Free State Project Forum

FSP -- General Discussion => Prospective Participants => Topic started by: WeHoldTheseTruths on May 26, 2003, 06:04:43 pm

Title: So what if 20,000 don't move?
Post by: WeHoldTheseTruths on May 26, 2003, 06:04:43 pm
I was talking to my brother, pitching the whole Free State idea and found myself coming to an interesting revelation.  He was trying to make the all-or-none argument that "like any great utopia, it will never work."

Like the pragmatist he is, he predicted: "Sure, you may get 20,000 people to SAY they will move, but how many will really move when the time comes?  What if you end up packing your bags, setting down new roots, leaving everything you have behind, and come to find that only a fraction of that 20,000 fellow kinsmen-in-liberty follow?"

Yes, indeed... what if?  Yet even in such a scenario, I would end up in a place presumably already freer than where I am at now to begin with, and end up with a leg-up and better off anyway.  Why do some people assume it must be an all-or-none thing, especially at first?  Obviously we should always be focused on the high-goal, set the bar high, but even a few thousand initial activists emigrating could make a huge difference.  And as soon as progress in wittling away at statism was realized -- even just local victories in various counties and townships at first -- the example would only encourage others to follow on in, tracing the initial pioneers' foot-steps.  I'd be proud just to be one of the brave initial pioneers, the first settlers who started the whole migration, risking so much for what Claire Wolfe termed "the great maybe."

I feel that even if a significant number of those who commit to this thing do duck out at the last minute, just the initial dedicated movement of those who DO follow through would create a self-fulfilling prophecy as it were.  I, for one, am not going to be content just waiting to see what happens.  I plan on leaping ahead in front of the pack.  Those who are first to move will get the first pick of jobs, land, etc.  And be able to get established early with more time build and live and experience a new home in a new land of liberty.

Its either that, or sit back and wait as EVERY state slowly falls to authoritarian tyranny.  So why not?  If its either: take a #2 or get off the pot, why not take a #2 early and relieve yourself as soon as possible, as soon as the free-state is chosen?  We really have nothing to lose but what lingering freedoms remain.
Title: Re:So what if 20,000 don't move?
Post by: ShrineGuard on May 26, 2003, 06:16:49 pm
I believe this article addresses that idea:

http://www.freestateproject.org/migration.htm (http://www.freestateproject.org/migration.htm)
Title: Re:So what if 20,000 don't move?
Post by: WeHoldTheseTruths on May 26, 2003, 06:57:18 pm
Thanks for that.  Tim Condon's view pretty much echoes mine on this matter.  He makes the great point that once the state is actually chosen, everyone who signs on after that should already be at least mentally committed for the move, and thus there should be a high follow-up regardless.
Title: Re:So what if 20,000 don't move?
Post by: di540 on May 26, 2003, 08:11:15 pm
I believe this article addresses that idea:

http://www.freestateproject.org/migration.htm (http://www.freestateproject.org/migration.htm)
Quote
And yetit is still possible that we will have only 10,000 actual
migrating Porcupines when we hit the 20,000 mark. To which I would
say, "Take heart! It's a start!" Why? Because the single most
important fact will be that the Free State will have been chosen.
.
The 'success' of migration could be announced by the FSP when
you get 10,000 to move. Once you've cleared that hurdle, growth
in membership should be exponential, & it shouldn't be as hard,
after that official 'success' has been announced, for the FSP
to find the rest of the 20,000 who will actually make the move.
Title: Re:So what if 20,000 don't move?
Post by: BobW on May 27, 2003, 03:02:34 am
Hi We Hold,

I vaguely and faintly remember the migration of people to New York City after the Korean War.  Someone with bus fare and a friend with an apartment or room could arrive and after sitting on a park bench for a day or so with the help wanted ads, be working.

I clearly remember the migration to California in the '60s.  I also followed the fleeing from Calif to "out west" eg Denver and environs.

Like your brother I'm also a pragmatist.  Thus, I realize numbers such as 20K and 10K  are just reference marks.  When the Rockefeller brothers moved to such places such as Arkansas and West Virginia, the best of the political scientists could furnish exacting numbers for their intended political runs for office.

Before World War One, Indiana and Ohio were rural farm communities save the Great Lakes region.  It took World War II to place Texas and California on the map, ie meaning major demographic changes.

Several posts last week described the areas under discussion like vast wilderness areas with a 5 hour drive to Ulan Bator, Mongolia.

If and when working, "where one can live, one can live well."

BobW
Title: Re:So what if 20,000 don't move?
Post by: cathleeninsc on May 27, 2003, 06:53:16 am
I hope after the state is chosen and some migration occurs that the member meter will be split between those who have moved and those still committed to moving.

Cathleen in SC
Title: Re:So what if 20,000 don't move?
Post by: Tony Stelik on May 27, 2003, 08:25:45 am
It is no matter for me if we will succeed with 20000 to move.
For a while now  (few years) I was thinking about moving to Montana, New Hampshire or Main. Also I was considering a move to Costa Rica after their Libertarian success at the elections. Those pissed off at progressive socialism will move. The rest can enjoy the ride.
Title: Re:So what if 20,000 don't move?
Post by: jgmaynard on May 27, 2003, 01:55:31 pm
We're already seeing a "bandwagon effect" here in New Hampshire.... We have almost 30 members in office, lots more on the way. Because of that and the FSP, friendly Republicans in office are welcoming us in, so that we can help them on fiscal issues. Even the chair of the NH GOP is pro-FSP. ;D
We had a very powerful caucus in the state house a few years ago, we will again, very soon.

JM
Title: Re:So what if 20,000 don't move?
Post by: craft_6 on May 29, 2003, 09:44:26 am
The 'success' of migration could be announced by the FSP when
you get 10,000 to move. Once you've cleared that hurdle, growth
in membership should be exponential, & it shouldn't be as hard,
after that official 'success' has been announced, for the FSP
to find the rest of the 20,000 who will actually make the move.

I favor the idea of posting on the website the number of Porcupines already in the selected state, once it is chosen.  When the FSP reaches 5,000 and selects the state, find out how many live there already and post it on the homepage, right next to the number of members.  Update it every month as more Porcupines move to the selected state, even while trying to grow membership from 5,000 to 20,000.

No one is committed to move until 20,000 is reached, of course, but I suspect that after 2+ years of planning, many FSPers are ready to pack up the U-Haul as soon as possible.  Knowing that there are 1,000, or 1,500, or 2,000 fellow liberty activists already on the ground in the selected state can only encourage others to join.
Title: Re:So what if 20,000 don't move?
Post by: freedomroad on May 30, 2003, 02:34:51 pm
The 'success' of migration could be announced by the FSP when
you get 10,000 to move. Once you've cleared that hurdle, growth
in membership should be exponential, & it shouldn't be as hard,
after that official 'success' has been announced, for the FSP
to find the rest of the 20,000 who will actually make the move.

I favor the idea of posting on the website the number of Porcupines already in the selected state, once it is chosen.  When the FSP reaches 5,000 and selects the state, find out how many live there already and post it on the homepage, right next to the number of members.  Update it every month as more Porcupines move to the selected state, even while trying to grow membership from 5,000 to 20,000.

No one is committed to move until 20,000 is reached, of course, but I suspect that after 2+ years of planning, many FSPers are ready to pack up the U-Haul as soon as possible.  Knowing that there are 1,000, or 1,500, or 2,000 fellow liberty activists already on the ground in the selected state can only encourage others to join.

If we are not able to reach 20,000 members, this is the best possible way to split the membership and destroy the FSP.  

If ID or NH or even MT is picked and we only get 15,000 members, it does not make much sense to state with that state.  Likely, the FSP will fall apart and two new groups will appear.  One that want to move to WY and another that wants to move to ID, NH, or MT.  Most of the people in the WY group will be the people that have not yet moved, hopefully 80% or more of our membership and the other group will be made up of mostly people that moved to early.  With 12,000 people in MT we could still do more than 20,000 in ID or MT, so it might still work out, but only time will tell.

The best was to avoid all of this is to warn the members to not move until at least 15,000 or so people have signed up.  Likely, Jason or the board or someone will write just such an article after we vote on a state.

Unless it is a state like WY or AK, but Jason should likely write the article, anyway.
Title: Re:So what if 20,000 don't move?
Post by: goon on June 05, 2003, 09:33:25 pm
If you don't get 20,000...
There will still be 19,999 very happy, very lucky, more liberated people in a state that is already full of relatively liberated people.
Even if this thing "fails" it will still not be a bad thing.