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FSP -- General Discussion => Prospective Participants => Topic started by: kyfornow on December 10, 2009, 12:44:48 pm

Title: I think I like the FSP
Post by: kyfornow on December 10, 2009, 12:44:48 pm
I like liberty activity, and I like what I see going on in NH, at least from what I see online.  But I don't think I like the FSP organization. 

So far my exposure to FSP particulars tells me that they are all nuveau riche, bureaucratic and have no grasp on what it is to make real sacrifice. 

I'm seeing that, aside from the factor of force, that the FSP is quite similar to government or to the organizational heirarchy of many silly corporations, rife with flaws and oversights.

I've received helpful feedback from many free staters and volunteers, but I'm not sure I am a fan of the FSP organization itself.

Title: Re: I don't think I like the FSP
Post by: PraeterIdiot on December 10, 2009, 01:11:16 pm
good thing then that the FSP organization isn't everything that there is to New Hampshire.

on the flip side of your "those rich people don't know what real sacrifice is," wouldn't a person like that have concern that the huddled masses don't know what it is to make a real sacrifice since they don't have anything to lose?  It's just as much a broad stroke as you make about people who are financially well-off or affluent in some other way that you either are not or perceive yourself to not be.

Title: Re: I don't think I like the FSP
Post by: kyfornow on December 10, 2009, 01:27:34 pm
good thing then that the FSP organization isn't everything that there is to New Hampshire.

on the flip side of your "those rich people don't know what real sacrifice is," wouldn't a person like that have concern that the huddled masses don't know what it is to make a real sacrifice since they don't have anything to lose?  It's just as much a broad stroke as you make about people who are financially well-off or affluent in some other way that you either are not or perceive yourself to not be.



You're absolutely right.  I could be perceived as being as guilty on the opposite end of that arguement as the people I accuse.  But I am also speaking of attitude as well.  I know a few people who are affluent in this community, who  are realistic and down to earth.  They are very generous people, and even though they are well-monied, seem to have a reasonable perspective that not everyone has the money, influence and resources that they have.  And even the ones who don't share their wealth with others or pay the people working for them above average, etc, they don't go through life with n artificial perspective on reality.
Title: Re: I don't think I like the FSP
Post by: time4liberty on December 10, 2009, 02:21:48 pm
Ky, the actual FSP organization is almost irrelevant to actual activism. They put on porcfest, and the liberty forum (both great events!), but the actual activism is done just by like minded people in an area working together, whether it be politically, for CD, or otherwise.

That is, the point of moving to NH is to be around a lot of other liberty activists, so that if you or they have an idea, you can get the manpower together to get something done -- and so you don't have to build all your activism up from scratch, but can plug into existing efforts.

The FSP organization is not at all involved with activism planning or execution -- it's just a tool to get people to move.

Also, there really is no single description for liberty activists in NH -- come up with a description, and there's probably someone that fits it. There are rich, poor, politicos, civdis types, agorists, constitutionalists, minarchists, voluntaryists, etc, as well as all different personality types and levels of commitment.
Title: Re: I don't think I like the FSP
Post by: rossby on December 10, 2009, 03:07:54 pm
So far my exposure to FSP particulars tells me that they are all nuveau riche, bureaucratic and have no grasp on what it is to make real sacrifice.

I haven't seen anyone respond in such a way to your posts.
Title: Re: I don't think I like the FSP
Post by: cathleeninnh on December 10, 2009, 05:04:46 pm
Gee, talk about left field. Have you met many of the board members, organizers or doers of the FSP?

Cathleen
Title: Re: I don't think I like the FSP
Post by: kyfornow on December 10, 2009, 05:44:48 pm
I did not refer to volunteers and such nor did I attack the fsp peoplem. I am merely stating that I am developing a strong impression that the fsp board is comprised of a whole different genre of people.  I don't have anything against them but if everyone was like them in the liberty movement I would assuredly find nobody with common interests or life expeiences. 
Title: Re: I don't think I like the FSP
Post by: rossby on December 10, 2009, 05:53:47 pm
I am merely stating that I am developing a strong impression that the fsp board is comprised of a whole different genre of people.

Genre of people? What's that mean?
Title: Re: I don't think I like the FSP
Post by: cathleeninnh on December 10, 2009, 06:01:40 pm
Those of us on the board are all volunteers and work with many other volunteers on the o-list and the doers list to bring liberty activists  to NH. What did you think we were?

Cathleen
Title: Re: I don't think I like the FSP
Post by: jeanius on December 10, 2009, 06:11:10 pm
And many of us (I'm a former board member) have moved to NH, in my husband's and my case from Oregon, uprooting our three children, and walking into a state I was completely unfamiliar with.  I've also spent many many many hours volunteering for the FSP.  The organization does pretty well overall for a group of people who don't get paid, get little applause, but do get complaints fairly regularly.  :)
Title: Re: I don't think I like the FSP
Post by: kyfornow on December 10, 2009, 06:24:43 pm
I'm reading about the board. And I see airline pilot. Lawyer ivy league professor. Etc. I'm not even sure I speak the same language.
Title: Re: I don't think I like the FSP
Post by: Jeff LaGrange on December 10, 2009, 06:36:46 pm
<----   Unemployed Student.   Military Reservist and multiple times combat vet.    Drive a '65 VW Bus.    Live in a single wide trailer.    Open to the idea of stregnth in diversity.     Willing to ask questions and learn a new language if necessary.  Hardly elite, hardly rich and not intimidated by those I perceive as more educated, better employed or more literate.   
Title: Re: I don't think I like the FSP
Post by: kyfornow on December 10, 2009, 07:02:46 pm
I know people with more education and/or more wealth than myself who do not manifest within pretention or who are not unnecessarily sophisticated.  And I'm not referring per se to people who feel the need to have servants and drink tea, but more to a demeanor. 

I'm most certainly not intiimidated by anyone for any reason but the question is will I be able to effectively comunicate on an interpersonal level with the fsp.  I am a person with ideas but I am a person of straight talk.  I don't fancy sitting in meetings or listening to politico speak. 

I also don't like inaction or when people disregard the need to do problem solving.  This happens in government, businesses, and nonprofits.
Title: Re: I don't think I like the FSP
Post by: ny2nh on December 10, 2009, 07:41:32 pm
Since you're only in your 20's, maybe you have issues with people who are more settled and more financially secure? Sure, Varrin is a pilot and Jason is a professor.....but that doesn't mean that they are or act pretentious...it just means they are successful in what they do. How is that a problem for you?
Title: Re: I don't think I like the FSP
Post by: rossby on December 10, 2009, 07:44:24 pm
I'm reading about the board. And I see airline pilot. Lawyer ivy league professor. Etc. I'm not even sure I speak the same language.

... looks like we're both speaking English.
Title: Re: I don't think I like the FSP
Post by: kyfornow on December 10, 2009, 07:57:22 pm
I'm reading about the board. And I see airline pilot. Lawyer ivy league professor. Etc. I'm not even sure I speak the same language.

... looks like we're both speaking English.


Hahaha I like that.

Maybe it's better said this way

People who become supervisors
Teachers who become administrators
Those who take or work their way to more prestigious positions most often seem to forget they were ever anything else. The transformation is usually miraculous and instantaneous. 

Title: Re: I don't think I like the FSP
Post by: RichW on December 10, 2009, 08:09:24 pm
The FSP is nothing more than what we the members make it.  If you want to change it, move, get involved, and volunteer to help out.  Perhaps then you can occupy a position of "power" in the organization.

Successful people are often found at the top of most organizations because they are achievers.  As you gain experience, you will find that there are many in this world who talk, but few who do.  It should not be surprising that those leading the FSP have achieved success in their careers.

I often see members who are frustrated with the direction of the FSP.  You must understand that there are only a limited number of dollars and volunteer man-hours that must be spread out amongst literally thousands of ideas.  If you have an idea about which you are excited, you may have to pursue it on your own or with a few others who share your enthusiasm.  That is just the way it is right now.  Eh, it seems to work out...we have nearly gotten to the half-way point of 10,000 members.  Some see the growth as below expectations.  I see it as utterly amazing...10,000 people willing to drop everything and move in order to live in freedom.  You yourself see how difficult that is, having land to sell and all.  Imagine how hard it is for those of us with a far greater number of entanglements.  IMHO, all those who have sacrificed a great deal of their personal time to make the FSP what it is deserve our thanks.
Title: Re: I don't think I like the FSP
Post by: rossby on December 10, 2009, 08:53:15 pm
Those who take or work their way to more prestigious positions most often seem to forget they were ever anything else. The transformation is usually miraculous and instantaneous. 

You're speaking in generalities and stereotypes and applying them to people in the FSP.

... have I offended you in some way or otherwise given you some reason to do so?
Title: Re: I don't think I like the FSP
Post by: "Hagrid" on December 10, 2009, 08:55:43 pm
I'm reading about the board. And I see airline pilot. Lawyer ivy league professor. Etc. I'm not even sure I speak the same language.

I suggest you learn to listen first.  If you met Varrin, you'd like him.  Jason too.  Cathleen is more down to earth than you, I suspect... but you just jumped to conclusions first, and spoke without finding out the facts.

There are plenty of reasons to 'dislike' the FSP, if you look for them... plenty of reasons to avoid making a commitment and working for liberty in your lifetime.
But funny enough, most people are looking for such a reason, so they don't have to make the move... easier to blame 'them' then 'me'
Title: Re: I don't think I like the FSP
Post by: Sovereign Curtis on December 10, 2009, 08:58:37 pm
Those who take or work their way to more prestigious positions most often seem to forget they were ever anything else. The transformation is usually miraculous and instantaneous. 

prestigious

FSP board

prestigious

lol
Title: Re: I don't think I like the FSP
Post by: Kate on December 10, 2009, 09:24:15 pm
You also don't see all the other people who volunteer tons of time each year.  
The computer programmers that keep the site working and improve it.
The people that return emails, phone calls and thank new signers when they join. ( We need more of these people.)
The people who write and send out press releases.
The people who staff events or go and hand out fliers all over the country.
The people that run meet up groups around the country.
Fund raisers,  It takes quite a bit of money to run the FSP.  Keep in mind we are not paid but need money to get our message out there.
People who work on advertising for the FSP.
taking orders for and shipping FSP merchandise.
I know I'm forgetting other things volunteers do for the FSP.

Liberty Forum and Porc Fest.  Each event takes dozens of volunteers each year to make these events happen.  
Each one takes a almost a year to put together.
The logistics of putting on a multi day event for 500 people is mind boggling.  

You need people to...
Make arrangement with the location and be the point person between the FSP and the location
Find speakers and make travel arrangements (Not easy try it sometime)
Making sure speakers have everything they need for their presentations
Plan activities find people to run them and make sure necessary equipment and supplies are available
Registration.  (You try and get 500 pro liberty people to do something the same way. ) from web site to badges to welcome packets
Handle getting and helping vendors at events
Organizing the team of volunteers helping at the event to make sure everything gets done and attendees are taken care of
Programs and the printing of everything needed for the events
T shirts and other logos and artwork used to promote the event
Finding sponsors (I wish we had more)
Getting the press to cover the event.
Find people to document the event film, photos, blogs etc....
Making arrangements for food at the events.
Firearm instructors and making arrangements to find somewhere to shoot
I'm sure I'm forgetting more unseen help.  
We get all sorts of people from every walk of life and at differnt points on the path to liberty to help put on these events each year.
We can't do it without everyone pitching in. From your smaller government republican to your no government anarchist and voluntarists.  

Often the people  doing all this work rarely get thanked and usually get complained at by people
 who have no idea what it is like to do the work that these people do for zero pay.  
Kate







Title: Re: I don't think I like the FSP
Post by: Pat K on December 11, 2009, 01:10:49 am
Varin you uppity bastard, stop pissing folk off will ya.
Title: Re: I don't think I like the FSP
Post by: freedomroad on December 11, 2009, 01:29:33 am
So far my exposure to FSP particulars tells me that they are all nuveau riche, bureaucratic and have no grasp on what it is to make real sacrifice. 

From what I've seen, the opposite is true.  I've meet 1000s of rich folks but only a few of them were part of the FSP.  Yet, I've met over 1000 folks that were/are part of the FSP.  As for no grasp on what it is to make real sacrifice, I've found the exact opposite.  Quite a few FSP folks have left their families, friends, and decent jobs behind.  Quite a few even move to NH without a job, and some don't even have a place to live when they first get to NH.

If leaving my family, friends, home, and decent job behind when moving to NH without a job, especially coming from a place which averages 5 inches of snow a year, isn't a real sacrifice, I'm not sure what is.  If spending 20-50 hours a week doing freedom activism without any pay isn't real sacrifice, I don't know what is.  Some people have given more than me.  Some people have left their spouse.  Some people are 1000s of miles from their children.  One guy lived in his truck for an entire winter.
Title: Re: I don't think I like the FSP
Post by: kyfornow on December 11, 2009, 02:35:01 am

I suggest you learn to listen first.

Perhaps it is you who is incapable of listening as the remainder of my response will indicate.

 
Quote
Cathleen is more down to earth than you, I suspect...

1) Are you implying here that you aren't down to earth
2) I wasn't trying to have a contest to prove I was more down to earth than someone else.  Would you like me to?
3) I never even said that the FSP board was comprised of bad people, but largely appeared to be a list of people I would likely not be able to mesh with.  But then this lies within the same line of logic as to why I can't mesh with a room full of conservative christians.  We're just not in the same sphere.



 
Quote
but you just jumped to conclusions first, and spoke without finding out the facts.

Again here, no conclusion jumping.  Perhaps what I will find by meeting some of these people firsthand will dispel these notions, and if they do I will gladly admit that I am highly incorrect.  But they are not conclusions that have been jumped to.  They are based on youtube videos, comments made on blogs, radio and podcasts, and in forums, not least of which is this one.


 
Quote
There are plenty of reasons to 'dislike' the FSP, if you look for them... plenty of reasons to avoid making a commitment and working for liberty in your lifetime.
But funny enough, most people are looking for such a reason, so they don't have to make the move... easier to blame 'them' then 'me'

If you were listening, while simultaneously accusing me of not listening, you will recall that I directed my concern at the FSP entity itself, and not the liberty movement.  I never designated my comments as to imply these concerns would sway me from an intention to move to NH. 

And just because I may develop a dislike for the FSP organization, it is not my enemy.  I would not hesitate to engage in volunteerism geared toward motivating people to move to NH or educating them on the potential of moving there. 
Title: Re: I don't think I like the FSP
Post by: kyfornow on December 11, 2009, 02:41:56 am
Those who take or work their way to more prestigious positions most often seem to forget they were ever anything else. The transformation is usually miraculous and instantaneous. 

You're speaking in generalities and stereotypes and applying them to people in the FSP.

... have I offended you in some way or otherwise given you some reason to do so?

I am not speaking in generalities, but in fact was referring to specific people or things I have observed.

You have certainly not offended me, nor was it my intention to do so.  I'm merely trying to iron some things out for myself.  I'm making this trip 2 weeks from tomorrow, and I want to know exactly what to expect to find.

Title: Re: I don't think I like the FSP
Post by: rossby on December 11, 2009, 03:09:20 am
I am not speaking in generalities, but in fact was referring to specific people or things I have observed.

You called me out in your list. What have you observed to believe I am "nouveau rich", bureaucratic, have no grasp of what it is to make real sacrifice, or don't speak the same language as you?

I'm merely trying to iron some things out for myself.  I'm making this trip 2 weeks from tomorrow, and I want to know exactly what to expect to find.

Cold weather--WEAR A HAT!

Beyond that, FSP-specific? Exactly? There's really no telling. Talk to as many porcs as you can.

Re: Kate's response. Had a thought. I've met a good number of porcs. Even when I disagree with them, I have a really hard time not getting along with most of them, generally speaking.

Re: Seth's response. His first statement about people looking for excuses rings pretty true. Some people do focus on reasons why they shouldn't be involved. That's sorta what your post sounded like because of the conjecture. That's probably where how he interpreted it and that's probably where he's coming from. (ahem. just a guess. don't let me put words in his mouth now...)
Title: Re: I don't think I like the FSP
Post by: Dreepa on December 11, 2009, 08:18:46 am
Those who take or work their way to more prestigious positions most often seem to forget they were ever anything else. The transformation is usually miraculous and instantaneous. 

You're speaking in generalities and stereotypes and applying them to people in the FSP.

... have I offended you in some way or otherwise given you some reason to do so?

I am not speaking in generalities, but in fact was referring to specific people or things I have observed.

You have certainly not offended me, nor was it my intention to do so.  I'm merely trying to iron some things out for myself.  I'm making this trip 2 weeks from tomorrow, and I want to know exactly what to expect to find.



Then you will love that the FSP board doesn't do much in NH (besides sponsor Porcfest and the Liberty Forum)

Once you are in NH... the FSP is 'what got you here'.

Title: Re: I don't think I like the FSP
Post by: Sovereign Curtis on December 11, 2009, 10:05:28 am
yallpostinginatrollthread.jpg
Title: Re: I don't think I like the FSP
Post by: kyfornow on December 11, 2009, 08:37:09 pm
I am not speaking in generalities, but in fact was referring to specific people or things I have observed.

You called me out in your list. What have you observed to believe I am "nouveau rich", bureaucratic, have no grasp of what it is to make real sacrifice, or don't speak the same language as you?

I'm merely trying to iron some things out for myself.  I'm making this trip 2 weeks from tomorrow, and I want to know exactly what to expect to find.

Cold weather--WEAR A HAT!

Beyond that, FSP-specific? Exactly? There's really no telling. Talk to as many porcs as you can.

Re: Kate's response. Had a thought. I've met a good number of porcs. Even when I disagree with them, I have a really hard time not getting along with most of them, generally speaking.

Re: Seth's response. His first statement about people looking for excuses rings pretty true. Some people do focus on reasons why they shouldn't be involved. That's sorta what your post sounded like because of the conjecture. That's probably where how he interpreted it and that's probably where he's coming from. (ahem. just a guess. don't let me put words in his mouth now...)

The fact is, I've never encountered a board of directors, or a board of anything, board of education, board of regents, etc who were not idealogues.  They use lots of words, come up with catchphrases, but have no real connection to their relevant demographic.  They're usually even very very nice people, but seem to be out of touch.

An example-  the place where I use to work with kids made me go to this stupid weeklong conference, calling it professional development.  It wasn't mandated by the state or anthing,  company just picked 4 of us and made us go.  I wanted to stay and help kids.  So we go to the conference and get to meet all the company bigwigs over this 2000 employee organization.  They were all very approachable people, and I walked up to several of them and had fairly good conversations.  But because they were corporate entities, they were clueless. 
The corporate office was state of the art, so they could accomodate large meetings, with big tvs and nice furniture.  And I kept telling people, instead of spending all this money on a state of the art office, or to send 400 employees to a conference, they could spend it on the kids AND we would be helping the kids more by being with them instead of at a silly conference for a week.  We're being treated to these buffet meals for a week, and getting all these nice gifts and extras for attending the conference, while my kids were still eating their crappy sysco food and some had never gotten a gift their entire life. 

The board and management meant well, or as our resident therapist always said, "The right notion but the wrong motion"

As far as calling you out, I reitterate that I never said I had any negative feeling toward you or anyone else. 

But I do have real concerns and real questions regarding the FSP (not complaints) because complaints are when you don't have solutions or suggestions to go along with your concerns.   I've talke to a lot of very nice and helpful people who already live in NH, warning me about things to prepare for and suggesting places to live, things to see when drive into the area.   Unless some drastic catastrophic thing in NH makes me never want to return ever again, I'm already sold on making the move.  But there's a word full of 6 billion people who aren't already aware of the idea. 
RE: cold weather, I'm bringing 2 hats thank you very much
Title: Re: I don't think I like the FSP
Post by: Floridian on December 11, 2009, 11:41:10 pm
I like liberty activity, and I like what I see going on in NH, at least from what I see online.  But I don't think I like the FSP organization. 

So far my exposure to FSP particulars tells me that they are all nuveau riche, bureaucratic and have no grasp on what it is to make real sacrifice. 

I'm seeing that, aside from the factor of force, that the FSP is quite similar to government or to the organizational heirarchy of many silly corporations, rife with flaws and oversights.

I've received helpful feedback from many free staters and volunteers, but I'm not sure I am a fan of the FSP organization itself.



These assertions are surprising.  Try not to be intimidated by the perfect grammar and spelling exhibited by the FSP leaders on this forum.   ;D
Title: Re: I don't think I like the FSP
Post by: rossby on December 12, 2009, 12:12:44 am
The fact is, I've never encountered a board of directors, or a board of anything, board of education, board of regents, etc who were not idealogues.  They use lots of words, come up with catchphrases, but have no real connection to their relevant demographic.  They're usually even very very nice people, but seem to be out of touch.

An example-  the place where I use to work with kids made me go to this stupid weeklong conference, calling it professional development...

How is that you're not applying generalities and stereotypes?

As far as calling you out, I reitterate that I never said I had any negative feeling toward you or anyone else. 

I did not say anything about you expressing negative feelings. I asked if I'd upset you.

You said people on the board don't speak the same language as you, that "particulars tells [you] that they are all nouveau rich, bureaucratic, and have no grasp on what it is to make real sacrifice."

What are these particulars? I don't know what document you were reading (i.e. whether it's current). But as far as I know I'm the only lawyer on the board of directors. Another board member also already commented above. As did a former board member. We're real people. You said you'd observed real things that you concerned you about the board. What?
Title: Re: I don't think I like the FSP
Post by: kyfornow on December 12, 2009, 01:57:13 am
I'll just leave it at this- I don't like not getting things done.  I don't like formalities, meetings, or not doing.  In fact, I'd prefer when I come to NH for 5 days for a "vacation", to help out with something in some way, while Ii'm there.  Obviously a guy can't do much while he's in town for that period of time and is spending much of it seeing certain towns and such, but even if I could engage in something for 5-6 hours of time I'd be satisfied.  Anything at all, no matter how simple.  It could be putting flyers on bulletin boards even.  Like I said I'll be coming in 12 days. 






Title: Re: I don't think I like the FSP
Post by: Sovereign Curtis on December 12, 2009, 08:26:15 am
I am not speaking in generalities, but in fact was referring to specific people or things I have observed.

You called me out in your list. What have you observed to believe I am "nouveau rich", bureaucratic, have no grasp of what it is to make real sacrifice, or don't speak the same language as you?

I'm merely trying to iron some things out for myself.  I'm making this trip 2 weeks from tomorrow, and I want to know exactly what to expect to find.

Cold weather--WEAR A HAT!

Beyond that, FSP-specific? Exactly? There's really no telling. Talk to as many porcs as you can.

Re: Kate's response. Had a thought. I've met a good number of porcs. Even when I disagree with them, I have a really hard time not getting along with most of them, generally speaking.

Re: Seth's response. His first statement about people looking for excuses rings pretty true. Some people do focus on reasons why they shouldn't be involved. That's sorta what your post sounded like because of the conjecture. That's probably where how he interpreted it and that's probably where he's coming from. (ahem. just a guess. don't let me put words in his mouth now...)

The fact is, I've never encountered a board of directors, or a board of anything, board of education, board of regents, etc who were not idealogues.

The fact is you havent met anyone on this board, so perhaps you should reserve judgment, eh?
Title: Re: I don't think I like the FSP
Post by: PraeterIdiot on December 12, 2009, 07:06:31 pm

The fact is, I've never encountered a board of directors, or a board of anything, board of education, board of regents, etc who were not idealogues.

The fact is you havent met anyone on this board, so perhaps you should reserve judgment, eh?

don't be so bureaucratic Curtis, you ideological Richer!
Title: Re: I don't think I like the FSP
Post by: kyfornow on December 12, 2009, 08:05:40 pm
I will say all of you have an amiable sense of humor!
Title: Re: I don't think I like the FSP
Post by: cathleeninnh on December 13, 2009, 10:08:51 am
After posting on your threads and trying to offer some of my own experiences and thoughts, I kind of felt like you had met me, so I was a little taken aback when you said we (the board) weren't to your liking.

We are real people with real feelings. And I know the work and sacrifice it takes to move away from all my loved ones with no possessions or a job. I like the activism going on here and some of my own activism is helping others make the decision to move here. I do that by being on the board of the FSP. I haven't seen any of those ivory towers around any of us.

Cathleen
Title: Re: I don't think I like the FSP
Post by: kyfornow on December 13, 2009, 11:02:46 am
Speaking to you, I am entirely and observably wrong. 

Most of what I was assessing was connected to people who's bios are listed in the organization section, but (and I didn't even realize you were the Cathleen on the board until you posted in this topic)

So ...

1) when I see the guy who created the concept of the FSP, he's a yale graduate, put that with the fact that he's teaching in NY, and he's not in NH.  If I were the guy who started something I'd be the first one to set foot in Nh and stay there.  Somebody commented that he was doing what he needed to do to take care of his family.  He could take care of his family in NH.  He might not make big bucks like he's going to get as a tenure track prof, but he'd make it.  Obviously others are making it.  It makes me think he's more concerned about his professional portfolio.

2) the current president- airline pilot, highly educated, excessive verbiage.  I just read his post looking for someone to shovel snow, and it read like a job description for a post-doctoral research associate in advanced political science.  I mean REALLY?  Now, it's his personal preference to ask for what he wants and how he wants it. That's what freedom is all about, but when I read his posts on here and then that one just took the cake, and theyre very sophisticated sounding.  But at least he's in NH


3) I've seen both of these two especially in youtube videos, interviews etc.  and they seem to carry themselves in an overly sophisticated way, and wearing suits and talking in a way that makes me want to locate the nearest redneck and listen to them speak, so I can balance out what I just heard.

4) The FSP website and all its stuff is copyrighted.  This to me is very bureaucratic and also seems to contradict the idea of a free state.  Something I had wanted to do, was going to do, and was pointing it out in the "Idea" post last night was, putting up flyers.  10,000 signers living all over the US and in a few other countries could add up to a lot of flyers in a lot of places.  But you know, I better read those disclaimers and prerequisites first. 
The fact is, I neither want nor need someone's permission or approval to do something, especially a non-profit organization that I neither work for or have any obligation to.
I would think the FSP would, like Freetalk live does, encourage everyone to post flyers everywhere.  But I better not, especially if I'm going to have the FSP logo on it.

5) You mentioned the phrase "Ivory tower"  which I have seen in posts here more than once.  I have read more than one post or observed more than one concern about these types of issues that I present, so I know I'm not the only one.  Now while I don't get the impression that any official FSP people believe they're superior to or better than anyone
I am observing all this separation, politico-speak, policies, formalities etc etc. 

I keep reittering that I'm not stating any of these people are bad people, or that the things connected to FSP are bad, just that they're bureaucractic and caught up in minutia and verbiage.  As I said, I don't like formalities, meetings bureacracy etc.  I prefer to do things.  I've even offered, for the 4 days I'm going to be in NH to help with anything I can while I'm checking out some towns and things I want to see.  Anybody that need help making signs, setting up for a gathering, anything I can help with I'll be glad to do it.  The nly vacation I've had in 10 years and it wouldn't bother me at all to spend it volunteering to assist other Porcs.
Title: Re: I don't think I like the FSP
Post by: JasonPSorens on December 13, 2009, 12:01:07 pm
1) when I see the guy who created the concept of the FSP, he's a yale graduate, put that with the fact that he's teaching in NY, and he's not in NH.  If I were the guy who started something I'd be the first one to set foot in Nh and stay there.  Somebody commented that he was doing what he needed to do to take care of his family.  He could take care of his family in NH.  He might not make big bucks like he's going to get as a tenure track prof, but he'd make it.  Obviously others are making it.  It makes me think he's more concerned about his professional portfolio.

 :D (Sorry, that bit made me chuckle.) My wife's a cancer survivor who can't work, so if I move to NH and become a janitor and lose my health insurance, that could be disastrous for us. Also, I can do more for liberty as a political scientist in NY than a janitor in NH. The goal, of course, is to be a political scientist in NH.
Title: Re: I don't think I like the FSP
Post by: kyfornow on December 13, 2009, 12:11:28 pm
1) when I see the guy who created the concept of the FSP, he's a yale graduate, put that with the fact that he's teaching in NY, and he's not in NH.  If I were the guy who started something I'd be the first one to set foot in Nh and stay there.  Somebody commented that he was doing what he needed to do to take care of his family.  He could take care of his family in NH.  He might not make big bucks like he's going to get as a tenure track prof, but he'd make it.  Obviously others are making it.  It makes me think he's more concerned about his professional portfolio.

 :D (Sorry, that bit made me chuckle.) My wife's a cancer survivor who can't work, so if I move to NH and become a janitor and lose my health insurance, that could be disastrous for us. Also, I can do more for liberty as a political scientist in NY than a janitor in NH. The goal, of course, is to be a political scientist in NH.

Allright, well then, I stand inexplicably wrong in this case, and what's more I owe you a direct and straightforward apology for such.  That would be a case of assuming, and I was 100% wrong. 


Just maybe, all of the things I'm seeing and reading and hearing are all or mostly misleading and you're all a decent bunch, unlike 99% of the people I have ever worked for/with/around or volunteered for/with/around.

Title: Re: I don't think I like the FSP
Post by: cathleeninnh on December 13, 2009, 02:04:57 pm
You are only wrong in that you lump the people in with organizational shortcomings. I don't like  a lot of things about organizations, but without some structure, there is no organization. We do what we can within the confines of that structure because gathering activists in NH is what is important. Getting here and living and working with so many lovers of liberty is awesome and overwhelming. I can't not help others get here, so I participate in some boring and nonfun (like my made up words?) activities like board meetings and endlessly verbose presidential e-mails (j/k Varrin, I love ya). I bite the bullet to get us closer and closer to that 20,000 number.


Cathleen
Title: Re: I don't think I like the FSP
Post by: Dreepa on December 13, 2009, 02:47:46 pm

3) I've seen both of these two especially in youtube videos, interviews etc.  and they seem to carry themselves in an overly sophisticated way, and wearing suits and talking in a way that makes me want to locate the nearest redneck and listen to them speak, so I can balance out what I just heard.


Depending on what you saw it may have been at the FSP Liberty Forum (www.freestateproject.org/libertyforum) were many people 'dress up' as it is a convention...or maybe it was the interview with John Stossell?
Title: Re: I don't think I like the FSP
Post by: rossby on December 13, 2009, 02:53:56 pm
3) I've seen both of these two especially in youtube videos, interviews etc.  and they seem to carry themselves in an overly sophisticated way, and wearing suits and talking in a way that makes me want to locate the nearest redneck and listen to them speak, so I can balance out what I just heard.

A suit is just cloth. I frequently wear a suit. But I much prefer a pair of jeans. A suit is "professional" wear. Like it or not, most people do judge you on your appearance. If you do not know them, it's wise to look presentable. For example, if you're appearing on television. I recall Jason did an interview on Judge Napolitano's FreedomWatch earlier this year. He wore a brown suit--and people HERE were "gently criticizing" him of that. C'mon. It's just cloth...

And I grew up in the north, went to college, and read a great deal: you going to criticize me if I speak in some "overly sophisticated way"? C'mon. This is like "urbanites" calling rednecks stupid because of the way they speak. Ever notice the animosity flows both ways between groups? I highly encourage you not to support these artificial divisions among us. :)

4) The FSP website and all its stuff is copyrighted.

The post you just wrote is copyrighted by you!

The fact is, I neither want nor need someone's permission or approval to do something, especially a non-profit organization that I neither work for or have any obligation to.
I would think the FSP would, like Freetalk live does, encourage everyone to post flyers everywhere.  But I better not, especially if I'm going to have the FSP logo on it.

There was actually some recent chatter here about that. People can use the FSP logo, etc. without getting any permission. You'll find some old threads here of people asking how to get permission (seriously, have a look around). Like most things in the FSP, it's rather informal. There are general objections to people using the FSP logo in two scenarios: (1) advertising the FSP within New Hampshire, and (2) when used by or relating to racist groups. Personally, I think the first one is silly. And I wish the latter one weren't "necessary"--and I doubt whether it's effective anyway--but I understand the concerns there (for example, there was a recent CNN piece on "militia-groups"--which the FSP is NOT. However, if you go look for that series, you'll see the MSM enjoys painting such "non-mainstream" politics as necessarily incorporating some element of racism. Doesn't make sense, but that's what they do.)

I am observing all this separation, politico-speak, policies, formalities etc etc. 

Politico-speak? Not sure why what you mean there, but many aspects of the FSP necessasrily involve politics at least tangentially, so that's not too surprising.
Policies & formalities? Absolutely. There are policies. We do collect donations from thousands of people. Therefore, we absolutely MUST take measures to know that money is being spent wisely and not wasted. And the FSP does a very good job of that. That said, the FSP is probably THE loosest run organization I've ever seen. That's not necessarily a bad thing either. Given its nature, that's a good thing.

Anybody that need help making signs, setting up for a gathering, anything I can help with I'll be glad to do it.  The nly vacation I've had in 10 years and it wouldn't bother me at all to spend it volunteering to assist other Porcs.

If I recall, you're visiting right between Xmas and New Years. Seems like a "bad time" for doing any substantial activism activities. Have you checked out freekeene.com? You might be able to find something going on there. (I can't believe i just plugged that site...)
Title: Re: I don't think I like the FSP
Post by: Sam A. Robrin on December 13, 2009, 03:10:02 pm
I like liberty activity, and I like what I see going on in NH, at least from what I see online.  But I don't think I like the FSP organization.

?  There's an organization . . . ?
Title: Re: I don't think I like the FSP
Post by: JasonPSorens on December 13, 2009, 03:13:43 pm
1) when I see the guy who created the concept of the FSP, he's a yale graduate, put that with the fact that he's teaching in NY, and he's not in NH.  If I were the guy who started something I'd be the first one to set foot in Nh and stay there.  Somebody commented that he was doing what he needed to do to take care of his family.  He could take care of his family in NH.  He might not make big bucks like he's going to get as a tenure track prof, but he'd make it.  Obviously others are making it.  It makes me think he's more concerned about his professional portfolio.

 :D (Sorry, that bit made me chuckle.) My wife's a cancer survivor who can't work, so if I move to NH and become a janitor and lose my health insurance, that could be disastrous for us. Also, I can do more for liberty as a political scientist in NY than a janitor in NH. The goal, of course, is to be a political scientist in NH.

Allright, well then, I stand inexplicably wrong in this case, and what's more I owe you a direct and straightforward apology for such.  That would be a case of assuming, and I was 100% wrong. 


Just maybe, all of the things I'm seeing and reading and hearing are all or mostly misleading and you're all a decent bunch, unlike 99% of the people I have ever worked for/with/around or volunteered for/with/around.

No worries! I think most of us are a decent bunch, just like most people. Hope to see you at Liberty Forum!
Title: Re: I don't think I like the FSP
Post by: ny2nh on December 13, 2009, 08:56:39 pm
I've seen both of these two especially in youtube videos, interviews etc.  and they seem to carry themselves in an overly sophisticated way, and wearing suits and talking in a way that makes me want to locate the nearest redneck and listen to them speak, so I can balance out what I just heard.

Heaven forbid.....well-spoken, good looking men in suits. :o

I'll make you a deal.....you can have your pick of the rednecks if I can have my pick of the well-spoken, good looking men in suits. ;)
Title: Re: I don't think I like the FSP
Post by: kyfornow on December 13, 2009, 09:59:33 pm
I've seen both of these two especially in youtube videos, interviews etc.  and they seem to carry themselves in an overly sophisticated way, and wearing suits and talking in a way that makes me want to locate the nearest redneck and listen to them speak, so I can balance out what I just heard.

Heaven forbid.....well-spoken, good looking men in suits. :o

I'll make you a deal.....you can have your pick of the rednecks if I can have my pick of the well-spoken, good looking men in suits. ;)

Well I'll pass on both accounts because

1) I'd only want women

2) Besides that I'd rather just find a job when I come to NH, they're not as much work :P
Title: Re: I don't think I like the FSP
Post by: kyfornow on December 13, 2009, 11:03:27 pm
Quote
And I grew up in the north, went to college, and read a great deal: you going to criticize me if I speak in some "overly sophisticated way"? C'mon. This is like "urbanites" calling rednecks stupid because of the way they speak. Ever notice the animosity flows both ways between groups? I highly encourage you not to support these artificial divisions among us. :)

The unfortunate aspect of this is that people do tend to gravitate to groups, and are most often xenophobic of outsiders. 


Quote
The post you just wrote is copyrighted by you!

The only problem with that is I don't believe in copyrights.

Quote
There was actually some recent chatter here about that. People can use the FSP logo, etc. without getting any permission. You'll find some old threads here of people asking how to get permission (seriously, have a look around). Like most things in the FSP, it's rather informal.

I actually intend to do this very thing myself as soon as I get back from my NH trip.  I’m going to make about 2-300 copies and keep them with me of some kind of FSP flyer (perhaps you have a generic one of some sort all ready to go) and I’m just going to put them on bulletin boards and at other eye-catching spots.  It’s inexpensive, probably won’t get a lot of hits, but even if it attracts ONE person’s attention, that’s one more than was gotten by doing nothing.


Quote
Politico-speak? Not sure why what you mean there, but many aspects of the FSP necessarily involve politics at least tangentially, so that's not too surprising.
Policies & formalities? Absolutely. There are policies. We do collect donations from thousands of people. Therefore, we absolutely MUST take measures to know that money is being spent wisely and not wasted. And the FSP does a very good job of that. That said, the FSP is probably THE loosest run organization I've ever seen. That's not necessarily a bad thing either. Given its nature, that's a good thing.

Fair enough. 


Quote
If I recall, you're visiting right between Xmas and New Years. Seems like a "bad time" for doing any substantial activism activities. Have you checked out freekeene.com? You might be able to find something going on there. (I can't believe i just plugged that site...)

Yes, this I know, but I am limited to that week.  Hopefully the next time I come to NH , it will be a one way trip.



All right so it appears the FSP isn’t so bad after all.  All of you provide more than reasonable demonstration to eradicate my concerns.  Even the things I don’t necessarily agree with, I can fully understand where they come from.


Anybody need help?
Title: Re: I don't think I like the FSP
Post by: ny2nh on December 14, 2009, 06:53:58 am
Heaven forbid.....well-spoken, good looking men in suits. :o

I'll make you a deal.....you can have your pick of the rednecks if I can have my pick of the well-spoken, good looking men in suits. ;)

Well I'll pass on both accounts because

1) I'd only want women

2) Besides that I'd rather just find a job when I come to NH, they're not as much work :P

There is no distinction that rednecks are all men...there are plenty of redneck women, too.
Title: Re: I don't think I like the FSP
Post by: Dreepa on December 14, 2009, 07:31:05 am


I actually intend to do this very thing myself as soon as I get back from my NH trip.  I’m going to make about 2-300 copies and keep them with me of some kind of FSP flyer (perhaps you have a generic one of some sort all ready to go) and I’m just going to put them on bulletin boards and at other eye-catching spots.  It’s inexpensive, probably won’t get a lot of hits, but even if it attracts ONE person’s attention, that’s one more than was gotten by doing nothing.




This is a great idea.
I do this often when I am not in NH.
I have 2 sets of flyers.

FSP flyers that I put out in 'political' places
and FTL flyers that I put out in other places.

and you are right... I only have to get it to one person.  (who may in turn pass it to others... that is how I found out about the FSP 5 years ago)
Title: Re: I don't think I like the FSP
Post by: Sovereign Curtis on December 14, 2009, 12:27:31 pm
Quote
And I grew up in the north, went to college, and read a great deal: you going to criticize me if I speak in some "overly sophisticated way"? C'mon. This is like "urbanites" calling rednecks stupid because of the way they speak. Ever notice the animosity flows both ways between groups? I highly encourage you not to support these artificial divisions among us. :)


The unfortunate aspect of this is that people do tend to gravitate to groups, and are most often xenophobic of outsiders. 

Outsiders? You mean such as yourself? [/thread]