Free State Project Forum

New Hampshire -- The "Live Free or Die" State => Education/ Homeschooling => Topic started by: antistate1190 on October 17, 2010, 02:15:51 am

Title: How can we convince more NH youths to drop out of government school?
Post by: antistate1190 on October 17, 2010, 02:15:51 am
We need some kind of strategy to ensure this. Government schools are a waste and we need to be showing more kids how they can drop out of school and still have a good life. What would be some tactics?
Title: Re: How can we convince more NH youths to drop out of government school?
Post by: John Edward Mercier on October 17, 2010, 02:19:04 am
Obviously you don't have a clue as to how NH is structured.
Title: Re: How can we convince more NH youths to drop out of government school?
Post by: Antijingoist on October 17, 2010, 08:54:38 am
looking back on life, I wish I dropped out of school, but then I would not have the job I do now. Unless a counter economy was stronger, you'd set them up to have very difficult lives.
Title: Re: How can we convince more NH youths to drop out of government school?
Post by: antistate1190 on October 17, 2010, 11:11:23 am
looking back on life, I wish I dropped out of school, but then I would not have the job I do now. Unless a counter economy was stronger, you'd set them up to have very difficult lives.

I think you can get a job without schooling. I also think schooling is the reason we have no jobs in America anymore.

It's like this: say you go to school at a liberal arts college like Goucher in Baltimore and you graduate with a degree in something useless libearl-artsy like philosophy or psychology. OK now you have to get a job, but you think your degree makes you "too good" for a manufacturing job in the factory but you don't have a high enough education to get a really high-level job. So now youre screwed. I'm seeing this w/ more and more college graduates. They graduate from expensive schools w/ useless degrees and then they have all this student debt to pay off and no job because they think their "education" makes them too good for a blue collar job and not good enough for a white collar job.

This is another reason why I'd hesitate ever sending my kids to college. It's a waste of time and money. I can teach them all the skills they need at home when there young.
Title: Re: How can we convince more NH youths to drop out of government school?
Post by: John Edward Mercier on October 17, 2010, 12:21:38 pm
The manufacturing job loss in America was largely because of redevelopment of foreign competition after its destruction is WWII.
Certain trade agreements made it worse, though they are more free market.
For example, the Jay Treaty allowed the US and Canada to trade/travel more freely and they developed together. When various US Administration tried to include Mexico (not an original AofC member)... it might have worked by slowly opening markets. But shortly afterward the GATT was signed, and jobs envisioned for Mexico headed to China.

Unlike Mexico which supplies the US with energy (oil), China competes with the US for resources.
So while GATT opens up trading, it had a much larger economic displacement.
Title: Re: How can we convince more NH youths to drop out of government school?
Post by: antistate1190 on October 17, 2010, 01:09:04 pm
The manufacturing job loss in America was largely because of redevelopment of foreign competition after its destruction is WWII.
Certain trade agreements made it worse, though they are more free market.
For example, the Jay Treaty allowed the US and Canada to trade/travel more freely and they developed together. When various US Administration tried to include Mexico (not an original AofC member)... it might have worked by slowly opening markets. But shortly afterward the GATT was signed, and jobs envisioned for Mexico headed to China.

Unlike Mexico which supplies the US with energy (oil), China competes with the US for resources.
So while GATT opens up trading, it had a much larger economic displacement.


Free trade isn't the problem. The problem is these kids coming out of 45k per year liberal arts schools with useless degrees. If I get a philosophy degree I can tell u all about philosophy but I can't put caps on bottles and if I went thru all that schooling I wouldn't want to spend my whole life putting caps on bottles anyway. But see I can't get a job as a doctor or lawyer b/c I don't have enough schooling for that. This is why I think most schooling is useless and will discourage my children from attending.
Title: Re: How can we convince more NH youths to drop out of government school?
Post by: John Edward Mercier on October 17, 2010, 01:17:20 pm
I don't disagree with your assessment as to the value of formal schooling beyond a certain point. Especially for those not looking to a specific field or career... but manufacturing jobs for the most part do not require a degree.
Title: Re: How can we convince more NH youths to drop out of government school?
Post by: creaganlios on October 17, 2010, 02:46:39 pm

This is another reason why I'd hesitate ever sending my kids to college. It's a waste of time and money. I can teach them all the skills they need at home when there young.

Hopefully you'll teach them when "they're" young, not when "there" young.

And hopefully they will indeed be smart enough to know that you're wrong, and will put themselves through school whether you 'send' these adults there or not.
Title: Re: How can we convince more NH youths to drop out of government school?
Post by: Antijingoist on October 17, 2010, 06:54:52 pm
My problem is that education was so expensive, I never got my cs/software engineering degree. :) Going to school for that means beans without the fancy paper. And instead of working up a portfolio or experience, I was too busy studying programming on a vax, or playing with overrated languages for "educational reasons." If I had skipped school, I would have spent time learning cocoa and java then, rather than now, inbetween jobs while supporting a family.
Education tends to be on what makes you a good slave, not what makes you an innovative generator of value.
Title: Re: How can we convince more NH youths to drop out of government school?
Post by: Dreepa on October 17, 2010, 08:04:30 pm
My problem is that education was so expensive, I never got my cs/software engineering degree. :) Going to school for that means beans without the fancy paper. And instead of working up a portfolio or experience, I was too busy studying programming on a vax, or playing with overrated languages for "educational reasons." If I had skipped school, I would have spent time learning cocoa and java then, rather than now, inbetween jobs while supporting a family.
Education tends to be on what makes you a good slave, not what makes you an innovative generator of value.

although some places won't hire you without fancy paper.

I had the wrong words on my fancy paper and didn't get hired...even though I had installed and taught all of their people how to use the software.
They wanted someone with a computer science degree. ::)
Title: Re: How can we convince more NH youths to drop out of government school?
Post by: antistate1190 on October 17, 2010, 08:53:15 pm
Kids need to know: if you can't afford school then DONT GO!!!!! Your presence at school costs taxpayers billions of dollars every year. Most of what you learn in school you can just learn on your own in a library. Stupid kids and parents need to stop thinking about themselves and start thinking about us who have to pay for these education camps.
Title: Re: How can we convince more NH youths to drop out of government school?
Post by: Toowm on October 17, 2010, 09:44:23 pm
I feel very differently than some folks about this. I think if you homeschool your kids at least through grade school, they will have such a leg up that college will be a breeze. If money is your concern, use the Gary North (http://www.garynorth.com/public/department89.cfm) method. While there are many careers that don't need a college education, you are shutting yourself out from millions of jobs if you don't have a college degree.

I'm not saying it's right for everyone, and I completely agree that humanities degrees can be a waste, but with a little foresight from parents and effort from children, you can get a huge leg up.
Title: Re: How can we convince more NH youths to drop out of government school?
Post by: John Edward Mercier on October 17, 2010, 10:35:48 pm
Kids need to know: if you can't afford school then DONT GO!!!!! Your presence at school costs taxpayers billions of dollars every year. Most of what you learn in school you can just learn on your own in a library. Stupid kids and parents need to stop thinking about themselves and start thinking about us who have to pay for these education camps.
Really not required to fund universities/colleges.
Title: Re: How can we convince more NH youths to drop out of government school?
Post by: rossby on October 17, 2010, 11:13:31 pm
Obviously you don't have a clue as to how NH is structured.

Can you clue him in?
Title: Re: How can we convince more NH youths to drop out of government school?
Post by: John Edward Mercier on October 18, 2010, 12:32:12 am
Individual children don't get to make the decisions. By the time they are no longer 'youths', its post-secondary... which doesn't matter except for public subsidies which are not constitutional obligations.

He needs to appeal to parents/guardians.
Title: Re: How can we convince more NH youths to drop out of government school?
Post by: dude6935 on October 18, 2010, 11:29:07 am
Why is there no mention of private schools? Don't schools get funded based on the number of students they have? So if you convince people to go to private school you will cut funding to public school and reduce your own taxes. Push for vouchers and/or charter schools as a path to privatization.

There is little to be gained by targeting kids, they can't make these decisions until they are like 16. Parents make most of these decisions.

Title: Re: How can we convince more NH youths to drop out of government school?
Post by: John Edward Mercier on October 18, 2010, 02:19:13 pm
Private schools don't involve any public funding. While charter, vouchers, and conventional public would receive State funding based on the number of students and 'offsets'. Vouchers aren't popular because the means to use them does not exist.

Charters schools, so far, have failed to remain fiscally viable within State/federal public funding mechanisms. I believe them to be viable, but not within the models that were chosen.

Title: Re: How can we convince more NH youths to drop out of government school?
Post by: 10stateswithnh on October 18, 2010, 07:32:00 pm
Someone mentioned the age of 16. At what age is a high school student in NH legally allowed to drop out. 18? 16? Is the answer different if they emancipate themselves?
Title: Re: How can we convince more NH youths to drop out of government school?
Post by: slothman on October 18, 2010, 08:37:37 pm
When private schools are cheap enough or homeschooling can be easily done while both parents still work.
Title: Re: How can we convince more NH youths to drop out of government school?
Post by: John Edward Mercier on October 18, 2010, 08:50:06 pm
Someone mentioned the age of 16. At what age is a high school student in NH legally allowed to drop out. 18? 16? Is the answer different if they emancipate themselves?
18. And I would presume so with emancipation, but I don't know.
Title: Re: How can we convince more NH youths to drop out of government school?
Post by: BigJoe on October 19, 2010, 11:39:02 am
When private schools are cheap enough or homeschooling can be easily done while both parents still work.

as long as the market is dominated by public schools, private schools will never be cheap enough due to the crowding out effect.

Vouchers are no good, that will just lead to even more regulation of private schools and will keep prices high.

I think one of the key first steps is to get rid of all or at least make compulsory education and child labor laws more liberty friendly.

Then start banning rich kids from attending public school, and then start moving that bar lower and lower, all while lowering taxes since there will be less need for school funding with fewer kids attending.
Title: Re: How can we convince more NH youths to drop out of government school?
Post by: John Edward Mercier on October 19, 2010, 03:02:53 pm
Your insinuation is wrong.
Title: Re: How can we convince more NH youths to drop out of government school?
Post by: dude6935 on October 20, 2010, 11:44:53 am
Vouchers aren't popular because the means to use them does not exist.

What does that mean?

Charters schools, so far, have failed to remain fiscally viable within State/federal public funding mechanisms. I believe them to be viable, but not within the models that were chosen.

Why do you say they aren't viable? I was under the impression that they are growing. New York just increased the number of charters they would allow by hundreds.
Title: Re: How can we convince more NH youths to drop out of government school?
Post by: John Edward Mercier on October 20, 2010, 11:51:06 am
We had several charter schools within NH, they fell apart.
Vouchers aren't viable because other options don't really exist in many cases. But in any case, the State (federal?) funding follows the student.

We would need to provide the mechanisms for the system to function...
Title: Re: How can we convince more NH youths to drop out of government school?
Post by: margomaps on October 20, 2010, 12:37:41 pm
But in any case, the State (federal?) funding follows the student.

If this is true, then should I expect a check in the mail from the state of NH, and possibly the US Dept of Education?  After all, I'm homeschooling my kids.  That should save my local school at least $5,000k-$10,000k per year, per student.    >:D

Actually, not only will I not receive education $$ for homeschooling my kids, it is also my understanding that the public schools in NH have lobbied to receive (or possibly already receive?) funding for the students who are homeschooled in their districts.  Does anyone know whether the schools actually receive $$ from the state for these students?  I think the supposed justification for this is that homeschooled students in NH are technically allowed to participate in some activities at public schools (athletics, for example), which potentially costs the schools some amount of $$.  Though from my perspective it looks a little more like a money-grab.
Title: Re: How can we convince more NH youths to drop out of government school?
Post by: John Edward Mercier on October 20, 2010, 01:08:38 pm
As far as I know, the State Education grants don't include athletics, maybe that is federal funding.
I believe that legislative work is being done for some format of tax abatement for private tutorial.
Title: Re: How can we convince more NH youths to drop out of government school?
Post by: slothman on October 20, 2010, 04:52:58 pm

I think one of the key first steps is to get rid of all or at least make compulsory education and child labor laws more liberty friendly.

Then start banning rich kids from attending public school, and then start moving that bar lower and lower, all while lowering taxes since there will be less need for school funding with fewer kids attending.

I think comp edu should be removed.
It seems like slavery to me, just like drafting but that is a different story.
I also think labor laws of various kinds should be removed; if a child wants to work then why not.
Again, off topic though.

It almost seems good to require rich people to go to public schools.
That way they will lobby to get improved teaching like private schools would do.
Title: Re: How can we convince more NH youths to drop out of government school?
Post by: Jacobus on October 21, 2010, 07:32:59 am
You can help move kids from government to non-government schools by donating to the Liberty Scholarship Fund (http://www.lsfund.org).  :)
Title: Re: How can we convince more NH youths to drop out of government school?
Post by: BigJoe on October 21, 2010, 08:38:05 am
It almost seems good to require rich people to go to public schools.
That way they will lobby to get improved teaching like private schools would do.


why would that be good?
Title: Re: How can we convince more NH youths to drop out of government school?
Post by: dude6935 on October 22, 2010, 12:00:35 pm
We had several charter schools within NH, they fell apart.

A Google search seems to show that there are plenty of charter schools in NH right now.
Title: Re: How can we convince more NH youths to drop out of government school?
Post by: John Edward Mercier on October 22, 2010, 04:43:14 pm
Some. But you need to refer whether they remain open.
Populated areas tend to do the best... as they can draw students without extensive travel demands.

There is definately the ability for them to work dependent on the model.


Title: Re: How can we convince more NH youths to drop out of government school?
Post by: dude6935 on October 22, 2010, 05:12:41 pm
At least one is web based so you can attend from home. I like that model, at least for some students and for some of the year.
Title: Re: How can we convince more NH youths to drop out of government school?
Post by: MTPorcupine3 on October 23, 2010, 09:02:28 am
My brother dropped out at 16, not because he was dumb, but because he didn't like being told what to study and how to study it. Today he is more literate, articulate, and generally educated than any of us that I know of. He drives a bus for entertainers on tour, listens to books & lectures on tape, and between gigs goes abroad to study languages.

Screw the Public Fool System, which I stuck with like a good little boy, and which I'm still trying to get out of my system.
Title: Re: How can we convince more NH youths to drop out of government school?
Post by: John Edward Mercier on October 23, 2010, 10:34:24 am
Use to be  16 in NH with parental permission...
The constitutional requirements in NH are finished by 8th grade (13?)... secondary schools is something more modern.

Title: Re: How can we convince more NH youths to drop out of government school?
Post by: 10stateswithnh on October 25, 2010, 09:53:36 am
I have a brother who dropped out about 16 also - he didn't feel like wasting his time proving he knew stuff that he didn't need to learn, and wasn't interested in most of his classes. He did wind up completing high school (with some persuasion by us family members to get him to not drop out again, with an appeal to future job opportunities) at a local charter school that had an online program where he got to choose most of his courses and proceed at his own pace. He was almost 20 when he graduated, but that's ok - he is now 2 years + into college and finally chosen a major in one of his favorite subjects, horses.

If the constitutional requirements are fulfilled by the end of 8th grade, why couldn't we get a bill in to lower the mandatory education age to 14? It seems like most of the dropouts are after that anyway, and Japan is doing just fine educating their students with no mandatory high school.
Title: Re: How can we convince more NH youths to drop out of government school?
Post by: dude6935 on October 25, 2010, 03:03:23 pm
If the constitutional requirements are fulfilled by the end of 85th grade, why couldn't we get a bill in to lower the mandatory education age to 14? It seems like most of the dropouts are after that anyway, and Japan is doing just fine educating their students with no mandatory high school.

Lol at the "85th" grade. I hope they don't start keeping kids in school that long...  ;D
Title: Re: How can we convince more NH youths to drop out of government school?
Post by: John Edward Mercier on October 25, 2010, 03:45:25 pm
Completely possilbe to lower the mandatory age...
Not that I would guarantee passage... as the State has deep restrictions in other areas to push the 18 agenda.
Title: Re: How can we convince more NH youths to drop out of government school?
Post by: 10stateswithnh on October 26, 2010, 09:38:05 am
Sorry - fixed my typo. 8th grade, not 85th.  :)
Title: Re: How can we convince more NH youths to drop out of government school?
Post by: maxxoccupancy on October 26, 2010, 02:58:49 pm
To me, it's not about getting them out of the government schools as much as it is about getting to their parents and letting them know that public schools brainwash and dumb down their kids.  It's about reinforcing that whole freedom culture in New Hampshire.  I was able to disarm school officials and even teachers as a kid only because I had been warned ahead of time about this system.  It's only when they really understand the true intent of mass compulsory schooling that they start putting two and two together, you know what I mean.
Title: Re: How can we convince more NH youths to drop out of government school?
Post by: John Edward Mercier on October 26, 2010, 04:37:28 pm
So your suggesting that government schools only 'dumbed down' the others?