Free State Project Forum

FSP -- General Discussion => Prospective Participants => Topic started by: hockeymatt on November 12, 2009, 11:31:17 pm

Title: Why only 776
Post by: hockeymatt on November 12, 2009, 11:31:17 pm
I'm VERY interested in the FSP, but after browsing the site I'm trying to find out why after 6 years there just don't seem to be the numbers you were hoping for?

Is it that people want to move, but can't or don't have the will?

Is it the weather, is it that NH has some sort of strange 2 headed girl that we have to arm wrestle?

What's up...
Title: Re: Why only 776
Post by: maxxoccupancy on November 13, 2009, 12:37:03 am
Check out the "Which State" debate and how many people argued that an Eastern state (especially a New England state) would never pull 20,000 movers.  All of those things have come to pass.  Here are more that weren't anticipated (or were mentioned by just a few):

-wish washy people.  A lot of the more recent prospective movers have been generating excuses faster than we can respond to them. 

-Some of us are trying to sell/recruit, while others are saying who needs them.

-jobs.  Out west, jobs go to the most qualified.  In New England, jobs go to friends of friends, family, etc.

-cold.  Most prospective movers don't know about (or don't believe) the weather here on the seacoast.  It's really not bad.  We only have about 2-3 months on the coast that are worse than jacket weather.

-family.  Split custody, sick parents, girlfriends/spouses, etc.  These are all valid reasons, and some people can't leave family behind.

-medical.  Extreme cold, access to specialists, and other issues keep people bound to one area.

-age.  For various reasons, we have very few older movers.  By far, most of the new movers have been couples, families, and individuals between 20-45, most at the age where they're looking to settle down somewhere permanently.

-moving back out.  Many porcs have moved here only to leave.  Some leave for just a few months, while others intend to leave for good.  Some have become disgruntled about the movement, while others just lose interest.

-do-nothings.  Or folks who do very little.  Many of the folks who move here never lift a finger to do any recruiting.  It's one of the most unusual things to see, in my opinion. 

-introversion.  Most libertarians are intellectual and/or introverted.  They are either not too comfortable talking to strangers or they speak so many levels beyond John Q. Public that they never quite click with people.

-internal fighting and arguing.  This one was predicted from the get go, but not on the scale that we've seen.  Literally every effort I've seen by new folks to identify and solve problems has been met with angry flame wars and personal attacks.  Many problems persist within the effort that cannot be solved because they are never even accepted by members.

-members are not members.  Only the FSP Board has any say in the organization.  Movers are not considered "members," and have no vote or say in anything that FSP Corp. does.  This is not a member owned organization.

-substance abuse.  Drinking (and other drugs) have been a major issue, in my opinion.  Some folks have taken this to excess, and it inhibits their drive to do anything but hold the occasional sign or attend the occasional event.  I am drinking a Blue Moon while writing this, so whatever, eh.

Basically, we don't have a winning, cohesive, united organization.  Numerous attempts have been made to get lots of people behind a strategy, but you usually here something like, "You don't have a right to be dictator!" or "Everyone can just do what they want to." There are lots of strategies that would be successful (recruiting, free town projects, State House stuff) that have failed because the fsp is like ten year olds playing soccer.  Lots of kids are running after the ball, but there's no cohesive strategy.  The Board doesn't really consult the membership like winning teams do, and most folks in the movement don't believe in majority rule, anyway.

In other words, there's no pledge on pledgebank saying, "I'll agree to commit X hours a week to winning strategy Y, but only if 99 other people agree to do the same." If you suggest something like that, instead of getting input or discussion, you get something like, "Okay, FSP Mover XXX, why don't YOU do it."

That's why the counter is still in three digits.
Title: Re: Why only 776
Post by: rossby on November 13, 2009, 01:04:56 am
No one is obligated to move until there is a total of 20,000 participants signed up, after which they have 5 years to move. Right now, the counter is just under the 50% mark. The Early Movers are exactly that: early. 'Course, just 700-ish have made some pretty big waves.

How do you get 20,000 people to pick up their lives and move from all over the country (and the world) to one spot? That's tough. Just my personal opinion, if it took 20 years, it'd still be amazing.

-I can think of at least 20 people off-hand who would like to move, but directly cite the poor economy as an obstacle.

-For some people, it takes a looong time to arrange a serious move (like myself).


Some time in the next 2-3 years, I'd like to see a "mover kit" put together. :)
Title: Re: Why only 776
Post by: rossby on November 13, 2009, 01:28:25 am
Check out the "Which State" debate and how many people argued that an Eastern state (especially a New England state) would never pull 20,000 movers.

You're such a negative norman! How's FSW doing? ::)


Basically, we don't have a winning, cohesive, united organization.

(@ at Hockeymatt) The FSP doesn't really do political things. It doesn't get involved in activism. It doesn't tell the participants what to do. The FSP is not a political party with an agenda (though some people might prefer it to be). There is no way for the FSP to "win"--except to get 20,000 people to pledge to move to New Hampshire for smaller government.

There's a saying that "the FSP is the bus" to get to New Hampshire. People seem to have their own ideas about the best ways to go about things. Some are more successful than others.
Title: Re: Why only 776
Post by: maxxoccupancy on November 13, 2009, 01:57:36 am
That's my answer to the OP.  I've been at this for about seven years, and the problems have pretty much been the same throughout.  Those, as I see it, are basically the reasons that we haven't been able to turn slow growth into rapid growth.  If you try to diagnose and solve problems, you get a lot more negativity than positive results.

Teams succeed, and we are not a team.  I don't see much interest in getting a team together, so most folks will continue to do their own thing, and we'll keep getting the same growth rate.

Is that negative, or just rational?

Anyway, that's why I dedicate most of my time to just recruiting and helping new folks get into New Hampshire.
Title: Re: Why only 776
Post by: maxxoccupancy on November 13, 2009, 02:12:51 am
BD, you haven't moved yet?  WTF?  New Hampshire is where it's at, dude.  You need to be here trolling--not in some random state out there where there are no other debatatarians to talk to.  Just last Tuesday, there were like 40 people at Taproom.  This is where it's at, bud.  New Hampshire is the center of it all.

Be here, or be... uh, not... free.

Do'h!
Title: Re: Why only 776
Post by: hockeymatt on November 13, 2009, 03:13:51 am
Thanks for your response and the accompanying debate.

It looks like FSP needs leaders...without them you are just another attractive voting bloc for politicians.

The excuses for some people not moving seem to be just that....excuses.  Obviously, these seem to cement my lack of faith in the majority of Americans to accept responsibility to better themselves.  Most NOT all, just want white teeth, starbucks in the morning and a good show at night on the TV.  That is their right, but obviously that is why our country seems to be decaying right at this very moment.

I guess its just the Marine in me that is disappointed to see what is happening to the country I thought was worth defending, but the apathy people have is astonishing....sad

I commend you for your work and the challenge you have.
Title: Re: Why only 776
Post by: maxxoccupancy on November 13, 2009, 03:17:58 am
Join us here in the Live Free or Die state.  The folks who've made the move left the apathetic excuse makers behind.  Those of us who are here are involved in state and local politics, educating and speaking out.  We're recruiting, writing Op-Eds, getting on public access, exposing corruption and abuses, and getting bad pols fired.

There are some bad dudes in politics, and they are getting their asses handed to them on a silver platter with each new election.
Title: Re: Why only 776
Post by: FreeStyle on November 13, 2009, 06:16:37 am
I've wondered that myself.  Some of the reasons maxx gave are good, some aren't.  I'll be up very shortly.  I expect to close next week.
Title: Re: Why only 776
Post by: Floridian on November 13, 2009, 06:39:33 am

I guess its just the Marine in me that is disappointed to see what is happening to the country I thought was worth defending, but the apathy people have is astonishing....sad
 

Listen up devil dog.  :) That's exactly what the other side wants you to think.  We are not going to win the culture war with that attitude. Now is not the time to give up. 

Read the statement of intent again.  The mission and intent are clear.  I imagine that the founders of this movement are disappointed that the overall progress is slower than hoped, but it is still moving in the right direction.  From what I have heard, there are a lot of people who move to be a part of the liberty movement, but do not sign up with FSP; this probably offsets the Free Staters who leave NH.  Given the national political climate these days, ever more statist, there is a building backlash that will probably increase FSP participation.




Title: Re: Why only 776
Post by: lunchbox on November 13, 2009, 08:07:09 am
I find the 700+ that have moved already to be a great sign.

The fact is, no one is "obligated" to actually move until 20000 people have made the same decision to sign up.

Title: Re: Why only 776
Post by: Dreepa on November 13, 2009, 08:08:11 am
Some of Max's points are valid.. others aren't.

There is no unified team here on the ground...because you can't with so many 'individuals'.

I think that mostly is because people are COMMITTED to move until we get 20K signers.  Even then there will be some people not moving.
Of the 9K who signed up... basically you have to commit to moving and then the rest will fall into place... at least get the PLAN to move.... even if it takes a few years to execute.

With only 700ish people on the ground we are making headway.. lots and lots of natives.

Come up and join us.

Everyone who is thinking of joining should visit in March www.freestateproject.org/libertyforum.
Title: Re: Why only 776
Post by: creaganlios on November 13, 2009, 08:27:27 am
I think it's also important to note that some of us got very excited very early and made the move even before the state was chosen...like me, so we don't count :-(
Title: Re: Why only 776
Post by: maxxoccupancy on November 13, 2009, 10:31:28 am
I've wondered that myself.  Some of the reasons maxx gave are good, some aren't.  I'll be up very shortly.  I expect to close next week.

I've been doing recruiting for seven years, now, so these are the issues that keep repeating themselves.

Thom S, you can still sign up for the Next 1,000, as long as you're becoming a liberty activist here because of fsp.  If you moved early or late, it doesn't matter.

None of the original signers are committed because there was a time limit built in to the original pledge that only applied, IIRC, if we got 20,000 signers within five years.  That point came and went a long time ago, so the original pledge was meaningless.

As for the need for teamwork, some recognize the need for it, others eschew it.  Some are emphatic about everyone being required to operate separately.  No one states this as a "requirement," of course, but the emphatic rejection has been there.  Some efforts require more than 40 hours a week of activism in order to succeed.  Some projects require more time, money, and effort than one person can reasonably be expected to put forth.  It makes it difficult to put teams together when there are so many who interrupt the process of getting a team together and loudly insist that, "You can't just be dictator and tell everyone what to do!"

It may seem like I exaggerate, but that's an oft heard quote.  Many of us who've tried to organize efforts have become disenchanted by the whole herding housecats routine.

Try identifying and solving problems within the fsp, and I think you'll see why it's so difficult to get anything done.  You're better off just getting involved with locals.  That's what I do.
Title: Re: Why only 776
Post by: anon37268573 on November 13, 2009, 10:46:27 am
Check out the "Which State" debate and how many people argued that an Eastern state (especially a New England state) would never pull 20,000 movers.  All of those things have come to pass.  Here are more that weren't anticipated (or were mentioned by just a few):

I think you forgot the most important item that has had the deepest impact - the economy.  Many people own homes in other states that they haven't been able to sell.  There are some people out there who have been trying to sell a home and move since 2006.  Even if people are able to sell their home in another state, it's very difficult to find a job right now beyond a minimum wage type position.  And, that just doesn't cut it for a family of three or four.

I think once an economic and jobs recovery starts taking place (2013-2014 probably) we'll see a ton of new movers in very rapid succession.

For now, I think we should spend less time on recruiting and trying to get people to sign up and move and focus on trying to fix the legislative things that make New Hampshire unattractive.  For example, I think we should work on trying to get some bills passed to make it easer to form corporations so that it's not so difficult for people to move, start small businesses, and hire other others who want to move as part of the free state project.   Vermont is currently kicking New Hampshire's ass when it comes to the difficulty involved in get a company incorporated and operating. 

Yes, that's right, a bunch of socialist are kicking our ass at capitalism... brutally!!!


   - anon


Title: Re: Why only 776
Post by: John Edward Mercier on November 13, 2009, 10:59:41 am
What would you like changed in the RSAs for incorporation?
I think the LSRs have already been entered for this session, but if you could narrow it down and define it... the next cycle comes around rather quickly.
Title: Re: Why only 776
Post by: maxxoccupancy on November 13, 2009, 11:14:44 am
anon233456, you are dead right about the need to focus on changing things in state.  I have just been saying that we only need 12-1500 political activists to turn the state around.  Trying to enlist some of the non-voters and non-doers in this has proven untenable.

What I'm saying about difficulties in recruiting, however, were problems even when the economy was in great shape.  I have heard the many reasons folks have given for not making the move.  Just as bad, I've seen many people make the move, then become as immobile as Jabba the Hut.  It's really tough heading out there all the time to pick up litter, testify in the State House, write letters to the editors, and speak out at local public meetings when there are so many who stay at home playing online MMORPG's.  There are tons of opportunities to get locals and prospective movers out to these events--i.e., recruiting.

Aside from the low taxes, New Hampshire really isn't that probusiness.  Like it or not, most developers and business owners would rather write checks than wade through red tape.  A business development that is delayed by six months may lose millions in business because of the litigation and bureaucratic hoopla that they have to jump through.
Title: Re: Why only 776
Post by: doobie on November 13, 2009, 02:38:02 pm
Need a Freestater with a good business plan that can employee people in great numbers and be compatible with protesting.  I can't get off on Wednesday's to go to the statehouse 96% of the time or otherwise help out with other action times that occur during the day or early evenings.
Title: Re: Why only 776
Post by: maxxoccupancy on November 13, 2009, 02:54:50 pm
Wow, getting off topic, but ok.

More and more IT/tech folks have been talking about putting together a liberty IT/engineering/web development team.  The issue seems to come up at every event.  We have a lot of technical people interested in doing this, but there has been a shortage of business/management/accounting folks.

We'll be talking about the idea at the next Movie Night Sunday here at my place in Seabrook, for folks wanting to come out.  I've been scoping out the area for office space.  That shouldn't be too difficult, at the moment.
Title: Re: Why only 776
Post by: rossby on November 13, 2009, 03:13:05 pm
That's my answer to the OP.  I've been at this for about seven years, and the problems have pretty much been the same throughout.  Those, as I see it, are basically the reasons that we haven't been able to turn slow growth into rapid growth.  If you try to diagnose and solve problems, you get a lot more negativity than positive results.

...

Is that negative, or just rational?

Anyway, that's why I dedicate most of my time to just recruiting and helping new folks get into New Hampshire.

Take it with a grain of salt. :) I mean who the hell says "negative norman"? I think you hit a number of issues, and the first step to solving a problem is to identify it. The drug one I'd never heard about. I guess I was confused by the tone, e.g. "many porcs" have left? I guess I hadn't caught wind of some mass exodus. For each point you identify, do you have a solution to suggest? It doesn't have to work. But "we" can sure use a lot more options.

BD, you haven't moved yet?  WTF?  New Hampshire is where it's at, dude.

The State of New Hampshire makes it very difficult for me to get a license in my field of work. That, and I was a passenger in a nasty car accident earlier this summer, which delayed my plans. I'll see ya'll in February.

I guess its just the Marine in me that is disappointed to see what is happening to the country I thought was worth defending, but the apathy people have is astonishing....sad

As a Marine, you know that genuine leadership is not run by a democratic process. One can only lead people to the extent they implicitly agree or are inspired to be led. Defined goals help. That is something the FSP does not create, because different participants think there should be "vastly different" goals and cannot agree upon the methods to achieve them. And as libertarians (broadly defined) people fight tooth-and-nail for their ideas and principles. As they should.

In actuality however, the various goals aren't that terribly far apart. There is no place ANYWHERE in the world where there are enough people meaingfully gathered (and planning to gather) to work for smaller, more efficient, peaceful government--regardless of the form it will take, or if at all. Many Americans think that'd be a good idea, but they don't have the cajones to make pay the personal costs to make it happen. Personally, I conceptualize that as the initial obstacle that the FSP's non-organization overcomes. And it does a fairly good job of remaining neutral on political positions so that any initial in-fighting won't tear the "migration" itself apart. That's just my personal opinion.

Wow, getting off topic, but ok.

More and more IT/tech folks have been talking about putting together a liberty IT/engineering/web development team.  The issue seems to come up at every event.  We have a lot of technical people interested in doing this, but there has been a shortage of business/management/accounting folks.

Goddammit, no more of this "have been talking about" crap! I've been hearing about it for years. Are you gonna do it or not?

Who's involved? Write the names down. What services can you provide? Write them down. Who are your customers? Write some done. If ya'll are done talking and ready to get serious, get a plan going. Write it down. Call me when you don't know what to do next, and I'll be happy to put the boot to you, medium-style.
Title: Re: Why only 776
Post by: Dreepa on November 13, 2009, 03:35:32 pm

  You're better off just getting involved with locals.  That's what I do.

which is what people SHOULD be doing....learning from the locals.
Title: Re: Why only 776
Post by: Dreepa on November 13, 2009, 03:36:01 pm

For now, I think we should spend less time on recruiting and trying to get people to sign up and move and focus on trying to fix the legislative things that make New Hampshire unattractive.  For example, I think we should work on trying to get some bills passed to make it easer to form corporations so that it's not so difficult for people to move, start small businesses, and hire other others who want to move as part of the free state project.   Vermont is currently kicking New Hampshire's ass when it comes to the difficulty involved in get a company incorporated and operating. 




nhliberty.org

post it there...
Title: Re: Why only 776
Post by: Dreepa on November 13, 2009, 03:38:11 pm

Goddammit, no more of this "have been talking about" crap! I've been hearing about it for years. Are you gonna do it or not?


they are libertarians they like to talk about it. ;D
Title: Re: Why only 776
Post by: maxxoccupancy on November 13, 2009, 03:40:32 pm
"Have been talking about it"

Okay, well we're going to talk about it some more at Movie Night Sunday this weekend, so there.  We've had an easy time getting tech people interested, but a tougher time getting business/accounting/management type folks involved.

It's just tough trying to get input from so many different people attending so many different events.  Everyone has a different opinion on how to proceed.  Should we put the website together first?  Should we just use jeffersonforum.net for the discussion?  We've got a Child Board at jf.n for those who are interested in the project.

Just leave your two cents there.

Hope to see you in Feb, brah.
Title: Re: Why only 776
Post by: rossby on November 13, 2009, 04:02:32 pm
I tried to reg. over there last week (i think) but it said sign-ups were closed.
Title: Re: Why only 776
Post by: maxxoccupancy on November 13, 2009, 04:14:35 pm
jeffersonforum.net should be fixed, now.  It's just an automatic sign up and email activation.  I've heard a couple of people complain that the sign up didn't work, so I've got back in to the admin section and redone it.

I'll get Movie Night Sunday posted there, also.  That should get some more folks out to my place that night.

I've invited lots of Mass liberty folks up here, so who knows--we may get that counter moving again, eh.
Title: Re: Why only 776
Post by: rossby on November 13, 2009, 05:40:07 pm
jeffersonforum.net should be fixed, now.  It's just an automatic sign up and email activation.  I've heard a couple of people complain that the sign up didn't work, so I've got back in to the admin section and redone it.

Still doesn't go past the user registration page for me. On submit, says registration is disabled.
Title: Re: Why only 776
Post by: maxxoccupancy on November 13, 2009, 05:52:26 pm
Okay, that should fix it.  There was a backlog of unregistered folks.  I've installed some cool packages, but they can sometimes cause admin type problems.
Title: Re: Why only 776
Post by: rossby on November 13, 2009, 06:25:44 pm

Goddammit, no more of this "have been talking about" crap! I've been hearing about it for years. Are you gonna do it or not?


they are libertarians they like to talk about it. ;D

Talk is good; do is better.
Title: Re: Why only 776
Post by: creaganlios on November 13, 2009, 06:54:53 pm
For now, I think we should spend less time on recruiting and trying to get people to sign up and move and focus on trying to fix the legislative things that make New Hampshire unattractive.  For example, I think we should work on trying to get some bills passed to make it easer to form corporations so that it's not so difficult for people to move, start small businesses, and hire other others who want to move as part of the free state project.   Vermont is currently kicking New Hampshire's ass when it comes to the difficulty involved in get a company incorporated and operating. 

Yes, that's right, a bunch of socialist are kicking our ass at capitalism... brutally!!!

Anon, I have to disagree with that.  In March of 2007 I had a dream about opening up a bar/restaurant.  By June 1, my staff was hired, I had my liquor license, my health permit, my incorporation, my EIN, my bank accounts, my staff, my Food & Beverage Tax Number and pay-by-internet tax account, my alcohol vendors secured, had gone through the liquor sales training course, had received state variances for outdoor sales and number of days open, received an occupancy permit from the local fire chief and support of the Selectboard.

Try doing all that in 3 months in any other state.
Title: Re: Why only 776
Post by: rossby on November 13, 2009, 07:24:30 pm
For now, I think we should spend less time on recruiting and trying to get people to sign up and move and focus on trying to fix the legislative things that make New Hampshire unattractive.  For example, I think we should work on trying to get some bills passed to make it easer to form corporations so that it's not so difficult for people to move, start small businesses, and hire other others who want to move as part of the free state project.   Vermont is currently kicking New Hampshire's ass when it comes to the difficulty involved in get a company incorporated and operating. 

Yes, that's right, a bunch of socialist are kicking our ass at capitalism... brutally!!!

Anon, I have to disagree with that.  In March of 2007 I had a dream about opening up a bar/restaurant.  By June 1, my staff was hired, I had my liquor license, my health permit, my incorporation, my EIN, my bank accounts, my staff, my Food & Beverage Tax Number and pay-by-internet tax account, my alcohol vendors secured, had gone through the liquor sales training course, had received state variances for outdoor sales and number of days open, received an occupancy permit from the local fire chief and support of the Selectboard.

Try doing all that in 3 months in any other state.

Except for the liquor compliance (and the variances), you can do that in most states. New Hampshire has a few provisions that are pointless, and the state easily loses hundreds of thousands of dollars (potentially more) in revenue each year because of it.

What happened to this bar/restaurant?
Title: Re: Why only 776
Post by: creaganlios on November 13, 2009, 07:44:10 pm
Except for the liquor compliance (and the variances), you can do that in most states. New Hampshire has a few provisions that are pointless, and the state easily loses hundreds of thousands of dollars (potentially more) in revenue each year because of it.

What happened to this bar/restaurant?

Ah, but the liquor license, compliances, and variances ARE the keys...it was incredibly easy here compared, to say, our neighbor to the south, where each town is limited to the number of liquor licenses it can issue...and where variances can take years.  And as for my home state of New York - "the least free state," it's a world of difference.

As for the bar/restaurant, I went in with a busines partner and we had significant, shall we say,  'artistic' differences -  so I sold him my half in March 2008. 
Title: Re: Why only 776
Post by: rossby on November 13, 2009, 07:48:38 pm
Except for the liquor compliance (and the variances), you can do that in most states. New Hampshire has a few provisions that are pointless, and the state easily loses hundreds of thousands of dollars (potentially more) in revenue each year because of it.

What happened to this bar/restaurant?

Ah, but the liquor license, compliances, and variances ARE the keys...

For that particular type of business perhaps. But they aren't key to most businesses.

As for the bar/restaurant, I went in with a busines partner and we had significant, shall we say,  'artistic' differences -  so I sold him my half in March 2008. 

If at first you don't succeed...
Title: Re: Why only 776
Post by: creaganlios on November 13, 2009, 08:10:58 pm
Agreed.  I meant "that particualr type of business."   

I should add that we were the venue for the Sunday afternoon Keene FSPer meetups :-)
Title: Re: Why only 776
Post by: maxxoccupancy on November 13, 2009, 09:29:28 pm
Point being that there have been plenty of mistakes, bad assumptions, misused resources, and top down management.  The leadership should, IMO, get behind grass roots efforts that the actual mover activists are doing, but they have come up with their own projects, so they can do their own thing.

In recruiting folks, I have encountered those problems--but the biggest, IMO, is the preference for arguing to problem solving.
Title: Re: Why only 776
Post by: rossby on November 13, 2009, 09:42:24 pm
The leadership should, IMO, get behind grass roots efforts that the actual mover activists are doing, but they have come up with their own projects, so they can do their own thing.

The "leadership"? Those "actual mover activists" who are doing are the leadership. Get behind them! ;D

(btw, jeffersonforum.net reg is still broken as of about 4:00 PM EST)
Title: Re: Why only 776
Post by: John Edward Mercier on November 14, 2009, 04:04:14 am
anon233456, you are dead right about the need to focus on changing things in state.  I have just been saying that we only need 12-1500 political activists to turn the state around.  Trying to enlist some of the non-voters and non-doers in this has proven untenable.

What I'm saying about difficulties in recruiting, however, were problems even when the economy was in great shape.  I have heard the many reasons folks have given for not making the move.  Just as bad, I've seen many people make the move, then become as immobile as Jabba the Hut.  It's really tough heading out there all the time to pick up litter, testify in the State House, write letters to the editors, and speak out at local public meetings when there are so many who stay at home playing online MMORPG's.  There are tons of opportunities to get locals and prospective movers out to these events--i.e., recruiting.

Aside from the low taxes, New Hampshire really isn't that probusiness.  Like it or not, most developers and business owners would rather write checks than wade through red tape.  A business development that is delayed by six months may lose millions in business because of the litigation and bureaucratic hoopla that they have to jump through.
You mean like developing a retail location in Seabrook?
Title: Re: Why only 776
Post by: John Edward Mercier on November 14, 2009, 04:22:27 am
Back on subject.

1. Is the counter accurate? Has everyone that moved been counted (most likely some did not update).
2. The SOI number should be the one most considered, while the accomplishments of the early movers might be given more PR.

As a native, I'm very aware of those things that were here before... and those things the early movers played a significant role in.
The most noted being the actual change in legislative mindset.
Title: Re: Why only 776
Post by: maxxoccupancy on November 14, 2009, 10:56:42 am
The leadership should, IMO, get behind grass roots efforts that the actual mover activists are doing, but they have come up with their own projects, so they can do their own thing.

The "leadership"? Those "actual mover activists" who are doing are the leadership. Get behind them! ;D

(btw, jeffersonforum.net reg is still broken as of about 4:00 PM EST)

I am a mover-activist.  I was something like mover number 40, and would have been here even sooner had I not been on a ship for several months.  Problems that I've mentioned are from years of experience recruiting folks--or attempting to do so.  I've used the term "leadership" to refer to the FSP Board, President, and various coordinators and such.  Others mentioned some kind of disconnect between the mover-activists and the "leadership" early on.  I was late seeing it, and finally started seeing the problems it was creating with the whole Next 1,000 vs. Personal Triggers deal.

I'll get right on jeffersonforum.net and see if I can get those issues fixed.  If not, I'll just upgrade the software again and go from there.

I don't know if the Board is still promoting Personal Triggers or not.  The activists are doing their own thing.
Title: Re: Why only 776
Post by: rossby on November 14, 2009, 11:36:30 am
The leadership should, IMO, get behind grass roots efforts that the actual mover activists are doing, but they have come up with their own projects, so they can do their own thing.

The "leadership"? Those "actual mover activists" who are doing are the leadership. Get behind them! ;D

(btw, jeffersonforum.net reg is still broken as of about 4:00 PM EST)

Problems that I've mentioned are from years of experience recruiting folks--or attempting to do so.  I've used the term "leadership" to refer to the FSP Board, President, and various coordinators and such.  Others mentioned some kind of disconnect between the mover-activists and the "leadership" early on.  I was late seeing it, and finally started seeing the problems it was creating with the whole Next 1,000 vs. Personal Triggers deal.

Yeah, I've heard you repeat that no less than a half-dozen times. What do you want done? Options, man, options!
Title: Re: Reasons for hope, optimism
Post by: MTPorcupine3 on November 14, 2009, 11:48:15 am
1. While the numbers have not grown nearly as fast as we'd like, they have grown. Case in point:
     A. The counter has gone up to 777 since this thread started.
     B. Our Upper Valley group has grown to the point where we've increased our socials from once to twice a month, with an additional location. The additional location (rural Canaan) had at least              22 participants its second meeting.
     C. Porc Fest, Liberty Forum, and the Live Free or Die Rally have grown bigger and better every year.
2. Most (not all) folks who moved to New Hampshire, then left, were either undesirable as neighbours (criminal, know-it-all), or useless as activists. Think wheat from the chaff.
3. More and more liberty-friendly natives and long time New Hampshirites are coming out of the woodwork and enthusiastically embracing our arrival, even if quietly. Personal examples:
     A. A family that lives 7 minutes walk down our little dirt road moved to New Hampshire for more freedom 8 years ago and are discouraged by the erosion of freedom since then.
     B. They told me about a particular farmer I've known since I moved here, but was unaware of his support for our movement.
     C. The owner of our little country store was thrilled when she found out I was a Free Stater (she asked). "I'm so glad you're here!" she told me.
4. Not measurable or numerable is the ever growing energy toward liberty activism. You can feel it. What some see as lack of leadership and organisation, I see as a movement that is taking on 
    a life of its own.

If you think there should be some sort of leadership and organisation, fine. Move your ass here and then make it happen. Armchair critics are useless—like the folks mentioned in #2 above.      
Title: Re: Why only 776
Post by: swamp_yankee on November 14, 2009, 11:58:28 am
From an outsider's perspective, twenty page threads on circumcision, bird populations and catholic bashing dont help. I'm a burnt out Massachusetts conservative, who will be moving to NH, but I am coming to escape liberals, radicals and hippies. Seems like a lot of disgruntled liberals pervert the freedom movement for one or two peripheral issues, but have no true affection for the Constitution, true ordered liberty, property rights, contract rights and a civil society.
Title: Re: Why only 776
Post by: maxxoccupancy on November 14, 2009, 01:20:29 pm
Why don't you come up to Movie Night Sundays at my place in Seabrook.  I'm right on the border, and we're inviting a lot of Ron Paul folks, taxpayers advocates, libertarians, and other folks from Mass and southern New England.  Eventually, I'd like to reach 9/11 truthers, 420 truthers, and other prospective freestaters, also.  Overall, the seacoast folk, though, tend to be more local type folks who prefer to just be good neighbors.  Of course, part of being a good neighbor is helping to vote down some bad warrant articles like this one Honeywell is pushing for here in Seabrook ($1.9 million for some renovations to one of the public schools).  About half the spending articles last March got voted down, and a few more would have been defeated if we could get some activists here.

This is a weekly event, and folks are encouraged to bring food, beer, and friends. (If you can't get ahold of food/beer, etc, a $5 donation to cover food costs is fine).  This week, we'll be catching the second part of Hot Fuzz and one other DVD.

Just come up Route 1 to Seabrook.  From the Town Hall "roundabout," come straight at the stop sign down Folly Mill Road and turn left onto Charles Henry Way.  This is also listed on facebook as an Event.
Title: Re: Why only 776
Post by: creaganlios on November 14, 2009, 01:30:44 pm
From an outsider's perspective, twenty page threads on circumcision, bird populations and catholic bashing dont help. I'm a burnt out Massachusetts conservative, who will be moving to NH, but I am coming to escape liberals, radicals and hippies. Seems like a lot of disgruntled liberals pervert the freedom movement for one or two peripheral issues, but have no true affection for the Constitution, true ordered liberty, property rights, contract rights and a civil society.

Dear swamp yankee,

I understand your frustration with silly, esoteric threads that go on forever and mean little to anyone except ivory-tower academics and angry young men who sit in a room with a lock on the door with their maps and medals laid out on the floor (..apologies to Billy Joel).  But remember, cyberspace, like a 20 second TV report, is an extreme distortion of reality and over-represents the point of view of the Minority-but-Passionate.

Having said that, i personally find the term 'conservative'just as distatseful as the term 'liberal'.  *BOTH* groups seek to use the power of the state to impose their view of Society.

I have said it many times, and I'll say it again:  I believe in LIBERTY...and that means I want Liberal hands out of my wallet, and Conservative noses out of my bedroom.  If you only want a society where there is 'liberty' in those areas that are a particular concern to *you,* then you will simply import Massachusetts Thinking when/if/should you move here.

I welcome you with open arms, but i hope you understand that 50% of the time, those hippies you want to get away from are your strongest allies.

Thom
Title: Re: Why only 776
Post by: swamp_yankee on November 14, 2009, 02:02:41 pm
If there was no difference between conservatives and liberals. Why not choose Massachusetts, or if you want a small state to wield influence, why not Rhode Island or perhaps Vermont?  If NH was alluring to you, it was not because it was some mecca for new age libertarian thinking. Its precisely because it had traditional conservative roots. Those who spite conservatives and permit the ascendency of liberals over one or two personal or peripheral issues are biting off their noses to spite their face.

You are in NH precisely because people like me have been defecting from liberal northeast states for a decade and have managed to keep NH managable and relatively free. All those years when NH was a solid conservative state, I have few recollections of conservatives dictating what goes on in the bedroom. On the other hand, all I have to do to wake up every day and witness and feel the oppression that liberals have brought to New England. 

Most hippies are libertines, more than they are libertarians.  I'm not interested in the freeedom movement to satisfy my personal indulgences. There are larger and more important issues than my thrills. Too much blood, sweat and tears have been laid for this grand experiment.   My brothers have wonderful children.  I see see the liberty movement through their future.
Title: Re: Why only 776
Post by: rossby on November 14, 2009, 05:16:18 pm
I understand your frustration with silly, esoteric threads that go on forever and mean little to anyone except ivory-tower academics and angry young men who sit in a room with a lock on the door with their maps and medals laid out on the floor (..apologies to Billy Joel).  But remember, cyberspace, like a 20 second TV report, is an extreme distortion of reality and over-represents the point of view of the Minority-but-Passionate.

I'd love to see the scope of the forums confined to FSP-related topics, and the general chatter migrate to the numerous other participant-run boards.
Title: Re: Why only 776
Post by: kyfornow on November 14, 2009, 06:27:19 pm
" There is no place ANYWHERE in the world where there are enough people meaingfully gathered (and planning to gather) to work for smaller, more efficient, peaceful government"


I read through all this, and this said it best- there is NO place anywhere in the world.  You couldn't even go to a massive metro area like NYC or Bangkok China where there are millions of people and find that many people in one relative location doing these things.  I live in a fairly rural area but with approximately 150,000 people within a 35 mile radius of where I'm sitting, but you're lucky if you would see TWO people actually doing something.  Most people here only care about a very limited list of choices- either church,  football, the bars, or having their house, truck and 200 channels of tv.  I live in a F**#ing small town area and the no-smoking bans, govt cameras, all that, it's already here.  I've even seen govt cameras and other major govt intrusions way out in rural areas (1984 style) such as close to my mountain property that has a population of less than 20 within a 3 mile radius, and is 15 miles from the nearest town.

Personally my vested interest in coming to NH is to defend my property rights.  It will just be a matter of time before the local thru federal gov start dictating even more what I can do with my remote land, and nobody will ever stand up here and do the first thing about it.  At least in NH people are doing something about it, (Im one of those introverted types)  but if I have to join up with others in various contexts, to defend my right to live on a mountain in social isolation, in the middle of nowhere and DO whatever I want as long as I'm not hurting someone else, then I guess I'll have to do that. 
Title: Re: Why only 776
Post by: leetpreacher on November 15, 2009, 02:12:38 am
What if you can not come to a peaceful negotiation with the U.S. government on becoming your own country?  Have you considered that issue?  And if so what is your plans then?
Title: Re: Why only 776
Post by: John Edward Mercier on November 15, 2009, 03:27:51 am
Sort of off thread...
But the FSP isn't particularly about secession.

It is quite possible (and some success has already been achieved) to maintain or reinstate personal liberties while maintaining membership within the Union.

Title: Re: Why only 776
Post by: John Edward Mercier on November 15, 2009, 04:13:02 am
From an outsider's perspective, twenty page threads on circumcision, bird populations and catholic bashing dont help. I'm a burnt out Massachusetts conservative, who will be moving to NH, but I am coming to escape liberals, radicals and hippies. Seems like a lot of disgruntled liberals pervert the freedom movement for one or two peripheral issues, but have no true affection for the Constitution, true ordered liberty, property rights, contract rights and a civil society.
Circumcision seems to be a debate about personal liberties/parental rights... though it may be deeper, I can't tell.

Bird Populations is about property rights.

And the Catholic bashing... well, you'll need to learn to deal with it. Its been around for centuries.
Some have suggested that it has gotten better with the Irish and Italian immigrations to NH's south... but historically it was pretty bad between the French and British colonies. Occassionally I meet someone in person that declares that as a Catholic, I'm not a Christian... but 'judge not, lest thee be judged' comes to mind; and I simply forgive the trespass.
Title: Re: Why only 776
Post by: Russell Kanning on November 15, 2009, 08:15:43 am
I'm VERY interested in the FSP, but after browsing the site I'm trying to find out why after 6 years there just don't seem to be the numbers you were hoping for?
because you haven't moved and made it 777
Title: Re: Why only 776
Post by: Russell Kanning on November 15, 2009, 08:22:40 am
Is it that people want to move, but can't or don't have the will?
they are all waiting for you to join
Title: Re: Why only 776
Post by: lloydbob1 on November 15, 2009, 08:31:29 am
I understand your frustration with silly, esoteric threads that go on forever and mean little to anyone except ivory-tower academics and angry young men who sit in a room with a lock on the door with their maps and medals laid out on the floor (..apologies to Billy Joel).  But remember, cyberspace, like a 20 second TV report, is an extreme distortion of reality and over-represents the point of view of the Minority-but-Passionate.

I'd love to see the scope of the forums confined to FSP-related topics, and the general chatter migrate to the numerous other participant-run boards.

It was like this long before you joined.  Others have adjusted.
Title: Re: Why only 776
Post by: maxxoccupancy on November 15, 2009, 10:53:38 am
Okay, here are my answers again, albeit drastically edited:

-wish washy people.  A lot of the more recent prospective movers have been generating excuses faster than we can respond to them.  Some porcs are trying to sell/recruit these folks. Others are just saying who needs them.

-jobs.  Out west, jobs go to the most qualified.  In New England, jobs go to friends of friends, family, etc.  There are still jobs being found in Manch and the seacoast, but most of the state is suffering because of the recession/depression.

-cold.  90+% of the state has terrible weather, and the parts with mild winters usually require you to plop down a LOT of money to live near the water.

-family.  Split custody, sick parents, girlfriends/spouses, etc.  These are all valid reasons, and some people can't leave family behind.

-medical.  Extreme cold, access to specialists, frostbite, severe allergies, and other issues keep people bound to one area.

-age.  For various reasons, we have very few older movers.  By far, most of the new movers have been couples, families, and individuals between 20-45, most at the age where they're looking to settle down somewhere permanently.  AFAIK, we have yet to target our most successful demographics.

-moving back out.  A few porcs have moved here only to leave.  Some leave for just a few months, while others intend to leave for good.  Some have become disgruntled about the movement, while others just lose interest.

-do-nothings.  Or folks who do very little.  Many of the folks who move here never lift a finger to do any recruiting/activism.  It's one of the most unusual things to see, IMO.  Move hundreds--or even thousands of miles--then do nothing.

-introversion.  Most libertarians are intellectual and/or introverted.  They are either not too comfortable talking to strangers or they speak so many levels beyond John Q. Public that they never quite click with people.

-internal fighting, arguing, debatatarism.  This one was predicted from the get go, but not on the scale that we've seen.  Literally every effort I've seen by new folks to identify and solve problems has been met with angry flame wars and personal attacks.  Many problems persist within the effort that cannot be solved because they are never even accepted by members.  Big concerns are met with petty arguments over small details.  Trolls and debatatarians are almost never kicked off the fora--some of them are moderators themselves.

-members are not members.  Only the FSP Board has any say in the organization.  Movers are not considered "members," and have no vote or say in anything that FSP Corp. does.  This is not a member owned organization, so mover activists have very little interest in FSP Corp.

-substance abuse.  Drinking (and other drugs) have been a major issue, IMO.  I drink in moderation, but some folks have just come here and get wasted every night, or pop pills.

Basically, we don't have a winning, cohesive, united organization.  Numerous attempts have been made to get lots of people behind a strategy, but you usually here something like, "You don't have a right to be dictator!" or "Everyone can just do what they want to." In other words, there's no pledge on pledgebank saying, "I'll agree to commit X hours a week to winning strategy Y, but only if 99 other people agree to do the same." If you suggest something like that, instead of getting input or discussion, you get something like, "Okay, FSP Mover XXX, why don't YOU do it!"

Okay, I'll go do it on my own and try to make Next 1,000 a huge recruiting success.

There were like five people talking about Next 1,000 (in 2007) for every one person who has actually done something about it.
Title: Re: Why only 776
Post by: rossby on November 15, 2009, 11:33:57 am
Okay, here are my answers again, albeit drastically edited:

...

Not your "answers". What solutions to those obstacles do you offer?
Title: Re: Why only 776
Post by: creaganlios on November 15, 2009, 11:52:36 am
Okay, here are my answers again, albeit drastically edited:  blah, blah, blah....

I'm not sure that these are really valid (90% of the state does NOT have bad weather...thats a ridiculous sterotype....and medical care is a reason *TO* move here).

But it does bring to mind a quote I heard some time ago that brings a smile to my face:

"Inside every libertarian is a Central Planner screaming to get out"  LOL!
Title: Re: Why only 776
Post by: maxxoccupancy on November 15, 2009, 12:42:18 pm
Dude, this is what's out there for liberty types.  This is what we have for an FSP Board--not exactly the Braveheart/Leonidas from 300 Spartans type of personality, bud.

When actually interacting with folks, I've heard numerous "excuses." In sales, we're taught to verbally maneuver our way around these, exposing the few people who really CANNOT move.  You then just move on.

We have folks on this very forum considering the move.  If we could get just half of those folks to come in, we'd have the counter up past 1,000.  If we could get those folks likely to move to sign up on the Next 1,000, that would be past 500 signers, right there.
Title: Re: Why only 776
Post by: rossby on November 15, 2009, 01:19:09 pm
I'm not trying to twist your arm. Tell me what can be done. You have obviously taken care to compile a thorough list of problems. I have faith your powers of observation extend beyond that. How can each one be fixed or ameliorated? Not "what", but "how".

This is brainstorming. No more complaining. Solutions. Offer. Go.
Title: Re: Why only 776
Post by: maxxoccupancy on November 15, 2009, 01:42:10 pm
I think it's cool that we have 777 movers, and 9777 participants.

That means that we have rolled all sevens--except for the nine THOUSAND people who signed up to move and are still sitting on their butts at home playing MMORPG's.

How to fix?

1. Turn the FSP into a grass roots effort controlled and run by the members, mover-activists who actually do stuff.

2. Get more media attention, POSITIVE media attention

3. Advertise and do outreach within New Hampshire

4. Help folks in other states organize their own free state, county, and town efforts

5. Let people know that we are looking for political activists and doers

6. Bring in more entrepreneurs and business people to help create jobs in New Hampshire

7. Throw trolls and arguers off the fora--no work, no post

8. Set up some kind of alternative to google ads: All of the money raised would go back into liberty activism.  Those of us spending hundreds of bucks every year on ads don't really have anything like that, and it's something that's been needed for a long time.

9. Stop telling people, "Oh, a good idea?  Okay, why don't you go do that..." That pisses people off and shows no real interest in some new type of activism that could potentially lead to a lot of positive results down the road. "Why don't you go do that?" tells other people that you're not interested in helping out, nor are you willing to provide info, ideas, or positive feedback.
Title: Re: Why only 776
Post by: Dreepa on November 15, 2009, 01:53:52 pm
I think it's cool that we have 777 movers, and 9777 participants.
 

I do too!


That means that we have rolled all sevens--except for the nine THOUSAND people who signed up to move and are still sitting on their butts at home playing MMORPG's.

How to fix?

1. Turn the FSP into a grass roots effort controlled and run by the members, mover-activists who actually do stuff.

It is a grass roots effort.  As you yourself have said.. the board does nothing.. so who is doing something?  Grassroots.

2. Get more media attention, POSITIVE media attention
Agreed
I was on the radio the other night for an hour talking about the FSP and Varrin is going to be on next week.
We just need to get the media to pay attention.

3. Advertise and do outreach within New Hampshire
We are.
We advertise in several magazine, websites, podcasts and Facebook

4. Help folks in other states organize their own free state, county, and town efforts
We dont have enough volunteers for the FSP when we do maybe we should.

5. Let people know that we are looking for political activists and doers
agreed we could do a better job  of trying to get people to Nh.
6. Bring in more entrepreneurs and business people to help create jobs in New Hampshire
Agreed.
We need someone to spearhead getting them to NH.
7. Throw trolls and arguers off the fora--no work, no post

It is a forum.  Debate rules here.

8. Set up some kind of alternative to google ads: All of the money raised would go back into liberty activism.  Those of us spending hundreds of bucks every year on ads don't really have anything like that, and it's something that's been needed for a long time.


That is a good idea.
9. Stop telling people, "Oh, a good idea?  Okay, why don't you go do that..." That pisses people off and shows no real interest in some new type of activism that could potentially lead to a lot of positive results down the road. "Why don't you go do that?" tells other people that you're not interested in helping out, nor are you willing to provide info, ideas, or positive feedback.


Maybe there should be a page on the FSP site that has all of these great ideas.
Then someone can look at them and then 'own' them and work them.
With Volunteer org it is hard to make people do certain things.
I can see lots of good idea but that I can't personally do.  Should I be made to do them?  People ask me all the time to write some stuff up.  My writing skills are not great.  Every 'job' should go to someone with that skill and desire.
Title: Re: Why only 776
Post by: Dreepa on November 15, 2009, 01:55:01 pm
Back on subject.

1. Is the counter accurate? Has everyone that moved been counted (most likely some did not update).
2. The SOI number should be the one most considered, while the accomplishments of the early movers might be given more PR.


Counter is somewhat accurate.
Last year and this year some people made a huge push to get movers to update their status.  There are still people who move and don't update.. .but it is 'close'
Title: Re: Why only 776
Post by: rossby on November 15, 2009, 01:58:30 pm
I think it's cool that we have 777 movers, and 9777 participants.

That means that we have rolled all sevens--except for the nine THOUSAND people who signed up to move and are still sitting on their butts at home playing MMORPG's.

Roll 7's? I want 20's dammit--thousand that is. Nerd high-five (http://www.pennyarcademerch.com/pat070131.html)!

Let me digest some of that...
Title: Re: Why only 776
Post by: sj on November 15, 2009, 02:43:11 pm
If there was no difference between conservatives and liberals. Why not choose Massachusetts, or if you want a small state to wield influence, why not Rhode Island or perhaps Vermont?  If NH was alluring to you, it was not because it was some mecca for new age libertarian thinking. Its precisely because it had traditional conservative roots. Those who spite conservatives and permit the ascendency of liberals over one or two personal or peripheral issues are biting off their noses to spite their face.

You are in NH precisely because people like me have been defecting from liberal northeast states for a decade and have managed to keep NH managable and relatively free. All those years when NH was a solid conservative state, I have few recollections of conservatives dictating what goes on in the bedroom. On the other hand, all I have to do to wake up every day and witness and feel the oppression that liberals have brought to New England. 

Most hippies are libertines, more than they are libertarians.  I'm not interested in the freeedom movement to satisfy my personal indulgences. There are larger and more important issues than my thrills. Too much blood, sweat and tears have been laid for this grand experiment.   My brothers have wonderful children.  I see see the liberty movement through their future.

+1

Regarding the original question of this thread, I think the number of movers we have is astounding considering (a) the amount of effort involved in making the move, (b) the fact that there is no obligation to move since we have not yet reached 20,000 signers, and (c) the fact that many movers aren't counted because they don't sign up for various reasons.

This project is going to take time, but it's the best hope I see for liberty in our lifetime.
Title: Re: Why only 776
Post by: maxxoccupancy on November 15, 2009, 03:10:01 pm
Dreepa

1. FSP Board endorsed First 1,000, but not other grass roots projects that members got together and came up with
3. I've seen almost no advertising myself within New Hampshire--unless you're already in attendance at some FSP event, in which case, you already know about the FSP... I've been told numerous times that the FSP does not advertise within New Hampshire, and was even told NOT to put the FSP name an a Sponsor a Highway sign because part of that road runs into New Hampshire (the other 90% is in Mass).
4. Discussion of other free state, county, and town projects around the country has been met with open hostility here, or repeated posts have been made (including by moderators and FSP Board members) that "we don't discuss that here," or "you can take that discussion elsewhere." Not very helpful.
5. I think that you missed the key point, here.  When I recruit, I don't bother helping people who sound like they want to just move and then do nothing. I don't see that as a good use of my time.  Political activists do stuff.  Noise makers and MMORPG players don't vote out bad politicians.  So why waste my time?
6. We need many people to figure out how to do this.  This requires discussion and action.  I am willing to help out in this regard, but anyone will feel demotivated if they keep being told, "Why don't you go do that..."
7. Again, people who do nothing but troll and argue are not doers.  They are hurting and not helping.  They would get tossed off of jeffersonforum.net and more civilized fora.
9. Offering discussion and good ideas is not the same as making someone do something.  One is a proposal, the other is a command.
Title: Re: Why only 776
Post by: Dreepa on November 15, 2009, 03:57:55 pm
Dreepa


1. FSP Board endorsed First 1,000, but not other grass roots projects that members got together and came up with


Right can you think of another one?
Also post on Doers of other grass roots projects and maybe the FSP board will endorse them

3. I've seen almost no advertising myself within New Hampshire--unless you're already in attendance at some FSP event, in which case, you already know about the FSP... I've been told numerous times that the FSP does not advertise within New Hampshire, and was even told NOT to put the FSP name an a Sponsor a Highway sign because part of that road runs into New Hampshire (the other 90% is in Mass).


It doesn't make sense to advertise IN NH.. we want people to MOVE to NH.

4. Discussion of other free state, county, and town projects around the country has been met with open hostility here, or repeated posts have been made (including by moderators and FSP Board members) that "we don't discuss that here," or "you can take that discussion elsewhere." Not very helpful.


Discuss all you want.. but until we get enough volunteers to help with THIS project I doubt that the board will endorse volunteers to help with other projects.

5. I think that you missed the key point, here.  When I recruit, I don't bother helping people who sound like they want to just move and then do nothing. I don't see that as a good use of my time.  Political activists do stuff.  Noise makers and MMORPG players don't vote out bad politicians.  So why waste my time?


Not missing your point at all.

6. We need many people to figure out how to do this.  This requires discussion and action.  I am willing to help out in this regard, but anyone will feel demotivated if they keep being told, "Why don't you go do that..."


I don't know what to say here.

7. Again, people who do nothing but troll and argue are not doers.  They are hurting and not helping.  They would get tossed off of jeffersonforum.net and more civilized fora.


Most of the FSPers aren't doers.
Many of the movers aren't doers.....
but this is not my call regarding the forum.
Many libertarians like to debate it seems.

9. Offering discussion and good ideas is not the same as making someone do something.  One is a proposal, the other is a command.

Don't really know what you are saying here.
Title: Re: Why only 776
Post by: maxxoccupancy on November 15, 2009, 04:05:07 pm
9. I get a lot of folks saying "You can't be a dictator" or "make people do stuff" when I propose things.  It's irritating to me.

I've been saying that we should advertise and recruit within New Hampshire.  Not everyone driving through is a resident, and most of the doers I know (at least out on the coast and in Manch) were folks living here before the vote.  There are over 1500 Friends of FSP, and only about 550 who've actually made the move and registered.  It makes sense to me to advertise and recruit here, and it doesn't make sense that the FSP Board is telling us not to use "their" name here.
Title: Re: Why only 776
Post by: Dreepa on November 15, 2009, 04:07:34 pm
9. I get a lot of folks saying "You can't be a dictator" or "make people do stuff" when I propose things.  It's irritating to me.

I've been saying that we should advertise and recruit within New Hampshire.  Not everyone driving through is a resident, and most of the doers I know (at least out on the coast and in Manch) were folks living here before the vote.  There are over 1500 Friends of FSP, and only about 550 who've actually made the move and registered.  It makes sense to me to advertise and recruit here, and it doesn't make sense that the FSP Board is telling us not to use "their" name here.

By the very definition of the FSP is to get people to MOVE here.

I agree 100% that we people in NH who are liberty lovers should recruit for :CNHT, LPNH, NHLA, GONH, etc, etc etc... but if those people did sign up for the FSP then they would sign up as pioneers and they wouldn't count to the total.  So if I talk to people in state I talk about all the stuff going on... no need to even bring up the FSP.

FSP is the bus to GET people TO NH.
Title: Re: Why only 776
Post by: rossby on November 15, 2009, 05:19:12 pm
1. FSP Board endorsed First 1,000, but not other grass roots projects that members got together and came up with

This is a complaint. What are our options?

What were some of the other grass roots projects that directly encouraged signers and movers?
What sort of things can the board support?

3. I've seen almost no advertising myself within New Hampshire--unless you're already in attendance at some FSP event, in which case, you already know about the FSP... I've been told numerous times that the FSP does not advertise within New Hampshire, and was even told NOT to put the FSP name an a Sponsor a Highway sign because part of that road runs into New Hampshire (the other 90% is in Mass).

This is a complaint. What are our options?

Do you want to see more advertising *in* NH?
How does spending money on advertising help gather participants and movers?
How many non-NHers will see that? How many will sign-up?
Estimates?

4. Discussion of other free state, county, and town projects around the country has been met with open hostility here, or repeated posts have been made (including by moderators and FSP Board members) that "we don't discuss that here," or "you can take that discussion elsewhere." Not very helpful.

This is a complaint. What are our options?

I have not seen the "hostility" you speak of (don't bother fishing for quotes; I'd rather not debate that point here). I have seen plenty of support for other ideas, but a lot of people noting that the purpose of the FSP is focused on New Hampshire specifically.

What do you propose the FSP could do with other organizations?

6. We need many people to figure out how to do this.  This requires discussion and action.  I am willing to help out in this regard, but anyone will feel
demotivated if they keep being told, "Why don't you go do that..."

This is a complaint. What are our options?

We have a lot of people. Some more connected than others.
Do we need better information sharing and coordination?
How do you propose we facilitate this communiction?

It's very easy to generate options when you don't have to carry the load. That is what people are saying. Good options are ultimately those that people will actually do because they really want to. A million goods ideas are worthless if they can't be put into practice effectively.

Money is a good substitute for motivation. If the FSP had a small staff for "getting stuff done", would you be willing to give your money to support it?

9. Offering discussion and good ideas is not the same as making someone do something.  One is a proposal, the other is a command.

This is a complaint. What are our options?

We have no power to make anyone do anything here. People have no obligations to do anything--they do it because they want to or can be persuaded to. There's a difference between "making someone do something" and giving them the tools, information, and a kick-in-the-ass to get it done. We have little money to substitute for earnest motivation. How do you propose to "make" people do things?
Title: Re: Why only 776
Post by: Russell Kanning on November 15, 2009, 05:44:36 pm
i thought the problem was fixed ... didn't we reach 777 already?
Title: Re: Why only 776
Post by: maxxoccupancy on November 15, 2009, 06:46:51 pm
The Next 1,000 was a grass roots, member organized effort that the FSP Board refused to either endorse or even take ad revenue for.  The Board should at least accept ads from members who are doing stuff.  Moderators and Board members should not tell newbs who have ideas contrary to the SOI to take their discussion elsewhere.  That's what Off Topic boards are for on fora.

Option?  Just don't tell people to take their idea and get lost.  Option?  Offer help, info, ideas, contacts, etc.  Option?  Read what I've actually advised in my posts.
Title: Re: Why only 776
Post by: Fishercat on November 15, 2009, 06:58:10 pm
i thought the problem was fixed ... didn't we reach 777 already?

+1
Title: Re: Why only 776
Post by: rossby on November 15, 2009, 07:35:36 pm
The Next 1,000 was a grass roots, member organized effort that the FSP Board refused to either endorse or even take ad revenue for.

I don't understand... I thought you said they did endorse it, but wouldn't endorse any others?

The Board should at least accept ads from members who are doing stuff.

What do you mean "accept ads"?

Option?  Read what I've actually advised in my posts.

I've read everything you've written, and I'm actively waiting for something substantial. C'mon, you had quite a list. You want to change the way things are done? Put up.
Title: Re: Why only 776
Post by: anon37268573 on November 15, 2009, 08:14:08 pm
What would you like changed in the RSAs for incorporation?
I think the LSRs have already been entered for this session, but if you could narrow it down and define it... the next cycle comes around rather quickly.

There's some really silly, painful, stuff that is just the result of the age of the RSA's rather than logical good governance.  I'd basically just like the see the laws modernized.

Some specific examples:

1. NH will not take fax signatures on incorporation filings.  I have an Irish citizen on a board of directors for a company I've been trying to get started.  In order for NH to let me actually get the company started, I have to fly part of a dead tree across the Atlantic so that he can smear some dark colored chemicals on it and then he has to fly that piece of dead tree back to me so that I can pay the post office to drive the dead tree parts to the government offices of the state of NH.  That is just absurd!  I've done government contracting for the defense department, and they will take fax signatures on all their contracts; electronic signatures on many.  Corporate America has been universally recognizing the validity of fax transmitted signatures for close to at least 30 years now (almost as long as I've been alive).

2. Excessive requirements for quantities of board members - NH requires five board members for non-profits.  I don't even have five friends.  Not many people do these days.  I'm a computer geek.  I get out from in front of the computer to actually meet five other human beings on a good year, maybe.  Admittedly, they have a self justification for this.  It's to have a diversity of opinion on the board.  But, like I said this isn't the 1800's.  People don't form close relationships, anymore.  Especially, people who achieve significant success in business.  Many people who focus on their careers and trades don't even get married any more, let alone have the opportunity to live in any place long enough to get to know the community and form such a large numbers of friendships.  Even though NH forces five board members, they allow one individual to own 100% of the stock.  So, the other board members, even collectively, have no power.  It's just silly - "We want you to have a diversity of opinion.  But, you don't have to listen to any of it.  You can just ignore it."

There's many other smaller similar points.  I've found them common in NE states due to the age of the laws.  For example, I tried to created a company in MA before I joined the FSP.  But, MA required two people to form an LLC.  So, I couldn't get it done.  I didn't know another person that I trusted enough to form a company with at the time.

I think we could use Vermont's virtual corporation legislation as a template:

   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_business#Virtual_corporations

That is exactly the kind of modernization that is needed in NH in order to attract internet and high technology entrepreneurs.

I'll look into NHLA.  But, their web site seems to want people to become members before participating or even donating.  I don't want to join any organizations that I don't have to because I occasionally travel to countries, like Russia, that require that I list every organization that I've ever belonged to on Visa applications.

   - anon
Title: Re: Why only 776
Post by: maxxoccupancy on November 15, 2009, 09:10:20 pm
BDR, I specifically state that the Board would neither endorse nor accept ads for the Next 1,000.  Their argument was that it might confuse people and take attention away from the Board's idea of Personal Triggers.

RRP
Title: Re: Why only 776
Post by: rossby on November 15, 2009, 09:16:21 pm
BDR, I specifically state that the Board would neither endorse nor accept ads for the Next 1,000.

Ah. Next 1,000. I thought you were talking about First 1,000.


Did you have any other suggestions to offer?
Title: Re: Why only 776
Post by: maxxoccupancy on November 15, 2009, 09:21:28 pm
Just read the posts.

The answers are in there.
Title: Re: Why only 776
Post by: FreeStyle on November 16, 2009, 04:19:59 am
just announced:  the 3rd 1000!

(tired act)
Title: Re: Why only 776
Post by: Dreepa on November 16, 2009, 10:25:46 pm
BDR, I specifically state that the Board would neither endorse nor accept ads for the Next 1,000.

Ah. Next 1,000. I thought you were talking about First 1,000.


Did you have any other suggestions to offer?

I was personally against starting the Next 1000 until after the First 1000 got here.
See we got the 1000 to sign up but 11 months later we are only 75% of the way to 1000.

I suggested Like 5000 to START the pledge Jan 1 2009 and finish 'later'.

Title: Re: Why only 776
Post by: Dreepa on November 16, 2009, 10:26:02 pm
778
Title: Re: Why only 776
Post by: rossby on November 17, 2009, 02:25:08 am
I was personally against starting the Next 1000 until after the First 1000 got here.

Doesn't sound quite right to me either :-\


Title: Re: Why only 776
Post by: FreeStyle on November 17, 2009, 05:59:27 am
so that website I made for the 5th 1000 isn't going to work?   ;D

I guess I never signed the statement of intent.  I did so last night.  Just in time I'm moving Friday if everything goes well.  Chalk up two more freestaters come home.
Title: Re: Why only 776
Post by: Dreepa on November 17, 2009, 07:36:58 am
so that website I made for the 5th 1000 isn't going to work?   ;D

I guess I never signed the statement of intent.  I did so last night.  Just in time I'm moving Friday if everything goes well.  Chalk up two more freestaters come home.
ye haw!!!

Do you need help moving?
If yes you might want to call porc 411 now to line some people up.

welcome home!
Title: Re: Why only 776
Post by: creaganlios on November 17, 2009, 09:06:27 am
While I am signed up in the forums, I can't seem to login on the FSP home page!  I know I voted WAY back when we were still choosing a state, but now I'm wondering if I was ever counted oin the stats ? ? ?   And I know my partner (who joined me here in 2007) has never been added...So....where do I go to insure that I/we are actualy counted?!

Thom
Title: Re: Why only 776
Post by: maxxoccupancy on November 17, 2009, 10:04:16 am
BDR, I specifically state that the Board would neither endorse nor accept ads for the Next 1,000.

Ah. Next 1,000. I thought you were talking about First 1,000.


Did you have any other suggestions to offer?

I was personally against starting the Next 1000 until after the First 1000 got here.
See we got the 1000 to sign up but 11 months later we are only 75% of the way to 1000.

I suggested Like 5000 to START the pledge Jan 1 2009 and finish 'later'.

Most of the folks online at that time (on the "second wave" thread, or whatever it was called) wanted another 1,000 to tap into the large numbers of Operation Live Free or Die crowd.  It was thought that, even in Ron Paul didn't win the primary, we could recruit them AND get another 1,000 going for them.  Polls were put up asking folks how they wanted to do this.

Of course, several folks had said that they didn't want another First 1,000 project until we'd gotten ALL of the First 1,000 (1031, IIRC) into New Hampshire.  Since many have backed out of that, I consider it EXTREMELY unlikely that we'll ever get ALL 1031 of those folks into the state.

Some of the new mover-activists wanted to be part of their own First 1,000 project, so a number of us got together and set up a Next 1,000 pledge... up to 156 signers with absolutely no support from the FSP Board.  100% grass roots, baby!
Title: Re: Why only 776
Post by: Dreepa on November 17, 2009, 12:13:30 pm
While I am signed up in the forums, I can't seem to login on the FSP home page!  I know I voted WAY back when we were still choosing a state, but now I'm wondering if I was ever counted oin the stats ? ? ?   And I know my partner (who joined me here in 2007) has never been added...So....where do I go to insure that I/we are actualy counted?!

Thom
email moved@free...state....project....org to check on both.
Title: Re: Why only 776
Post by: anon37268573 on November 17, 2009, 05:33:44 pm
Check out the "Which State" debate and how many people argued that an Eastern state (especially a New England state) would never pull 20,000 movers.  All of those things have come to pass.  Here are more that weren't anticipated (or were mentioned by just a few):

-wish washy people.  A lot of the more recent prospective movers have been generating excuses faster than we can respond to them. 

1. Romantically partner them up with people who aren't wishy washy.  Possibly, through social activities like speed dating at liberty forum or something.
2. Build a buddy system.  Let every new mover link with an already moved volunteer who will provide encouragement and support from NH.


-Some of us are trying to sell/recruit, while others are saying who needs them.

1. Lean on people who are dropping out.  They made a contract to work for Liberty in NH.  Some of them won't even vote.  Remind them that they made an oath.
2. Make it easer for people who aren't social enough to sell/recruit to donate money in support of those who are - tables at liberty conferences, travel funds, etc.


-jobs.  Out west, jobs go to the most qualified.  In New England, jobs go to friends of friends, family, etc.

1. Start a project to write letters to persecuted businesses that are highly taxed or legislatively oppressed asking them to relocate their businesses to NH
2. Put together a group of freestaters to attend entrepreneurship conferences and activities like BarCamp.
3. For a liaison relationship between the FSP and NH gov't offices trying to get business to move to NH.  Like, state office of economic development.  They're already talking with companies and trying to get them to move to NH from other states.


-cold.  Most prospective movers don't know about (or don't believe) the weather here on the seacoast.  It's really not bad.  We only have about 2-3 months on the coast that are worse than jacket weather.

1. Raffle off a free ski trip to a FSP member who hasn't moved yet every winter so that they can see it's not that bad.
2. Put climate data on the FSP website showing that NH doesn't really get much colder than the midatlantic states in the winter.
3. Talk to people citing "cold" as the reason that they can't move to see if that's really the reason they don't want to or because it's a convenient excuse to hide a more sinister reason like they're currently on welfare in a state with more generous benefits than NH.
4. If people say it's too cold in a non-fsp forum, just expect they're hiding something and completely ignore them and not waste time on them other than posting a link to climate data.  Humans evolved to live in temperatures like those in New Hampshire.  If someone says their body can't handle it, there's probably something else going on that's not worth anyone's time to dig into.


-family.  Split custody, sick parents, girlfriends/spouses, etc.  These are all valid reasons, and some people can't leave family behind.

1. Try and form close friendships with these people and encourage them to do the same with other freestaters already in NH.
2. Try and talk to their loved ones who are the problem.
3. Get them to commit to move when things clear up - kids hit 18, parents finally die, girlfriends/spouses are supplanted by next year's younger skinnier models.


-medical.  Extreme cold, access to specialists, and other issues keep people bound to one area.

1.  Try providing them with some information about the best in the nation medical care available in Boston and the 35 minute drive time from Salem, NH.
2.  Talk with them to see if this is the real issue or if they're just the type of people who have a more nanny like the state to take care of them (welfare, disability, other benefits) and don't want to leave it.


-age.  For various reasons, we have very few older movers.  By far, most of the new movers have been couples, families, and individuals between 20-45, most at the age where they're looking to settle down somewhere permanently.

1. When I was in Alaska, Alaska had a problem with limited population growth keeping the local economies in a state of either stagnation or slow growth.  Most people who moved to Alaska were young poor white men.  Alaska knew they needed rich old women to drive local consumer spending driven revenues.  They passed local laws creating cities and town that had no property taxes.  Retirees, mostly from Washington State/NorCal/Or, started moving up by the thousands buying condos and spending their retirement savings locally.  We could try and get something similar passed to attract rich liberty minded grey hairs from NY/MA/ME/VT/CT.
2. Talk to seniors who have/have not moved, and ask poll them for "customer insight".  Why did they move?  Why did they not move?  What were their concerns that kept them from moving?  What got them to do it?   Once you understand that particular groups' issues you can make plans to address them.
3. Create a volunteer task force of over 65's to work with other other 65's who might want to move.  Peer to peer recruiting would work better.  Probably, especially so with that age group.  It's hard for an over 65 to listen to advice a guy in his 20's - 30's.


-moving back out.  Many porcs have moved here only to leave.  Some leave for just a few months, while others intend to leave for good.  Some have become disgruntled about the movement, while others just lose interest.

1. Again, poll.  Why did they leave?  Was it because they couldn't find a job?  Couldn't find a girlfriend?  Did they get discouraged by slow legislative progress? Make an action plan to deal with what's driving them away.
2. Set up some kind of move back to NH pledge.  "I will move back to NH in 5 years."  just like the "I will move to NH ..." pledge that got them to move in the first place.


-do-nothings.  Or folks who do very little.  Many of the folks who move here never lift a finger to do any recruiting.  It's one of the most unusual things to see, in my opinion.

1.  Decide if this is even worth spending time an energy on.  If 3% of movers are do-nothings - that's ~30 people.  ~30 people isn't going to make or break the project if we're going for 20,000.  If we hit 20,000, 3% is only ~600.  Not a big deal if they're such a small minority.  Some people are just going to be like this.   Why kick a dead horse?
2.  Poll, again.  Do you at least vote?  If not, why?  Do you recruit?  If not, why?
3.  Buddy system, again.  Try and hook them up with a friend.  It's easy to lose motivation and focus when you're working alone.  But, when you're working with at least one other person, one of you is usually on task at any given time.


-introversion.  Most libertarians are intellectual and/or introverted.  They are either not too comfortable talking to strangers or they speak so many levels beyond John Q. Public that they never quite click with people.

1.  Post some information on a Porc psych. or Porc friendly psych.  These people might benefit from mental health help.  Some of the most frustrating people to me are ones who move to a small town but won't tell any one where, won't sign up and move the counter, and won't vote - mostly out of a near psychotic level of paranoia.  Most of these people move to a rural enough area that if they were active or at least voted, they could make a big difference.  Some help from a professional might not help them make a huge impact in the FSP.  But, it would probably at least improve their quality of life and personal level of happiness.  So what would there be to lose by trying?
2.  Find specific tasks for introverts to do.  Maybe they don't like to be social.  But, they don't mind researching laws, writing computer programs,  and helping send out mailings.  Or, maybe they're less introverted on the internet and would be willing to do recruiting on IRC or on Ron Paul websites or something.
Title: Re: Why only 776
Post by: anon37268573 on November 17, 2009, 05:34:20 pm
(Part 2:  Post was over 1,000 char limit)

-internal fighting and arguing.  This one was predicted from the get go, but not on the scale that we've seen.  Literally every effort I've seen by new folks to identify and solve problems has been met with angry flame wars and personal attacks.  Many problems persist within the effort that cannot be solved because they are never even accepted by members.

1. Let people know it's not acceptable here.  Start a karma system for the website and let people downvote each other.  Avoid bringing controversial topics (like support for authoritarian DA's) to the forums.
2.  Try and remove/kick/ban the worst offenders.  A few people can set the tone for a community if you let them.


-members are not members.  Only the FSP Board has any say in the organization.  Movers are not considered "members," and have no vote or say in anything that FSP Corp. does.  This is not a member owned organization.

1. Form a new corp.  Money will follow success.  If you get a new corp going where members have a say in the finances, and activities, and the board has limited power, and it gets lots of new porcs to move to NH I'd donate money to it instead of the current FSP.  I don't think you have to worry about anyone at the FSP suing you for stealing their idea.  We all want the same thing, a New Hampshire Free State.  Let's do what ever the hell we have to to make that happen.
2. Run/Volunteer for the board of the FSP.  Get support from key members and have them put pressure on the current board to appoint you.  Change things from the inside.


-substance abuse.  Drinking (and other drugs) have been a major issue, in my opinion.  Some folks have taken this to excess, and it inhibits their drive to do anything but hold the occasional sign or attend the occasional event.  I am drinking a Blue Moon while writing this, so whatever, eh.

1.  If someone really has a bad problem, offer to take them to an AA meeting.  Would you like to put that Blue Moon down and go to an AA meeting with me?
2.  Set up projects that are smaller and more achievable.  How many years has it taken to get nearly 1000 people to move?  Getting a next 1000 to move is a big goal.  But, getting one company to move across the border from MA and bring 3 jobs with it might be a right sized chunk that could keep people motivated and give them the positive feed back of some immediate success.  Or, get 3 people to move.  Or, whatever....  But, small achievable success so that most people will take the position of "hey I could do something important or I could get drunk tonight" instead of "it's going to take 10 years to accomplish what I'm working on, so one night of drinking is no big deal".


Basically, we don't have a winning, cohesive, united organization.  Numerous attempts have been made to get lots of people behind a strategy, but you usually here something like, "You don't have a right to be dictator!" or "Everyone can just do what they want to." There are lots of strategies that would be successful (recruiting, free town projects, State House stuff) that have failed because the fsp is like ten year olds playing soccer.  Lots of kids are running after the ball, but there's no cohesive strategy.  The Board doesn't really consult the membership like winning teams do, and most folks in the movement don't believe in majority rule, anyway.

In other words, there's no pledge on pledgebank saying, "I'll agree to commit X hours a week to winning strategy Y, but only if 99 other people agree to do the same." If you suggest something like that, instead of getting input or discussion, you get something like, "Okay, FSP Mover XXX, why don't YOU do it."

That's why the counter is still in three digits.

Well, I think the "big long term goals" vrs "bite size chunks" that I was talking about is a big part of these issues.
Title: Re: Why only 776
Post by: maxxoccupancy on November 17, 2009, 05:38:03 pm
Setting up a poll, right now.

Good to get a discussion going...
Title: Re: Why only 776
Post by: RichW on November 17, 2009, 06:07:33 pm
Check out the "Which State" debate and how many people argued that an Eastern state (especially a New England state) would never pull 20,000 movers.  All of those things have come to pass.  Here are more that weren't anticipated (or were mentioned by just a few):

......

Lots of good ideas here anon.  We need more volunteers.
Title: Re: Why only 776
Post by: rossby on November 17, 2009, 06:50:02 pm
Setting up a poll, right now.

Good to get a discussion going...

Max, can you hold off on that poll for the moment if I say pretty please? ;D
Title: Re: Why only 776
Post by: sj on November 17, 2009, 06:51:15 pm
Max, if I wasn't a mod, I would put you on ignore.  When I was on the forum more frequently, I would split off your off-topic posts (usually about (a) Seabrook, (b) the Next 1,000, or (c) how someone or everyone is being mean to you).  Now, I'm not online enough so it seems this thread is hopelessly lost.

I feel sorry for the OP.  If you post your original question in another thread, I'll try to let the discussion stick to your question so you can get helpful answers.
Title: Re: Why only 776
Post by: anon37268573 on November 17, 2009, 09:46:11 pm
Check out the "Which State" debate and how many people argued that an Eastern state (especially a New England state) would never pull 20,000 movers.  All of those things have come to pass.  Here are more that weren't anticipated (or were mentioned by just a few):

......

Lots of good ideas here anon.  We need more volunteers.

The credit belongs to B.D. Ross.  I saw his response/call to action in the split half of the thread suggesting that everyone generate two ideas for each of the issues that Max pointed out, and just typed the first things that came to mind fast.  I'm sure we can come up with a lot better stuff if everyone takes the 20-30 mins to do it.

One correction to what I said, regarding the no property tax in some Alaska towns and counties.  They didn't get rid of the property tax for everyone just people over 65.  Sorry, didn't realize I left that out.  One really good example, a small tourist/artist/finishing town called Homer.  IIRC, the county that Homer was in did it (no property tax over 65) and they got huge economic benefits from a large influx of people living on pensions/retirement savings all spending money in the town's businesses (especially restaurants) and a huge construction boom building condos along the water front of the bay.  They were super short of jobs - like all towns in that part of AK.  But, people over 65 who are retired don't need/take jobs - they just create them.   I think that the "no local property tax for anyone over 65" would work really well in some place like Berlin, NH where there aren't any jobs so no one can move up there and get any economic velocity going to create jobs - a catch 22.  But, if you had a bunch of wealthy retired people from surrounding states (people on Mass state pensions maybe) that could really kick start the local economy even if those people only stayed in Berlin for 6-9 months out of the year when it wasn't very cold.

Another idea I thought of after I posted was doing A/B Testing and conversion stats on the website.  How many people visit the FSP website and then don't sign up?  What do they seem to look at that turns they away.  What (A/B tested) changes would we make that would get more first time visitors to sign up as members or friends?  What about ads sending people to landing pages based on demographics targeted by the ad they clicked on rather than just the home page?

There are some really nice A/B-T & Conversion monitoring sites out there (including I think some free ones now).  I will poke around and find a few links and post them here.

Most of my suggestions came from books and blogs I've reading about starting companies and why start-up companies lose momentum and fail.  The "buddy" ideas are really a key idea from that area.  I know some investors who won't fund companies that don't have at least two founders because it's too easy for the new companies to lose momentum with out that positive feed back loop going.  Most people tend to get discouraged and distracted when they try and work alone.

   - anon
Title: Re: Why only 776
Post by: creaganlios on November 17, 2009, 09:55:24 pm
I think many of you (and many people who honestly believe that they love liberty) underestimate the value they place on thei comfort, even in more statist areas.  The idea of *moving* - ANYWHERE - when you're set in your home and neighborhood and job - is *daunting,* once you realize that you can "live with" your government as long as you can still grumble about it.

"...For what more oft, in nations grown corrupt
And by their vices brought to servitude
Than to love bondage more than liberty;
bondage with ease, than strenuous liberty
And to despise, suspect, and oppose
He whom God hath of His favor
Raised as their Deliverer?"

-John Milton, Samson Agonistes, by memory (so there may be some small errors)
Title: Re: Why only 776
Post by: Dreepa on November 17, 2009, 09:59:00 pm
Anon!!!

GREAT IDEAS!!!!

(when I get some more time I am going to take some of them and run with them)
Title: Re: Why only 776
Post by: rossby on November 17, 2009, 10:07:33 pm
and just typed the first things that came to mind fast.  I'm sure we can come up with a lot better stuff if everyone takes the 20-30 mins to do it.

That's all it takes.

Part of the confusion, I am sure, is my fault. I am assuming we have some sort of collaborative problem-solving culture here. Perhaps we don't. Not yet, anyway.

There are some really nice A/B-T & Conversion monitoring sites out there (including I think some free ones now).  I will poke around and find a few links and post them here.

We don't did this now, but we should. I'd suggest this as part of an over-all change in our web presence and IT. The big question is, what to measure?

The "buddy" ideas are really a key idea from that area.

I like the buddy idea. Thoughts on the best way to find, assign, switch, manage, etc.?
Title: Re: Why only 776
Post by: maxxoccupancy on November 18, 2009, 12:00:42 am
I just type the first thing that comes to mind without giving it any thought.  It's way more efficient.

Like forum telepathy, eh.
Title: Re: Why only 776
Post by: creaganlios on November 20, 2009, 08:10:53 am
I'm thinking the counter isn't working.

My partner signed up using his boston address, went in to the site last night, and changed status to 'already moved,' and the counter never changed. We spent quite some time trying to figure out how to get him 'counted,' and gave up.  I wonder how many others have done the same...
Title: Re: Why only 776
Post by: Dreepa on November 20, 2009, 11:05:39 am
I'm thinking the counter isn't working.

My partner signed up using his boston address, went in to the site last night, and changed status to 'already moved,' and the counter never changed. We spent quite some time trying to figure out how to get him 'counted,' and gave up.  I wonder how many others have done the same...
thom PM me and I will look into it.
Title: Re: Why only 776
Post by: Bazil on November 20, 2009, 03:04:28 pm
Something I think would really help is getting people in the FSP to appear in more positive public venues.    Like Glenn Beck is very like minded with the FSP so it seems to me that someone would be able to convince  him to have someone from the FSP on his show.  Maybe someone who knows someone who could pull some strings or something?
Title: Re: Why only 776
Post by: Dreepa on November 21, 2009, 10:10:30 am
Something I think would really help is getting people in the FSP to appear in more positive public venues.    Like Glenn Beck is very like minded with the FSP so it seems to me that someone would be able to convince  him to have someone from the FSP on his show.  Maybe someone who knows someone who could pull some strings or something?

we have tried in the past to get on.... he did have Dan Itse on who mentioned the FSP (and the website got LOTS of hits)

I have tried some 'backdoor' channels to get on.

IF we could get X number more FSPers elected in 2010 that might be worth a story.

(Hint lots of those FSPers are going to need money to run effective campaigns.)
Title: Re: Why only 776
Post by: creaganlios on November 21, 2009, 10:40:10 am
On the other hand, if we are to be identified with Glenn Beck, we might as well give up the "Free" in the "Free State Project" and call it the Blood Red State Project.  I am not interested in being identified with hystrionics, anti-intellectualism,  or the Theocratic Right...and that iswhat Beck represents to me.
Title: Re: Why only 776
Post by: sj on November 21, 2009, 11:09:23 am
On the other hand, if we are to be identified with Glenn Beck, we might as well give up the "Free" in the "Free State Project" and call it the Blood Red State Project.  I am not interested in being identified with hystrionics, anti-intellectualism,  or the Theocratic Right...and that iswhat Beck represents to me.

You probably already know that many of the people who have moved to NH are what you would probably consider members of the "theocratic right" in that they are conservative, religious, and hold a Dan Itse-type view of government and liberty
Title: Re: Why only 776
Post by: John Edward Mercier on November 21, 2009, 02:33:59 pm
I think Thom is referencing that is not liberty... just enforcing a different viewpoint.
Title: Re: Why only 776
Post by: maybesomeday on November 21, 2009, 03:44:07 pm
A little different from the direction the thread is going, but related to the main topic....

Since the government health care bill is probably going to get passed soon, there will be a large number of believers in small government who will be upset for the next few weeks.  It may be a great opportunity to do some recruiting both in person and on sites like campaignforliberty  ...I realize that the FSP is not involved much in national politics, but the passage of this bill may help motivate some people to be willing to do something in the fight against the growth of government.
Title: Re: Why only 776
Post by: rossby on November 21, 2009, 03:51:56 pm
A little different from the direction the thread is going, but related to the main topic....

Since the government health care bill is probably going to get passed soon, there will be a large number of believers in small government who will be upset for the next few weeks.  It may be a great opportunity to do some recruiting both in person and on sites like campaignforliberty  ...I realize that the FSP is not involved much in national politics, but the passage of this bill may help motivate some people to be willing to do something in the fight against the growth of government.

Great suggestion!
Title: Re: Why only 776
Post by: Ad on November 21, 2009, 03:58:59 pm
On the other hand, if we are to be identified with Glenn Beck, we might as well give up the "Free" in the "Free State Project" and call it the Blood Red State Project.  I am not interested in being identified with hystrionics, anti-intellectualism,  or the Theocratic Right...and that iswhat Beck represents to me.

On the other hand, Beck is the most liberty minded person in mass media, at least with a large audience. Boortz has sort of fallen out of favor lately which leaves Beck as the only one.

We shouldn't alienate people because their views aren't a perfect match with every member. I would rather have 20k Beck fans move than 20k Keith Olbermann ones...
Title: Re: Why only 776
Post by: rossby on November 21, 2009, 04:15:48 pm
On the other hand, if we are to be identified with Glenn Beck, we might as well give up the "Free" in the "Free State Project" and call it the Blood Red State Project.  I am not interested in being identified with hystrionics, anti-intellectualism,  or the Theocratic Right...and that iswhat Beck represents to me.

On the other hand, Beck is the most liberty minded person in mass media, at least with a large audience. Boortz has sort of fallen out of favor lately which leaves Beck as the only one.

I would rather have 20k Beck fans move than 20k Keith Olbermann ones...

If they agree to the Statement of Intent (http://www.freestateproject.org/soi), I don't care who they're fans of.
Title: Re: Why only 776
Post by: creaganlios on November 21, 2009, 05:08:23 pm
I think Thom is referencing that is not liberty... just enforcing a different viewpoint.


No, not really.  I have no problems with religious folks..I am deeply religious myself, a former bible church pastor, orthodox church cantor, and current vestry member of St James Episcopal Church in Keene.  However, I have a BIG problem with those who would use th eengine of the state to fix a social blueprint on society...and to be honest, whle Dan Itse and his apostles are right 80% of the time, the 20% of the time they are wrong are deal-killers for me.
Title: Re: Why only 776
Post by: John Edward Mercier on November 21, 2009, 05:23:19 pm
Sort of what I am saying.

Its not so much that people disagree 20% of the time... its when one group intends to force the other to accept their position on that 20%.
Title: Re: Why only 776
Post by: maybesomeday on November 21, 2009, 06:21:36 pm
A little different from the direction the thread is going, but related to the main topic....

Since the government health care bill is probably going to get passed soon, there will be a large number of believers in small government who will be upset for the next few weeks.  It may be a great opportunity to do some recruiting both in person and on sites like campaignforliberty  ...I realize that the FSP is not involved much in national politics, but the passage of this bill may help motivate some people to be willing to do something in the fight against the growth of government.

Great suggestion!

Thanks. Is there a list somewhere of websites which are generally liberty friendly but not FSP related?  I think it could be beneficial to form a group which targets certain forums and comment sections whenever significant legislation is passed.  We could have a fairly significant web presence with only a few people commenting on a few websites each.  If it is planned ahead of time (volunteer for a specific sites) we will not have much overlap and less time will be wasted making user accounts.
Title: Re: Why only 776
Post by: Dreepa on November 21, 2009, 10:26:24 pm
A little different from the direction the thread is going, but related to the main topic....

Since the government health care bill is probably going to get passed soon, there will be a large number of believers in small government who will be upset for the next few weeks.  It may be a great opportunity to do some recruiting both in person and on sites like campaignforliberty  ...I realize that the FSP is not involved much in national politics, but the passage of this bill may help motivate some people to be willing to do something in the fight against the growth of government.

Great suggestion!

Thanks. Is there a list somewhere of websites which are generally liberty friendly but not FSP related?  I think it could be beneficial to form a group which targets certain forums and comment sections whenever significant legislation is passed.  We could have a fairly significant web presence with only a few people commenting on a few websites each.  If it is planned ahead of time (volunteer for a specific sites) we will not have much overlap and less time will be wasted making user accounts.

Start here:
http://forum.freestateproject.org/index.php?topic=17963.0
Title: Re: Why only 776
Post by: vab on November 25, 2009, 04:50:25 pm
1. Start a project to write letters to persecuted businesses that are highly taxed or legislatively oppressed asking them to relocate their businesses to NH

I'll try and run with this one.

I will set up a project to write letters to business asking them to consider moving their business operations to NH.  Essentially, an FSP targeted at businesses rather than individuals.  I've set up a group on Facebook for the project.

   http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=179474477293

Please, consider joining and sending letters to selected businesses.  I will also poll businesses about their problems with NH and write letters to lawmakers asking that they address them.

          - VAB
Title: Re: Why only 776
Post by: rossby on November 25, 2009, 04:53:36 pm
I will set up a project to write letters to business asking them to consider moving their business operations to NH.  Essentially, an FSP targeted at businesses rather than individuals.  I've set up a group on Facebook for the project.

Very cool. +karma.
Title: Re: Why only 776
Post by: Dreepa on November 26, 2009, 09:39:34 am
1. Start a project to write letters to persecuted businesses that are highly taxed or legislatively oppressed asking them to relocate their businesses to NH

I'll try and run with this one.

I will set up a project to write letters to business asking them to consider moving their business operations to NH.  Essentially, an FSP targeted at businesses rather than individuals.  I've set up a group on Facebook for the project.

   http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=179474477293

Please, consider joining and sending letters to selected businesses.  I will also poll businesses about their problems with NH and write letters to lawmakers asking that they address them.

          - VAB

Could you write something up for the FSP newsletter?  maybe we can get people to help you?  (The newsletter reaches about 14K people)
Title: Re: Why only 776
Post by: anon37268573 on December 02, 2009, 04:50:47 pm

Another idea I thought of after I posted was doing A/B Testing and conversion stats on the website.  How many people visit the FSP website and then don't sign up?  What do they seem to look at that turns they away.  What (A/B tested) changes would we make that would get more first time visitors to sign up as members or friends?  What about ads sending people to landing pages based on demographics targeted by the ad they clicked on rather than just the home page?

There are some really nice A/B-T & Conversion monitoring sites out there (including I think some free ones now).  I will poke around and find a few links and post them here.

15+ Free A/B Split Testing Resources:

http://www.wingify.com/conversion-blog/15-free-ab-split-testing-resources/

Two of the big players (in order of size) of conversion stats etc:
http://mixpanel.com/
http://www.woopra.com/

   - anon