheering NH without really taking a hard look at the data.
Title: Re:Must read!!!!
Post by: Zack Bass on July 06, 2003, 01:38:52 am

Another issue is the social climate of the state. The governor of Wyoming said we would be welcome if we respected the laws of the state, but the welcome we have recieved from the LP and other officials there, is not nearly as warm as what NH has been putting forward.


HAHAHAHAHA

If we respected the present Laws of the State, there would be no need for a Free State Project.  The whole point, as the Governor knows, is to change the Laws, otherwise you have moved your family to a featureless tundra for no advantage.

Title: Re:Must read!!!!
Post by: StevenN on July 06, 2003, 02:21:03 am
Quote
This is why we find it so dangerous that people are cheering NH without really taking a hard look at the data.


Hmm...I've taken a hard look at the data. And it looks like you have too. I seem to find one - and really only one - objection to NH: population. Now, you may put population as your most important variable. In that case, NH, ME, ID should not be considered. But what about those of us who are not as worried about a high pop., as long as it is balanced by a strong libertarian-minded citizenry? I guess I just don't get why people get so worked up over population differences! By 2025, according to projections, NH will still be under the 1.5m limit.

Quote
A quarter of NH's legislature is not from NH at all, but the much more statist Massachusetts. Another quarter of NH's legislature are current or retired lawyers or government employees.


So, everyone coming from Mass. must be a statist, right? ::) What if they're liberty-friendly tax refugees, as I believe.

This must be compared to other states. Frankly, I'd think that a legislature that had ONLY 1/4 lawyers and gov't employees would be in good shape.

Quote
Most of the foreseeable problems with Wyoming are concerning in the short-term, but much less so as the time frame gets larger.

Sorry, but I think it's the other way around. IMO, nearly all of WY and other parts of the west are living on borrowed time. As productivity on farms increases (especially with gains in chem/bio engineering), people will be leaving agriculture and ranching. And if we ever get real free trade, WY mining, timber, and manufacturing sectors will get hit hard, if not be evaporated. The oil can only last about 10 years, I think. Right there you can basically encompass most of WY's economy. No one can know for sure, but I'd say that by 2025, WY will only be to contain a fraction of the employment it has now, and that's with the FSP.

WY is starting to rapidly fall in my personal rankings, 1. Because the economy gets worse every time I look at it, and 2. The people don't seem as liberty-friendly as I had once thought (but that's only a minor reason)
Title: Re:Must read!!!!
Post by: Robert H. on July 06, 2003, 03:53:27 am
It has some major downsides as well, however. Wyoming's projected job growth is the poorest of the ten states under consideration. 20,000 people moving in over a period of 5 years will certainly put a strain on the areas that get larger influxes of people.

Remember though, that Wyoming does not need 20,000 to reach the equivalent degree of saturation as we would have at 20,000 in our three most populous states (Idaho, New Hampshire, and Maine).  The 1 to 62 ratio that Jason used in coming up with the 20,000 activist number could be satisfied with less than 9,000 in Wyoming.

Our success in creating a free state, not just in recruiting 20,000, is what matters most.  For this reason, jobs for 20,000 is actually a must-have requirement only for those states where 20,000 are actually needed to reach that 1 to 62 ratio.

Quote
Another issue is the social climate of the state. The governor of Wyoming said we would be welcome if we respected the laws of the state, but the welcome we have recieved from the LP and other officials there, is not nearly as warm as what NH has been putting forward.

Keep in mind here that the governor of Wyoming is also a Democrat, a type of politician that usually does not even pay lip service to the small government agenda.  The governor did say that we would be welcome to participate in state politics, and coming from a Democrat, that is something particularly unusual, especially when you consider the less than warm reception we've received from GOP governors in other states.  As for obeying the law, given the reputation that libertarians have acquired over the years as being a fringe element, I can understand why he would say something like this.  The thought of 20,000 drug-users or some such stereotypical liberatarian influx rousing the citizenry or bringing in the wrath of the feds would not be an unrealistic fear for him.

In regard to Benson's warm welcome to the FSP, it's nice to see, but, it's really a win-win situation for him in any case.  He's for smaller government; libertarians certainly can't do him any harm there.  Yet, I question whether he would support a full libertarian agenda, which would involve more than just tax breaks.  Even so, the FSP would not be sufficient to take control of New Hampshire's huge legislature, at least anytime soon, so while he is certain to get what he wants from us, he might not ever have to give us all that we would want from him.  Win-win.  Why shouldn't he be glad to see the FSP?

And yes, I know that Benson appointed the LPNH chair to an Efficiency in Government Commission; however, government can always be more efficient in its regulation.  That's not necessarily an endorsement of the full libertarian agenda.  Show me a positive response from Benson in regard to suggestions from this commission like reducing gun-control, privatizing schools, de-criminalizing victimless crimes, etc., and then I'll be impressed.

Until then, I just don't see why the FSP wouldn't be a positive thing for him.  I'm not trying to be negative here, or to "spin" anything, but until we see otherwise, why should we believe that he is anything more than another small government conservative?  The comments given by those who attended the meeting with the governor didn't indicate that he would support anything that a conservative couldn't support, unless there were comments made that we haven't heard.
Title: Re:Must read!!!!
Post by: freedomroad on July 06, 2003, 04:10:52 am

Wyoming:
-------------

Wyoming has it's own considerable benefits. It's plentiful land space and small population make it an ideal consideration for the goals of the FSP. It's population is .5 million, and only expected to grow to .7 million through 2025, making each of our individual members much more effective than in the doubly sized NH.

It has some major downsides as well, however. Wyoming's projected job growth is the poorest of the ten states under consideration.

It is not that bad.  It is 8th out of the 10 states :)

According to this factor, it is about even with New Hampshire,
"2. Future Job Health Level in the states:

This factor is somewhat important but not written in stone.  This number is figured by using two different government figured projections and is subject to change.  It is figured by dividing the 2012 projected population by the number of new jobs expected in each state by 2010.  The 2012 projected population numbers are figured by extrapolating the growth from 2000 to 2002 in each state.  This factor tells how many people it will take in each state by 2012 to produce the need for one new job.  The lower the number, the healthier a state’s job levels are.  In other words, the lower the number, the better.  

If you were to compare the states by region, the Mountain-west is best, followed by a tie between the Mid-west and Alaska, and the Northeast is last.  Interestingly enough, the best big state is Montana, the best mid-sized stated is South Dakota, and the best small state is Wyoming.  Idaho also does really well.  All four of these states border each other.  If these government projections hold up, this north Mountain-west/western plains region has a very good future job health level.  All four of these states seem to be on the same page.  On the other hand, in the north Northeast, Vermont and Maine are on the same downward spiral, while New Hampshire is a bright spot.  At least in this one category, the northern Northeast region is not one united region.

Future State Health Level

1. Montana
 10.18
 
2. Idaho
 11.41
 
3. South Dakota
 12.80
 
4. New Hampshire
 13.44
 
5. Wyoming
 14.30
 
6. Delaware
 14.97
 
7. Alaska
 15.20
 
8. North Dakota
 17.43*
 
9. Vermont
 19.01
 
10. Maine
 24.53"

Quote
20,000 people moving in over a period of 5 years will certainly put a strain on the areas that get larger influxes of people.

Since Wyoming is the fallback state, we can start moving there right after the vote.  That means we have 7-8 years to move there.

Quote
Luckily, both Cheyenne and Laramie are less than an hour from Ft. Collins, Co, a booming city with a growing tech economy. Evanston City is about an hour away from Salt Lake City, Utah.

Well, here are some more exact numbers:
Cheyenne is 40 min from Ft. Collins
Laramie is 50 min from Ft. Collins during the spring, summer, and fall (that road is closed during the winter)
Evanston is 50 min from the SLC MSA, but 1 hour 20 min from the actual city of Salt Lake
Torrington is 30 min from Scotts Bluff, NE (with an MSA of 35,000)

Quote
Another issue is the social climate of the state. The governor of Wyoming said we would be welcome if we respected the laws of the state, but the welcome we have recieved from the LP and other officials there, is not nearly as warm as what NH has been putting forward.

The LP of WY endorsed us.  As far as I know, that is the only Western candidate state LP to endorse us (I know AK did, also).  The LP of UT also endorsed us because (among other things) the UTLP state chair is a big FSP and WY fan.  Also, the Republican Party of WY has a plank in its platform that says it welcome all people on all sides of all issues into its party.  It says it even welcomes them to talk about their opinions on the issues.

Quote
Wyoming has bigger political districts than NH, making getting into legislature more difficult, and the lack of fusion candidates is certainly a bane in our direction.

Actually, that is misinformation put out by NH fans.  Wyoming has the smallest districts while, overall, NH's are the ninth smallest.  It is really sad that NH supports did this.  I am sorry that you fell for it.

See this report,
http://forum.freestateproject.org/index.php?board=5;action=display;threadid=2271

or

http://members.aol.com/wyomingsuccess/districts.html
Title: Re:Must read!!!!
Post by: freedomroad on July 06, 2003, 04:21:50 am
Sorry, but I think it's the other way around. IMO, nearly all of WY and other parts of the west are living on borrowed time. As productivity on farms increases (especially with gains in chem/bio engineering), people will be leaving agriculture and ranching. And if we ever get real free trade, WY mining, timber, and manufacturing sectors will get hit hard, if not be evaporated. The oil can only last about 10 years, I think. Right there you can basically encompass most of WY's economy. No one can know for sure, but I'd say that by 2025, WY will only be to contain a fraction of the employment it has now, and that's with the FSP.


Both Wyoming and New Hampire, along with ND and SD, have just about the lowest unenployment rates in the country.  On the other hand, OR, WA, and Alaska have some of the highest.

Natural resource use is on the way up in Wyoming.  Yes, oil, is on the way down.  However, natural gas, meth gas, wind, and a couple minerals are on their way up in production.  Wyoming has large supplies of several minerals and some of them are expected to last for over 100 years.  There are signs that timber production will soon be on the increase.  Even hunting will soon see a positive sign when the federal government leaves Wyoming alone and lets it follow the new Wyoming wolf hunting laws.

Every day, the Wyoming economy gets more diverse.  Businesses are coming from CO and UT because of the lower taxes and greater freedom in Wyoming.  Once we move there, and make Wyoming even more free, more companies will move.

In fact, while states like Idaho just released downgraded future job estimates, Wyoming's future job estimates showed a very large increase.  Much of this increase came from Gillette and Rock Springs, Wyoming (two towns with large natural resource groups) and Casper and Cheyenne (towns with all types of companies, including high tech).  
Title: Re:Must read!!!!
Post by: Zack Bass on July 06, 2003, 08:19:38 am

  .... The 1 to 62 ratio that Jason used in coming up with the 20,000 activist number could be satisfied with less than 9,000 in Wyoming.
Our success in creating a free state, not just in recruiting 20,000, is what matters most.  For this reason, jobs for 20,000 is actually a must-have requirement only for those states where 20,000 are actually needed to reach that 1 to 62 ratio.


Jason's original idea was seriously flawed.  He said that one Activist could influence 62 others.  This may be true in the case of Quebecois who already more or less like the idea of secession, but it does not apply to our reforms, which are unalterably opposed by the vast majority of Americans in every State.
For example, do you think 20,000 Cannibals could influence 1,200,000 New Hampsters to legalize Cannibalism?  We are about like that.  In fact, the libertarians among us (myself included) would have Cannibalism between consenting adults legalized.

Talking pretty to the Statists will get us nowhere.  Our only chance is to concentrate a Majority of Porcupines into one county, if a Western State is chosen; or into one Town, if New Hampshire is chosen.  Then we can prove to hesitant libertarians that they do have a place where they can vote with their feet and become far Freer than where they are now; and they will arrive in droves.  Enough will come that we can outvote the Statists currently infesting the State  Two or three hundred thousand ought to do it... far fewer will be needed in Wyoming, but there could be bloodshed there.

Title: Re:Must read!!!!
Post by: Kelton Baker on July 06, 2003, 09:21:48 am

  .... The 1 to 62 ratio that Jason used in coming up with the 20,000 activist number could be satisfied with less than 9,000 in Wyoming.
Our success in creating a free state, not just in recruiting 20,000, is what matters most.  For this reason, jobs for 20,000 is actually a must-have requirement only for those states where 20,000 are actually needed to reach that 1 to 62 ratio.


Jason's original idea was seriously flawed.  He said that one Activist could influence 62 others.  This may be true in the case of Quebecois who already more or less like the idea of secession, but it does not apply to our reforms, which are unalterably opposed by the vast majority of Americans in every State.
For example, do you think 20,000 Cannibals could influence 1,200,000 New Hampsters to legalize Cannibalism?  We are about like that.  In fact, the libertarians among us (myself included) would have Cannibalism between consenting adults legalized.

Talking pretty to the Statists will get us nowhere.  Our only chance is to concentrate a Majority of Porcupines into one county, if a Western State is chosen; or into one Town, if New Hampshire is chosen.  Then we can prove to hesitant libertarians that they do have a place where they can vote with their feet and become far Freer than where they are now; and they will arrive in droves.  Enough will come that we can outvote the Statists currently infesting the State  Two or three hundred thousand ought to do it... far fewer will be needed in Wyoming, but there could be bloodshed there.


Point taken, however, I would argue that the socialists are the cannibals here, and we are the ones begging not to be eaten; but you make a good point, Zack.

I propose that while you and others who go with you establish a remote county all to yourselves, the rest of us work to at least halt the growth of socialism in our state and let the rest of us try to give a good face to libertarianism at the political levels.  The work by the rest of us may result in your truly libertarian county or township being left alone.  You need to plan carefully where to locate in any state to avoid the perception of armed invasion, but I think you overstate the level of potential vigilantism by locals in all of Wyoming.

341
Title: Re:Must read!!!!
Post by: ZuG on July 06, 2003, 09:23:00 am
Quote
For example, do you think 20,000 Cannibals could influence 1,200,000 New Hampsters to legalize Cannibalism?


In short, Zack, no, I don't. That's why I'm hesitant about joining the project. If I do, I'll likely be opting out of the largest four states, since we'd have real problems creating success there. I would really like to be a part of the vote but I recognize that that may not be possible given the unsure political climate here in the forums.

Several others have pointed out some flaws in my analysis that make Wyoming look more appealing. Thank you. I am trying to be fair-minded and let people see that I really have done the digging and personal research on this (I pulled much of my statistics from the census myself). Wyoming is not the all-glorious State of Perfection(tm), but I do think it provides the largest chance of reasonable success for the FSP.

I like NH, I like it a lot in fact. I wish that Wyoming was offering us as warm a welcome as NH is. But I just don't think we could swing it given that it's already double the size of WY and growing faster in proportion.

Also, to those of you that pointed out that my analysis is very heavily weighed toward population issues: Why does population *not* matter to you? Population was the key factor in forming the FSP, to allow us to achieve a vocal minority that gets things done in the free state. I don't understand how you could say that we can just as easily succeed in a state with twice the population as one with half the population.

Do you *really* think you, personally, are going to convince 32 people to vote on your side with every single contraversial FSP issue, as would be required to achieve a 51% majority in NH?

If you are confident that you personally can do this, what about the rest of the FSP? As we have seen on these boards, there is a vocal minority of us that gets things done. The rest of the people are currently MIA. So on top of convincing your 32 people of the general population, are you personally going to be able to convince 4 less-active FSP members (80/20 rule) to get off their arses and convince 32 people of their own to vote with us on every contraversial issue?

Or, would it be easier for you personally to convince 160 (5*32) people to vote with us? Is there enough time in the day to sit down with enough regular statists and analyze all of the major contraversial platforms of libertarianism to convince them logically that we are correct? And this is just for a razor-thin majority on an important vote!

See how things quickly get complicated when you look at the numbers? We have a very vocal minority cheering us on in NH. But it's very important to understand that that minority is just that, a minority. They will hardly make a dent when it comes to convincing the general populace to be on our side.

In short, I don't see how anyone can logically say that a two-fold increase in population in one leading candidate versus another *isn't* important, when it's the entire basis of the existance of the FSP!
Title: Re:Must read!!!!
Post by: jgmaynard on July 06, 2003, 10:47:09 am
I definately see the point of the people on these boards who are worried about the cheering on of NH at the expense of logical discourse.

Good thing it is logical cheering. :) Anyone who has read our 101 Reasons to vote for New Hampshire (http://www.lpnh.org/101-Reasons-Vote-NH.pdf) or our list of NH advantages (http://www.lpnh.org/why-nh.htm) with an open mind realizes that NH offers many, many advantages not found in other states.

Quote
But, many of those same people who support NH have been starting a lot of threads and saying a lot of things, not all of which are logical.

Actually, the "illogical" reasons are now on a list called "The reasons NH would not be the perfect choice for the FSP" which may be found at http://www.freestatenh.com/fspnhchoice.html

Quote
Touting only the best points of a place and ignoring the worst points should not have a place on these boards.

Every state has people touting for it, and when you want to express your support for something, you talk about it's good things. But, we haven't ignored the bad things, and have tried our best to explain why they are either minor issues (eg. population), or misunderstood in the light of the unique New England system of Government (eg. population) :)

Quote
It worries me greatly that there are people here who would not listen to reason even if you shoved it down their throat.

People look at different things, my friend. What's reason to one person is spin to another.

Quote
New Hampshire has a lot of benefits. There is an established LP cheering us on, lots of support in the forums and by members, and a legislature that allows fusion candidates, a big plus in it's direction. I can certainly see why people cheer it, though I think "cheering" anything is against the spirit of the FSP.

No. Cheering is a good thing, IMNSHO. It is back stabbing and personal attacks which have no place on this forum.
Plus you forgot the multi-seat districts that NH has. In many areas you only need to come in 5th, or 7th or even 14th place to win....

Quote
I worry, though, when it comes to NH, about it's population, and more importantly, it's projected population growth.

First, all the states are under the 1:62 ratio Jason proposed. Second, I don't think it is nearly as important to look at total population as it is to look at "What will it take to become as popular as the largest party in the state?" and "How receptive will the voters be to voting for someone with an (L) next to their name?
In NH, for instance :), most state rep candidates only have ~2-3 volunteers and spend ~$500 to get elected. Even challenging all 400 seats, we could have parity with the largest party (R) with only 1200 acitivists and $200k. That's only about 1/16 the project's expect growth, and $10 a person. Put another way, if we get the full 20k, donating $100 each, we would have 16x the volunteers and 10x the money of the R's. And the people of NH are USED to voting for Lib candidates. They've elected more Libs than any other candidate state in the country.
In the words of Dr. Teeth of the Electric Mayhem, "Ain't nothing to it but to do it." :D

Quote
"A quarter of NH's legislature is not from NH at all, but the much more statist Massachusetts."

NH offers a haven to tax refugees from other NE states. If you saw the house vote on the last budget, you wouldn't be worried about it. There isn't any more avid supporter of a cause than a convert.

Quote
Another quarter of NH's legislature are current or retired lawyers or government employees.

And Tim Condon is a lawyer..... Your point is...? ;)

Quote
This is a disturbing trend, and it indicates that getting a foothold in the NH government may not be as easy as we would like to think.

The election laws still make it so that we can essentially waltz into the statehouse en masse. Not sure what the occupations of the people who are going to lose to us have to do with it. :)

Quote
On the other hand, New Hampshire looks like a very good candidate right now. We should be able to get candidates elected within 5 years of our arrival,

Who said anything about 5 years? We have two elections every year in NH, and state rep races every two years. We're going to have the largest Libertarian caucus EVER in the NH state house in 2004. We have the plan, money and resources to put at LEAST 15 Libertarians in the NH State House next year. This is what porcupines will look like in the NH State House (http://www.freestatenh.com/images/PorcupineHouse.jpg) and the Senate (http://www.freestatenh.com/images/PorcupineSenate.jpg). The largest Lib caucuses EVER are only 18 months away in NH. :)  

Quote
So, my view, and the view of many of my contemporaries is thus: Do you want the FSP to make the right choice for the short term, or the long term?

Both. That's why I am supporting New Hampshire. :)

Quote from: ZuG on Today at 01:36:27am
Quote
Since Wyoming is the fallback state

Can you explain this statement, please, Zug?

Quote
Actually, that is misinformation put out by NH fans.  Wyoming has the smallest districts while, overall, NH's are the ninth smallest.  It is really sad that NH supports did this.  I am sorry that you fell for it.

Misinformation? Our single seat districts are only ~3k people, as opposed to IIRC, ~8k for Wyoming, those are the only districts where you can compare the 2. In any district with more people, you don't have to come in first, meaning you can canvas to only a smaller group within the district.
Only looking at the single largest district in NH, and ignoring the fact that you can win by coming in 14th place the is not logical.
The only way that makes any sense due to the inherent differences in the systems is to look at min and max #'s of votes needed to win a state rep seat.

Quote
Show me a positive response from Benson in regard to suggestions from this commission like reducing gun-control, privatizing schools, de-criminalizing victimless crimes, etc., and then I'll be impressed.

Didn't read our press release, did ya, Zug? ;)
Craig Benson told us school choice is one of the next to things which willl come off his desk. We have permitless open carry, no questions asked (did you hear what happened when two well armed porcupines during the Escape went into the same realtor which Drega shot up, and there was $5,000 on the table?), the easiest cc permits in the country and localities cannot make more restrictive gun laws than the state. Victimless crimes he said he would look at "one by one with an open mind". So, maybe we could only get 90% of our state agenda passed under Benson. Still, our Governor can out-lib your Governor. OR the Governor of ANY of the other states :p

Cheap, easily winnable elections, the FSP and Lib-friendliest Governor in the nation. The largest Lib caucus ever in only 18 months.

The New Hampshire Advantage.

Title: Re:Must read!!!!
Post by: jenlee on July 06, 2003, 01:41:03 pm
I think it is important to look at the entire population of all states. Then take the land mass into consideration.

East coast states has very little real room for expansion. And if there is no room for expansion what are we going to do in a few years if even more people wants to join us? Tell them no because there is no more room left? Not a very good plan/idea to me.
Title: Re:Must read!!!!
Post by: Zack Bass on July 06, 2003, 02:07:21 pm

I think it is important to look at the entire population of all states. Then take the land mass into consideration.
East coast states has very little real room for expansion. And if there is no room for expansion what are we going to do in a few years if even more people wants to join us? Tell them no because there is no more room left? Not a very good plan/idea to me.


That is the very least of our worries!  Too many Porcupines?
We could put 10 million Porcupines into New Hampshire and have the most powerful State in the country.  In the World!  Build up and down, if necessary.
Dense populations are no problem when the inhabitants aren't out to rob one another.  10 million sheeple might be a problem.  We're gonna weed those out.

The land area of the entire country of Singapore is 682.7 square kilometers, which works out to ...  ...   ...  ....... hell I don't know, less than 250 square miles I guess.
http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/print/sn.html

And Hong Kong is less than twice that size, say 400 square miles.

And New Hampshire is nearly 9,000 square miles!!!  Over 5 million acres.  I say forget about that problem.

Title: Re:Must read!!!!
Post by: ZionCurtain on July 06, 2003, 02:15:51 pm

Another issue is the social climate of the state. The governor of Wyoming said we would be welcome if we respected the laws of the state, but the welcome we have recieved from the LP and other officials there, is not nearly as warm as what NH has been putting forward.


HAHAHAHAHA

If we respected the present Laws of the State, there would be no need for a Free State Project.  The whole point, as the Governor knows, is to change the Laws, otherwise you have moved your family to a featureless tundra for no advantage.


What state has featureless tundra? I am assuming you are referring to Alaska. Also changing a law is our goal but we must respect them until then, unless we all want to be in a freaking prison. Come on Bass use your head.
Title: Re:Must read!!!!
Post by: Zack Bass on July 06, 2003, 02:49:09 pm

What state has featureless tundra?


North Dakota.  Glacier scraped the trees off.

Most of the West in fact, compared to what we're accustomed to.
I don't mind that, if it gains me Freedom, but if we're going to be a powerless Minority, only a somewhat bigger Minority than in the general U.S. population as we have been heretofore, then I'd just as soon stay here on the beach.
If you're 10% of the Voters, evenly spread out in the State, you will never ever ever repeal a single Law.  The way to get our way is to be a Majority concentrated where we can prevail totally, then attract more support and spread from that beachhead to take over the entire State.

Quote

  ... changing a law is our goal but we must respect them until then, unless we all want to be in a freaking prison.


Wrong.  It will be the same as here:  We continue to violate their crummy Laws and make sure we don't get caught.  That does not mean that we respect the crummy Laws.
And when we control every single public office in a Western County, including the Sheriff's Office, we will be able to have far more Freedom than we have dared dream - RIGHT AWAY!!!.  That fact will make news everywhere in the World and will attract hundreds of thousands of Liberty Lovers from all over the U.S.

Title: Re:Must read!!!!
Post by: jenlee on July 06, 2003, 02:51:55 pm
Featureless tundra?  lol Now this is as stupid a thing I have read on these forums in a few days. It shows you have never been to Alaska nor have you any clue on what my state is like.

Unless of course you was talking Siberia? A good place for you I think.  ;D And even there, it is not a featureless empty dead place. Not at all like the east coast nor wyoming. It is teeming with wildlife. The kind your states used to have way back before they was all killed off.


Another issue is the social climate of the state. The governor of Wyoming said we would be welcome if we respected the laws of the state, but the welcome we have recieved from the LP and other officials there, is not nearly as warm as what NH has been putting forward.


HAHAHAHAHA

If we respected the present Laws of the State, there would be no need for a Free State Project.  The whole point, as the Governor knows, is to change the Laws, otherwise you have moved your family to a featureless tundra for no advantage.


Title: Re:Must read!!!!
Post by: ZionCurtain on July 06, 2003, 02:55:36 pm

What state has featureless tundra?


North Dakota.  Glacier scraped the trees off.

Most of the West in fact, compared to what we're accustomed to.
I don't mind that, if it gains me Freedom, but if we're going to be a powerless Minority, only a somewhat bigger Minority than in the general U.S. population as we have been heretofore, then I'd just as soon stay here on the beach.
If you're 10% of the Voters, evenly spread out in the State, you will never ever ever repeal a single Law.  The way to get our way is to be a Majority concentrated where we can prevail totally, then attract more support and spread from that beachhead to take over the entire State.

Quote

  ... changing a law is our goal but we must respect them until then, unless we all want to be in a freaking prison.


Wrong.  It will be the same as here:  We continue to violate their crummy Laws and make sure we don't get caught.  That does not mean that we respect the crummy Laws.
And when we control every single public office in a Western County, including the Sheriff's Office, we will be able to have far more Freedom than we have dared dream - RIGHT AWAY!!!.  That fact will make news everywhere in the World and will attract hundreds of thousands of Liberty Lovers from all over the U.S.


Even Maynard a office holder said he doubts we could ever obtain a majority in NH. He lives there, what makes you think you know different?
Title: Re:Must read!!!!
Post by: jenlee on July 06, 2003, 02:58:35 pm
I see.............and of course you plan on doing what with any new people who might decide to join us in a few years? What with all that land NOT available where the hell will you put them?

Freeze em and stack them like cords of wood? Pack em in like sardines?  Oh yes sounds like a plan to me. NOT!!!


I think it is important to look at the entire population of all states. Then take the land mass into consideration.
East coast states has very little real room for expansion. And if there is no room for expansion what are we going to do in a few years if even more people wants to join us? Tell them no because there is no more room left? Not a very good plan/idea to me.

So zack ol boy, what exactly are you planning on doing with the people who wont kiss your ass? Throw them out of their own state? Rob them of  their lands and all they own? Please zack get a grip. You, me, nor any of us can do a damn thing to or against those people who wont kiss your ass. Because zack, if we ever try that, WE would be the ones out on our asses. Think before spouting if at all possible. Sheeple, yep and I am posting to one right now!


That is the very least of our worries!  Too many Porcupines?
We could put 10 million Porcupines into New Hampshire and have the most powerful State in the country.  In the World!  Build up and down, if necessary.
Dense populations are no problem when the inhabitants aren't out to rob one another.  10 million sheeple might be a problem.  We're gonna weed those out.

The land area of the entire country of Singapore is 682.7 square kilometers, which works out to ...  ...   ...  ....... hell I don't know, less than 250 square miles I guess.
http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/print/sn.html

And Hong Kong is less than twice that size, say 400 square miles.

And New Hampshire is nearly 9,000 square miles!!!  Over 5 million acres.  I say forget about that problem.


Title: Re:Must read!!!!
Post by: Penfist on July 06, 2003, 03:02:16 pm
Most people I know don't mind living in stacks of boxes that go up and down. I point out, for your edification, the city of Atlanta, which is south of my home.

There, almost five million people live in little boxes, stacked up and down. The majority of them never think twice about it.

I would live in a stacked box, if it was the only way to have all the other freedoms I want.
Title: Re:Must read!!!!
Post by: jenlee on July 06, 2003, 03:02:30 pm
And before you know it there will be trees, plants etc growing on those barren mountains. If you had ever studied any type of history you would have know that glaciers once covered almost ALL of the US and Canada. Extending almost all the way down to Mexico. Then zack, they receded. And then zack nature took over and got all sorts of nifty neat little things growing. Then zack man moved in.


What state has featureless tundra?


North Dakota.  Glacier scraped the trees off.

Most of the West in fact, compared to what we're accustomed to.
I don't mind that, if it gains me Freedom, but if we're going to be a powerless Minority, only a somewhat bigger Minority than in the general U.S. population as we have been heretofore, then I'd just as soon stay here on the beach.
If you're 10% of the Voters, evenly spread out in the State, you will never ever ever repeal a single Law.  The way to get our way is to be a Majority concentrated where we can prevail totally, then attract more support and spread from that beachhead to take over the entire State.

Quote

  ... changing a law is our goal but we must respect them until then, unless we all want to be in a freaking prison.


Wrong.  It will be the same as here:  We continue to violate their crummy Laws and make sure we don't get caught.  That does not mean that we respect the crummy Laws.
And when we control every single public office in a Western County, including the Sheriff's Office, we will be able to have far more Freedom than we have dared dream - RIGHT AWAY!!!.  That fact will make news everywhere in the World and will attract hundreds of thousands of Liberty Lovers from all over the U.S.


Title: Re:Must read!!!!
Post by: Zack Bass on July 06, 2003, 03:07:19 pm

I see.............and of course you plan on doing what with any new people who might decide to join us in a few years? What with all that land NOT available where the hell will you put them?
Freeze em and stack them like cords of wood? Pack em in like sardines?  Oh yes sounds like a plan to me. NOT!!!


If Singapore and Hong Kong can do it, we can do it.  I'll rent them apartments in my Berlin Towers.

If we ever have the very unfortunate experience of having enough Porcupines to totally control New Hampshire, and there are more Freedom Lovers who want a more rural place to take over, we can point them to Vermont or Montana.  I will never view having too many Porcupines as a Problem.

Most likely, we'll end up with about half a million true liberty lovers, and the rest of the sheeple in the U.S. will prefer to remain Statist.  I think it's obvious that that is their clear preference.  Fine with me, just let me have one teeny State, that's all I ask.

Title: Re:Must read!!!!
Post by: Karl on July 06, 2003, 03:09:29 pm
Freeze em and stack them like cords of wood? Pack em in like sardines?  Oh yes sounds like a plan to me. NOT!!!

This is a non-issue.  New Hampshire will likely NEVER have 10 million people, and even if it did, at current growth rates, it would be GENERATIONS from now.

Wyoming would encounter severe water problems if only a couple million people lived there, to say nothing of 10 million.
Title: Re:Must read!!!!
Post by: Zack Bass on July 06, 2003, 03:14:39 pm

I would live in a stacked box, if it was the only way to have all the other freedoms I want.


That's right.
There's a tendency, when a get-away-from-the-bad-stuff movement starts up, to think of withdrawing into a remote desolate place.  That's because one way to be Free is to be away from everybody who might bother you.
That is not necessary for a libertarian movement.  Libertarianism is a way for huge numbers of people to get along in close quarters and still have Freedom.  We need autonomy, but we do not necessarily require a lot of room.

Title: Re:Must read!!!!
Post by: jenlee on July 06, 2003, 03:15:27 pm
A non-issue. So we do today and to hell with tomorrow?

Maybe Wyoming will have major water shortages maybe not. I know that if they would stop supporting Cal they would do better.

Also Alaska wont be facing any wter shortages, now nor in the foreseeable future.

Freeze em and stack them like cords of wood? Pack em in like sardines?  Oh yes sounds like a plan to me. NOT!!!

This is a non-issue.  New Hampshire will likely NEVER have 10 million people, and even if it did, at current growth rates, it would be GENERATIONS from now.

Wyoming would encounter severe water problems if only a couple million people lived there, to say nothing of 10 million.
Title: Re:Must read!!!!
Post by: Zack Bass on July 06, 2003, 03:20:58 pm

This is a non-issue.  New Hampshire will likely NEVER have 10 million people, and even if it did, at current growth rates, it would be GENERATIONS from now.


Under the premise to which I was responding, it would be an issue.  But it would still not be a problem.

Quote

Wyoming would encounter severe water problems if only a couple million people lived there, to say nothing of 10 million.


No more problem than Abu Dhabi.
We could simply pipe or truck or railroad in from Montana as much as we felt we could afford.  Or some other technological solution.
You don't really need much water, except for agriculture.  Certainly not for drinking.  Wyoming's got plenty to spare for 10 million drinkers.  By the time we have 10 million Porcupines in Wyoming, the industrial nature of the place will be entirely different.

Way folks in other Western States did it, they got the Feds to build them a free dam.  I would hope we wouldn't go that way.

Title: Re:Must read!!!!
Post by: ZionCurtain on July 06, 2003, 04:41:51 pm
Freeze em and stack them like cords of wood? Pack em in like sardines?  Oh yes sounds like a plan to me. NOT!!!

This is a non-issue.  New Hampshire will likely NEVER have 10 million people, and even if it did, at current growth rates, it would be GENERATIONS from now.

Wyoming would encounter severe water problems if only a couple million people lived there, to say nothing of 10 million.
More scare tactics I see.
How many people live in Arizona? Utah? Coth are dryer than Wyoming.

As for Zach Bass, he thinks there will be half a million freedom lovers in NH in a population of 10 million statists. Looks like his plan for NH is a good one.  ;D
Title: Re:Must read!!!!
Post by: ZuG on July 06, 2003, 06:31:54 pm
I definately see the point of the people on these boards who are worried about the cheering on of NH at the expense of logical discourse.
Quote from: ZuG on Today at 01:36:27am
Quote
Since Wyoming is the fallback state

Can you explain this statement, please, Zug?

Quote
Actually, that is misinformation put out by NH fans.  Wyoming has the smallest districts while, overall, NH's are the ninth smallest.  It is really sad that NH supports did this.  I am sorry that you fell for it.

Misinformation? Our single seat districts are only ~3k people, as opposed to IIRC, ~8k for Wyoming, those are the only districts where you can compare the 2. In any district with more people, you don't have to come in first, meaning you can canvas to only a smaller group within the district.
Only looking at the single largest district in NH, and ignoring the fact that you can win by coming in 14th place the is not logical.
The only way that makes any sense due to the inherent differences in the systems is to look at min and max #'s of votes needed to win a state rep seat.

Quote
Show me a positive response from Benson in regard to suggestions from this commission like reducing gun-control, privatizing schools, de-criminalizing victimless crimes, etc., and then I'll be impressed.

Didn't read our press release, did ya, Zug? ;)
Craig Benson told us school choice is one of the next to things which willl come off his desk. We have permitless open carry, no questions asked (did you hear what happened when two well armed porcupines during the Escape went into the same realtor which Drega shot up, and there was $5,000 on the table?), the easiest cc permits in the country and localities cannot make more restrictive gun laws than the state. Victimless crimes he said he would look at "one by one with an open mind". So, maybe we could only get 90% of our state agenda passed under Benson. Still, our Governor can out-lib your Governor. OR the Governor of ANY of the other states :p

Cheap, easily winnable elections, the FSP and Lib-friendliest Governor in the nation. The largest Lib caucus ever in only 18 months.

The New Hampshire Advantage.


jgmanyard: This entire section which you quoted and attributed to me was not mine, but a reply to mine, by FreedomRoad. Now if you have any issues with that, as you seem to, you'll have to take them up with him.

That said, I can answer the question about the fallback state. Wyoming was unofficially chosen as the FSP fallback state some time ago, in a thread discussion by Jason and others. If we don't reach 20,000, or don't reach them in the 5 year time-limit, then the backup plan (again, stated by Jason but not officially confirmed) is for us to go to Wyoming.

This is why freedomroad said we could move right away, and not have to wait for the 20,000. I don't find it to be a particularly compelling advantage, since it's in no way official.


You seem to automatically assume I'm talking about you when I said that there are people on these boards who are blindly cheering for a state without logic backing them. Now why is that? I never named names. Ovbiously, if you aren't doing that, as you say you aren't, then I'm not talking about you.


Also, I want someone to take me up on my offer to explain why you feel the way you do if you feel population is not important. As I outlined on page 3 of this thread, I don't think some of you have really considered the numbers when it comes to dealing with population.

As Zack said, I think that Jason's original idea was seriously flawed in that Quebec already had a large portion of the population backing succession. We don't have that, and thus we need a higher saturation than 1:62 (which NH has already slightly outgrown, btw). Somebody please explain to me how these factors are unimportant.
Title: Re:Must read!!!!
Post by: JasonPSorens on July 06, 2003, 06:52:11 pm
Any backup plan if we don't reach 20K has to remain just speculation.

Quebec did have some support for secession (about 5%) when the PQ started, but it rose significantly with PQ electoral successes.  But I don't think we should rely wholly on this one example.  Let's also take into account the fundraising capabilities of 20K, etc.
Title: Re:Must read!!!!
Post by: RhythmStar on July 06, 2003, 07:06:11 pm
One observation about population:

You can't politic with people you can't communicate with.

In a state like Wyoming, you will face vast areas of territory with  thinly-dispersed populations.  Most of these folks will spend the majority of their time on private property where you will not be welcome.  Their brief visits to town will be business-oriented and maybe a little jawboning with friends.  Since they won't know you, you won't be in that circle.   It may be hard for newcomers to press the flesh.

In contrast,  a state like New Hampshire has a more concentrated population.  People are used to politicking, as it is part of the culture (town meetings, lineitem local public budgetting, etc.).  People back East are a lot of things, but aloof and anti-social are not generally among them.  So, despite the need for a larger FSP contingent, the capacity for jobs and the ease of access to the electorate for FSP candidates may outweigh that consideration.

FWIW, I grew up in Texas.  You just don't move into town and make a big impression on the locals.  That takes years.  I know people who lived in New Braunfels for 10 years and still were looked at like they were from Mars.  They ended up moving to Austin, which from a Houstonian's perspective is one of the most cliqueish towns in Texas, to find a better sense of community.  LOL

I would not expect Wyoming to be much different, although like High Country Colorado, you probably get a few points after the 2nd or 3rd winter.  :)

Just a few thoughts.

RS
Title: Re:Must read!!!!
Post by: Dave Mincin on July 06, 2003, 07:25:35 pm
Joe,

Forgive the tardiness of my response to you.  Lots of post since we last interacted.  You make me think and for that I am grateful.  I will welcome that hand shake somewhere down the road, and am certain we will be able to work together, regardless to the outcome of the election.

I am a bit troubled by one of your comments"

"I do wish New Hampshire folks can make a lot stronger and even better backed up case than they have because I hope a Free New Hampshire would bring Maine and Vermont along."

I can see one and only one major strike against NH and that is population.  You mention the huge population of NH, yet I live in PA, somehow a million plus does not seem so much compared to that.

Should we vote for WY or VT simply because they have less people?

How can we present our case in a way that people will understand that NH is our last best hope?  What do you need to believe that NH is our best hope?  We are trying, not with hype but with the facts.  We are new to this so tell us what you need, and we will try our best to provide it.

I hear people talk of how we can create a free state, in places like WY and VT without 20,000, well maybe, but dam Joe, without 20,000 the FSP is caput!!!!!  We are all
released from our word of honor!  I truly shutter at the mear thought of that, and to be honest with you as much as I value freedom I'm not sure what I will do if that happens.

We must reach 20,000, we must honor our pledge, because as you say (forgive me if I do not get your words exact, but believe it is your meaning) loosing this fight for freedom is not an option!!!

Dave
Title: Re:Must read!!!!
Post by: Zack Bass on July 06, 2003, 08:13:07 pm

Quebec did have some support for secession (about 5%) when the PQ started, but it rose significantly with PQ electoral successes.


And it wasn't totally antithetical either.

Quote

But I don't think we should rely wholly on this one example.  Let's also take into account the fundraising capabilities of 20K, etc.


And let's also take into account the fact that the vast majority of Americans in all of the candidate States are unalterably opposed to repealing all Victimless Crime Laws.
Whereas there are hundreds of thousands of libertarians and other Lovers of Liberty who will be able to take over a State if only they concentrate together.

Spread out throughout the U.S., they will never ever ever repeal one single Victimless Crime Law.  Concentrated into one State, they can repeal them all.

At first, before we attract that many, we will have only 5,000 to 10,000 or so.  Spread out throughout the State, they will be a Majority nowhere, and they will never ever ever repeal one single Victimless Crime Law.  A couple of thousand, though, concentrated into one Western County, can achieve most of the Freedom we need, RIGHT AWAY!.  That is the only way we will attract the rest of the Porcupines we need to take over the State.  Libertarians are hesitant to go where someone says maybe we can gain a few concessions someday.  When they see that they can move to a place where they already own the Sheriff's Department and all other public offices, and no Victimless Crime Laws are being enforced at all (except by a few closely-watched and widely-reported Feds), they will come in droves!  Where else are they gonna go?
That beachhead will expand to a decisive victory in the entire State.

A mere 10,000, spread out and diluted, will be swallowed up, neutralized, outvoted at every turn, and never heard from again.  You listen to me now.  The LP has been failing with that strategy for 30 years.

Title: Re:Must read!!!!
Post by: Zack Bass on July 06, 2003, 08:15:17 pm

As for Zach Bass, he thinks there will be half a million freedom lovers in NH in a population of 10 million statists.


Sorry, I never said anything like that.  I do not believe that.  As I'm sure you are aware.

Title: Re:Must read!!!!
Post by: Dave Mincin on July 06, 2003, 08:34:53 pm
Joe,

Do understand your concerns, re population, but if I may let me relate something I learned while in NH.  John B, ran for governor in 2000, then again in 2002.  He doubled his vote count in 2002.  Sure name recognition and message may have had something to do with it, but I also learned that in 2002, he had 4, just 4 hard working dedicated people working there butts off for him.  Think they made the difference.  Two of those four were our own porcupines, Michele and Rich.

Do believe you underestimate the value of truly dedicated hard working political activitist.  Have come to believe those people are in NH and her supporters.  Is  this a heart call, most definately!  Any other state we start from scratch.  Not in NH, they are creating a base for us to move in and win support and gain power immediately, I'm to old to wait for years just to gain acceptance and credibility!

If another state can show me that, show me that the people will accept us, give us fair council then I will consider that state, but just don't see it.  All I get is statistics!  In my little world people are not statistics.  Until then I will casy my lot with the folks in NH!

Dave

Title: Re:Must read!!!!
Post by: jgmaynard on July 06, 2003, 09:31:01 pm
From Joe (message #59):

"The NHLP brags about how many libertarians they have in office.
Compared to the enormity of the task, those couple dozen are only several more drops in a bucket."

But it is a first step. and a second, and a 28th. :) People talk of how the west is more Libertarian, yet they are not voting that way. New Hampshire VOTERS have ELECTED (currently) over 3 times as many Libertarians as ALL the western states combined.

In NH, we hit the ground running, with people in office, at least one FSP member ALREADY in the state house, with two libertarian ex-gubernatorial candidates working in the state house, and with the media-saavy LPNH already plugged in to the media, and selling our candidates to the masses.

And it's LPNH ;)

JM
Title: Re:Must read!!!!
Post by: Zack Bass on July 07, 2003, 10:17:09 am

John B, ran for governor in 2000, then again in 2002.  He doubled his vote count in 2002.  Sure name recognition and message may have had something to do with it, but I also learned that in 2002, he had 4, just 4 hard working dedicated people working there butts off for him.  Think they made the difference.


Consider the principle of "Elasticity of Supply".

Suppose you have 20,000 libertarians in a State.  You run and get 10,000 votes.  Since you are a libertarian, no one but a libertarian will vote for you.
Next time, you hire 4 Activists, and you get 20,000 votes - an increase of 10,000, or 2,500 per Activist.
Any sixth-grader will assure you that, if you hire eight Activists next time, you will get 30,000 votes: the unworked-for 10,000, plus 8X2,500 = 20,000 more from the efforts of the Activists.  And if you hire 40 Activists, you will get 110,000 votes.
In reality, in your second run you had already tapped into all the votes you're ever gonna get, and no amount of "increase of price or demand" will get you any more.

Title: Re:Must read!!!!
Post by: Robert H. on July 07, 2003, 10:42:22 am

  .... The 1 to 62 ratio that Jason used in coming up with the 20,000 activist number could be satisfied with less than 9,000 in Wyoming.
Our success in creating a free state, not just in recruiting 20,000, is what matters most.  For this reason, jobs for 20,000 is actually a must-have requirement only for those states where 20,000 are actually needed to reach that 1 to 62 ratio.


Jason's original idea was seriously flawed.  He said that one Activist could influence 62 others.  This may be true in the case of Quebecois who already more or less like the idea of secession, but it does not apply to our reforms, which are unalterably opposed by the vast majority of Americans in every State.

Yes, basing one movement's chances on that of another is a risk to be sure, but given the FSP's premise, it's the theoretical basis we're currently laboring under.  As for our reforms being unalterably opposed by the vast majority of Americans, I absolutely agree with you on that.  That was one of the things that I argued on my population thread: most Americans seem to support more of a conservative approach to liberty, not a libertarian one.

Quote
Enough will come that we can outvote the Statists currently infesting the State  Two or three hundred thousand ought to do it... far fewer will be needed in Wyoming, but there could be bloodshed there.

Well, I don't believe that there will be bloodshed in Wyoming, but I do agree that we will need as many as possible.  We only need so many to satisfy Jason's 1 to 62 basis, but, as Joe has said countless times, we'll need many, many more to implement most of what we desire.

There are some here that think that folks like myself are just naysayers who have no faith in the FSP or what it proposes to do because we emphasize population, but that is not the case.  I simply agree with what you've stated above: most people are not of a libertarian mindset, and further, they're afraid of what libertarians have in mind.  They like the idea of freedom for themselves, but they wouldn't dare trust anyone else with that same degree of freedom.  And beyond that, many of them just like statism, to one degree or another.  They like being able to have the government withhold their pay and take care of all the little things for them.  Income tax withholding was one of the worst things to ever come along in American history because it keeps people from having to actively pay their taxes.  They never have the money in their hands to start with, so they get used to just not having it.  I believe it would be far different if they had to cut a check to Uncle Sam every pay period.  Then, Mr. Dole, we'd see the outrage!   ;)

Sorry for the little sermon there, but all of that to say that I agree that we need as many people as possible, and I think we should start off where we have more of an immediate advantage.  It would be different if Wyoming was a low population state full of statists, but that's not the case.

So when I say that we don't need as many in Wyoming, I say that in regard to reaching the required saturation assumed by Jason's 20,000 in a state of 1.2 million.  I just think that we give ourselves much more of an advantage starting off in Wyoming where we can build upon the 9,000 than in a state where 20,000 would be required to get us to that same starting point.
Title: Re:Must read!!!!
Post by: ZionCurtain on July 07, 2003, 10:51:00 am
From Joe (message #59):

"The NHLP brags about how many libertarians they have in office.
Compared to the enormity of the task, those couple dozen are only several more drops in a bucket."

But it is a first step. and a second, and a 28th. :) People talk of how the west is more Libertarian, yet they are not voting that way. New Hampshire VOTERS have ELECTED (currently) over 3 times as many Libertarians as ALL the western states combined.

In NH, we hit the ground running, with people in office, at least one FSP member ALREADY in the state house, with two libertarian ex-gubernatorial candidates working in the state house, and with the media-saavy LPNH already plugged in to the media, and selling our candidates to the masses.

And it's LPNH ;)

JM
Out of those LP elected officials how many are in the state Congress or US Congress? 0, none
Now I am not knocking them but let's be real about it they very little power to put forth the changes we want.
Title: Re:Must read!!!!
Post by: RhythmStar on July 07, 2003, 11:09:08 am
Quote
In a state like Wyoming, you will face vast areas of territory with  thinly-dispersed populations.  Most of these folks will spend the majority of their time on private property where you will not be welcome.  Their brief visits to town will be business-oriented and maybe a little jawboning with friends.  Since they won't know you, you won't be in that circle.  It may be hard for newcomers to press the flesh.
In contrast,  a state like New Hampshire has a more concentrated population.

Error!
What you stated above is incorrect!

I admit that I did not peruse your data and I apologize.  

HOWEVER, I stand by my statement, because it is not really in error, at least quite to the degree you seem to think.   Wyoming is 10 times the land area of New Hampshire, a statistic you did not include.   That means to cover the non-urban percentage of the population, you have to cover a lot more physical ground.  

Wyoming area:  97,818 square miles

New Hampshire area: 9,351 square miles

Over twice the population in an area less than 1/10th the size means "more concentrated" by any rational measurement I can think of, regardless of your statistics-by-arbitrary-classification.

So there.  :)

RS
Title: Re:Must read!!!!
Post by: ZionCurtain on July 07, 2003, 11:36:16 am
Quote
In a state like Wyoming, you will face vast areas of territory with  thinly-dispersed populations.  Most of these folks will spend the majority of their time on private property where you will not be welcome.  Their brief visits to town will be business-oriented and maybe a little jawboning with friends.  Since they won't know you, you won't be in that circle.  It may be hard for newcomers to press the flesh.
In contrast,  a state like New Hampshire has a more concentrated population.

Error!
What you stated above is incorrect!

I admit that I did not peruse your data and I apologize.  

HOWEVER, I stand by my statement, because it is not really in error, at least quite to the degree you seem to think.   Wyoming is 10 times the land area of New Hampshire, a statistic you did not include.   That means to cover the non-urban percentage of the population, you have to cover a lot more physical ground.  

Wyoming area:  97,818 square miles

New Hampshire area: 9,351 square miles

Over twice the population in an area less than 1/10th the size means "more concentrated" by any rational measurement I can think of, regardless of your statistics-by-arbitrary-classification.

So there.  :)

RS

Are you saying every activist has to go to every corner of the state? I was more in the thinking we would do mostly in the district we live in and then some in the state capitol.
Title: Re:Must read!!!!
Post by: RhythmStar on July 07, 2003, 12:27:53 pm
Are you saying every activist has to go to every corner of the state? I was more in the thinking we would do mostly in the district we live in and then some in the state capitol.

What I am saying is that in a physically-big, low-population state like Wyoming, there is a big chunk of the population you are simply not going to be able to politick with in an effective manner.  Think of it in terms of humans per square mile, and combine that with the question "Why would someone want to live where there were no other humans within a 2 days' horseback ride?"  Those folks are out there, and they don't particularly want to be disturbed.

In contrast, the people in New Hampshire, erroneously falling under the same statistical category as our atavistic friends in Wyoming, are of a very different sort indeed.  They are never far from their neighbors, at least by Wyoming standards (one can imagine a Wyomingite suffering fits of claustrophobia in New Hampshire's most 'remote' regions).   In fact, they are near enough to be personally involved in local and state politics.  Both culturally and physically, they will be easier to approach.  This factor may outweigh the testament of statistics that lump people into categories, as if 'rural' in Wyoming means the same thing as 'rural' in New Hampshire.

Hell, Wyoming has counties bigger than New Hampshire -- Fremont county alone is over 12,000 square miles!

Anyway, if the FSP is going to concentrate in a single location, then statewide population and disbursal may not matter, but then you run the risk of being seen as an enemy of the rest of the state. Particularly the rural folks in Wyoming.  We'll be those 'crazy cityfolk' trying to invade the State and take over the Capital.  There will be no easy cure for that, as it will be (from their perspective) quite true.  You really can't disabuse irate ranchers of their view of the truth, at least without establishing  some communication (see my original premise).

Also, there is the jobs issue.  My experience with places like Wyoming (I used to live in Dillon, CO), is that you really have to bring your own money -- they have few jobs and they are not all that great.  Locals are highly preferred.   Career changes for many may be in order (unless we have a big contingent of oil & gas workers or ranch hands).  And sparse jobs means geographic dispersal -- only LARGE urban centers can absorb thousands of new job-seekers.   A 5000-worker influx to Casper, WY would be a greater than 10% increase in population!

Anyway, I don't want to sound negative on Wyoming, it's just that I think that all those wide-open spaces have a built-in downside along with their obvious appeals.  Living in Wyoming somewhere might be a feasible thing, even desireable, but concentrating thousands of new folks into a single region and expecting to have a big effect on state politics might be a little harder than the low population numbers alone may suggest.

RS
Title: Re:Must read!!!!
Post by: Zack Bass on July 07, 2003, 12:48:06 pm

Anyway, if the FSP is going to concentrate in a single location, then statewide population and disbursal may not matter, but then you run the risk of being seen as an enemy of the rest of the state. Particularly the rural folks in Wyoming.  We'll be those 'crazy cityfolk' trying to invade the State and take over the Capital.  There will be no easy cure for that, as it will be (from their perspective) quite true.  You really can't disabuse irate ranchers of their view of the truth


Of course it's true.  So what?  What are they gonna do about it?  Shoot at us?  I've just been rebuked ten times for thinking maybe they will.  Okay, y'all win, the Wyomingites will not use Violence against us.  Therefore nothing can stop us.

Our job is to attract more Porcupines by demonstrating that they can have a lot of Freedom right away in a Western County where they are a Majority.  As we attract more, we take over more Counties.
Trying to sweet-talk Statists into enacting our reforms is a recipe for hearbreak.  We can attract enough Lovers of Liberty to take over.  We can never persuade a bunch of Statists or "Already Free Enough" Wyomingites.

Title: Re:Must read!!!!
Post by: RhythmStar on July 07, 2003, 01:10:38 pm

Anyway, if the FSP is going to concentrate in a single location, then statewide population and disbursal may not matter, but then you run the risk of being seen as an enemy of the rest of the state. Particularly the rural folks in Wyoming.  We'll be those 'crazy cityfolk' trying to invade the State and take over the Capital.  There will be no easy cure for that, as it will be (from their perspective) quite true.  You really can't disabuse irate ranchers of their view of the truth


Of course it's true.  So what?  What are they gonna do about it?  Shoot at us?  I've just been rebuked ten times for thinking maybe they will.  Okay, y'all win, the Wyomingites will not use Violence against us.  Therefore nothing can stop us.

Our job is to attract more Porcupines by demonstrating that they can have a lot of Freedom right away in a Western County where they are a Majority.  As we attract more, we take over more Counties.
Trying to sweet-talk Statists into enacting our reforms is a recipe for hearbreak.  We can attract enough Lovers of Liberty to take over.  We can never persuade a bunch of Statists or "Already Free Enough" Wyomingites.


Allow me to cut  through to the heart of the matter:

Are there enough jobs available in the target region to constitute a political majority?   If not, do economic opportunities exist such that employment for that many newcomers might be created within 5-10 years?   It would be ironic if thousands of FSP folks moved to Capser to repeal the nanny state, only to end up on the unemployment roles.  

Your 'to Hell with the locals' approach is unworkable unless the FSP can bring its own employers in sufficient quantity.

There are good economic and geographic reasons that low population states are having low populations.  Think about it.

RS
Title: Re:Must read!!!!
Post by: Zack Bass on July 07, 2003, 02:52:07 pm

Are there enough jobs available in the target region to constitute a political majority?   If not, do economic opportunities exist such that employment for that many newcomers might be created within 5-10 years?


Of course!
Whenever you have a certain number of Consumers, in a short while you will have a corresponding number of Producers (People With Jobs).  If that were not so there would be 200,000,000 people out of work in the U.S. today.

We sell our houses here, we build houses there, who builds the houses, some of us do, we eat, who sells the food, some of us do, some of us realize ahead of time that there will be a captive population of highly skilled underemployed Porcupines, they build factories and sweatshops to exploit us.  We'll take a pay cut at first, but we'll survive, happier than anywhere else.  Of course, some of us won't need jobs there at all; we will constitute a large enough subgroup to keep the whole thing going as we become a Majority.  In a year or so, we'll have total control of one County, and every single Public Office including the Sheriff's Office, and we can write our own ticket from then on.  You can't BUY joy like that anywhere in the U.S. today!
Several of us will simply buy up property in the targeted County knowing that it will be worth many times its current price in two or three years.  Don't need to have a real job to create wealth for yourself under such conditions, just live on your savings and wait for the windfall.

We're not gonna just go there and wonder what will happen.  We'll have projections ahead of time, and it won't be much of a gamble to figure out what will happen when.  There won't be 2,000 people sitting there idle wondering what will happen to them.  We won't have to wait years for Jobs to magically appear (which they will eventually, even without Foresight).

We can even set up group land-purchase agreements with money held in escrow on condition that the requisite number of people agree to put in the needed amount of cash.  Stuff like that.  It's gonna fly!

Title: Re:Must read!!!!
Post by: RhythmStar on July 07, 2003, 03:50:42 pm
Zack,

Here is an online Wyoming job search:

http://wyjobs.state.wy.us/ (http://wyjobs.state.wy.us/)

For comparison, here is a New Hampshire job search site:

http://www.jobsinnh.com/ (http://www.jobsinnh.com/)

Also, we might find that our LPNH supporters might be helpful in hooking some of us up with jobs.

There are mitigating factors in the Wyoming situation:

1) Nearness of out-of-state employment may help.

2) Migration from Nevada of tax-haven companies to Wyoming

3) Some FSP folk might be able to leverage out-of-state connections into in-state jobs for some folks.  

Anyway, I'm not saying Wyoming can't be done, I'm just saying that vast empty spaces and small populations do not, in and of themselves, guarantee political and economic viability.  

RS
Title: Re:Must read!!!!
Post by: Zack Bass on July 07, 2003, 04:45:08 pm

Anyway, I'm not saying Wyoming can't be done, I'm just saying that vast empty spaces and small populations do not, in and of themselves, guarantee political and economic viability.  


Of course; they work against it.  But we can create our own jobs.  That's what has always happened in the U.S., and in fact everywhere in the World.  People live someplace, soon there are just enough jobs for them!  In our case it will be very soon since we won't simply be showing up hoping something will come along.

First ones in will be people like me who have portable skills and businesses, and people who are retired or otherwise independently wealthy or just don't mind living in a box as long as they are Free.  As soon as we take over one tiny County, we can write our own ticket from then on.

Title: Re:Must read!!!!
Post by: Dave Mincin on July 07, 2003, 05:21:44 pm
"To hell with the locals?"  Do we really want to move to a state, all settle in one little corner of the state, gain a little political power there, then circle the wagons?  Perhaps some do, but not I!  Is this political activism?  Do we truly want to create a Free State?  Is this the way?

A while back George was asked about the invasion of porcupines to NH, he said, we do not want to invade NH, but rather make "NH more like NH!"

I want to move to the Free State, settle in, become a good citizen, a good neighbor, and a member of the community, and yes become politically active.  I would say that whatever state wins the election and becomes our new home, we would all do well to join with the locals, sure tell our story of freedom and gain converts to our cause, but  if our belief's in freedom are correct, and I am certain they are, then if we continue to tell our story to all that will listen, we will win converts, gain political power and create a Free State.

We must join with the locals, become one of them, if we truly want to create a Free State!


Title: Re:Must read!!!!
Post by: Penfist on July 07, 2003, 05:53:32 pm
I have to agree with Dave on this argument. I like the locals in New Hampshire, at least enough to exist peacefully side by side with them.
Title: Re:Must read!!!!
Post by: jenlee on July 07, 2003, 09:15:16 pm
I completely agree with you. We must become citizens of what ever state we go to. Because if we don't, we fail. And we don't want to fail, do we? I surely don't.

Imagine if you can/will, that we move to ok say NH. And once there we (or enough of us) starts acting like asses. Like we are better than them. Now, put the shoe on the other foot. Now tell me that attitude would not piss you off? Tell me that you would not start to active fight us? Tell me that you would not do all in your power to ensure our failure. And if you say no then you are lieing. Because people are people no matter how they vote. No matter where they live. No matter who they love. People are people and if we go in with the attitudes some are spouting well then I wont need to pack up and move because failure will occur.

"To hell with the locals?"  Do we really want to move to a state, all settle in one little corner of the state, gain a little political power there, then circle the wagons?  Perhaps some do, but not I!  Is this political activism?  Do we truly want to create a Free State?  Is this the way?

A while back George was asked about the invasion of porcupines to NH, he said, we do not want to invade NH, but rather make "NH more like NH!"

I want to move to the Free State, settle in, become a good citizen, a good neighbor, and a member of the community, and yes become politically active.  I would say that whatever state wins the election and becomes our new home, we would all do well to join with the locals, sure tell our story of freedom and gain converts to our cause, but  if our belief's in freedom are correct, and I am certain they are, then if we continue to tell our story to all that will listen, we will win converts, gain political power and create a Free State.

We must join with the locals, become one of them, if we truly want to create a Free State!



Title: Re:Must read!!!!
Post by: Zack Bass on July 07, 2003, 09:33:51 pm

Imagine if you can/will, that we move to ok say NH. And once there we (or enough of us) starts acting like asses. Like we are better than them. Now, put the shoe on the other foot. Now tell me that attitude would not piss you off?


Have you noticed that no one has suggested that anyone act like an ass, or as if he were better than anyone?  Why would anyone do something like that?  What would be the point?

That is not under discussion.  Try something else.

Quote

 Tell me that you would not start to active fight us? Tell me that you would not do all in your power to ensure our failure. And if you say no then you are lieing. Because people are people no matter how they vote. No matter where they live. No matter who they love. People are people and if we go in with the attitudes some are spouting well then I wont need to pack up and move because failure will occur.


If a bunch of libertarians moved into my neighborhood and Liberated me and repealed all the Victimless Crime Laws, I wouldn't care what their personal habits were.  That's because I want to be Free.  If you want someone to sing Kumbaya with you, you've got issues we can't address in this movement.

In any case, those "attitudes" the resident sheeple will have will not make any difference one way or another.  A few in the State will love us, the vast majority will oppose us in the State, no matter what; but we will be a Majority in our own region, and we will prevail, and there will be no Violence, and there will no longer be any Enforcement of Victimless Crime Laws, and a hundred thousand more will be attracted to the State because we proved that they can have FREEDOM NOW!!, and that is the strategy that will ensure our success.  Our success will not be measured by how many sheeple cry when we make them stop oppressing their neighbors; it will come when we repeal the odious Laws.

Title: Re:Must read!!!!
Post by: jenlee on July 07, 2003, 09:36:15 pm
Quote
Have you noticed that no one has suggested that anyone act like an ass, or as if he were better than anyone?  Why would anyone do something like that?  What would be the point?


I'm talking about the way you and a few others are coming across Zack. Reread what you type some time.

Title: Re:Must read!!!!
Post by: Zack Bass on July 07, 2003, 09:44:35 pm

I'm talking about the way you and a few others are coming across Zack. Reread what you type some time.


Doesn't make a bit of difference in my success in the Free State.  Might even help get me a few Votes - from the people who matter, obviously not from the sheeple.

We're supposed to be discussing a strategy for success in the Free State, not my personal social attractiveness.

Title: Re:Must read!!!!
Post by: Robert H. on July 08, 2003, 12:06:03 am
Anyway, I'm not saying Wyoming can't be done, I'm just saying that vast empty spaces and small populations do not, in and of themselves, guarantee political and economic viability.  

The vast empty spaces are just that - vast and empty.  There won't be any campaigning to do in them, so they should not be a concern.  Most of Wyoming's population is clustered around several small cities, and that is where will need to be to influence state politics.  And, given the situation there, that is where most of us will be anyway because that's where the majority of the jobs and other opportunities are.
Title: Re:Must read!!!!
Post by: Robert H. on July 08, 2003, 02:24:05 am

Anyway, if the FSP is going to concentrate in a single location, then statewide population and disbursal may not matter, but then you run the risk of being seen as an enemy of the rest of the state. Particularly the rural folks in Wyoming.  We'll be those 'crazy cityfolk' trying to invade the State and take over the Capital.  There will be no easy cure for that, as it will be (from their perspective) quite true.  You really can't disabuse irate ranchers of their view of the truth


Of course it's true.  So what?  What are they gonna do about it?  Shoot at us?  I've just been rebuked ten times for thinking maybe they will.  Okay, y'all win, the Wyomingites will not use Violence against us.  Therefore nothing can stop us.

Zack, take a look at this story from MontanaForum.com (http://www.montanaforum.com/rednews/2003/06/23/build/freedoms/racistgroup.php?nnn=3).  It concerns a white supremacist church that set up shop in Riverton, Wyoming.  The leader of that group claims that he has been discriminated against in terms of people not accepting his business, etc., but there's been no violence against him or his "congregation."
Title: Re:Must read!!!!
Post by: Zack Bass on July 08, 2003, 11:35:46 am

Zack, take a look at this story from MontanaForum.com (http://www.montanaforum.com/rednews/2003/06/23/build/freedoms/racistgroup.php?nnn=3).  It concerns a white supremacist church that set up shop in Riverton, Wyoming.  The leader of that group claims that he has been discriminated against in terms of people not accepting his business, etc., but there's been no violence against him or his "congregation."


Thanks!  That is very encouraging.  As long as we stay away from Foreman Brucie's Midgard Ranch, we'll probably do fine in Wyoming.  Certainly the folks in Riverton handled it perfectly.  If the rest of Wyoming is similar, we won't have a bit of trouble taking over a County there, and soon the whole State.
http://FreeWyoming.com

Title: Re:Must read!!!!
Post by: Dave Mincin on July 08, 2003, 07:21:03 pm
Along with freedom comes responsibility, and intregity.  May I dare say one has a responsibility to act as a gentleman or a lady, whichever the case may be.  If we don't then surely freedom will not last.  Respect for ones neighbor, is that such a strange idea?
Title: Re:Must read!!!!
Post by: Sardonicous on July 08, 2003, 07:23:53 pm
I must respond to two things:

First a New Hamshire supporter took a dig at Wyoming by asking if there could be enough j-bs to support a migration of a freestate MAJORITY needed to repeal statis laws. That question is bogus. Economes and jobs are based on equallibrium, i. e. the projected job growth for anystate is based on PROJECTED population growth. So your assumsions are logicly flawed on its face.

Point two someone tossed in the statement about Wyoming oil running out in ten years and ranches going out of business.

I remeber a statements made by political nuts in the 1970's claiming that the WORLDS oil will be used up by the year 2000
Title: Re:Must read!!!!
Post by: Sardonicous on July 08, 2003, 07:34:43 pm
Also......




 I Did you say there was one Libertarian in the New Hamshire House.

Gee....I remember when there was FOUR.

There is a libertarian base that exists in NH I will give you credit for organizing what might be a successful coup of the FSP and I will move there if you pull it off and 20,000 people join.
However that does not change the reality of 20,000 FSP's only inturupting the present assimilation of the Boston Borg.

That assimilation is why you only have 1/4 the representation you use to have.
Title: Re:Must read!!!!
Post by: Dave Mincin on July 08, 2003, 07:37:08 pm
Most projections are flawed, period, look at the ones from 10 years ago and what really happened if you really want to know!  Likewise statistics are a poor at best measure of anything in my book, yet we are asked to consider them as sacred.

People are the only thing that really counts in my little book of freedom!

If we honor our committment and stop talking about back up plans, and what if, we can move mountains!
Title: Re:Must read!!!!
Post by: freedomroad on July 09, 2003, 02:52:40 pm

 I Did you say there was one Libertarian in the New Hamshire House.


From what I recall, no state has a LP member elected to its state house.  He must be talking about a Republican Party member (or another party) that is in the state house and signed up for the FSP.  So, he is not a Libertarian.
Title: Re:Must read!!!!
Post by: Penfist on July 09, 2003, 02:54:34 pm
I am a libertarian.  You are a Libertarian. Nuff said.
Title: Re:Must read!!!!
Post by: MajesticLeo on July 09, 2003, 02:59:19 pm

 I Did you say there was one Libertarian in the New Hamshire House.


From what I recall, no state has a LP member elected to its state house.  He must be talking about a Republican Party member (or another party) that is in the state house and signed up for the FSP.  So, he is not a Libertarian.

Actually Missouri has a Libertarian in the state government, Tamara Millay.
Title: Re:Must read!!!!
Post by: freedomroad on July 09, 2003, 03:05:36 pm

 I Did you say there was one Libertarian in the New Hamshire House.


From what I recall, no state has a LP member elected to its state house.  He must be talking about a Republican Party member (or another party) that is in the state house and signed up for the FSP.  So, he is not a Libertarian.

Actually Missouri has a Libertarian in the state government, Tamara Millay.


Thanks for the info.  I guess that does not mean a state should picked just because it has a LP member in the state house (is that where they are)?  This is true since none of us would pick MO has the best state for the FSP.
Title: Re:Must read!!!!
Post by: jgmaynard on July 09, 2003, 04:45:41 pm
AND there are TWO ex-LPNH Gubernatorial candidates working in the State House... One at the Governor's side, another the Chief legislative officer of the state house.

JM
Title: Re:Must read!!!!
Post by: Michelle on July 09, 2003, 05:06:20 pm
AND there are TWO ex-LPNH Gubernatorial candidates working in the State House... One at the Governor's side, another the Chief legislative officer of the state house.

JM

And, of course, one of those gubernatorial appointees is an FSP member. Also - yes, there is a Republican NH state rep who is signed on as an FSP member, also.
Title: Re:Must read!!!!
Post by: Sardonicous on July 15, 2003, 07:07:07 pm
Taking it to the top... one more time.