Free State Project Forum

Archive => Which State? => Topic started by: Rearden on July 01, 2003, 05:38:51 pm

Title: New Hampshire is the Most Libertarian State in the USA
Post by: Rearden on July 01, 2003, 05:38:51 pm
In the Wyoming announcement that was sent out to the membership a subjective, inherently unprovable statement was sent out as fact:  that Wyoming is the most libertarian state in the nation.

Others have made the same assertion, notably ZionCurtain, who has made this statement over and over again, as if doing so will make it true.  An example is below, one of dozens.

By the facts in front of me, New Hampshire is the most libertarian state in the nation.  I challenge a supporter of the other states to present a coherent, ALL-INCLUSIVE case why another state should take the claim.

"All-inclusive" means that cherry-picking is not allowed, you can't just ignore facts when they are convenient or spin neutral facts your way.  Attempts to do so will be laughingly pointed out.

Go ahead, Keith and Paul, take a whack.  I'm looking forward to it.  


If the LP has not failed in NH then why is it not already a free state? It has less liberty than other states we are considering, how can you say that is success?

Title: Re:New Hampshire is the Most Libertarian State in the USA
Post by: ZionCurtain on July 01, 2003, 05:58:34 pm
In the Wyoming announcement that was sent out to the membership a subjective, inherently unprovable statement was sent out as fact:  that Wyoming is the most libertarian state in the nation.

Others have made the same assertion, notably ZionCurtain, who has made this statement over and over again, as if doing so will make it true.  An example is below, one of dozens.

By the facts in front of me, New Hampshire is the most libertarian state in the nation.  I challenge a supporter of the other states to present a coherent, ALL-INCLUSIVE case why another state should take the claim.

"All-inclusive" means that cherry-picking is not allowed, you can't just ignore facts when they are convenient or spin neutral facts your way.  Attempts to do so will be laughingly pointed out.

Go ahead, Keith and Paul, take a whack.  I'm looking forward to it.  


If the LP has not failed in NH then why is it not already a free state? It has less liberty than other states we are considering, how can you say that is success?

My statement was in response to someone stating that NH was a LP success story, glad to see the spin.
Title: Re:New Hampshire is the Most Libertarian State in the USA
Post by: Rearden on July 01, 2003, 06:07:07 pm
My statement was in response to someone stating that NH was a LP success story, glad to see the spin.

Compared with the rest of the nation, the LPNH is a huge success story, with 28 offices held by 26 libertarians.  Compare this with ONE for Wyoming and ZERO for Montana.  We have two Libertarians working in the statehouse, one at the right hand of Governor and libertarian Craig Benson, the other directing the bills of the Senate.

Reason number one why NH is the most libertarian state in the nation.
Title: Re:New Hampshire is the Most Libertarian State in the USA
Post by: ZionCurtain on July 01, 2003, 06:08:51 pm
My statement was in response to someone stating that NH was a LP success story, glad to see the spin.

Compared with the rest of the nation, the LPNH is a huge success story, with 28 offices held by 26 libertarians.  Compare this with ONE for Wyoming and ZERO for Montana.  We have two Libertarians working in the statehouse, one at the right hand of Governor and libertarian Craig Benson, the other directing the bills of the Senate.

Reason number one why NH is the most libertarian state in the nation.
How many state government employees in Wyoming and NH?
Title: Re:New Hampshire is the Most Libertarian State in the USA
Post by: ZionCurtain on July 01, 2003, 06:10:06 pm
My statement was in response to someone stating that NH was a LP success story, glad to see the spin.

Compared with the rest of the nation, the LPNH is a huge success story, with 28 offices held by 26 libertarians.  Compare this with ONE for Wyoming and ZERO for Montana.  We have two Libertarians working in the statehouse, one at the right hand of Governor and libertarian Craig Benson, the other directing the bills of the Senate.

Reason number one why NH is the most libertarian state in the nation.
I thought Benson was an independent, is he truly LP or just trying to swing our vote?
Title: Re:New Hampshire is the Most Libertarian State in the USA
Post by: Racer X on July 01, 2003, 06:14:45 pm
You New Hampshire guys aren't getting the message yet.  A very large number of FSPers want nothing to do with the LP !!!

Read some of the old threads about the LP.  This is one of the biggest negatives for NH.



Racer X
Title: Re:New Hampshire is the Most Libertarian State in the USA
Post by: Penfist on July 01, 2003, 06:29:05 pm
So which is more important? Disassociating yourself from bad memories/experiences with the LP or finding a state where you can become free?
Title: Re:New Hampshire is the Most Libertarian State in the USA
Post by: Michelle on July 01, 2003, 06:33:00 pm
You New Hampshire guys aren't getting the message yet.  A very large number of FSPers want nothing to do with the LP !!!

Read some of the old threads about the LP.  This is one of the biggest negatives for NH.
Racer X

It would be inaccurate and a big mistake to ever confuse LP National with LP New Hampshire.
Title: Re:New Hampshire is the Most Libertarian State in the USA
Post by: Rearden on July 01, 2003, 06:36:45 pm
How many state government employees in Wyoming and NH?

According to http://data.bls.gov/labjava/outside.jsp?survey=sm WY has 64,700 government employees out of 494,423 residents, a full 13.1% of the workforce!!!  This is the worst of the ten candidate states!  Compare this with NH, with 89,400 government employees out of 1,259,181 residents, for only 7.1% of the workforce.

Anticipating your objection, that I used percentages instead of whole numbers, I suggest you take it up with Jason, as that is exactly how he used it when designing his spreadsheet.  I believe even Paul used overall percentages when designing his spreadsheet.  To do otherwise is to manipulate the data to achieve a desired result.  If you torture the data enough, it will confess.

Smallest Government Sector Per Capita.  

Reason number two that NH is the most libertarian state in the nation.
Title: Re:New Hampshire is the Most Libertarian State in the USA
Post by: ZionCurtain on July 01, 2003, 06:42:10 pm
How many state government employees in Wyoming and NH?

According to http://data.bls.gov/labjava/outside.jsp?survey=sm WY has 64,700 government employees out of 494,423 residents, a full 13.1% of the workforce!!!  This is the worst of the ten candidate states!  Compare this with NH, with 89,400 government employees out of 1,259,181 residents, for only 7.1% of the workforce.

Anticipating your objection, that I used percentages instead of whole numbers, I suggest you take it up with Jason, as that is exactly how he used it when designing his spreadsheet.  I believe even Paul used overall percentages when designing his spreadsheet.  To do otherwise is to manipulate the data to achieve a desired result.  If you torture the data enough, it will confess.

Smallest Government Sector Per Capita.  

Reason number two that NH is the most libertarian state in the nation.
Are these numbers including federal employees?
Title: Re:New Hampshire is the Most Libertarian State in the USA
Post by: Rearden on July 01, 2003, 06:54:34 pm
Quote from: ZionCurtain link=board=5;threadid=2230;start=0#msg30707
[quote
Are these numbers including federal employees?

Yes.  In rereading your post you did say "state government employees."  WY and NH have 7300 and 8300 federal employees, respectively, according to the same source.  Subtracting these figures from the earlier "all-government" employment figures gives us the following:

WY 57400 11.65%
NH 81100 6.4%
Title: Re:New Hampshire is the Most Libertarian State in the USA
Post by: ZionCurtain on July 01, 2003, 06:57:32 pm
Reason number two that NH is the most libertarian state in the nation.
Are these numbers including federal employees?
Quote

Yes.  In rereading your post you did say "state government employees."  WY and NH have 7300 and 8300 federal employees, respectively, according to the same source.  Subtracting these figures from the earlier "all-government" employment figures gives us the following:

NH 57400 11.65%
WY 81100 6.4%
I kind of figured Wyoming had a smaller government, considering the size of the state they are doing a good job. I wonder how many of the feds work in Yellowstone.
Title: Re:New Hampshire is the Most Libertarian State in the USA
Post by: ZionCurtain on July 01, 2003, 06:59:39 pm
On the same note of Benson being a "closet" libertarian, we can assume that others are. Maybe even in a place called Wyoming. Where they already have more freedoms than NH. Not such a big stretch now is it.  ;D
Title: Re:New Hampshire is the Most Libertarian State in the USA
Post by: ZionCurtain on July 01, 2003, 07:01:58 pm
What are the legislature sizes in both Wyoming and NH? How many of them are LP?
Title: Re:New Hampshire is the Most Libertarian State in the USA
Post by: Rearden on July 01, 2003, 07:13:23 pm
I kind of figured Wyoming had a smaller government, considering the size of the state they are doing a good job. I wonder how many of the feds work in Yellowstone.

Go back and look again.  WY has the larger government, per capita.  I modified my post immediately, when I saw that I had mixed up the state abbreviations.
Title: Re:New Hampshire is the Most Libertarian State in the USA
Post by: Rearden on July 01, 2003, 07:17:54 pm
On the same note of Benson being a "closet" libertarian, we can assume that others are. Maybe even in a place called Wyoming. Where they already have more freedoms than NH. Not such a big stretch now is it.  ;D

No, I'm sure that WY has its share of small "l" libertarians, holding office as Republicans.  I doubt it's as many as NH, but it has some.  

It doesn't have one in the governor's office, though.  It has a Democrat, doesn't it?  

What freedoms, pray tell, do those in WY have that those in NH do not?  I'm very curious.

libertarian Governor Craig Benson.

Reason number three why New Hampshire is the most libertarian state in the nation.
Title: Re:New Hampshire is the Most Libertarian State in the USA
Post by: Mike Lorrey on July 01, 2003, 08:02:24 pm
Someone else appears to have done it for me... oh my, Big Brother, I hardly knew ye!
Title: Re:New Hampshire is the Most Libertarian State in the USA
Post by: Rearden on July 02, 2003, 01:42:51 am
Only state in the nation that has the guts to tell the feds to stuff their seatbelt laws and highway money where the sun don't shine.  They just get the Mass tourists to pay for their highways instead, in the form of toll roads between Manchester and the Mass line.

Signs that say "Common sense for all," instead of having a seatbelt requirement.  

Reason number four why New Hampshire is the most libertarian state in the nation.
Title: Re:New Hampshire is the Most Libertarian State in the USA
Post by: Robert H. on July 02, 2003, 03:55:26 am
In the Wyoming announcement that was sent out to the membership a subjective, inherently unprovable statement was sent out as fact:  that Wyoming is the most libertarian state in the nation.

So in response, you've created a thread that attempts to establish another subjective, inherently unprovable statement as fact: New Hampshire is the most libertarian state?  If you object to the notion of what was being asserted, that it is possible to identify the most libertarian state, then why are you countering it with another such assertion?

Quote
Others have made the same assertion, notably ZionCurtain, who has made this statement over and over again, as if doing so will make it true.  An example is below, one of dozens.

By the facts in front of me, New Hampshire is the most libertarian state in the nation.  I challenge a supporter of the other states to present a coherent, ALL-INCLUSIVE case why another state should take the claim.

"All-inclusive" means that cherry-picking is not allowed, you can't just ignore facts when they are convenient or spin neutral facts your way.  Attempts to do so will be laughingly pointed out.

Go ahead, Keith and Paul, take a whack.  I'm looking forward to it.  

I'm not Keith or Paul, but I'll take a whack at it.

I don't believe that any state can be correctly described as "libertarian," for a variety of reasons, but I believe that certain states are definitely more libertarian-leaning than others.  Of all of the research that's been done here, I'd personally rank (in no particular order) ID, AK, NH, and WY as the most libertarian states in the country.  Idaho then tends to trail the other three due to fiscal issues.  For instance, they've just recently raised taxes there, and their legislature has defeated citizen initiatives for term limits twice now.

Of the remaining three though, I'd have to say that Wyoming is the more libertarian.  The difference between Wyoming and New Hampshire is not one of night and day certainly, but I believe it's there nonetheless, as measured by the following indicators:

1. State LP has Major Party Status (not true in New Hampshire).
2. Average statewide vote for Harry Browne from 1996-2000 was greater in Wyoming than New Hampshire (.74 % as compared to .66%).  Yes, I know quite well by now that New Hampshire has more elected libertarians than any other state, but I believe this statewide ranking for a presidential candidate who has no chance demonstrates a more deeply rooted committment to the libertarian agenda.  Now image if we gave these Wyomingites a slate of libertarian candidates who haven't adopted the failed methods of the national LP?
3. In 2002, Wyomingites cast more votes for libertarian candidates than New Hampshirites:  43,944 to 39,762.  This is in spite of New Hampshire's larger population!  What does that do to per capita rankings?  Percentage-wise, libertarians in Wyoming received a total of 7.62% of the total votes cast in 2002 to New Hampshire's 2.68%.  Again, this is substantial evidence that these people will vote for us, and probably in larger numbers, if we give them good candidates.  Dave Dawson ran for US Senator in Wyoming in 2000 and picked up 8,950 votes, and then, despite his "I don't pay US federal income tax" rhetoric, he still managed to pick up 3,924 votes.  Again, I believe that these people will vote for us, if we give them decent candidates.

http://www.lp.org/campaigns/results/highlights.php?type=votesbystate (http://www.lp.org/campaigns/results/highlights.php?type=votesbystate)
http://www.lp.org/campaigns/results/highlights.php?type=percentbystate (http://www.lp.org/campaigns/results/highlights.php?type=percentbystate)

4. No personal or business income tax (New Hampshire taxes dividend and interest income, targeting "unearned" income).
5. Lowest property taxes (this affects individual property rights - New Hampshire has some of the highest property taxes in the country, and is the #1 most property-tax dependent state).
6. Best for lack of planning and zoning (those quaint little New England towns aren't likely to stand for anyone "trashing" them).
7. 2nd smallest number on welfare after Idaho (In 2000, Wyoming slashed its welfare roles more than any other state in the nation.  At that time, Wyoming had 1,288 people on welfare, as compared to New Hampshire's 14,287.)

http://www.stateline.org/fact.do?factId=521 (http://www.stateline.org/fact.do?factId=521)
http://www.stateline.org/fact.do;jsessionid=y8lp0od1l2?factId=122 (http://www.stateline.org/fact.do;jsessionid=y8lp0od1l2?factId=122)

8. Lowest federal dependence in the West
9. Highest gun ownership rate (3rd most favorable gun laws), legal open carry of firearms.  New Hampshire has moderately better gun laws, but there's not that much of a gun culture there as compared to Wyoming.  New Hampshire also lacks a firearms pre-emption law.
10. 3rd best homeschooling laws (According to the Homeschool Legal Defense Association, Wyoming ranks as a "low regulation" state.  New Hampshire ranks as a "moderate regulation" state).

http://hslda.org/laws/ (http://hslda.org/laws/)

11. Best hunting laws
12. The only FSP state without a "hate crimes" law (one of only 8 states in the country with this designation).  I believe this shows that political correctness has not infused itself into state government in Wyoming.  New Hampshire prosecutes for hate crimes.
13. Helmets not required for adult motorcycle operators.
14. State GOP upholds an individual's "right to die" in its party platform.
15. State GOP includes the return of all federal lands to the state as part of its platform.
16. Open containers permitted for auto passengers.
17. Wyoming's Congressional Representation (GOP) voting record has been rated as follows (as you can see, liberty groups love Wyoming's reps, big government groups hate them):
 
Republican Liberty Caucus: "libertarian" (both social and fiscal issues)
American Federation of Government Employees: Worst state
National Education Association: Worst
Americans for the Arts: Worst
Gun Owners of America: Best
National Taxpayers Union: Best
VoteHemp.com: Best
Citizens Against Government Waste: 2nd Best
 
18. American Lung Association ranks Wyoming smoking laws: Worst in the nation
19. Fiscally conservative, socially libertarian federal circuit court
20. High speed limits (75mph - New Hampshire - 65)
21. More permissive fireworks regulations than New Hampshire.

http://www.fireworksafety.com/statelaws (http://www.fireworksafety.com/statelaws)

22. Less highway safety regulation than New Hampshire.

http://www.hwysafety.org/safety_facts/state_laws/measure_up.htm (http://www.hwysafety.org/safety_facts/state_laws/measure_up.htm)

23. Wyoming permits citizen initiatives and referendums; New Hampshire does not.
24. A balanced budget and significant reserve fund.  Wyoming is not under the same pressure to raise taxes as New Hampshire has been, nor has it had to accept federal money to balance its budget.  In fact, Wyoming is considering lowering its already low 4% state sales tax.
25. Highly individualistic society with a reputation for defending state's rights.  Wyoming has even bucked both Montana and Idaho over issues related to Yellowstone.  Wyoming is constantly bickering with the federal government over land usage, endangered species protection, etc.  
26. Wyoming was the first government in the world to grant women the right to vote, and Wyoming women were also the first in the nation to serve on juries and hold public office.  This legacy has earned Wyoming the nickname: "Equality State."  New Hampshire had an impressive Revolutionary War record, but 100 years later, it turned its back on the idea of a people's right to self-determination and participated in Lincoln's unlawful invasion of the Southern states, a legacy it still celebrates to this day.

There will inevitably be some discussion of federal farm subsidies and government land-ownership here, but there are facts to consider there as well, and I believe they speak well for Wyoming.

The western states were not settled in the same fashion as the eastern states.  The west was divided up into parcels as suited Congress's fancy, and their growth and political processes were heavily controlled by Washington.  The eastern states were settled long before the federal government existed and could make any claims of "national sovereignty," thereby interfering in state affairs at its leisure.  Thus, the western states did not choose to become more federally dependent, or to give up more land to the government.  They had little choice in the matter at the time.

In spite of this legacy, Wyoming has still risen to the position where it is the least federally dependent FSP candidate, and where it continuously bucks the federal government.  Personally, I have tremendous respect for a people who are able to rise up against adversity and assert themselves.

Fire away, Keith.  But remember, no cherry-picking!   ;D ;)
Title: Re:New Hampshire is the Most Libertarian State in the USA
Post by: freedomroad on July 02, 2003, 05:12:36 am

Go ahead, Keith and Paul, take a whack.  I'm looking forward to it.  


I already produced a report (maybe 8 weeks ago).  The state report should be out in 5-10 days.  It compares all 10 states on many objective (and very important) factors.

The final answer?
The report sums with the top 5 candidate states being:
WY
ID
AK
NH
MT

NH is not bad, 6 out of 10 states.

Also, maybe you should read the Wyoming Report #2, which compares all of the states.  It, along with the 2 websites, have article after article explaining why WY is the most libertarian or best state:

http://www.freestateproject.org/wyoming2.htm
http://www.geocities.com/freewyoming
http://members.aol.com/wyomingliberty

Also, I highly recommend reading some Wyoming newspapers:
http://forum.freestateproject.org/index.php?board=5;action=display;threadid=1569&start=0


No matter what I think of NH, I gotta love your name :)

Title: Re:New Hampshire is the Most Libertarian State in the USA
Post by: Rearden on July 02, 2003, 01:06:46 pm

2. Average statewide vote for Harry Browne from 1996-2000 was greater in Wyoming than New Hampshire (.74 % as compared to .66%).  

Of course, NH still gave more overall votes to Browne, just a slightly lower percentage.  Well, I certainly agree that percentage is the right measure to use.

The difference is .08%.  Pretty insignificant.  

Let's see: which is a more effective measure of "libertarian-ness:"

1.)  The 26 - 1 number of elected Libertarians, or

2.)  The .08% difference in votes for Harry Browne in 1996-2000


hmmmmm.....

I'll take the 26 elected Libertarians in New Hampshire over the 1 in Wyoming any day of the week.  This is a state LP that delivers results.  They know how to get people elected.  When the national LP tried to tell them how to do things they ended the affiliation.

The most politically savvy Libertarian Party in the US.

Reason number six why New Hampshire is the most libertarian state in the nation.
Title: Re:New Hampshire is the Most Libertarian State in the USA
Post by: Rearden on July 02, 2003, 01:31:40 pm

1. State LP has Major Party Status (not true in New Hampshire).

Now, Robert, you know as well as I do that this fact isn't as impressive as it sounds when you put it in context.

The Democratic Party did not field a candidate to run against incumbent Republican Joe Meyer for Secretary of State in 2002.  The WYLP ran Marie Brossman, garnering 17% of the vote, thereby achieving major party status.

What you must realize is that the vast majority of votes for Ms. Brossman came from Democrats who didn't want to vote for the Republican and didn't know anything about the LP.  They walked into the booth, saw the hated Republican and an unknown alternative and chose the unknown.  

It was a fluke, a lucky event, and you know as well as I do that unless the Dems let another race go by without challenging the WYLP will lose their major party status in 2006.

Compare this with New Hampshire.  Where you need 10% in a statewide race for major party status in Wyoming, which can only happen through unlikely events such as the Democrats not running a candidate, you only need 4% in NH.  The LPNH had major party status until recently, and I am confident that they will regain it next year with the candidacy of Dan Belforti for US Senate.

How about this for a measure of libertarianness: New Hampshire has the highest per capita percentage of LP members in the nation.  Wyoming? It comes in ninth.  Not bad, but not first.  Behind Alaska and even Vermont.  

Highest per capita LP membership in the US.

Reason number five why New Hampshire is the most libertarian state in the nation.
Title: Re:New Hampshire is the Most Libertarian State in the USA
Post by: jgmaynard on July 02, 2003, 01:37:59 pm
Here's a story of the Benson meeting I haven't shared yet, because it occured before the official meeting.
But when I got there, I was running about 10 mins late, and couldn't find anyone. I went in, still no one around. I asked the guide at the door, and he said "They might be in the Governor's office. Room 208", and gave me directions. So, I went upstairs (no search, signing in, etc.) and walked right into the Governor's office. His receptionist (a male) said he hadn't seen the FSP group yet, and I went out to the hall.
As I'm standing by a stairwell, I heard voices from below saying "Well, it's called the Free State Project and....". Then I see Amanda and Jessica walking with an official whose face I recognized, but I couldn't place the name. So, Amanda asked me to explain the FSP to the fellow, who stopped and listened closely as I went into a short rendition of the front page of the site, noting the fact the chosen state may be New Hampshire. His response was "That pretty much sounds like New Hampshire". Then, he thanked us, and left, walking into the State Senate chamber for the historic budget sessions.
So such is the take from a NH State Senator...

JM
Title: Re:New Hampshire is the Most Libertarian State in the USA
Post by: ZionCurtain on July 02, 2003, 01:54:56 pm
"That pretty much sounds like New Hampshire".
I guess we are taking that as a positive? Or is it meant like, NH is full of nutty people?
Title: Re:New Hampshire is the Most Libertarian State in the USA
Post by: Rearden on July 02, 2003, 01:58:41 pm
"That pretty much sounds like New Hampshire".
I guess we are taking that as a positive? Or is it meant like, NH is full of nutty people?

Only if you define "nutty people" as libertarians.
Title: Re:New Hampshire is the Most Libertarian State in the USA
Post by: jenlee on July 02, 2003, 01:59:20 pm
Define nutty people?

99.99% of the US will/does think the people invovled with FSP is at the very least nutty and more I am sure.

If by nutty people you mean they dare to think the way they wish to think, live the way thy wish to live etc, well nutty isn't bad.

Heck I personally know a lot of "nutty" folks. lol Ain't telling if I have ever been called nutty or its equivalent   ;D


"That pretty much sounds like New Hampshire".
I guess we are taking that as a positive? Or is it meant like, NH is full of nutty people?
Title: Re:New Hampshire is the Most Libertarian State in the USA
Post by: Penfist on July 02, 2003, 02:01:46 pm
Here's a story of the Benson meeting I haven't shared yet, because it occured before the official meeting.
But when I got there, I was running about 10 mins late, and couldn't find anyone. I went in, still no one around. I asked the guide at the door, and he said "They might be in the Governor's office. Room 208", and gave me directions. So, I went upstairs (no search, signing in, etc.) and walked right into the Governor's office. His receptionist (a male) said he hadn't seen the FSP group yet, and I went out to the hall.
As I'm standing by a stairwell, I heard voices from below saying "Well, it's called the Free State Project and....". Then I see Amanda and Jessica walking with an official whose face I recognized, but I couldn't place the name. So, Amanda asked me to explain the FSP to the fellow, who stopped and listened closely as I went into a short rendition of the front page of the site, noting the fact the chosen state may be New Hampshire. His response was "That pretty much sounds like New Hampshire". Then, he thanked us, and left, walking into the State Senate chamber for the historic budget sessions.
So such is the take from a NH State Senator...

JM

Sounds just like every person I met while I was up for the "Escape." So the senators are a reflection of everyone else in that regard. They think for a moment and then tell you that it sounds like New Hampshire is the right place for the FSP.
Title: Re:New Hampshire is the Most Libertarian State in the USA
Post by: jenlee on July 02, 2003, 02:08:54 pm
Yes but is it? And does he just say that or does he really mean it? I mean, he didn't talk at length about FSP did he? He just made a little comment. And one that while it "sounds" good doesn't mean we should bank on.  I mean, if the government from very candidate state should make the same comment, does that mean every state is just as good? Does that mean every state should be voted to win?

I mean, one little comment does not prove anything.

Here's a story of the Benson meeting I haven't shared yet, because it occured before the official meeting.
But when I got there, I was running about 10 mins late, and couldn't find anyone. I went in, still no one around. I asked the guide at the door, and he said "They might be in the Governor's office. Room 208", and gave me directions. So, I went upstairs (no search, signing in, etc.) and walked right into the Governor's office. His receptionist (a male) said he hadn't seen the FSP group yet, and I went out to the hall.
As I'm standing by a stairwell, I heard voices from below saying "Well, it's called the Free State Project and....". Then I see Amanda and Jessica walking with an official whose face I recognized, but I couldn't place the name. So, Amanda asked me to explain the FSP to the fellow, who stopped and listened closely as I went into a short rendition of the front page of the site, noting the fact the chosen state may be New Hampshire. His response was "That pretty much sounds like New Hampshire". Then, he thanked us, and left, walking into the State Senate chamber for the historic budget sessions.
So such is the take from a NH State Senator...

JM

Sounds just like every person I met while I was up for the "Escape." So the senators are a reflection of everyone else in that regard. They think for a moment and then tell you that it sounds like New Hampshire is the right place for the FSP.
Title: Re:New Hampshire is the Most Libertarian State in the USA
Post by: jenlee on July 02, 2003, 02:10:33 pm
Add to my above post, add in senators as well.

Really I shoudl read close but my question still stands as it is and also with this add on.
Title: Re:New Hampshire is the Most Libertarian State in the USA
Post by: Rearden on July 02, 2003, 02:16:11 pm

3. In 2002, Wyomingites cast more votes for libertarian candidates than New Hampshirites:  43,944 to 39,762.  This is in spite of New Hampshire's larger population!  What does that do to per capita rankings?  Percentage-wise, libertarians in Wyoming received a total of 7.62% of the total votes cast in 2002 to New Hampshire's 2.68%.  Again, this is substantial evidence that these people will vote for us, and probably in larger numbers, if we give them good candidates.  Dave Dawson ran for US Senator in Wyoming in 2000 and picked up 8,950 votes, and then, despite his "I don't pay US federal income tax" rhetoric, he still managed to pick up 3,924 votes.  Again, I believe that these people will vote for us, if we give them decent candidates.

http://www.lp.org/campaigns/results/highlights.php?type=votesbystate (http://www.lp.org/campaigns/results/highlights.php?type=votesbystate)
http://www.lp.org/campaigns/results/highlights.php?type=percentbystate (http://www.lp.org/campaigns/results/highlights.php?type=percentbystate)

But of the 43,944 votes WY residents cast for Libertarians in 2002, 29,751, a full 67.7% of them, were for Marie Brossman, running in a two-way race against a Republican!  The vast majority of those votes indisputably came from Democrats who couldn't bring themselves to either not vote or vote for the Republican!

The 2002 election results from WY are a fluke.  It will never happen again.  

I mean, geez, if the Democrats in NH didn't bother to run someone against Craig Benson next year I bet the LP gubernatorial candidate there would see a significant jump in votes, too.  That doesn't translate into real popular support for the party ideals.
Title: Re:New Hampshire is the Most Libertarian State in the USA
Post by: Stumpy on July 02, 2003, 02:17:09 pm
Jenlee,

I completely understand your hesitation to trust this from just ONE person.

We got the same basic answer from about 30 folks, from all over NH.

Every time we described the FSP to NH locals, the locals made it clear that the FSP would be welcome. Moreover, many said they would welcome us to help fight for freedom.

New Hampshire = the Free State.  LIVE FREE OR DIE!
Title: Re:New Hampshire is the Most Libertarian State in the USA
Post by: ZionCurtain on July 02, 2003, 02:26:03 pm
"That pretty much sounds like New Hampshire".
I guess we are taking that as a positive? Or is it meant like, NH is full of nutty people?
I am asking Maynard what he meant, in what context. As for nutty I was not referring to a good nutty.
Title: Re:New Hampshire is the Most Libertarian State in the USA
Post by: Rearden on July 02, 2003, 02:29:24 pm

4. No personal or business income tax (New Hampshire taxes dividend and interest income, targeting "unearned" income).


Let me preface this by saying that I'll be the first to agree that the dividend and interest tax needs to go.

But to address your point:

1.) NH has no sales tax, unlike WY.

2.) NH has the lowest overall tax burden of any state in the country.  WY is 31st in the nation, at 7.61% of gross income.

3.) According to the NH state website: "Resident individuals, partnerships, limited liability companies, and fiduciaries with non-transferable shares earning interest and dividend taxable income of more than $2,400 annually ($4,800 for joint filers)"  Here's my question: how many people do you know that earned $2400 individually or $4800 jointly in interest or dividend income?  This tax will never affect the vast majority of FSP members.

The tax still needs to go, admittedly.  But NH is a lot closer to the ideal zero taxation that libertarians endorse than Wyoming.  


The lowest tax burden in the US - 4.54% of gross income.

Reason number seven why New Hampshire is the most libertarian state in the nation.
Title: Re:New Hampshire is the Most Libertarian State in the USA
Post by: Rearden on July 02, 2003, 02:52:25 pm
5. Lowest property taxes (this affects individual property rights - New Hampshire has some of the highest property taxes in the country, and is the #1 most property-tax dependent state).

Several points to make on this one:

1.) Most of the property taxes are controlled at the local level.  Thus, there is a great deal of disparity between towns.  Some towns have high property tax, some towns have low property tax.  

2.) NH town government allows a citizen to present a petition with 15 signatures and put a line item on the budget (warrant) up for referendum on the ballot.  This gives town residents incredible control over fiscal policy.  Don't want that new school?  Vote not to fund it.  

3.) Even with the property tax, NH still has the lowest overall tax burden in the nation, far ahead of WY.  You can pick all you want at a few individual taxes where WY may have an edge, but the fact remains that NH residents pay less of their income in taxes than those of any other state in the nation.

4.) The only state property tax is dedicated to school funding.  It was until recently $6.00 per $1000, and has already been cut to $5.80 per $1000.  Furthermore, the governor has made it his mission to further reduce the tax to $3.00 per $1000 by 2008.  

5.) The property tax bill that NH residents receive is THE tax bill.  They don't get nickeled and dimed like residents of other states (sales taxes, income taxes, etc.).  They have to actually sit down and write out a big check twice a year.  It hurts.  It makes them angry.  And that's an opportunity for us.

Sorry, Robert, no dice with this one, either.
Title: Re:New Hampshire is the Most Libertarian State in the USA
Post by: Rich T. on July 02, 2003, 03:08:28 pm
You New Hampshire guys aren't getting the message yet.  A very large number of FSPers want nothing to do with the LP !!!

Read some of the old threads about the LP.  This is one of the biggest negatives for NH.

Racer X

So don't work with the LP. No big deal. NH has a few Constitution Party and America First Party members you can hook up with.

Here in NH we have several constitutionalist Republicans. One of whom intro'd a bill to remove the Bar Associations monopoly on the courts. Another one to have NH not enforce the PATRIOT ACT. Another one intro'd a bill to give a tax credit to homeschoolers. Others have co-sponsored bills to remove the state from direct education funding. At least one member has attended local FSP meetings. At least two have spoken at local We The People meetings. One is even a current FSP member.

You're seeing the LPNH get the attention b/c several of our members are leading the charge and actually doing something to promote the FSP and NH. We are not like the national party, we broke out of the membership structure and have basically told them to catch up with us when they get their act together.
Title: Re:New Hampshire is the Most Libertarian State in the USA
Post by: jgmaynard on July 02, 2003, 03:13:56 pm
"That pretty much sounds like New Hampshire".
I guess we are taking that as a positive? Or is it meant like, NH is full of nutty people?
I am asking Maynard what he meant, in what context. As for nutty I was not referring to a good nutty.

During the few minutes we spoke (It WAS, after all, when the budget-veto bill was heating up) he seemed extremely interested and sincere. He meant it as saying the goals of the FSP are consistent with nature of the NH voter.
Besides, remember - This is NH! The state where Libertarians are NOT considered nutty... Two of our ex-gubernatorial candidates are working at the state house - in the Governors office and as the Executive Legislative Officer. They wouldn't put in people they didn't have a great deal of respect for.

JM
Title: Re:New Hampshire is the Most Libertarian State in the USA
Post by: Rearden on July 02, 2003, 03:21:18 pm

6. Best for lack of planning and zoning (those quaint little New England towns aren't likely to stand for anyone "trashing" them).

1.) There is no statewide requirement for planning in New Hampshire, just enabling legislation allowing towns to do it, very similar to WY's:

15?1?503.  Master plan; adoption; concurrent action; contents; amendment.

(a)  The commission, after holding public hearings, shall adopt and certify to the governing body a master plan for the physical development of the municipality. If the plan involves territory outside the city or town, action shall be taken with the concurrence of the board of county commissioners or county planning commission, or other municipal legislative body concerned.  The master plan, with the accompanying maps, plats, charts and descriptive and explanatory matter shall show the:

(i)  Commission's recommendations for the development and may include the general location, character and extent of streets, bridges, viaducts, parks, waterways and waterfront developments, playgrounds, airports and other public ways, grounds, places and spaces;

(ii)  General location of public buildings and other public property;

(iii)  General location and extent of public utilities and terminals, whether publicly or privately owned, for water, light, power, heat, sanitation, transportation, communication and other purposes;

(iv)  Acceptance, widening, removal, extension, relocation, narrowing, vacation, abandonment, or change of use of any public ways, grounds, places, spaces, buildings, properties, utilities or terminals;

(v)  Zoning plan for the regulation of the height, area, bulk, location and use of private and public structures and premises, and of population density;

2.) Many towns in NH do not plan, just as much of WY does not.  Of course, the unplanned portions of NH are verdant and green, while...  I'm trying to stay positive, here.

3.) Yes, the NH towns are charming and beautiful.  Even the ones without planning.  
Title: Re:New Hampshire is the Most Libertarian State in the USA
Post by: Leonard on July 02, 2003, 03:26:26 pm
Regarding using votes to determine libertarian leanings for states: I don't think NH can be easily compared to other states.  The reason?  NH has fusion.  

In NH it is quite possible to vote for a Republican-Libertarian, or even a Democrat-Republican-Libertarian.  I'll bet that the National LP would count that as a "libertarian" vote.  Compare how the same candidate would do in WY: he or she would run as a Republican.  Only the more radically libertarian voters would still vote for a LP candidate (if one entered at all).  So the LP in the same sort of circumstance would get a much smaller share of the vote, or zero (if no LP candidate entered).  Many fewer votes - even though the electorate and the candidate were no different.

What are good voting measures of libertarianness?  Well, statewide three-way races, and statewide two-way races where one candidate is R and the other LP.  Those should be good tests that would fairly compare WY and NH (and other states).  The only one of these that I know of, is the Browne vote comparison mentioned previously in this thread.  Which rates WY as marginally more libertarian than NH, though really the difference is too small to be very significant.  Let's hear about some other three-way races in each place!

Now, if I stopped here I am sure Keith would point out that having fusion is a huge advantage.  He'd be right, more or less. I don't think fusion is quite huge - we can bring it to WY.  But it is certainly a head start that NH has over WY.  It will probably take us several years to get fusion in place in WY - that's time and political capital that we wouldn't have to spend in NH.  Still, if WY is really more libertarian, then a few years of political handicap will be overcome in the longer run.
Title: Re:New Hampshire is the Most Libertarian State in the USA
Post by: Rearden on July 02, 2003, 03:33:29 pm
I agree with Leonard's general sentiments.  Comparing voting numbers between two states with very different voting systems, different candidates, and different numbers of candidates is like comparing apples and oranges.  

And yes, fusion is a massive advantage.
Title: Re:New Hampshire is the Most Libertarian State in the USA
Post by: Rearden on July 02, 2003, 04:53:54 pm

7. 2nd smallest number on welfare after Idaho (In 2000, Wyoming slashed its welfare roles more than any other state in the nation.  At that time, Wyoming had 1,288 people on welfare, as compared to New Hampshire's 14,287.)

http://www.stateline.org/fact.do?factId=521 (http://www.stateline.org/fact.do?factId=521)
http://www.stateline.org/fact.do;jsessionid=y8lp0od1l2?factId=122 (http://www.stateline.org/fact.do;jsessionid=y8lp0od1l2?factId=122)

I'll give you this one, Robert.  WY has the second-lowest proportion of welfare recipients of the ten candidate states, while NH comes in fourth.  

Of course we're defining "welfare" to mean AFDC, right?  There are plenty of other welfare provisions that NH does stellar in, while WY sinks to the bottom, such as farm subsidies.  I'll cover them later.

For now, I'll admit that on this measure, NH is behind WY.  Can't have 'em all.
Title: Re:New Hampshire is the Most Libertarian State in the USA
Post by: Rearden on July 02, 2003, 05:06:23 pm
8. Lowest federal dependence in the West

Which is, of course, still much higher than New Hampshire.  The truth is that the people of the western states receive so much back in federal benefits, in the form of farm subsidies and highway money and the like, that they are bought and paid for.

No offense, folks, but how do you think the existing population will handle it if we try to talk them into not playing ball with the feds, and start threatening that pot of golden taxpayer dollars?  Do you really think they will be receptive to us?

Wyoming receives $1.14 back in benefits for every dollar it sends to Washington.  It and every other positive-benefit state are, IMO, leeches on the productive states in the nation, benefiting from the wealth distribution policies that we seek to end.  

Least federal dependency of any candidate state, with .71 cents returned of every dollar spent to feed the DC machine.

Reason number eight why New Hampshire is the most libertarian state in the nation.
Title: Re:New Hampshire is the Most Libertarian State in the USA
Post by: Mickey on July 02, 2003, 09:15:18 pm
3. In 2002, Wyomingites cast more votes for libertarian candidates than New Hampshirites:  43,944 to 39,762.  This is in spite of New Hampshire's larger population!  What does that do to per capita rankings?  Percentage-wise, libertarians in Wyoming received a total of 7.62% of the total votes cast in 2002 to New Hampshire's 2.68%.

http://www.lp.org/campaigns/results/highlights.php?type=votesbystate (http://www.lp.org/campaigns/results/highlights.php?type=votesbystate)
http://www.lp.org/campaigns/results/highlights.php?type=percentbystate (http://www.lp.org/campaigns/results/highlights.php?type=percentbystate)

I may not know what I'm talking about, but as I was checking this thread out I noticed that A huge amount (33,218) of Wyomings votes that year came from local elections. Aren't New Hampshire's local election non-partison, thus the 0 total votes for NH in local elections. Did NH run a bunch of local candidates that didn't get counted in these numbers?
Title: Re:New Hampshire is the Most Libertarian State in the USA
Post by: Robert H. on July 03, 2003, 03:28:54 am
Votes for libertarians in Wyoming just constitute a fluke, or, at most, the expression of anti-Republican sentiment, eh?  Anything more is unthinkable.

If this is the assumption from which you are approaching the discussion, then there's nothing at all I could say on any of these issues that would make any difference whatsoever.

Title: Re:New Hampshire is the Most Libertarian State in the USA
Post by: Rearden on July 03, 2003, 11:17:28 am
Votes for libertarians in Wyoming just constitute a fluke, or, at most, the expression of anti-Republican sentiment, eh?  Anything more is unthinkable.

If this is the assumption from which you are approaching the discussion, then there's nothing at all I could say on any of these issues that would make any difference whatsoever.



Robert, that's not what I said.  Please quote me in context.

I said that it is a fluke for one of the major parties to not run a candidate in a statewide race.  That is the only reason the WYLP got major party status last year.  The only reason.  It would never have happened otherwise.  WY's requirement for major party status is actually 250% of NH's.  
Title: Re:New Hampshire is the Most Libertarian State in the USA
Post by: Rearden on July 04, 2003, 04:08:12 pm
9. Highest gun ownership rate (3rd most favorable gun laws), legal open carry of firearms.  New Hampshire has moderately better gun laws, but there's not that much of a gun culture there as compared to Wyoming.  

New Hampshire has passed Vermont, and with the possible exception of Alaska, has the most libertarian gun laws in the US!

From: http://forum.freestateproject.org/index.php?board=5;action=display;threadid=2291

Quote
While most of us are familiar with Vermont Carry, what is less well known is that local municipalities in VT are allowed to pass their own local ordinances restricting gun rights. Apparently, places like Burlington have done this. I'm not sure to what degree.

Well - that is absolutely not allowed in New Hampshire. CCW licenses are given on a "shall issue" basis and from the GO-NH site "HB415 clarifies existing state law that says that only the New Hampshire legislature - NOT towns and cities - can regulate firearms." HB415 was necessary to prevent "the emergence of widely varying town laws which infringe upon the rights of gun owners and can make you a criminal as you travel from one locality to another going about your usual business."

Relevant Excerpt From HB 415

State Jurisdiction

159:26 Firearms and Ammunition; Authority of the State.

I. To the extent consistent with federal law, the state of New Hampshire shall have authority and jurisdiction over the sale, purchase, ownership, use, possession, transportation, licensing, permitting, taxation, or other matter pertaining to firearms, firearms components, ammunition, or firearms supplies in the state. Except as otherwise specifically provided by statute, no ordinance or regulation of a political subdivision may regulate the sale, purchase, ownership, use, possession, transportation, licensing, permitting, taxation, or other matter pertaining to firearms, firearms components, ammunition, or firearms supplies in the state. Nothing in this section shall be construed as affecting a political subdivision's right to adopt zoning ordinances for the purpose of regulating firearms businesses in the same manner as other businesses or to take any action allowed under RSA 207.59.

Relevant excerpt from HB766

159:6 License to Carry.

I. The selectmen of a town or the mayor or chief of police of a city or some full-time police officer designated by them respectively, upon application of any resident of such town or city, or the director of state police, or some person designated by such director, upon application of a nonresident, shall issue a license to such applicant authorizing the applicant to carry a loaded pistol or revolver in this state for not less than 4 years from the date of issue, if it appears that the applicant has good reason to fear injury to the applicant's person or property or has any proper purpose, and that the applicant is a suitable person to be licensed. Hunting, target shooting, or self-defense shall be considered a proper purpose. The license shall be valid for all allowable purposes regardless of the purpose for which it was originally issued. The license shall be in duplicate and shall bear the name, address, description, and signature of the licensee. The original shall be delivered to the licensee and the duplicate shall be preserved by the people issuing the same for 4 years. When required, license renewal shall take place within the month of the fourth anniversary of the license holder's date of birth following the date of issuance. The license shall be issued within 14 days after application, and, if such application is denied, the reason for such denial shall be stated in writing, the original of which such writing shall be delivered to the applicant, and a copy kept in the office of the person to whom the application was made. The fee for licenses issued to residents of the state shall be $10, which fee shall be for the use of the law enforcement department of the town granting said licenses; the fee for licenses granted to out-of-state residents shall be $20, which fee shall be for the use of the state. The director of state police is hereby authorized and directed to prepare forms for the licenses required under this chapter and forms for the application for such licenses and to supply the same to officials of the cities and towns authorized to issue the licenses. No other forms shall be used by officials of cities and towns. The cost of the forms shall be paid out of the fees received from nonresident licenses.

II. No photograph or fingerprint shall be required or used as a basis to grant, deny, or renew a license to carry for a resident or nonresident, unless requested by the applicant.

Open carry without permit.  Must issue licenses for concealed carry.  Local jurisdictions cannot restrict gun freedoms.

Reason number nine why New Hampshire is the most libertarian state in the nation.
Title: Re:New Hampshire is the Most Libertarian State in the USA
Post by: jgmaynard on July 04, 2003, 07:03:03 pm
I know other states have Liberty minded events throughout the year, especially on the 4th, but it was AMAZING to day to go and listen to the Declaration of Independence being read today in one of the NH churches where it was originally read. So much of it sounds like the bill of rights (the 1st part) of the NH Constitution, that I got the feeling the NH folks there were probably thinking they were copying them. :)

JM

Ahhh.. One more time for the 4th... :D

NH Constitution [Art.] 10. [Right of Revolution.] Government being instituted for the common benefit, protection, and security, of the whole community, and not for the private interest or emolument of any one man, family, or class of men; therefore, whenever the ends of government are perverted, and public liberty manifestly endangered, and all other means of redress are ineffectual, the people may, and of right ought to reform the old, or establish a new government. The doctrine of nonresistance against arbitrary power, and oppression, is absurd, slavish, and destructive of the good and happiness of mankind.

June 2, 1784
Title: Re:New Hampshire is the Most Libertarian State in the USA
Post by: Rearden on July 04, 2003, 10:00:01 pm
I know other states have Liberty minded events throughout the year, especially on the 4th, but it was AMAZING to day to go and listen to the Declaration of Independence being read today in one of the NH churches where it was originally read. So much of it sounds like the bill of rights (the 1st part) of the NH Constitution, that I got the feeling the NH folks there were probably thinking they were copying them. :)

JM

Ahhh.. One more time for the 4th... :D

NH Constitution [Art.] 10. [Right of Revolution.] Government being instituted for the common benefit, protection, and security, of the whole community, and not for the private interest or emolument of any one man, family, or class of men; therefore, whenever the ends of government are perverted, and public liberty manifestly endangered, and all other means of redress are ineffectual, the people may, and of right ought to reform the old, or establish a new government. The doctrine of nonresistance against arbitrary power, and oppression, is absurd, slavish, and destructive of the good and happiness of mankind.

June 2, 1784


Constitutional Right and Duty of Revolution

Reason number ten why New Hampshire is the most libertarian state in the nation.
Title: Re:New Hampshire is the Most Libertarian State in the USA
Post by: Penfist on July 07, 2003, 08:32:47 am
Quote
I'm not Keith or Paul, but I'll take a whack at it.

. . .I'd personally rank (in no particular order) ID, AK, NH, and WY as the most libertarian states in the country.  Idaho then tends to trail the other three due to fiscal issues.  For instance, they've just recently raised taxes there, and their legislature has defeated citizen initiatives for term limits twice now.

Fiscal responsibility, or the lack thereof, is by far the biggest single inhibitor to reducing government and promoting freedom. When you begin a battle with 40-50%* of your funds in the enemy's treasury, the odds are severely stacked against you already.

If state A steals 40%* of my life work to use in limiting the choices I get to make and state B steals only 15%*, I'll vote for state B every time.

New Hampshire is State B, as it currently steals the least sweat from the backs of the productive citizens that live within its borders.

*Numbers are not to be taken literally or quoted out of context.

Edited for typo.