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FSP -- General Discussion => Prospective Participants => Topic started by: MK on April 24, 2009, 11:01:48 am

Title: "This movement is Snowballing, More in Keene, than Anywhere."
Post by: MK on April 24, 2009, 11:01:48 am
"This movement is Snowballing, More in Keene, than anywhere."
  Dale (anarchyinyourhead.com)

Dale made this comment on Free Keene.com's Forum website and I couldn't agree more.  I think it's due in large part because the town of Keene is so small and the number of Activiists are so busy and large, compared to other areas in New Hampshire...and so the participants and the mission of more Freedom are much more visable. 

Please don't misunderstand that there are not good people doing great things in other parts of the state because there are.  But what makes Keene's Activists so different is the majority choose to take on the system Peacefully from the "Outside" first ("breaking, challenging Tyrant law), and then battle it from the "Inside" (peacefully fighting the "Justice" system, from jail sometimes, etc.).

This peaceful Initiation/Attitude of wanting More Liberty Now, coupled with the fact that it's also being covered by the Liberty Media (Headquarted in Keene), is like a Tornado faning a Wildfire. 

Are those in Keene more Impatient, for more Liberty, than anyone else?  I don't know.  But what I do know is, if You are Excited and Impatient for more Liberty, then I'd have to recommend you check out this NH postcard "town" of Keene, because as the man said....

"This Movement is Snowballing, More in Keene, than Anywhere."   






Title: Re: "This movement is Snowballing, More in Keene, than Anywhere."
Post by: Antijingoist on April 24, 2009, 12:42:36 pm
I'll second that!
It's my main reason for wanting to stay in Keene. Compared to Keene, it appears that every other city is virtually stationary.
Title: Re: "This movement is Snowballing, More in Keene, than Anywhere."
Post by: MK on April 24, 2009, 03:58:18 pm
I'll second that!
It's my main reason for wanting to stay in Keene. Compared to Keene, it appears that every other city is virtually stationary.

I think there's tremendous work being done by those outside of Keene, (ex: State reps elected, NH Liberty Rating, tax initiative battles, etc), but it's not as "exciting" as when people get arrested, etc., so it's easy to discount.  That coupled with the fact that Keene is becoming/is the Liberty Media Headquarters of the World, is going to add to that because Keene's Activism is going to be well covered. 

For example, I bet Free Talk Live could fill up a show and thensome if everyone outside of Keene called in, or emailed them and told them what Activism they've been doing.
Title: Re: "This movement is Snowballing, More in Keene, than Anywhere."
Post by: sj on April 24, 2009, 04:46:03 pm
If a person is interested in civ dis, that is true.  I don't know how well political, inside-the-system activism would work in Keene.  Andrew may soon show us.
Title: Re: "This movement is Snowballing, More in Keene, than Anywhere."
Post by: maxxoccupancy on April 24, 2009, 05:13:12 pm
If your main issue is just civil disobedience, I would go to Manchester, because the CD work those folks are doing is much more productive, and is more "illegal community service" type of CD.  The city is also great for both state and local politics, since there are so many projects to choose from, and because one third of all State Legislators are elected from within a 15 minute drive of Manchester.  Concord is only a 20 minute drive up 93, and about 40 State Reps come from just that one city.

To be fair, there are not as many residents in Keene as Manchester, but there are WAY more porcs in Manchester than in Keene and adjacent towns, more friends of the fsp, more elected proliberty reps, and more new movers coming in--just to Manchester by itself.  There are more proliberty businesses, residents, and Ron Paul signs in people's yards in towns like Seabrook, Manchester, Deerfield, and towns that haven't even seen freestater migrations yet.

Look at it this way:  How many years will it take before Keene area towns are as proliberty as Grafton, Seabrook, or even Deerfield.  How long will it be before their police departments are as friendly as those in other parts of the state?  In the four years of Keene activism and recruiting, how many bad public officials have been fired, there.  We have more political accomplishments to mention in one year in Seabrook than in four with statist Keene.

Point being:  A LOT of the people I knew in Keene HATE freedom and freedom lovers.  You cannot have hate and liberty in the same place.  Liberty depends on RESPECT for the rights of other people, and you don't find enough people out there who are willing to question life-long assumptions.  Please take a look at the voting results out there for pro-liberty candidates.  A proliberty Republican or Democratic candidate sees third party results after campaigning hard.  In Manchester, there are districts where a 100% proliberty candidate can just put signs up and doorbell to get elected and re-elected year after year.
Title: Re: "This movement is Snowballing, More in Keene, than Anywhere."
Post by: Sam A. Robrin on April 24, 2009, 06:31:06 pm
KEENE, NEW HAMPSHIRE      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DspcTcVslsI
COPYRIGHT 2009 by Sam A. Robrin or whoever the hell it is who writes these things. Go ahead and use it (Hell, I lifted the melody!), but if you make a little money on it, I want some!

If you're moving to Keene, New Hampshire,
You're set to work for freedom in your time.
If you're moving to Keene, New Hampshire,
You're going to find a chill and craggy clime.
And those who move to Keene, New Hampshire,
Don't fear to face the mountains there to climb.
Breathe the air of Keene, New Hampshire:
Activism in action all the time.

'Midst the hope that it's bringing,
You can hear freedom ringing:
Free minds existing.
Exponential improvement
In the liberty movement--
People persisting . . . People resisting.

All those who move to Keene, New Hampshire,
Welcome the challenge of mountains there to climb.
Breathe the air of Keene, New Hampshire:
Activism in action all the time.
Title: Re: "This movement is Snowballing, More in Keene, than Anywhere."
Post by: Floridian on April 24, 2009, 06:42:54 pm
If your main issue is just civil disobedience, I would go to Manchester, because the CD work those folks are doing is much more productive, and is more "illegal community service" type of CD.  The city is also great for both state and local politics, since there are so many projects to choose from, and because one third of all State Legislators are elected from within a 15 minute drive of Manchester.  Concord is only a 20 minute drive up 93, and about 40 State Reps come from just that one city.

To be fair, there are not as many residents in Keene as Manchester, but there are WAY more porcs in Manchester than in Keene and adjacent towns, more friends of the fsp, more elected proliberty reps, and more new movers coming in--just to Manchester by itself.  There are more proliberty businesses, residents, and Ron Paul signs in people's yards in towns like Seabrook, Manchester, Deerfield, and towns that haven't even seen freestater migrations yet.

Look at it this way:  How many years will it take before Keene area towns are as proliberty as Grafton, Seabrook, or even Deerfield.  How long will it be before their police departments are as friendly as those in other parts of the state?  In the four years of Keene activism and recruiting, how many bad public officials have been fired, there.  We have more political accomplishments to mention in one year in Seabrook than in four with statist Keene.

Point being:  A LOT of the people I knew in Keene HATE freedom and freedom lovers.  You cannot have hate and liberty in the same place.  Liberty depends on RESPECT for the rights of other people, and you don't find enough people out there who are willing to question life-long assumptions.  Please take a look at the voting results out there for pro-liberty candidates.  A proliberty Republican or Democratic candidate sees third party results after campaigning hard.  In Manchester, there are districts where a 100% proliberty candidate can just put signs up and doorbell to get elected and re-elected year after year.

I wouldn't take away from civil disobedience, but I think working the system is more effective. 
Title: Re: "This movement is Snowballing, More in Keene, than Anywhere."
Post by: Dave Mincin on April 24, 2009, 07:53:35 pm
"This movement is Snowballing, More in Keene, than anywhere."

Hey guys, I think you are doing a great job, but thinking the statement above is a bit of a ???

Anything to back that up?  Your certainly are leading in the civil disobedience, but have you elected
anyone, or do you have anyone elected or appointed to any local government positions?

There are lots of folks who have moved to NH.  They just don't make the noise you guys do. :)

Come on guys...if you'rr going to say that, back it up with something. :)
Title: Re: "This movement is Snowballing, More in Keene, than Anywhere."
Post by: Antijingoist on April 24, 2009, 09:59:05 pm
"This movement is Snowballing, More in Keene, than anywhere."

Hey guys, I think you are doing a great job, but thinking the statement above is a bit of a ???

Anything to back that up?  Your certainly are leading in the civil disobedience, but have you elected
anyone, or do you have anyone elected or appointed to any local government positions?

There are lots of folks who have moved to NH.  They just don't make the noise you guys do. :)

Come on guys...if you'rr going to say that, back it up with something. :)

I got an idea! Let's back it up with noise!!!!
/me yells like crazy!
    :D
Title: Re: "This movement is Snowballing, More in Keene, than Anywhere."
Post by: MK on April 25, 2009, 01:13:29 am
"This movement is Snowballing, More in Keene, than anywhere."

Hey guys, I think you are doing a great job, but thinking the statement above is a bit of a ???

Anything to back that up?  Your certainly are leading in the civil disobedience, but have you elected
anyone, or do you have anyone elected or appointed to any local government positions?

There are lots of folks who have moved to NH.  They just don't make the noise you guys do. :)

Come on guys...if you'rr going to say that, back it up with something. :)

Dave, I thought you were aware of who was elected and where.   Keene has not elected anyone YET, but with the recent influx of newbies showing up, there is now a strong interest in pursuing that route as well.  So on that front, all I can say is there's now interest and look for FSP Bureaucrats in the Keene, sooner than later.

I think you would agree that Keene is quite possibly the MOST Statist city in NH, and thus consequently makes it the most difficult project.  But the individuals who choose to live there are willing to accept the challenge.  I'm guessing, but I'd say it is very likely the most difficult place to achive Liberty in NH.   

So as you must know, Keene is the Liberty Media Headquarters of the World, and home to biggest blowhorn the FSP now has, Free Talk Live and ALL THE REST of the Liberty Media that beams out of the Keene area.   But did you know the Local Gov in Keene is truly in a Panic State as they keep getting their buttons pushed and it just keeps building, all the while exposing the Tyrants for who they are?

As you probably know, the individuals in Keene aren't trying to change things like most people would.  I guess that's why I like them so much is because they are blazing their own trail, doing things their way, testing the system like it's never been quite tested before, (Have a SEAT!, Have a SEAT!)  You must admit, it's been fantastic theatre. 

On one hand I think you would agree it's difficult to compare the two because it's like,  Keene vs the rest of NH, generally speaking,  with both approaches  being entirely different.   I think we have a lot of work to do to win this thing called Libety and I applaud everyone and anyone who has done anything in the pursuit of more Liberty for everyone.


I veiw Keene's effort as attacking Tyranny, at its Root.  I think it's the toughest battle so I don't think results will come fast, but I'd say they are off to a great start!  I do think it's very likely there's going to be a Supreme Court case coming out of Keene, sooner than later.

Here's a list of the upcoming peaceful challenges from the Liberty Activists for the City of Keene.  Dave Ridley, (whatever happended to his arraignment?), Andrew, I think his name is, the Marijuana CD, Jessie, Gardening on part of his land for the public good,  Activists arrested for peacefully being in a Public lobby and of course Sam I am, (for recording) presently in jail and building a huge civil rights case, and whose story, I hear, is starting to attract National Headlines with many others around the Globe hearing about it as well ,as I think people are hungry for this. 

I think you'd agree the Keene Activists approach is "unique" and I think to base their success on a head count of FSP Bureaucrats would be mistake.

Without question, the result of the above is going to equal even more people moving to NH, and Especially Keene, in particular.

Keene Activists have also been saving people parking tickets (Ticketless Tuesdays), have been donating food on a monthly basis for the Community and they have also been handing out Fully Informed Jury Association information to all potential Jurors Every Month, for quite some time now and the latest "disobedience" being considered is an effort reach out to Law Enforcement, on a social basis.

Keene Activists are going about achieving more Liberty, their own way, now, in the face of the book and by the book (sam) and so I applaud them.  I would imagine their strategy wouldn't sit too great with some but I think what people need to keep in mind is that these activists are always Peaceful in their acts of CD.  To each is own, because at the end of the day, we're all in this together and I know everyone in Keene appreciates everything that everyone Outside of Keene is doing in the name of winning more Liberty.  Just a "slight" difference in methods, but again, it's all peaceful.

I say we hold onto our hats and enjoy everyones' "Noise"  :)

Title: Re: "This movement is Snowballing, More in Keene, than Anywhere."
Post by: sj on April 25, 2009, 02:51:35 pm
Dave, I thought you were aware of who was elected and where. ???  Keene has not elected anyone YET, but with the recent influx of newbies showing up, there is now a strong interest in pursuing that route as well.  So on that front, all I can say is "don't blink" as you'll have your FSP Bureaucrats in the Keene, sooner than later.

Does that mean they will *GASP* participate in the "system?"  :o



I don't think Keene people should be surprised that, since the Keeniacs don't make it clear that they don't represent the entire FSP, others will be sure to distance themselves from them in order to make that clear.  People like Amand P, in the early days of the FSP, were always quick to explain that the FSP was not an anarchist group.  I'm sure it was appreciated by the less-loud majority.
Title: Re: "This movement is Snowballing, More in Keene, than Anywhere."
Post by: MK on April 25, 2009, 05:06:20 pm
Dave, I thought you were aware of who was elected and where. ???  Keene has not elected anyone YET, but with the recent influx of newbies showing up, there is now a strong interest in pursuing that route as well.  So on that front, all I can say is "don't blink" as you'll have your FSP Bureaucrats in the Keene, sooner than later.

Does that mean they will *GASP* participate in the "system?"  :o



I don't think Keene people should be surprised that, since the Keeniacs don't make it clear that they don't represent the entire FSP, others will be sure to distance themselves from them in order to make that clear.  People like Amand P, in the early days of the FSP, were always quick to explain that the FSP was not an anarchist group.  I'm sure it was appreciated by the less-loud majority.

I don't think so on the GASP because it's new people who are grabbing those Reins and they are truly into it, in addition, it's attracting support from some of those allready there, who haven't been interested, until now.  I think what you'll see is extremly motivated, professional work done. 

That's a good point about the FSP association.  I've noticed the words "Liberty Activists" being used more often to describe FSP CD (myself included) and I think I 've heard Ian say the FSP is a Bus and that it goes away, once you get here.   I think more of that by eveyone would be a good thing, in state.

I imagine the Keene Liberty Activists methods don't sit too well with some but I think everyone needs to keep in mind the Keenes CD is always Peaceful actions.   

As far as the FSP and what it is, as you know it says/defines the maximum role of Gov (but it doesn't talk about the extent at which the minimum can go!  :)

And yes, I would absolutely agree that the FSP is NOT an Anarchist group and I think that's how almost everyone percieves it (except maybe for those who are watching the "Carnival" in Keene).
Title: Re: "This movement is Snowballing, More in Keene, than Anywhere."
Post by: maxxoccupancy on April 26, 2009, 01:38:50 pm
If your main issue is just civil disobedience, I would go to Manchester, because the CD work those folks are doing is much more productive, and is more "illegal community service" type of CD.  The city is also great for both state and local politics, since there are so many projects to choose from, and because one third of all State Legislators are elected from within a 15 minute drive of Manchester.  Concord is only a 20 minute drive up 93, and about 40 State Reps come from just that one city.

To be fair, there are not as many residents in Keene as Manchester, but there are WAY more porcs in Manchester than in Keene and adjacent towns, more friends of the fsp, more elected proliberty reps, and more new movers coming in--just to Manchester by itself.  There are more proliberty businesses, residents, and Ron Paul signs in people's yards in towns like Seabrook, Manchester, Deerfield, and towns that haven't even seen freestater migrations yet.

Look at it this way:  How many years will it take before Keene area towns are as proliberty as Grafton, Seabrook, or even Deerfield.  How long will it be before their police departments are as friendly as those in other parts of the state?  In the four years of Keene activism and recruiting, how many bad public officials have been fired, there.  We have more political accomplishments to mention in one year in Seabrook than in four with statist Keene.

Point being:  A LOT of the people I knew in Keene HATE freedom and freedom lovers.  You cannot have hate and liberty in the same place.  Liberty depends on RESPECT for the rights of other people, and you don't find enough people out there who are willing to question life-long assumptions.  Please take a look at the voting results out there for pro-liberty candidates.  A proliberty Republican or Democratic candidate sees third party results after campaigning hard.  In Manchester, there are districts where a 100% proliberty candidate can just put signs up and doorbell to get elected and re-elected year after year.

I wouldn't take away from civil disobedience, but I think working the system is more effective. 

Dave Ridley does all three: CD (productive CD, like Rosa Parks stuff), voting, and volunteer work.  He sometimes finds a way to combine two or more, and organizes others to do the same.  He would like to get arrested doing clean ups, and that's probably the most publicly shocking thing that average Jo Voter can read about it the newspaper.  As in, "Why did the cops arrest those young people for picking up litter?"
Title: Re: "This movement is Snowballing, More in Keene, than Anywhere."
Post by: maxxoccupancy on April 26, 2009, 01:50:01 pm
"This movement is Snowballing, More in Keene, than anywhere."

Hey guys, I think you are doing a great job, but thinking the statement above is a bit of a ???

Anything to back that up?  Your certainly are leading in the civil disobedience, but have you elected
anyone, or do you have anyone elected or appointed to any local government positions?

There are lots of folks who have moved to NH.  They just don't make the noise you guys do. :)

Come on guys...if you'rr going to say that, back it up with something. :)

+1.  Dave can point to real successes in Barrington.  I can point to successes already in Seabrook.  Karl Beisel and Keith Murphy have helped make strides in Manchester.  Almost all of us can point to bills we've helped kill in Concord.

Keene folks are doing a lot of stuff, but it actually seems like the cops, zoning enforcement, tax collectors, judges, and prosecutors are getting more aggressive.  Have any spending projects been stopped?  Have any innocent people been rightfully cleared?  Are the taxes lower?  I keep hearing on FTL, "I want to be free for ME, for MY sake..."  There are a lot of people who've moved to New Hampshire who are dedicating themselves to public service and political activism for the sake of helping out other liberty lovers in New Hampshire.  The signal to noise ratio is much better in the rest of the state.
Title: Re: "This movement is Snowballing, More in Keene, than Anywhere."
Post by: eileenwilson47 on April 26, 2009, 01:54:12 pm
How is the movement going by Manchester and Concord...or around there.  We're looking to live somewhere between?  Receptive?
Title: Re: "This movement is Snowballing, More in Keene, than Anywhere."
Post by: TEBON on April 26, 2009, 02:06:02 pm
When every position elected is a liberty activist, can we then get rid of their positions?  Or will I have to keep paying to keep those people working on defending my liberty?  

Stealing is still stealing even if you're only stealing a little.

From the moment I started reading about the FSP it always sounded like the civil disobedience crowd was downplaying victories and great activism coming from the political side.  Lately, that's been slowing simply because it seems that some of the principled crowd is entering into this god awful system in a comedic attempt to point out it's incidiousness.   Also, lately, it seems the political crowd has taken quite a nasty position against those that are boots on the ground and pushing to take back their freedoms as opposed to defending the few freedoms we do have.

What's bringing more like minded (if you're principled) people to NH?  I haven't heard one person say they've moved because a few awesome freestaters were elected.  I've heard lots of people move because of the courage of the "weird, kooky" civil disobedience crowd.

If you're not free for yourself, how could you possibly be able to help others to be free?  Some people like to do the whole 'dress up' thing and put on a suit and feel important.  The political system is for people who want to be that type of superstar, a political one.  I'm all for voting to help, holding a sign, talking to people about good options to vote on spending bills.  I do this regularly.

The knocking down of spending bills is getting a lot of great conservatives to move to NH.  The courage and strength of the Keene freedom movement is getting a lot of great principled true libertarians to move to NH.   

It's too bad, I took the side of the politicos when the whole schism thing happened.  I was angry that the CD crowd wouldn't help out by even voting to help the politicos out.

Most of the politicos I've heard bitching (yeah a quite APT word) about the CD crowd are conservatives in the first place.  Basically, a person that calls themselves a "freestater" but would be very happy enslaving me to pay for their worldly desires.  That is not a libertarian.  That is not a principle I care to even deal with.  For this movement to work, it's going to take people pushing more towards their principle as opposed to giving in and hoping some people come around.  They're not coming around.

All in all, Keene is at Ghandi's "fight you" stage while the rest seem to still be at the "laughing at you" or "ignoring you" stage.  I would say that Seabrook in particular isn't even at a stage yet because no one even knows it exists here.

I'm going to wal-mart right now followed by a gas station.  I'll ask at least 5 people if they know what the FSP is.   The noise gets the idea out. . .the principles are what get people to change their minds and move towards freedom.
Title: Re: "This movement is Snowballing, More in Keene, than Anywhere."
Post by: sj on April 26, 2009, 02:12:32 pm
Most of the politicos I've heard bitching (yeah a quite APT word) about the CD crowd are conservatives in the first place.  Basically, a person that calls themselves a "freestater" but would be very happy enslaving me to pay for their worldly desires.  That is not a libertarian.  

Not all freestaters are libertarians and most freestaters aren't anarchists.  So yeah, people can "call themselves freestaters" and still disagree with you.  That's why the use of the word is pointless for those that have already moved to NH (besides the fact that, after you've moved, the term free stater ceases to be important since you've already fulfilled your pledge).
Title: Re: "This movement is Snowballing, More in Keene, than Anywhere."
Post by: TEBON on April 26, 2009, 02:18:40 pm
Dave, I thought you were aware of who was elected and where. ???  Keene has not elected anyone YET, but with the recent influx of newbies showing up, there is now a strong interest in pursuing that route as well.  So on that front, all I can say is "don't blink" as you'll have your FSP Bureaucrats in the Keene, sooner than later.
I don't think Keene people should be surprised that, since the Keeniacs don't make it clear that they don't represent the entire FSP, others will be sure to distance themselves from them in order to make that clear.  People like Amand P, in the early days of the FSP, were always quick to explain that the FSP was not an anarchist group.  I'm sure it was appreciated by the less-loud majority.

thank god it's not an anarchist group, I don't know what I'd do without the threat of someone kicking my door in at any moment without a way to defend myself.

The less loud majority seems like they're people that don't have a problem stealing from me to pay for their bombs and shiny police badges.  I think the less loud majority should start a project moving lots of sometimes liberty minded people to the same state.

How could anyone possibly represent the entire FSP?  I would like to be able to, so maybe a member of the Less Vocal Majority can explain to me how they differentiate from the normal conservative or liberal douches, and how they're going to help me be free?

I've seen the CD crowd show up for important things in Concord. . .I did myself.  Where are the politicos when it comes to civil disobedience?  That's right. . . you gotta maintain the "image" right?

Does this image include a swastika?  Should I be friends with those people?  When those majority finally get their smaller government are they going to be okay with me not participating in their little political game?  Are those people going to claim authority over something (or me)?  Are taxes going to be levied?  Is my property going to be mine, and not their 'small' governments?

Who will the majority bomb first?  I fear that the less vocal majority lately are more about "help us now, and then later we'll just take your money"

If so, count me out. . . when I say I don't want to hurt other people or steal their money, I mean it.  That's liberty.  That also disqualifies me from participating in the 'majority's'  games.

can people call themselves Freestaters and still steal my money?  When(if) those people decide to drop the term "freestater" from their vocabulary. . does that give them right to take my money to pay for their things?
Title: Re: "This movement is Snowballing, More in Keene, than Anywhere."
Post by: Dave Mincin on April 26, 2009, 06:04:01 pm
Markus...Don't get me wrong.  I haven't been to Keene since last summer and that was to a party and Dawn and Bill's, so I really don't have a handle on what is going on
in Keene.  I think it is great folks are moving there, I just take issue with those who say it is the center of the freedom movement in NH.  You see I know a lot of folks, and
I know they are working there butts off all over NH promoting freedom.  They are the folks who don't look for fame or glory,show up in the paper, or on the videos, but when we need help, they are the first to
raise there hand in support.  I don't think the internet folks even realize what they are doing or how important they are to our movement.

Sometimes I get a little muffed, when I perceive there efforts are not being recognized.  For my thought, they are the folks who deserve the credit, and will be the reason
we save freedom.

So anyway, you know what they say about opinions, :)
Title: Re: "This movement is Snowballing, More in Keene, than Anywhere."
Post by: maxxoccupancy on April 26, 2009, 06:18:00 pm
Markus...Don't get me wrong.  I haven't been to Keene since last summer and that was to a party and Dawn and Bill's, so I really don't have a handle on what is going on
in Keene.  I think it is great folks are moving there, I just take issue with those who say it is the center of the freedom movement in NH.  You see I know a lot of folks, and
I know they are working there butts off all over NH promoting freedom.  They are the folks who don't look for fame or glory,show up in the paper, or on the videos, but when we need help, they are the first to
raise there hand in support.  I don't think the internet folks even realize what they are doing or how important they are to our movement.

Sometimes I get a little muffed, when I perceive there efforts are not being recognized.  For my thought, they are the folks who deserve the credit, and will be the reason
we save freedom.

So anyway, you know what they say about opinions, :)

+1  There's tons of activism going on all over.  We don't have our own radio station out here, but we do meet up, and we do help to change things on the 'coast.  Far more has been going on just in Manchester than in Keene.  The CD and political work they do is far from kooky.  Manchester porcs have a lot of accomplishments to crow about, and plenty of close calls on tax and spending measures.  I don't believe it to be right when the 5% of folks who are doing the Keene thing are calling their town the center of all activism in the state.  That tends to downplay the work of the other 95%, including those of us who moved back in 2004--or even 2003.
Title: Re: "This movement is Snowballing, More in Keene, than Anywhere."
Post by: Luck on April 26, 2009, 10:37:35 pm
Quote: I veiw Keene's effort as attacking Tyranny, at its Root. ... 5 Activists arrested for peacefully being in a Public lobby and of course Sam I am, (for recording) presently in jail and building a huge civil rights case, and whose story, I hear, is starting to attract National Headlines with many others around the Globe hearing about it as well, as I think people are hungry for this. Unquote.
* I'm confused as to how people who understand and deplore statism can expect National Headlines about Libertarian civil disobedience to be given a positive spin by the statist lapdog media and expect any Supreme Court would make a finding that truly supports liberty and reduces statism. If anything positive comes of high-level political activism of such kinds, I'll be both pleased and shocked.
* However, Libertarians are already a cross between Liberals and Conservatives, which means we're "moderates", and we should capitalize on that and try to win both liberals and conservatives to the Libertarian cause by being friendly and understanding of both sides' concerns, instead of scaring both sides with impressions of being radicals or terrorists. I'm not saying that Keeners don't seem to try to be friendly, but I think we all need to be mindful of how people perceive us and try to be perceived realistically as true "patriots" or true friends of all. It sounds like Keeners are fairly mindful of that, but I don't know what evidence you all have that civil disobedience will work any more. It seems to me that the statists learned long ago how to spin that and everything else to their own advantage.

Title: Re: "This movement is Snowballing, More in Keene, than Anywhere."
Post by: dalebert on April 26, 2009, 11:37:27 pm
That quote can sound misleading out of context. I know that I was feeling incredibly optimistic about the FSP in general and particularly in Keene. My personal experience is Keene, after all. But more importantly, we've had a recent boom in new movers that is hugely disproportionate to the past numbers, i.e. "snow-balling". The reason for that boom, based on what we hear str8 out of the mouths of the new movers, is that they were inspired by recent CD activism like Ian's couch incident and now Sam's and the other 6 who got arrested or summonses.

So I think we should all be optimistic. Numbers seem to be up all around and we should all be patting each other on the back and sharing in some renewed inspiration for future activism in all the various forms that we choose to partake of.
Title: Re: "This movement is Snowballing, More in Keene, than Anywhere."
Post by: dalebert on April 26, 2009, 11:56:05 pm
... Keene is the Liberty Headquarters of the World ...

I think we should be careful to clarify that it is, or at least is quickly becoming, the Liberty Media Capitol. I'm sure I've said as much but it's important that you don't leave out that key word. Otherwise, I'd not be surprised that some people would feel like their activism efforts are being downplayed.
Title: Re: "This movement is Snowballing, More in Keene, than Anywhere."
Post by: MK on April 27, 2009, 12:59:44 am
Quote: I veiw Keene's effort as attacking Tyranny, at its Root. ... 5 Activists arrested for peacefully being in a Public lobby and of course Sam I am, (for recording) presently in jail and building a huge civil rights case, and whose story, I hear, is starting to attract National Headlines with many others around the Globe hearing about it as well, as I think people are hungry for this. Unquote.
* I'm confused as to how people who understand and deplore statism can expect National Headlines about Libertarian civil disobedience to be given a positive spin by the statist lapdog media and expect any Supreme Court would make a finding that truly supports liberty and reduces statism. If anything positive comes of high-level political activism of such kinds, I'll be both pleased and shocked.


I'm sorry you're confused, let me try again.  People can just do Nothing because they've given up and know better than everyone else, or they can take a stand and try something, in order to get something started.  Keene Sentenial Headlines were made, some bloggers picked it, People from as far as Australia and beyond heard about it via Free Talk Live and it's consequently encouraging even more people to move to New Hampshire, most likely Keene, and there's nothing like more new blood than you expected, to get people excited (and we don't know of how many other untolds are now considering moving.

Like Dale said, I think everyone who's helped make the FSP what it is should be patting themselves on the back and feeling good about the project.

I can only see 100% good coming out of this "high level political activism."   I'd also say start getting prepared to be shocked because you ain't nothing yet. :) 

PS: Taken on it's face, the word Snowballing in this context means, to grow the fastest and from what I've heard, Keene has experienced the biggest number of new movers recently due to its local  CD.  It doesn't imply by any means that Keene has and is doing All the work for more Liberty and to draw that conclusion is to mistake it's meaning.  I would encourage everyone who's excited about the progress they are making to post it, etc. and that way you can let others and potential movers more aware of your activities and thus attract more people to your area.

PSS: Dale, Thanks for adding the word Media, It was there in my mind but I guess it didn't make it to my fingers (I'll go back and Edit).   And sorry for putting your quote out of context, I didn't think it was... because I thought it was obvious to everyone ! (but of course that's just my opinion! :) )

Title: Re: "This movement is Snowballing, More in Keene, than Anywhere."
Post by: George Donnelly on April 27, 2009, 03:07:48 pm
Dave, if they're not tooting their own horns about their liberty activism they're not maximizing their effectiveness. Pls pass on any info to me so I can toot their horns for them.
Title: Re: "This movement is Snowballing, More in Keene, than Anywhere."
Post by: Dave Mincin on April 27, 2009, 07:20:05 pm
Dave, if they're not tooting their own horns about their liberty activism they're not maximizing their effectiveness. Pls pass on any info to me so I can toot their horns for them.

That's a fair question George, so I will try and give it a truthful answer.

First 4 years ago, we, meaning me a a couple freestaters, and allies, got involved in Dover, with the folks who live in Dover leading the charge.  We passed out fliers, knocked on doors, and got petitions signed.  The end result was we helped get a spending cap, put in place.  This was before the big push from the NH Advantage.  We did it, and when I say we I mean the folks from Dover.  We were just helping our neighbors get it done.  And to my way of thinking the only way to stop the growth of government is to take the money away, so I see that as a real win for freedom.

Just recently Rochester passed a spending cap.  Again with the help of freedom folks, but low key without a bunch of yelling and shouting, just good neighbors.  Bet you didn't see anything in the press about that, but that is just the way we like it.  I just believe the folks in internet land should be aware of what is really going on, and how important it is.

And the Ron Paul campaign.  I was a bit involved, even had a title....Co-chair for Strafford countyl.  Folks worked there butts off, but we lost, but as I see it we won!  I can think of at least a dozen NH folks who were not involved in the freedom movement here, that now are.  Folks if something needs to be done will help if there schedule permits.  Some may not think that is big, but I do!

I'm not sure if many of the newer folks know how important our town meeting are.  In our most recent deliberative session here in Barrington, every spending increase was defeated.  Again we didn't do it, but we helped our neighbors get it done.  Heck, we even chopped 300k+ off the school budget.

I'm on our Budget Advisory Committee, and I know at least 4 folks who are on there town committees.  My guess it there many more that I am not aware of.  We are in positions were we can help stop the crazy spending, but we need more folks getting involved in their communities, including Keene.

What about the 4 state rep we now have in Concord.  True I lost my election, but I do believe that our effort helped get 2 freedom reps elected in our district that were not there before.

I'm not about telling others how to promote freedom, but I do sometimes get concerned when I see the stuff coming out of Keene, always saying these freestaters did this.  It gives the perception of outsiders trying to tell the locals what to do, and folks don't like that.  Do your thing for sure, but personally I just wish you would do it as concerned citizens of Keene, and not as freestaters.

When I took the pledge, I promised to move to NH, make it my home, and work to promote freedom.  I see the Free State Project as the Bus that got me to NH.  I'm thankful for the ride, but now NH is my home!  Seems to me working with my neighbors who share my views is the way to go.
Title: Re: "This movement is Snowballing, More in Keene, than Anywhere."
Post by: sj on April 27, 2009, 07:22:31 pm
I'm not about telling others how to promote freedom, but I do sometimes get concerned when I see the stuff coming out of Keene, always saying these freestaters did this.  It give the perception of outsiders trying to tell the locals what to do, and folks don't like that.  Do your thing for sure, but personally I just wish you would do it as concerned citizens of Keene, and not as freestaters.

When I took the pledge, I promised to move to NH, make it my home, and work to promote freedom.  I see the Free State Project as the Bus that got me to NH.  I'm thankful for the ride, but now NH is my home!  Seems to me working with my neighbors who share my views it the way to go.

This times 1,000,000!!!
Title: Re: "This movement is Snowballing, More in Keene, than Anywhere."
Post by: George Donnelly on April 27, 2009, 07:31:21 pm
Ok Dave but why don't you want any publicity for your work? I don't get that. How do you expect to get more like-minded folk to help you if you're tight-lipped about what you're doing?

If you want to run for office, by all means, but as for me I consider that immoral. Government is an initiation of force, it's the only way for it to do business, and you don't set people free by initiating force against them.

I understand where you're coming from. You should be able to understand where the outside-the-system types are coming from too, right?
Title: Re: "This movement is Snowballing, More in Keene, than Anywhere."
Post by: Dave Mincin on April 27, 2009, 07:48:25 pm
George you have a right to your thought.  From my perspective government is here to stay whether we like it or not.
Even a revolution would only bring another government.  We can either try to change it peacefully or not.

You asked for some of the things we are doing and I tried to give you an honest answer, I'm sure I could give
you more if I thought about it.

Personally I'm interested in results and not theory.  I wish we were perfect, and the world was too, but that is not
reality.

As I see it, given your thoughts, what are you going to do to promote freedom when you get to NH?

Your point to horn tooting is well taken.  Personally I just don't believe in horn tooting, but I do believe in the Folks.

Perhaps the best answer to that is to come to NH, and see what is really going on, then find your place.
Title: Re: "This movement is Snowballing, More in Keene, than Anywhere."
Post by: Antijingoist on April 27, 2009, 09:28:39 pm
Personally I'm interested in results and not theory.  I wish we were perfect, and the world was too, but that is not
reality.
Results in this case=people moving up.
Jesse doing the stuff Keeniacs do is proof that there are more keeniacs in the world that will wake up or become inspired by what keeniacs do.
You doing your stuff is proof that there are more of you in the world and that will wake up or become inspired by what you do. There are people you will never reach that someone from keene will reach because they planted a garden in the town square, refused to stop recording, drove an unregistered vehicle, etc.
And there are people that we won't reach because they like your results more. This is not theory. A friend of mine that was a Republican woke up to the truth after watching Jesse burn the flag. I was inspired to move up here after Ian got arrested, and Andrew went to jail with his CD.
Title: Re: "This movement is Snowballing, More in Keene, than Anywhere."
Post by: George Donnelly on April 27, 2009, 09:53:39 pm
Dave I was at the Liberty Forum (we met at the statehouse tour) and am moving my family up next month. :)

I understand your POV, however misguided I think it is. I just want you to understand those who think electoral politics and government are inherently immoral and evil. Are there questions I can answer for you that might help you understand the "outside-the-system-types" better?

Building a liberty movement is all about marketing don't you think? We're selling something here. As a real estate agent surely you recognize that? Can't sell much without a good bit of horn tooting. :) I do a lot of that on teh internets and have had some success with it so let me know if I can write about what you're doing.

See the end of this article for a partial list of my gameplan for liberty activism in NH:

http://georgedonnelly.com/opinion/liberty-lovers-need-guns-honey

You're interested in results. Me too. What are the results you want to see exactly? If it's more people moving up I can tell you the things that are motivating me to move my family up from south america:

- personal lobbying by dreepa and seth
- Will's walk for liberty
- the Keene activism

election gains and spending caps weren't doing it for me even before I realized I was a voluntaryist a few months ago. I'm not putting you down, just being straight with you.
Title: Re: "This movement is Snowballing, More in Keene, than Anywhere."
Post by: maxxoccupancy on April 27, 2009, 11:37:20 pm
I'm not about telling others how to promote freedom, but I do sometimes get concerned when I see the stuff coming out of Keene, always saying these freestaters did this.  It give the perception of outsiders trying to tell the locals what to do, and folks don't like that.  Do your thing for sure, but personally I just wish you would do it as concerned citizens of Keene, and not as freestaters.

When I took the pledge, I promised to move to NH, make it my home, and work to promote freedom.  I see the Free State Project as the Bus that got me to NH.  I'm thankful for the ride, but now NH is my home!  Seems to me working with my neighbors who share my views it the way to go.

This times 1,000,000!!!
+1
Title: Re: "This movement is Snowballing, More in Keene, than Anywhere."
Post by: maxxoccupancy on April 28, 2009, 12:13:30 am
Dave I was at the Liberty Forum (we met at the statehouse tour) and am moving my family up next month. :)

I understand your POV, however misguided I think it is. I just want you to understand those who think electoral politics and government are inherently immoral and evil. Are there questions I can answer for you that might help you understand the "outside-the-system-types" better?

Building a liberty movement is all about marketing don't you think? We're selling something here. As a real estate agent surely you recognize that? Can't sell much without a good bit of horn tooting. :) I do a lot of that on teh internets and have had some success with it so let me know if I can write about what you're doing....You're interested in results. Me too. What are the results you want to see exactly? If it's more people moving up I can tell you the things that are motivating me to move my family up from south america:

- personal lobbying by dreepa and seth
- Will's walk for liberty
- the Keene activism

election gains and spending caps weren't doing it for me even before I realized I was a voluntaryist a few months ago. I'm not putting you down, just being straight with you.

Dave and I don't always agree on the fora, but he's 100% right about this.  I've been following Dave Mincin's (and Ron in Deerfield, Kieth and Karl in Manchester, etc...) model of local political involvement.  Many activists are low key and don't make tons of noise about what we're doing.  When you get up here and come to our meetings, you'll hear folks in person talking about 100 different things that they've attempted, and dozens of little bits of progress all over the state.  We've made huge strides in over a dozen towns, killed bill in the State House, and even gotten a few measures passed making New Hamsphire just a little bit freer.  If we had another thousand activists doing this kind of low key political work, we'd be on our way to a truly free society.

What I, personally, have seen of Keene activism, is the very backlash I warned about back in 2002.  That is, if we're seen as coming in to take over and "force our way" on the locals, there will be a negative backlash.  These issues have been rehashed over and over and over again.  Think that this is a new topic? 

Take a look at this earlier thread:

http://forum.freestateproject.org/index.php?topic=4554.0

It's about as predictive as Nostradamus.  Those of us who've been part of the project this long can get a laugh out of this one.  Read the whole thread, if you can, including this prophetic statement by JasonM, who hasn't posted in four years, and still has a Menlo Park, California, address:

Quote
I'd really like to see a split between Keene and Bow.  I really hope our members don't just go to random cities all over NH since the project will become less powerfull without large concentrations.
Title: Re: "This movement is Snowballing, More in Keene, than Anywhere."
Post by: sj on April 28, 2009, 12:28:56 am
if we're seen as coming in to take over and "force our way" on the locals, there will be a negative backlash.

Yep.
Title: Re: "This movement is Snowballing, More in Keene, than Anywhere."
Post by: MK on April 28, 2009, 01:57:56 am
I think most would agree it's better to try and blend in to make change versus broadcasting loudly you are bunch of outsiders coming in to change the way things "are done round here."  An FSP secret oath?  "And once you cross the State Line of NH, you are never to speak of the Free State Project in public to anyone and never show or wear any signage that would indicate your group's affiliation, unless you're attending a private meeting or won't be seen in public."  It makes me think of what the Keene Bosses would be saying if they thought, Jessie's Gardening, Marijuana CD, Ian's Stand, Sam's Stand, etc. were Not at all related!   But I wonder about the possibility of being able to keep something like that secret.  Anyway, I like the term Liberty Activist.

I've been thinking about all the Different definitions, of what More Liberty in our Lifetimes really means from one person, to the next.  The Mission Statement says "The Maximum role of..." but it doesn't say what the "Minimum role" of Government should be (my favorite part).  Extreme Liberty Lovers/Activists, from all over, moving to NH, to chase and help pursue their Personal Def intion of what Limited Government means and for one minority group, it means No Government at all. (IMO, a noble goal and everyone is aware of the challenge, but you have to start somewhere).

And it appears the ones who share that genearl school of thought are settling in the greater Keene and Grafton areas, and would be known as Anarchists or I think the more popular term that most prefer is:  Voluntarists.  Basically people who do not believe in ever aggressing against their neighbors.  And the rest of the FSPers, generally speaking, are not and they are settling in other areas that fit them best.

And as more people move to particular areas, more progress will be made, based on the type of people, what they DO and what area they move too.  And if the Keene area Media Machine keeps reporting or "tooting it's own horn." and more like minded show up and start doing even more and different CD,  then I think it will continue to bring the biggest number of movers (based on % of Activists to City's Population) and I wonder how it all will evolve.
Title: Re: "This movement is Snowballing, More in Keene, than Anywhere."
Post by: George Donnelly on April 28, 2009, 08:50:15 am
Seems to me working with my neighbors who share my views it the way to go.

The Keeniacs are doing that too. There are NH natives among their number.

Max I read the old thread but I'm not sure how it relates to this one. It's early and I haven't had my tea yet, maybe I'm just missing it...
Title: Re: "This movement is Snowballing, More in Keene, than Anywhere."
Post by: FTL_Ian on April 28, 2009, 10:21:43 am
Whenever a thread is posted about Keene and the movement happening there, you can count on Max to show up and trash Keene and promote the Seacoast.  It's fine.  He's jealous of our success at recruiting movers, and is doing his best to compete, with his recent publishing of his 101 reasons to move to Seabrook.  Of course, we then published the fully updated 2009 edition of the 111+ Reasons to Move to Keene (http://move.freekeene.com), refocusing the list on the awesome activism happening regularly here.  It must be frustrating to compete with such a burgeoning movement: the amount of new movers and an effective blog/forum that tracks the variety of activism happening here.  (There is FAR more than CD going on as has been described in the earlier posts in this thread.)

Dale's summation is correct.  Keene activists have been moving in higher numbers, locals have been getting active with us, and this has resulted in more activism, which is resulting in more people planning moves to Keene.  Perhaps someday another part of NH will snowball more than Keene, but it's pretty clear this area holds that title.  I say keep up the competition for movers - that's healthy to have happening.  Or rather, keep trying to keep up with us in Keene!

Go Keeniacs!   8) 8) 8)
Title: Re: "This movement is Snowballing, More in Keene, than Anywhere."
Post by: dalebert on April 28, 2009, 10:26:24 am
I'm not about telling others how to promote freedom, but I do sometimes get concerned when I see the stuff coming out of Keene, always saying these freestaters did this.  It give the perception of outsiders trying to tell the locals what to do, and folks don't like that.  Do your thing for sure, but personally I just wish you would do it as concerned citizens of Keene, and not as freestaters.

When I took the pledge, I promised to move to NH, make it my home, and work to promote freedom.  I see the Free State Project as the Bus that got me to NH.  I'm thankful for the ride, but now NH is my home!  Seems to me working with my neighbors who share my views it the way to go.

This times 1,000,000!!!

I agree with you, Seth, but this particular criticism is getting tired. Keith & Stuph, same thing. We do what we can to clarify, but at some point it starts to feel futile. The FSP is a powerful brand and it's hard to shake. Also, as some of us are involved in media, like FTL, we are still involved with recruiting from outside (http://anarchyinyourhead.com/2008/11/26/the-golden-porcupine/) even though we're already here. I think we'd be giving up too much to stop recruiting just because of the difficulty of shaking the FSP brand and because some people will fail to understand that the FSP is just a bus.

You also need to understand that it's often the statists who don't like the FSP and want to keep this label attached to activists in an attempt to marginalize us. The statists can't argue their issues worth a crap and so they resort to ad hominem attacks and stereotyping in hopes of discrediting. It's a cowardly and childish tactic. Recently, they even resorted to trying to associate us with the Free Town Project nutjob who dwelled on cannibalism and bestiality when there is a wealth of information about peaceful activism on our LOCAL website which they (perhaps purposefully) ignored.

As you can see, I'm doing my best to explain to people that we are in fact locals and that many locals are getting involved with our liberty activism. I am working on the branding power of Free Keene as a LOCAL organization. Whenever I do activism, that's where I try to attach recognition.

Quote
Free Keene is not associated with the Free State Project though there are a number of free staters who are active within it, so some confusion is understandable. Though a number of free staters are active participants of Free Keene, it’s a local voluntary organization which encourages peaceful participation by anyone in Keene who loves liberty, and in fact many locals are doing just that.

The rest of the article (http://freekeene.com/2009/04/20/fine-young-cannibals/)
Title: Re: "This movement is Snowballing, More in Keene, than Anywhere."
Post by: dalebert on April 28, 2009, 10:32:01 am
I'd like to add that there was a recent controversy about Free Keene volunteers being rejected by the Community Kitchen. I have continued to volunteer there on my own as an individual. I've been encouraging others to follow my lead.

Someone suggested that we all make a point to be good neighbors, neighbors that our fellow locals will be glad to have as neighbors. I've been doing that already. I'd like for people to get to know us and like us BEFORE finding out about our activism which they may or may not agree with, or more likely will agree only to some extent. This is a lesson I learned about coming out as a gay man. When people already liked me, they were a lot less likely to change their opinion of me based on one factor of my personality. This will make it a lot harder for our violent statist opponents in their attempt to marginalize us.
Title: Re: "This movement is Snowballing, More in Keene, than Anywhere."
Post by: sj on April 28, 2009, 11:11:55 am
I'm not about telling others how to promote freedom, but I do sometimes get concerned when I see the stuff coming out of Keene, always saying these freestaters did this.  It give the perception of outsiders trying to tell the locals what to do, and folks don't like that.  Do your thing for sure, but personally I just wish you would do it as concerned citizens of Keene, and not as freestaters.

When I took the pledge, I promised to move to NH, make it my home, and work to promote freedom.  I see the Free State Project as the Bus that got me to NH.  I'm thankful for the ride, but now NH is my home!  Seems to me working with my neighbors who share my views it the way to go.

This times 1,000,000!!!

I agree with you, Seth, but this particular criticism is getting tired. Keith & Stuph, same thing. We do what we can to clarify, but at some point it starts to feel futile. The FSP is a powerful brand and it's hard to shake. Also, as some of us are involved in media, like FTL, we are still involved with recruiting from outside (http://anarchyinyourhead.com/2008/11/26/the-golden-porcupine/) even though we're already here. I think we'd be giving up too much to stop recruiting just because of the difficulty of shaking the FSP brand and because some people will fail to understand that the FSP is just a bus.

True, Dale.  Having Ian there who, along with Mark, is the FSP's top recruiter makes it more difficult just to be neighbors rather than being "free staters."  But steps could still be taken...such as refocusing the conversation to local activism when one is talking to the Keene Sentinel, rather than talking about the goals and ideas of the FSP (the article you link to at FreeKeene is a step towards addressing that).  Another step could be that when one volunteers at a local charity, one doesn't list "Free State Project" as the organization.  I saw that you have already addressed that as well.  I seem to also remember a lot of callers into TalkBack talking about the FSP and "what free staters believe."  Dale, I think you've set an excellent example of what needs to be done and more people should follow your lead.

One thing to note is that I only recently (a few months ago) found out that the Keene movement is also comprised of natives.  I didn't know that and I follow the NH freedom movement closer than 99.99% of people in NH.  As you know, that weakens your message. 

Just my 2 cents.  I don't mean to be critical.  Like Ian said, whatever you can say about Keene, people are moving there.
Title: Re: "This movement is Snowballing, More in Keene, than Anywhere."
Post by: FTL_Ian on April 28, 2009, 11:36:37 am
Seth, did I read you wrong?  How does having NH natives in the Keene liberty movement "weaken our message"?   ???
Title: Re: "This movement is Snowballing, More in Keene, than Anywhere."
Post by: Dreepa on April 28, 2009, 11:38:01 am
Seth, did I read you wrong?  How does having NH natives in the Keene liberty movement "weaken our message"?   ???
I think it strengthens the message doesn't it?
Title: Re: "This movement is Snowballing, More in Keene, than Anywhere."
Post by: sj on April 28, 2009, 11:55:39 am
Seth, did I read you wrong?  How does having NH natives in the Keene liberty movement "weaken our message"?   ???

Wow, I screwed that up.  Yeah, Ian I wasn't clear.

What I was trying to say was that the fact that the Keene freedom movement is viewed as nothing but a movement of "free staters" weakens the movement.  Because it's not just a movement of free staters.  There are lots of natives that free staters joined to help.  I was just saying that, even as a person who follows this stuff, I didn't even know there were natives involved until recently.  Does that make sense?
Title: Re: "This movement is Snowballing, More in Keene, than Anywhere."
Post by: maxxoccupancy on April 28, 2009, 12:40:25 pm
Whenever a thread is posted about Keene and the movement happening there, you can count on Max to show up and trash Keene and promote the Seacoast.  It's fine.  He's jealous of our success at recruiting movers, and is doing his best to compete, with his recent publishing of his 101 reasons to move to Seabrook.  Of course, we then published the fully updated 2009 edition of the 111+ Reasons to Move to Keene (http://move.freekeene.com), refocusing the list on the awesome activism happening regularly here.  It must be frustrating to compete with such a burgeoning movement: the amount of new movers and an effective blog/forum that tracks the variety of activism happening here.  (There is FAR more than CD going on as has been described in the earlier posts in this thread.)

There are far more activists on the seacoast than in the Keene area.  Portsmouth, for example, has been quietly gaining movers, and they have been supporting some of the local efforts by locals to improve things there.  You don't hear as much about the meetings or activism out here, but there is a lot going on.  Manchester has way more going on than any other town, by far, and is still seeing more new folks coming in each month.  That is something you see by going to Taproom Tuesday, an hour and a half from Keene, but only 40 minutes from the seacoast.  The seacoast is also seeing far more new movers, and far more has been accomplished out here.  Most importantly, we're getting new proliberty Reps elected to Concord, and several F and CT Legislators are now in real danger of losing their seats.

Quote
Dale's summation is correct.  Keene activists have been moving in higher numbers, locals have been getting active with us, and this has resulted in more activism, which is resulting in more people planning moves to Keene.  Perhaps someday another part of NH will snowball more than Keene, but it's pretty clear this area holds that title.  I say keep up the competition for movers - that's healthy to have happening.  Or rather, keep trying to keep up with us in Keene!

Go Keeniacs!   8) 8) 8)

Dale IS correct about new folks moving in, though I've never encountered similar resistance to the fsp in Seabrook.  I mentioned last night at the Seabrook Conservation Commission meeting that I move here as part of the fsp.  Most Seabrook folk like the idea of young folks getting into local issues, and I've never seen or heard a negative remark about the fsp from anyone here.  They type of activism going on elsewhere is just very different from Keene activism.  Some of us who are doing local stuff don't like the constant, "Keene is the center of everything" mantra.  No doubt that Grafton has us all beaten for per ca pita activism.

Also, when I said that Keene sucked, I was merely referring to the town's lower than average barometric pressure. :p
Title: Re: "This movement is Snowballing, More in Keene, than Anywhere."
Post by: FTL_Ian on April 28, 2009, 01:42:44 pm
Seth, did I read you wrong?  How does having NH natives in the Keene liberty movement "weaken our message"?   ???

Wow, I screwed that up.  Yeah, Ian I wasn't clear.

What I was trying to say was that the fact that the Keene freedom movement is viewed as nothing but a movement of "free staters" weakens the movement.  Because it's not just a movement of free staters.  There are lots of natives that free staters joined to help.  I was just saying that, even as a person who follows this stuff, I didn't even know there were natives involved until recently.  Does that make sense?

Understandable, as you don't live here.  A quick look at the Free Keene bloggers page should make it clear to anyone investigating, and this year's municipal elections in Keene will be featuring NH natives who support liberty, so people less-in-touch will be more likely to come across this information at that time.
Title: Re: "This movement is Snowballing, More in Keene, than Anywhere."
Post by: sj on April 28, 2009, 10:36:24 pm
Seth, did I read you wrong?  How does having NH natives in the Keene liberty movement "weaken our message"?   ???

Wow, I screwed that up.  Yeah, Ian I wasn't clear.

What I was trying to say was that the fact that the Keene freedom movement is viewed as nothing but a movement of "free staters" weakens the movement.  Because it's not just a movement of free staters.  There are lots of natives that free staters joined to help.  I was just saying that, even as a person who follows this stuff, I didn't even know there were natives involved until recently.  Does that make sense?

Understandable, as you don't live here.  A quick look at the Free Keene bloggers page should make it clear to anyone investigating, and this year's municipal elections in Keene will be featuring NH natives who support liberty, so people less-in-touch will be more likely to come across this information at that time.

*Looks at FreeKeene Bloggers Page (http://freekeene.com/bloggers/)*

Perhaps I don't follow as closely as I think I do.
Title: Re: "This movement is Snowballing, More in Keene, than Anywhere."
Post by: FTL_Ian on April 28, 2009, 10:40:48 pm
 ;)

I don't know what else we can do to promote it besides what we are currently doing...
Title: Re: "This movement is Snowballing, More in Keene, than Anywhere."
Post by: MK on April 29, 2009, 10:43:08 am
Markus...Don't get me wrong.  I haven't been to Keene since last summer and that was to a party and Dawn and Bill's, so I really don't have a handle on what is going on
in Keene.  I think it is great folks are moving there, I just take issue with those who say it is the center of the freedom movement in NH.  You see I know a lot of folks, and
I know they are working there butts off all over NH promoting freedom.  They are the folks who don't look for fame or glory,show up in the paper, or on the videos, but when we need help, they are the first to
raise there hand in support.  I don't think the internet folks even realize what they are doing or how important they are to our movement.

Sometimes I get a little muffed, when I perceive there efforts are not being recognized.  For my thought, they are the folks who deserve the credit, and will be the reason
we save freedom.

So anyway, you know what they say about opinions, :)



I understand Dave, thanks.  I guess one thing, that's been well known, generally speaking, is that Keene, until recently, has not shown interest in trying to change things via Official Positions of Power.

I know I  mentioned at least a couple of times that I was in no way intending to say those who got here before the others, have done/are doing stuff are not important and appreciated,  of course, they very much are.
I wanted to promote one area first and second, encourage others to promote their own areas, so to take the Snowball comment in that way is to not interpret it as I intended.

I think "Hotbed" is another great word that would describe Keene as well, but Snowball was the perfect word for this case, as from what I've seen/heard, Keene is attracting More New Movers, Faster, (snowballing) than any other city in NH, if you measure it by % of new movers compared to the total population.  If you know otherwise, please let me know!

So I just wanted to Shout this from the Top of this movement's biggest Hill to create more momentum. 

It always good to hear what you guys are working on up in the Dover area and in my analysis, you guys still have the best pizza in NH! (La Festa Wood Fired Pizza, located in Beautiful Downtown Dover).  :)

 
Title: Re: "This movement is Snowballing, More in Keene, than Anywhere."
Post by: dalebert on April 30, 2009, 08:22:25 am
I think "Hotbed" is another great word that would describe Keene as well, but Snowball was the perfect word for this case, as from what I've seen/heard, Keene is attracting More New Movers, Faster, (snowballing) than any other city in NH, if you measure it by % of new movers compared to the total population.  If you know otherwise, please let me know!

That may be true since we've had quite an influx very recently, but I'm not tracking recruitment so I can't verify. I'm really only sharply aware of what's going on locally. I don't even get out to Manch nearly as often as I used to. I would just clarify that my own meaning for it was the sudden increase in movers recently vs. the past up to that point, along with the sense that the momentum is continuing to build upon itself ("snowballing"). Each time some event happens, it seems to inspire yet more people to move here and to move sooner than originally planned. As more people get involved, the videos start showing a lot more activists than in earlier vids and I think people are starting to get a sense that they will be a part of something really big and have lots of people to support them in their efforts, and that emboldens people who might otherwise have felt somewhat timid in dealing with tyrannical statists.
Title: Re: "This movement is Snowballing, More in Keene, than Anywhere."
Post by: FTL_Ian on April 30, 2009, 10:35:43 am
Keene's next big activist event:  about 24 hours away.

How many will turn out for this one?
Title: Re: "This movement is Snowballing, More in Keene, than Anywhere."
Post by: Russell Kanning on April 30, 2009, 12:16:10 pm
too many .... for the keene cops to be happy about
Title: Re: "This movement is Snowballing, More in Keene, than Anywhere."
Post by: FTL_Ian on April 30, 2009, 01:14:08 pm
too many .... for the keene cops to be happy about

According to Sam, at one point they apparently had a school bus ready for us and were planning to take us all to Westmoreland and house us in the gym.
Title: Re: "This movement is Snowballing, More in Keene, than Anywhere."
Post by: Porcupine The Godful Heathen on April 30, 2009, 04:28:13 pm
too many .... for the keene cops to be happy about

According to Sam, at one point they apparently had a school bus ready for us and were planning to take us all to Westmoreland and house us in the gym.

At least we'll get to work out while incarcerated.
Title: Re: "This movement is Snowballing, More in Keene, than Anywhere."
Post by: Russell Kanning on May 01, 2009, 12:49:30 pm
too many .... for the keene cops to be happy about

According to Sam, at one point they apparently had a school bus ready for us and were planning to take us all to Westmoreland and house us in the gym.
there isn't any room in the gym ... it is already full of sentenced guys who follow the rules.
a school bus would be more comfortable than the packed van
Title: Re: "This movement is Snowballing, More in Keene, than Anywhere."
Post by: MK on May 01, 2009, 09:22:18 pm
too many .... for the keene cops to be happy about

According to Sam, at one point they apparently had a school bus ready for us and were planning to take us all to Westmoreland and house us in the gym.
there isn't any room in the gym ... it is already full of sentenced guys who follow the rules.
a school bus would be more comfortable than the packed van

I guess they could have welded the doors shut and wrapped the bus in Barbed Wire (throw in a camper's toilet, and a thin blanket for each) if they were in a pinch for space.
Title: Re: "This movement is Snowballing, More in Keene, than Anywhere."
Post by: TEBON on May 05, 2009, 08:58:20 am
is it just me or does the "positive attitude" towards the naysayers sound equally if not more badass than going off on someone?

it's like killing with kindness. . .

For people to get the message, do they have to hear or see it?  If it exists and no one knows about it, does it do anything?


As for PUSHING MY WAYS on others. . . my ways are doing my thing and not harming or stealing from others.  If that turns off some people then so be it. . .I'm not going to bend over backwards to please others if they want to keep the chains securely on my wrists.

The way it looks from the outside, the Seacoasters are happy enough with getting really cute fuzzy things to make their chains more comfortable.  Keeniacs are taking the steps to remove their chains.  I want to remove my chains. 
Title: Re: "This movement is Snowballing, More in Keene, than Anywhere."
Post by: Dave Mincin on May 05, 2009, 09:42:36 am
"The way it looks from the outside, the Seacoasters are happy enough with getting really cute fuzzy things to make their chains more comfortable."

First, I would agree with what you said on another post about much of what Max says has no basis in fact, but I also believe your statement above has no
basis in fact.  Fact is Max is fairly new to the area, and really doesn't know many folks in the region.  Seabrook is in the extreme southeastern corner of the
Seacoast Region, and most of us seldom even visit there.  To assume that Max speaks for us, is not fair, or accurate.

What the folks in Keene are doing in my opinion is what they believe is best for them, and I'm fine with that.  Personally I wish them well in all of there
efforts.  I believe the vast majority of the folks in the Seacoast Region feel the same way. :)
Title: Re: "This movement is Snowballing, More in Keene, than Anywhere."
Post by: dalebert on May 05, 2009, 11:24:50 am
First, I would agree with what you said on another post about much of what Max says has no basis in fact, but I also believe your statement above has no
basis in fact.  Fact is Max is fairly new to the area, and really doesn't know many folks in the region.  Seabrook is in the extreme southeastern corner of the
Seacoast Region, and most of us seldom even visit there.  To assume that Max speaks for us, is not fair, or accurate.

QFT. Anton, I would also suggest that you keep your constructive criticism focused and not collectivize the seacoasters. My experience over there was pretty positive.
Title: Re: "This movement is Snowballing, More in Keene, than Anywhere."
Post by: TEBON on May 05, 2009, 12:09:30 pm
suggestion noted and of course I wasn't trying to lambaste all seacoasters, merely what a few people have already decided are the type of activism that is going to be wanted in the Seacoast. 

That = who I was talking about. . . I don't have a problem with people who do their activism in whatever way they decide.  I really do have a problem when people state that the area is not comfortable with civil disobedience.  The "area" does not represent me, and my opinions.  Just as my opinion doesn't represent anyone else's.  Frankly, the only thing I'm calling out is 101 list that is supposed to drive people to Seabrook yet is full of opinions.

I'm not involved in the political goings on in the Seacoast, because I'm not interested in politics.  If they ask me to help hold a sign or tell people about a certain candidate. . . sure I'd help!  I was only asked once to help with a sign wave for Mr. Kelley and I helped.

I should have refrained from saying Seacoasters, what I should have said was "some" seacoasters.  My apologies to anyone who took offense, especially those who are very involved in their thing.

I would be happy to help with any 101 lists and ask around to see what others could come up with for 101 TRUE reasons to move to the Seacoast. . . there are so many things that I love about the seacoast.  I understood Max has only been here a couple of years, and had his opinions based on that.  I was hoping to point out that not everything is always as it seems.
Title: Re: "This movement is Snowballing, More in Keene, than Anywhere."
Post by: Dreepa on May 05, 2009, 02:53:42 pm
I should have refrained from saying Seacoasters, what I should have said was "some" seacoasters. 

and by some you mean one. :P
Title: Re: "This movement is Snowballing, More in Keene, than Anywhere."
Post by: maxxoccupancy on May 06, 2009, 04:10:32 am
Several seacoasters are saying this at meetups. A few have even voiced similar opinions on this forum. The fact that three major areas are now seeing increased migration (Merrimack Valley, Cheshire County, and the seacoast region) is fantastic.  The fact that each region (and even each town) is attracting a completely different kind of activist.

Anton, what I actually said was high profile CD probably wouldn't go over very well on the coast.  You can reread my original post.  There are many different types of activism, and different type of civil disobedience.  The response you get from locals has a lot to do with what you are doing when you get arrested.  I like to do volunteer work or litter pick up when I'm doing CD.  If the cops arrest you while you're being a boyscout, they look really bad, and fence sitters get ticked off at them.  If you were to break a different law--say, carrying a nuclear bomb naked around with you at the base of a hydroelectric dam while singing "O' Canada"--there will probably be less sympathy for you or your cause.  If you are arrested for jaywalking while running across the street to save a cubscout and his puppy from an oncoming truck, the arresting cop is going to be about as popular as a dead skunk at the Perfume Smelling National Championship.  The difference, of course, is what the cops are arresting you for.  Different types of CD have a different effects on public opinion.

If the target law is marijuana, one might look for medical marijuana patients who are being denied the use of something that helps keep down life saving medication.  If you supply sick and dying AIDS patients with small amounts of bud, the cops look "dubby-ous" putting you in the back of a police car--potentially leading to Grandma's untimely death.

Each town is home to many different kinds of activism.  Each affects public opinion and the political process in a different way.  I am not in an "attack mindset." I am merely stating facts, opinions, perceptions, and statistics that I believe are useful to deciding which efforts are likely to be most helpful.  If others want to make public attacks, they're voicing their own views.
Title: Re: "This movement is Snowballing, More in Keene, than Anywhere."
Post by: Dreepa on May 06, 2009, 06:55:52 am
Each town is home to many different kinds of activism. 

Right so let people move to Keene in peace.
Title: Re: "This movement is Snowballing, More in Keene, than Anywhere."
Post by: dalebert on May 06, 2009, 07:07:38 am
and by some you mean one. :P

Well uh, I wasn't go there but...  ;D ;)
Title: Re: "This movement is Snowballing, More in Keene, than Anywhere."
Post by: TEBON on May 09, 2009, 04:57:07 am
I should have refrained from saying Seacoasters, what I should have said was "some" seacoasters. 

and by some you mean one. :P

pretty much. 
Title: Re: "This movement is Snowballing, More in Keene, than Anywhere."
Post by: maxxoccupancy on May 17, 2009, 07:16:43 pm
Each town is home to many different kinds of activism. 

Right so let people move to Keene in peace.

People can go wherever they want.  I've been asked by several new folks--online, in person, by phone, email--what are the pros and cons of different areas, or what town I would recommend.  For folks mentioning night life, great downtown areas, sports, and constant things to do, I've mentioned Manchester and Portsmouth--or adjacent towns.  For those who need to find work right away, the Merrimack Valley is pretty good, but the seacoast is best.  For those who have an unusual degree or field, the seacoast offers access to Boston-Portland marketplace for jobs.  Some folks want a wide variety of natural foods stores, while others just want somewhere cheap with broadband.  Some folks like local activism, while others spend their time at the State House.  Still others are looking for swing voting districts so that they can have the greatest influence on state races.  For others, it's media, recruiting, protests, open carry, making youtube vids, etc...  Some want to debate, grab attention, win arguments, experiment with new forms of activism, start businesses, and a hundred other types of activities.

All of those issues will affect each person's own "which town" decision;  but read the OP, and read the title.  Read what's stated on the first page.  We have over 700 movers and hundreds of superactivists.  We have a couple thousand locals who we're working with who are amazing, and we have dozens of local groups all over the state working on a hundred different types of efforts, and there's no way that anyone could possibly keep up with it all.  I've repeated what locals, themselves, have said about various towns, as much as my own impressions.  I don't "attack" other people, nor do I make things up.  I give information, as well as statistical comparisons of various towns.  The info I've gotten from long time locals has helped immensely, and I've found that the info they've given has been more accurate than anyone else's stats.
Title: Re: "This movement is Snowballing, More in Keene, than Anywhere."
Post by: TEBON on May 20, 2009, 04:38:40 am
INHO, if you want freedom it's not going to be the Seacoast that gets it first.  I'm moving away from the area because there's not a lot happening here in Seabrook. 

I suggest the same to others who are looking for real freedom.  I suggest Keene or Grafton.   Seabrook has its fair share of "Busy Body" mentality that I witnessed YET AGAIN firsthand yesterday.  I am convinced the overwhelming majority of people in Seabrook are truly statists.
Title: Re: "This movement is Snowballing, More in Keene, than Anywhere."
Post by: freedomroad on May 20, 2009, 06:01:55 am
I suggest the same to others who are looking for real freedom.  I suggest Keene or Grafton. 

What does real freedom mean to you?  Keene has just about the highest taxes and regulations of anywhere in NH; whereas, Grafton has near the lowest.
Title: Re: "This movement is Snowballing, More in Keene, than Anywhere."
Post by: TEBON on May 27, 2009, 04:30:53 am
taxes can be fixed by not paying them. 
Title: Re: "This movement is Snowballing, More in Keene, than Anywhere."
Post by: Dreepa on May 27, 2009, 07:16:28 am
taxes can be fixed by not paying them. 
and then the house will be taken away.
Title: Re: "This movement is Snowballing, More in Keene, than Anywhere."
Post by: FTL_Ian on May 27, 2009, 07:32:23 am
taxes can be fixed by not paying them. 
and then the house will be taken away.

Not if a bunch of people stop paying.
Title: Re: "This movement is Snowballing, More in Keene, than Anywhere."
Post by: Dreepa on May 27, 2009, 12:30:12 pm
taxes can be fixed by not paying them. 
and then the house will be taken away.

Not if a bunch of people stop paying.

so you need to wait for a bunch of people who have to buy the houses.
Then you need a critical mass of people in the same town to all stop paying at the same time.

How many is 'a bunch'?  10, 20 , 30?  I don't think that many towns would have a problem taking 30 houses.

This seems more long term planning.
Title: Re: "This movement is Snowballing, More in Keene, than Anywhere."
Post by: TANSTAAFL76 on May 27, 2009, 12:49:54 pm

taxes can be fixed by not paying them. 

And how does one go about exercising freedom from jail?

Title: Re: "This movement is Snowballing, More in Keene, than Anywhere."
Post by: George Donnelly on May 27, 2009, 12:53:51 pm
probably need less people to make a difference with a tax protest than you do to win enough elections to make a difference. ;)
Title: Re: "This movement is Snowballing, More in Keene, than Anywhere."
Post by: FTL_Ian on May 27, 2009, 03:12:47 pm
They may have no problem taking them on paper, but when they have to throw families from their homes in front of dozens of activists with video cameras, they may think twice.
Title: Re: "This movement is Snowballing, More in Keene, than Anywhere."
Post by: Russell Kanning on May 27, 2009, 03:16:58 pm
And how does one go about exercising freedom from jail?
you can find that in a few history books and autobiographies :)
Title: Re: "This movement is Snowballing, More in Keene, than Anywhere."
Post by: Dreepa on May 27, 2009, 03:35:02 pm
probably need less people to make a difference with a tax protest than you do to win enough elections to make a difference. ;)
are  you sure on that?

I have seen votes lose by 1.
I have seen some income tax protesters (the Browns)  and look where they are.
Title: Re: "This movement is Snowballing, More in Keene, than Anywhere."
Post by: FTL_Ian on May 27, 2009, 03:41:28 pm
Note he said enough elections to make a difference.  Meaning a few dozen noncooperatives could affect change faster than as many people working in politics.  The risks are higher, so naturally are the rewards.
Title: Re: "This movement is Snowballing, More in Keene, than Anywhere."
Post by: TANSTAAFL76 on May 27, 2009, 03:51:08 pm

I'm not seeing a lot of rewards as a result of not paying federal tax if you wind up in prison for it.
Title: Re: "This movement is Snowballing, More in Keene, than Anywhere."
Post by: TEBON on May 27, 2009, 03:54:51 pm
you can keep paying if you want. . . but eventually when you're the only one left and you're paying for all of us in prison won't you be a little mad?
Title: Re: "This movement is Snowballing, More in Keene, than Anywhere."
Post by: TANSTAAFL76 on May 27, 2009, 05:14:40 pm

Far less mad than I would be if I were rotting in jail
Title: Re: "This movement is Snowballing, More in Keene, than Anywhere."
Post by: Russell Kanning on May 27, 2009, 05:40:54 pm
i guess it is the other way around for me
if i pay taxes I am mostly a slave
if i am in jail i am mostly free

for others that would not be true
Title: Re: "This movement is Snowballing, More in Keene, than Anywhere."
Post by: TANSTAAFL76 on May 27, 2009, 06:06:04 pm

If you can be "mostly free" when rotting in a cage in then you must have a very unique definition of freedom.


Title: Re: "This movement is Snowballing, More in Keene, than Anywhere."
Post by: Russell Kanning on May 27, 2009, 07:36:34 pm
maybe

if your mind is free and you are not a slave to evil men ... it feels very free

i felt identically to thoreau, even though he only spent one day

since we are fighting an enemy that likes to jail people ... and many of us do not use force against them ... many of us will be jailed in the process
Title: Re: "This movement is Snowballing, More in Keene, than Anywhere."
Post by: Dreepa on May 27, 2009, 07:37:41 pm
i guess it is the other way around for me
if i pay taxes I am mostly a slave
if i am in jail i am mostly free

for others that would not be true
but you did pay your property tax.
Title: Re: "This movement is Snowballing, More in Keene, than Anywhere."
Post by: Dave Mincin on May 27, 2009, 09:59:36 pm
maybe

if your mind is free and you are not a slave to evil men ... it feels very free

i felt identically to thoreau, even though he only spent one day

since we are fighting an enemy that likes to jail people ... and many of us do not use force against them ... many of us will be jailed in the process

Yep, Thoreau spent one day in jail, and his buddy Emerson, paid his fine and bailed him out.  Granted his essay was a great piece, but really, what
did he do to back up his belief's? Live on Waldon Pond. :)
Title: Re: "This movement is Snowballing, More in Keene, than Anywhere."
Post by: maxxoccupancy on May 27, 2009, 10:57:55 pm
I don't think it unreasonable to fight government the way Dave Mincin, Karl Beisel, Dennis Goddard, Cal Pratt, etc, are: one bill at a time, one warrant article at a time, one bad rep at a time.  One who has 40% of his earning taken is 40% enslaved.  One who has 10% of his earnings taken is 90% free.

Minarchy is not a system of government, but an approach to getting to the maximum of freedom possible in any political climate.  Many liberty activists look at the environmental movement as a tale of two  groups.  One group protests, makes noise, and gets themselves arrested.  The other has worked tirelessly through our political process to defend the rights of furry animals everywhere.  The political activists are just as tenacious as the protesters, but the former have been so effective that our property rights have been washed down the drain and recycled.
Title: Re: "This movement is Snowballing, More in Keene, than Anywhere."
Post by: Antijingoist on May 27, 2009, 11:18:20 pm

If you can be "mostly free" when rotting in a cage in then you must have a very unique definition of freedom.


your mind is free. You are no longer bound by fear.
Title: Re: "This movement is Snowballing, More in Keene, than Anywhere."
Post by: TEBON on May 28, 2009, 04:27:29 am
maybe

if your mind is free and you are not a slave to evil men ... it feels very free

i felt identically to thoreau, even though he only spent one day

since we are fighting an enemy that likes to jail people ... and many of us do not use force against them ... many of us will be jailed in the process

Yep, Thoreau spent one day in jail, and his buddy Emerson, paid his fine and bailed him out.  Granted his essay was a great piece, but really, what
did he do to back up his belief's? Live on Waldon Pond. :)


I thought "Civil Disobedience" was written after "Life in the Woods"

"Law never made man a whit more just"

I used to be a minarchist.  I just don't want to steal from my neighbors.  I found that having a government of any kind does just that.  Even a limited government, if I decided not to participate, the "Libertarian" goon squads will still come to my door, and will still try and rape me of my freedom.
Title: Re: "This movement is Snowballing, More in Keene, than Anywhere."
Post by: TANSTAAFL76 on May 28, 2009, 11:47:40 am

your mind is free. You are no longer bound by fear.

I don't fear paying taxes, I just despise it.  But not as much as I despise rotting in a jail cell.  My mind is free when my body is free to do what my mind tells it to.  In jail that's not possible.


Title: Re: "This movement is Snowballing, More in Keene, than Anywhere."
Post by: time4liberty on May 28, 2009, 04:01:01 pm
maybe

if your mind is free and you are not a slave to evil men ... it feels very free

i felt identically to thoreau, even though he only spent one day

since we are fighting an enemy that likes to jail people ... and many of us do not use force against them ... many of us will be jailed in the process

I'm not willing to go to jail at this time, but I recognize that I benefit greatly from your willingness to do so. I consider it a highly effective but also highly personally sacrificial form of activism. Although I would never criticize someone for choosing to be active in less risky ways, I consider many of the people who are willing to do so heroic.
Title: Re: "This movement is Snowballing, More in Keene, than Anywhere."
Post by: Keyser Soce on May 28, 2009, 06:33:16 pm

I'm not seeing a lot of rewards as a result of not paying federal tax if you wind up in prison for it.

Those who file federal income tax returns are more likely to be jailed than those who "are required to" and don't. Statistically.
Title: Re: "This movement is Snowballing, More in Keene, than Anywhere."
Post by: Keyser Soce on May 28, 2009, 06:41:56 pm

If you can be "mostly free" when rotting in a cage in then you must have a very unique definition of freedom


What's the difference between someone forcing you to work for them for six months for free and you working where you want for six months after which they take all the fruits of your labor? None. Either way you are a slave. Working for the government half your life is a "unique" definition of freedom. Serfs in the middle ages lost less of their value to the overlords than you do.

Title: Re: "This movement is Snowballing, More in Keene, than Anywhere."
Post by: Russell Kanning on May 28, 2009, 07:31:52 pm
i guess it is the other way around for me
if i pay taxes I am mostly a slave
if i am in jail i am mostly free

for others that would not be true
but you did pay your property tax.
actually i have not "owned" any property in nh according to the governments standards
if i buy some real estate sometime ... i will probably pay property taxes to the thugs so they don't kick me off of it ... they also are not doing quite as much damage hiring cops and indoctrinating children in schools as the US government does outright bombing people.
as the government gets worse ... then i push back more
the feds want half our incomes ... that i beyond my breaking point
Title: Re: "This movement is Snowballing, More in Keene, than Anywhere."
Post by: Russell Kanning on May 28, 2009, 07:36:13 pm
I'm not willing to go to jail at this time, but I recognize that I benefit greatly from your willingness to do so. I consider it a highly effective but also highly personally sacrificial form of activism. Although I would never criticize someone for choosing to be active in less risky ways, I consider many of the people who are willing to do so heroic.
thank you
there are many guys who have moved to nh because of the fsp and/or because of our activism, who are willing to step up the nonviolent revolution by putting their physical freedom at risk on a small scale. it is amazing how much can be accomplished when a few people stand up to the thugs.
Title: Re: "This movement is Snowballing, More in Keene, than Anywhere."
Post by: Russell Kanning on May 28, 2009, 07:43:12 pm
Yep, Thoreau spent one day in jail, and his buddy Emerson, paid his fine and bailed him out.  Granted his essay was a great piece, but really, what
did he do to back up his belief's? Live on Waldon Pond. :)
exactly
do you think he would have caved if his friend would not have paid? I think he would have stayed.
Since he is a good writer ... his message got out. Some of us have to sit in there longer to get out the message of how bad the state is. But even one night in jail altered Thoreau's view of others. It could happen to you too. Thoreau also took the first step of not funding the bad actions of the government.

Thoreau lived simply and realized those with possessions would have trouble standing up to the thugs. Tolstoy only gave away some of his wealth to follow his beliefs, but he too was a great writer, so he made up for it.
The reason some of us are emulating Gandhi and MLK is because they were doers.

Right now Sam is doing the work and Andrew will join him.

wow that was a long post ... since i basically agreed with you :)
Title: Re: "This movement is Snowballing, More in Keene, than Anywhere."
Post by: maxxoccupancy on May 28, 2009, 09:10:10 pm
OP Markus was talking about the "snowballing" going on in Keene.  Ie, that the new recruits are recruiting others, as well, and that this kind of exponential growth is occurring more there than anyone else.

Some of us seacoasters stated some points of disagreement, and this issue has been, IMO, pretty well covered.  I simply believe that more political activism is occurring in Manchester, Grafton, Barrington, Deerfield, Seabrook, Portsmouth, Dover, and other towns.  I believe that the issue has been pretty well resolved in my mind: that, as some Keene locals said, Keene may be a great town for non-political activists who want to fight the system in a high profile manner.  If you guys want to start another thread, have at it.

"This movement is Snowballing, More in Keene, than anywhere."
  Dale (anarchyinyourhead.com)

Dale made this comment on Free Keene.com's Forum website and I couldn't agree more.  I think it's due in large part because the town of Keene is so small and the number of Activiists are so busy and large, compared to other areas in New Hampshire...and so the participants and the mission of more Freedom are much more visable. 

Please don't misunderstand that there are not good people doing great things in other parts of the state because there are.  But what makes Keene's Activists so different is the majority choose to take on the system Peacefully from the "Outside" first ("breaking, challenging Tyrant law), and then battle it from the "Inside" (peacefully fighting the "Justice" system, from jail sometimes, etc.).

This peaceful Initiation/Attitude of wanting More Liberty Now, coupled with the fact that it's also being covered by the Liberty Media (Headquarted in Keene), is like a Tornado faning a Wildfire. 

Are those in Keene more Impatient, for more Liberty, than anyone else?  I don't know.  But what I do know is, if You are Excited and Impatient for more Liberty, then I'd have to recommend you check out this NH postcard "town" of Keene, because as the man said....

"This Movement is Snowballing, More in Keene, than Anywhere."   







Title: Re: "This movement is Snowballing, More in Keene, than Anywhere."
Post by: MK on May 29, 2009, 07:04:10 pm
Maxxoccupancy wrote:

Some of us seacoasters stated some points of disagreement, and this issue has been, IMO, pretty well covered.  I simply believe that more political activism is occurring in Manchester, Grafton, Barrington, Deerfield, Seabrook, Portsmouth, Dover, and other towns.
============

Max,  are you compiling all those cities together to compare to Keene?   I think silent activism is tops, people working behind the scenes to achieve more liberty.  But if you really want to speed things up, it helps a ton to get the Press to write about what you're doing.  Make people aware of who you are, what you're doing and thus make your stands public and consequenlty attract more people.

The Keene area has small numbers compared to Manchester and bigger areas, but no city has had more press coverage than the Keene area activists.  And with Sam being on Fox News' Freedom Watch and now the Boston Globe story (featured in the Metro section), I think any reasonable person :) would have to agree:

"This movement is Snowballing, More in Keene, than Anywhere."    >:D


Title: Re: "This movement is Snowballing, More in Keene, than Anywhere."
Post by: maxxoccupancy on May 29, 2009, 07:53:57 pm
political activism.  Many local Keene activists have held the town out as a great potential hotspot for nonpolitical activists who want to fight the system in a high profile manner.  I don't dispute that idea, and there are certainly some pros to living in Cheshire County.  Nevertheless, there are more political achievements to be found by activists in other areas.

What has grated against many of us are repeated statements that, "everything is happening in Keene," and so forth.  From a political standpoint, there are at least a dozen towns where activists have done more.  Towns with two freestaters have gotten more done locally.  When Keene activists have been asked how many political achievements they have to show, there are none.
Title: Re: "This movement is Snowballing, More in Keene, than Anywhere."
Post by: Russell Kanning on May 29, 2009, 11:36:22 pm
i hope to never have a political achievement
Title: Re: "This movement is Snowballing, More in Keene, than Anywhere."
Post by: MK on May 29, 2009, 11:51:32 pm
Max, The Free Keene Fest was recently held, many people, with all types of groups who  set up tables to educate the public about all sorts of things people can do to protect themselves from Government and of course there were the "illegal things" as well (gambling, food for sale, etc.) or politely practicing civil disobedience.  Political Activism?  I think the people there prefer Liberty Activism. 

I think to take the headline for this thread to mean "it's all happening in Keene, period" is a mistake.  Everyone who knows anything about what's going on knows there are many people all over NH doing great things.  Exactly, it means Keene is the fastest growing center of attention at the moment (it does not mean it's the only game).

I think everyone benefits when the Free State Project makes news as it exposes the project to so many new people, especially when it's in a Newspaper that's not located in NH, and extra especially good when it's the biggest metropolitan area in the neighborhood, finally icing on top the cake when it's in the city that was the birthplace for American Liberty;  Boston, Massachusetts.  Everything happens for a reason and it was the Keene area Liberty Activists who initiated and consequently made this story happen now. 

Big Story in Major Newspaper.  Big time PR for The Free State Project and Free Keene.  If you think PR is a good thing Max, then I look forward to you knockin' some down for the good of the project!  :)




Title: Re: "This movement is Snowballing, More in Keene, than Anywhere."
Post by: maxxoccupancy on May 30, 2009, 02:37:25 am
The point being that some of the Keene folks earlier in this thread were stating that everything was happening in Keene.  There's a lot going on elsewhere in the state.  It's just more low key.
Title: Re: "This movement is Snowballing, More in Keene, than Anywhere."
Post by: FTL_Ian on May 30, 2009, 11:15:02 am
The point being that some of the Keene folks earlier in this thread were stating that everything was happening in Keene.  There's a lot going on elsewhere in the state.  It's just more low key.

Please quote whomever claimed "everything" was going on in Keene.  I'll wait.

Oh, were you just putting words in Keeniac's mouths?  Don't you have something better to do?
Title: Re: "This movement is Snowballing, More in Keene, than Anywhere."
Post by: Dave Mincin on May 30, 2009, 02:12:41 pm


Please quote whomever claimed "everything" was going on in Keene.  I'll wait.

Oh, were you just putting words in Keeniac's mouths?  Don't you have something better to do?
[/quote]

I believe I brought the issue up a few pages back, and the issue was resolved to every ones
satisfaction.

Seemed it was more a matter of misunderstanding. :)
Title: Re: "This movement is Snowballing, More in Keene, than Anywhere."
Post by: FTL_Ian on May 30, 2009, 05:50:26 pm
My post was directed at Max, not you, Dave.  Apparently nothing has been resolved to his satisfaction.
Title: Re: "This movement is Snowballing, More in Keene, than Anywhere."
Post by: maxxoccupancy on May 31, 2009, 02:14:53 pm
It was from a different thread, followed by FTL Ian responding with something like, "You hit the nail on the head," or something like that.  That was followed by some previous remark by several seacoasters (and MVP folks) that there is a lot going on elsewhere in the state, not just Keene.  This was then followed by FTL Ian insisting that no one had ever stated that "everything" was happening in Keene, contradicting an FTL Ian post not 24 hours old.  The ink was barely dry on the electrons when FTL Ian essentially denied stating what he himself had just stated.

Do I have time to go back through every Keene-oriented thread, when there are so many on these boards?  When there is at least one other forum dedicated solely to the lively and provocative Free Keene effort?  Not really.  I have spent seven years recruiting folks for the FSP, and have found that Nashua, Keene, and Seabrook are all great for talking to potential movers.  I no longer post on "The Great Can't/Won't Debate" because that's all it is.  Debatarianism is what killed the national LP in America, leading to the famous "Shut the F--- Up and Vote" bumper stickers and buttons.

We have only 168 hours per week, and I spend most of that time recruiting folks and showing prospective movers that there are LOTS of great towns in New Hampshire to move to, with a virtual shopping mall of different types of activism available.  Anyone reading this board would be well informed to note that almost any town in New Hampshire would be a great one to live in.  I have found Seabrook to be fantastic, and 700 plus movers have found 238 towns and cities all over the state, with concentrations of activists in several towns that are worth visiting at the first opportunity.
Title: Re: "This movement is Snowballing, More in Keene, than Anywhere."
Post by: lloydbob1 on May 31, 2009, 05:34:41 pm
It is no surprise that Keene draws so many.  Lots of activism, Free Tak Live and the massive FSP Headquarters(PO Box 1684, Keene, NH 03431).  It is also considerably closer to the center of the Universe, Grafton than Seabrook, so, it wins!
Title: Re: "This movement is Snowballing, More in Keene, than Anywhere."
Post by: FTL_Ian on May 31, 2009, 06:59:51 pm
It was from a different thread, followed by FTL Ian responding with something like, "You hit the nail on the head," or something like that.  That was followed by some previous remark by several seacoasters (and MVP folks) that there is a lot going on elsewhere in the state, not just Keene.  This was then followed by FTL Ian insisting that no one had ever stated that "everything" was happening in Keene, contradicting an FTL Ian post not 24 hours old.  The ink was barely dry on the electrons when FTL Ian essentially denied stating what he himself had just stated.

Big talk.  No links.   ::)
Title: Re: "This movement is Snowballing, More in Keene, than Anywhere."
Post by: maxxoccupancy on June 02, 2009, 05:06:34 am
Point being that recruiting new folks is worthwhile.  Digging up your old posts from other threads isn't.

I'm in LA right now talking to folks about the fsp, and that is definitely worth the time and effort.
Title: Re: "This movement is Snowballing, More in Keene, than Anywhere."
Post by: MTPorcupine3 on June 02, 2009, 10:22:02 am
Point being that recruiting new folks is worthwhile.  Digging up your old posts from other threads isn't.

I'm in LA right now talking to folks about the fsp, and that is definitely worth the time and effort.

Louisiana or Los Angeles?
Title: Re: "This movement is Snowballing, More in Keene, than Anywhere."
Post by: maxxoccupancy on June 02, 2009, 09:26:03 pm
I fly to Louisiana in order to sail out of the west coast.  The modern ships being built are capable of long distance flight over land.  As a matter of fact, I help maintain the anti-matter anti-gravity drive that keeps these ships in the air, despite the fact that they weigh in at over 400 million tons fully loaded.

Yeah, Louisiana.
Title: Re: "This movement is Snowballing, More in Keene, than Anywhere."
Post by: lloydbob1 on June 02, 2009, 10:28:44 pm
If that is true it looks like telecommuting is right around the corner for you!
Title: Re: "This movement is Snowballing, More in Keene, than Anywhere."
Post by: Dreepa on June 03, 2009, 06:46:31 am
I fly to Louisiana in order to sail out of the west coast.  The modern ships being built are capable of long distance flight over land.  As a matter of fact, I help maintain the anti-matter anti-gravity drive that keeps these ships in the air, despite the fact that they weigh in at over 400 million tons fully loaded.

Yeah, Louisiana.
wow someone who doesn't know you asks a question and you give him that response?
Uhm couldn't you take a ship from NO (that is New Orleans NOT North Oregon) and go thru the Panama Canal to get to the West Coast?
Title: Re: "This movement is Snowballing, More in Keene, than Anywhere."
Post by: lloydbob1 on June 03, 2009, 06:54:44 am
Typical Max
Title: Re: "This movement is Snowballing, More in Keene, than Anywhere."
Post by: TEBON on June 04, 2009, 02:48:18 pm
for real, take a chill pill.
Title: Re: "This movement is Snowballing, More in Keene, than Anywhere."
Post by: maxxoccupancy on June 04, 2009, 06:55:29 pm
Dude, I've gotten the Los Angeles/Louisiana query like five times, now.  I ship out of the west coast, go to LA like 2-3 times a year, work on the pacific.  More importantly, people usually fly to a city, rather than an entire state.  Is there only one airport for the entire state of Louisiana?  Does it even make sense? "I'm flying to the airport in Louisiana..."

Omigosh, this is so frickin off topic.  Why did I even respond.......

Bottom line, doing more recruiting while I'm down here.  There are plenty of mariners who are able and willing to travel to a no state income tax state, although New England is kind of far.
Title: Re: "This movement is Snowballing, More in Keene, than Anywhere."
Post by: TEBON on June 04, 2009, 07:11:28 pm
for real, take a chill pill