Free State Project Forum

FSP -- General Discussion => The Friendly Forum => Topic started by: Luck on April 08, 2009, 10:25:55 am

Title: Free Town Project (Floating Islands for Real)
Post by: Luck on April 08, 2009, 10:25:55 am
FREE TOWN PROJECT
* While we're attempting to build a free state here in NH, some are also trying to build free towns and maybe counties. Most are working on existing towns, I think, but we could also build free towns from scratch. Couldn't we?
* The recent LRC article at http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig8/bryan6.html (http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig8/bryan6.html), "Small Town Anarchy", seems to be a pretty sensible free market way to "police" a town. Are the Keeners, or others, considering some such model? Would that model work for counties too?
* I'd like to discuss here more thoroughly how we could build free towns from scratch, as well as how to make existing towns free.

My Goal is world peace, freedom & prosperity for all. My plan is:
Convert society from authoritarianism to win-win decision making. Win-win means everyone hearing everyone's main concerns and finding solutions that satisfy all such concerns, instead of conventional win-lose process, which seeks only to satisfy the in-group's concerns.
1. develop Project Win-Win; [mostly finished]
2. start Libertarian schools and towns based on win-win;
3. convert NH towns, counties & the state to win-win, then other states & countries;
2a. discuss ideas with FSP folks et al to work out the details
2b. ask Mark Warden et al about where might be the best place to start a town;
2c. plan to obtain property, start a school and plan each town;

What are the requirements for a town? Can a town be unincorporated? What are advantages of incorporating?
What occupations are needed in a town?




Title: Re: Free Town
Post by: Luck on April 08, 2009, 10:28:40 am
This post http://www.dailypaul.com/node/76176 (http://www.dailypaul.com/node/76176) mentions advantages of incorporating.
Quote
If you live in an unincorporated area of your county, and if you have neighbors who agree, then incorporate into a town.
You will get a tax jurisdiction code and will start to receive the county tax that had been kept by the county from things like telecom and electric. You can set your own property tax and sales tax (both should preferably be zero).

With those funds, your town will provide police/court/building inspector, town council, road maintenance, etc. You don't really need your own police employee as you can rent that from the Sheriff under a contract.
The largest expense will be road maintenance and police, though you can go light on the police and rent/hire a part-timer and rent space in the county jail as-needed.
After everything is set up and running for a year and if you want a legal fight, have your town council work with your town attorney (part-timer on contract) to write a letter to the Feds telling them that access to any area within the town limits is only allowed by prior written permission. Make all roads private and post "no trespassing" signs on every road and set the ticket fee for trespassing to an enormous amount.
There are town in America with only a few dozen people. For those in unincorporated areas, this would take some leg-work but it can happen. Think of a good town name.
Quote
To incorporate a town is simply some well-accepted paperwork - very mainstream. People could stay near where they already live or at least in the same county if there are unincorporated areas near where they live. What would be the hesitation to start?
Title: Re: Free Town
Post by: Lumpy on April 08, 2009, 10:47:27 am
This post http://www.dailypaul.com/node/76176 (http://www.dailypaul.com/node/76176) mentions advantages of incorporating.
Quote
If you live in an unincorporated area of your county, and if you have neighbors who agree, then incorporate into a town.
You will get a tax jurisdiction code and will start to receive the county tax that had been kept by the county from things like telecom and electric. You can set your own property tax and sales tax (both should preferably be zero).

With those funds, your town will provide police/court/building inspector, town council, road maintenance, etc. You don't really need your own police employee as you can rent that from the Sheriff under a contract.
The largest expense will be road maintenance and police, though you can go light on the police and rent/hire a part-timer and rent space in the county jail as-needed.
After everything is set up and running for a year and if you want a legal fight, have your town council work with your town attorney (part-timer on contract) to write a letter to the Feds telling them that access to any area within the town limits is only allowed by prior written permission. Make all roads private and post "no trespassing" signs on every road and set the ticket fee for trespassing to an enormous amount.
There are town in America with only a few dozen people. For those in unincorporated areas, this would take some leg-work but it can happen. Think of a good town name.
Quote
To incorporate a town is simply some well-accepted paperwork - very mainstream. People could stay near where they already live or at least in the same county if there are unincorporated areas near where they live. What would be the hesitation to start?
...  or we can all simply move to Grafton.   ;D
Title: Re: Free Town
Post by: ivyleague28477 on April 08, 2009, 08:57:14 pm
 ;D
Title: Re: Free Town
Post by: Luck on April 09, 2009, 09:12:42 am
Quote
or we can all simply move to Grafton.
* Are you planning to move there? Or are you already there?
* How many Libertarians are on the town board there? How Libertarian is Grafton?
* Does it have property taxes, sales taxes, a police dept? Are there zoning laws? Is it ripe for the "Small Town Anarchy" model or similar Libertarian models?
* What about other existing towns? Are any others ripe for adopting Libertarian models?
* What areas have the cheapest land to buy or rent, with no zoning laws, where new Libertarians could camp out & start to get settled?
Title: Re: Free Town Project
Post by: Russell Kanning on April 09, 2009, 09:20:02 am
There is nothing happening in Grafton ... move along, nothing to see here.  ;)

I personally am interested in getting more likeminded people to join us in the area of Grafton. I posted that article in our paper, but am more interested in working to a purely voluntary society. I have no need for police, either government or private.

You can join us here for a visit or the rest of your life.
Title: Re: Free Town Project
Post by: Lumpy on April 09, 2009, 10:01:40 pm
There is nothing happening in Grafton ... move along, nothing to see here.  ;)

I personally am interested in getting more likeminded people to join us in the area of Grafton. I posted that article in our paper, but am more interested in working to a purely voluntary society. I have no need for police, either government or private.

You can join us here for a visit or the rest of your life.

Me thinks that many like minded are already there.   :D

Grafton is heaven.  Isn't it?
Title: Re: Free Town Project
Post by: Luck on April 09, 2009, 10:15:35 pm
Quote
interested in working to a purely voluntary society. I have no need for police, either government or private.
* Sounds fine to me.
- Does Grafton have zoning laws or property taxes?
- Is there land or space to buy or rent cheap?
- Are Libertarians in the majority?
- Is there a city board and are many of the board members Libertarians?
Title: Re: Free Town Project
Post by: research101 on April 09, 2009, 10:27:31 pm
We may be Grafton bound??? Eventually....:)
Title: Re: Free Town Project
Post by: lloydbob1 on April 10, 2009, 05:51:21 am
Quote
interested in working to a purely voluntary society. I have no need for police, either government or private.
* Sounds fine to me.
- Does Grafton have zoning laws or property taxes?
- Is there land or space to buy or rent cheap?
- Are Libertarians in the majority?
- Is there a city board and are many of the board members Libertarians?

Grafton has no zoning.
All Towns have property taxes
lots of land
Like everywhere, libertarians are not in the majority, but we have quite a few including some natives.
We have a 5 member planning board with two libertarians on it.
Title: Re: Free Town Project
Post by: Russell Kanning on April 10, 2009, 08:14:36 am
Quote
interested in working to a purely voluntary society. I have no need for police, either government or private.
* Sounds fine to me.
- Does Grafton have zoning laws or property taxes?
- Is there land or space to buy or rent cheap?
- Are Libertarians in the majority?
- Is there a city board and are many of the board members Libertarians?
no ... 2% property taxes
yes/no ... cheaper than other parts of NH ... not as cheap as empty land in NM
I have met only decent folks ... some grouches work for the government here, so I try to stay out of their office
don't know
Title: Re: Free Town Project
Post by: Russell Kanning on April 10, 2009, 08:16:49 am
Grafton is heaven.  Isn't it?
If this is heaven ... I am a little disappointed.
I think you can see heaven from here.
We could make this heaven on earth though ... as Tolstoy said ... the kingdom of God is within you
Title: Re: Free Town Project
Post by: MK on April 10, 2009, 10:01:05 am


Grafton has no zoning.

We have a 5 member planning board with two libertarians on it.
[/quote]

==========================


That's really cool!  I wonder how many other towns across the US can say 2 out of 5 on the planning board are Libertarians plus No Zoning!

I don't know about you but just hearing that makes me want to build something! :)
Title: Re: Free Town Project
Post by: Luck on April 10, 2009, 12:25:59 pm
* That's interesting about no zoning etc.
* I was just now looking for the population of Grafton. From the following site, I found that it's a bit over 1,100. And I see it also talks about a Free Town Project in Grafton in 2003 to 2004, which I didn't even know about till now.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grafton,_New_Hampshire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grafton,_New_Hampshire)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Town_Project (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Town_Project)
Title: Re: Free Town Project
Post by: Russell Kanning on April 10, 2009, 01:13:07 pm
if you want to start up your own free town with different rules than typical governments, i think that in Grafton would be a good choice for one in NH
we already have many gangs that claim land ownership, taxing ability, and the authority to tell you how to live
town of grafton
county of grafton
state of nh
u.s. of a.
union of north america
al gore of carbon tax barons are us
u.n. of hey! stop burning our flag

we ignore some of them, we give in to others
Title: Re: Free Town Project
Post by: Lumpy on April 10, 2009, 11:14:12 pm
I like.  I like a lot.  Can't get up to Grafton yet but I can tell you, it's in my day dreams...  I've been there.  It's as close to heaven as it gets... to me.
Title: Re: Free Town Project
Post by: maxxoccupancy on April 11, 2009, 12:47:42 am
Grafton has a high content of liberty lovers, and is probably the biggest (per capita) free town project.  Keene also has a lot of CD activists, though there's much less political involvement.  Manchester has, by far, the most activists and movers overall, but is also the largest city north of Boston.  On the coast, Seabrook is now building a pool of activists and movers, while Deerfield (just 4,000 people) is attracting interest because of Ron Helwig's Little Minnesota.
Title: Re: Free Town Project
Post by: Russell Kanning on April 11, 2009, 07:22:32 am
How would you think this guys idea would work in Seabrook? I don't have a feel for the place.
Title: Re: Free Town Project
Post by: Dreepa on April 11, 2009, 05:54:49 pm
Please no one more to my town.  We don't want to be free. :P
Title: Re: Free Town Project
Post by: Lumpy on April 11, 2009, 09:40:08 pm
I like.  I like a lot.  Can't get up to Grafton yet but I can tell you, it's in my day dreams...  I've been there.  It's as close to heaven as it gets... to me.
Title: Re: Free Town Project
Post by: lloydbob1 on April 12, 2009, 06:08:05 am
Please no one more to my town.  We don't want to be free. :P
Just like Max, you have nothing to worry about your town becoming free.
Title: Re: Free Town Project
Post by: Dreepa on April 12, 2009, 08:57:36 am
Please no one more to my town.  We don't want to be free. :P
Just like Max, you have nothing to worry about your town becoming free.

I am not worrying.

But I do hear wonderful things about Seabrook Lloyd.  Wonderful things.
Title: Re: Free Town Project
Post by: Lumpy on April 12, 2009, 03:19:30 pm
How would you think this guys idea would work in Seabrook? I don't have a feel for the place.
Seconding that!  Curious, as I've lived on the ocean now for a few years.
Title: Re: Free Town Project
Post by: maxxoccupancy on April 12, 2009, 04:40:35 pm
The folks in Seabrook are definitely liberty minded folk, and generally are willing to let you do almost anything you want with your own land and your own life.  There isn't much zoning here, and they allow variances for almost anything.  Kevin Bloom's effort to put a microbrewery here (with or without a restaurant) failed only because there weren't enough low cost locations for him that offered enough square footage.  Almost anything you'd want to offer, folks here are okay with.

In 101 Reasons to Move to Seabrook, I also noted that there were more Ron Paul signs in people's yards than any other candidate.  His message resonated with people here, and I keep meeting Ron Paul folks and seeing Ron Paul bumper stickers on cars and trucks.  About half of the spending articles got voted down this year (not unusual), and more would get voted down if the track or the power plant were to close.  Folks here just won't accept high tax rates.  It was neat having to hear the folks at the Seabrook Community Center complain about how Seabrook residents don't want to "pay for anything," although it was also disappointing to here that a lot of folks don't want to pay user fees, either.
Title: Re: Free Town Project
Post by: Russell Kanning on April 12, 2009, 04:56:58 pm
The folks in Seabrook are definitely liberty minded folk, and generally are willing to let you do almost anything you want with your own land and your own life. 

In 101 Reasons to Move to Seabrook, I also noted that there were more Ron Paul signs in people's yards than any other candidate.  His message resonated with people here, and I keep meeting Ron Paul folks and seeing Ron Paul bumper stickers on cars and trucks.
cool

I saw a ron paul sign on a telephone pole 2 days ago in bow or dunbarton :)
Title: Re: Free Town Project
Post by: Russell Kanning on April 12, 2009, 04:57:56 pm
How would you think this guys idea would work in Seabrook? I don't have a feel for the place.
Seconding that!  Curious, as I've lived on the ocean now for a few years.
you seconded my question or my lack of info? ;)
Title: Re: Free Town Project
Post by: Luck on April 12, 2009, 07:33:45 pm
* I'd like to persuade NH college and high school kids to join the FSP in any of the potential free towns.
* Can anyone put together some video clips and written sales pitches for any of the towns or potential town sites where there are already Free Staters?
* I think I know someone who can edit them. They could then be uploaded to Youtube and I and anyone could give the links to young people.
* I'm willing to work with a group on such a sub-project, if anyone else is interested. We could collaborate via email etc, or in person with anyone near Manchester or Nashua.
Title: Re: Free Town Project
Post by: maxxoccupancy on April 12, 2009, 07:44:26 pm
My point being that I drove all up and down the seacoast region during the primary doing research, and was stunned at how many Seabrook folks had signs for Paul.  There were a few of the others, but by and large, Ron Paul had the most.  In fact, Seabrook was the only town I saw like that out here by the ocean.  The fact that Ron Paul did a little better here than in other towns (beating Giuliani with 11% of the vote), also supports this.  The townsmembers also voted better on the warrant articles than people do elsewhere (13 of 28 spending measures shot down), and that the worst statists garner few votes here.  Moreover, talking with the people out here reinforces the proliberty attitude of the people.  Even the out of staters tend to come from relatively proliberty North Shore and Florida, rather than Mass, New Jersey, and New York.
Title: Re: Free Town Project
Post by: Dave Mincin on April 12, 2009, 08:44:27 pm
I live in Barrington, and it is also part of the Seacoast Region.  We voted down every single spending issue, and on top of that cut 300k+ from the
school budget.  We have 5 freestaters in Barrington, and we all attended our deliberative session, and spoke out against higher taxed.  Did you
attend your deliberative sessions?

Just curious Max.  How many freestaters live in Seabrook?  Please don't count Brenden, he is not a freestater, or the 2 folks currently staying
at your place who bought a condo in Rollinsford.
Title: Re: Free Town Project
Post by: Lumpy on April 12, 2009, 11:08:48 pm
How would you think this guys idea would work in Seabrook? I don't have a feel for the place.
Seconding that!  Curious, as I've lived on the ocean now for a few years.
you seconded my question or my lack of info? ;)
the question.
Title: Re: Free Town Project
Post by: Dreepa on April 13, 2009, 09:13:11 am
Ron Paul got 76 votes in Seabrook  Population 8500ish.
My town had 81 votes and the population is 5500ish.  And it is full of statists.
Title: Re: Free Town Project
Post by: Mark D on April 13, 2009, 09:21:03 am
Ron Paul got 76 votes in Seabrook  Population 8500ish.
My town had 81 votes and the population is 5500ish.  And it is full of statists.
and that's assuming that all of the Paul votes were actually tallied.  My understanding is that there was a bit of a problem with that around the state.
Title: Re: Free Town Project
Post by: maxxoccupancy on April 13, 2009, 06:02:07 pm
I live in Barrington, and it is also part of the Seacoast Region.  We voted down every single spending issue, and on top of that cut 300k+ from the
school budget.  We have 5 freestaters in Barrington, and we all attended our deliberative session, and spoke out against higher taxed.  Did you
attend your deliberative sessions?

Just curious Max.  How many freestaters live in Seabrook?  Please don't count Brenden, he is not a freestater, or the 2 folks currently staying
at your place who bought a condo in Rollinsford.

I think that it's a mistake not to count liberty activists, and, although I have considered this to be a major problem from the get go, I will not address the matter here.

I ran detailed analysis on every town within two miles of the ocean (ocean effect towns east of or near I-95, which I consider to be seacoast regions), and Seabrook took first or second in almost every category, from weather to snowfall, from job base to tax rates.  Barrington is 20 miles from the seacoast (according to Mapquest), and its winter lows are actually lower than either Manchester or Concord--not milder like seacoast towns.  Seabrooks average winter low is 14.7 with a comfort index of 53, while Barrington is 12.9, about the same as Manchester.  The biggest issue in winter is the fact that the winds on the ocean effect towns tend to come from the south and/or from the ocean itself.  When the wind is blowing, it is rarely pouring down from Canada.  Barrington is also a higher elevation, and gets a lot more snow than ocean effect towns.

Barrington's property tax rate per thousand is $37 ($3.70 per hundred dollars in valuation) according to http://www.archive.org/stream/annualreportofto194647barr/annualreportofto194647barr_djvu.txt which is about twice Portsmouth's and more than three times the $11.56 per thousand in Seabrook.  For Barrington:

Quote
Average Rate of taxation per one hundred
dollars valuation for all purposes 3.70

Although Seabrook's population is set at 7900 officially, much of that moves south for the winter (many fiscally conservative retirees who weren't here for the presidential primary).  The 76 Ron Paul votes are out of a total of, IIRC, a little over 700 votes.  It was the only town actually on (or next to) the shorline with 11% support for Ron Paul.  Barrington's
Quote
Population in July 2007: 8,405. Population change since 2000: +11.1%
is certainly more of a long term concern than for Seabrook, which is limiting new housing while encouraging commercial development.

I'm sure that Barrington is a nice town otherwise (not sucky like Keene, which sucks BTW), but I have never viewed it as a seacoast town or receptive to any free town migration.  Worse, its voter registration does not indicate strong liberty leanings.  From http://www.bestplaces.net/city/Barrington-New_Hampshire.aspx# 
Quote
55.57% of the people in Barrington, NH are registered as Democrats. 43.56% are registered Republican. Remaining are independent: 0.87%.
  Your own assessment of the town from a few years back (that the folks pretty much vote straight Democrat), and the Dem party's effort (and ability) to keep you from getting elected worried me about the town from the start.  Even Portsmouth leans 51.7 to 48.5% Republican, the same as Seabrook.

Seabrook folks have actually been more positive about freestaters moving in that tax lovers from other areas.  Amongst real ocean effect towns, Seabrook beats the pants of off every town out here.  It is the undisputed king of mild winters in New Hampsha, and beats even most northern towns on the issue of property taxes and zoning.  It's not quite as libertarian as Grafton, but its town government beats any other free town effort that I'm aware of.  In terms of the number of proliberty people already here, there's no question in my mind that this town is the best of the half-the-snow ocean effect towns.  We actually have a couple of proliberty State Reps here (the Perkins' pair), and the police and Seabrook employees are very proliberty.
Title: Re: Free Town Project
Post by: maxxoccupancy on April 13, 2009, 06:08:10 pm
Ron Paul got 76 votes in Seabrook  Population 8500ish.
My town had 81 votes and the population is 5500ish.  And it is full of statists.
and that's assuming that all of the Paul votes were actually tallied.  My understanding is that there was a bit of a problem with that around the state.

You're 100% right.  A number of towns didn't report any RP votes at first.  When those votes were later "found" (perhaps enough missing ballots to beat Giuliani), the state wide totals didn't change.  Mysterious...

The point being that, in my experience, there were a shocking number of Ron Paul signs in people's yards in Seabrook--almost as many as all other primary candidates put together.  They were up in every neighborhood, here.  As far as out of state recruitment is concerned, we have the somewhat prolliberty north shore of Mass to reach out to, as well as Boston LP members and RP meetups, which still have a lot of people.  The other towns being looked at have many more statists within driving distance.  I have found very few statists around southern seacoast-northshore area, but many more around other free town areas.
Title: Re: Free Town Project
Post by: Dave Mincin on April 13, 2009, 06:53:07 pm
According to the NH Tourist Bureau, which has NH divided into 7 regions, the Seacoast Region consists of Strafford County and the eastern half of Rockingham County.  Many folks who don't live in NH think the Seacoast Region consists of our 17 miles of ocean front only, but that is not accurate. If that was the case the number of freestaters in the Seacoast reigion would be i in Seabrook, and a half dozen or so in Portsmouth.  We have folks in Farmington, Rochester, Dover, Barrington, Nottingham,
Strafford, Exeter, Epping, Hampton, Rolinsford, Somersworth, and Lee  Sorry Max take your beef up with the Tourist Bureau.  I'm sure I missed a few towns. :)
Title: Re: Free Town Project
Post by: maxxoccupancy on April 13, 2009, 07:38:19 pm
We have five in Seabrook that I know of off the top of my head.  I count activists total, not just those who've moved here as part of the fsp, which would put that total much higher.  Another fair measure is the total number of proliberty people serving in elective office as a percentage of the total.  Including Selectmen, etc, that figure hovers around half in Seabrook (e.g., two of three Selectmen and two of five Legislators), and has been that way for a while.  When you start counting the Seabrook Taxpayer's Association and other activists efforts here promoting liberty, we're just adding to the property rights and taxpayers advocates already here.  Virtually everyone I've met (who lives in town) is proliberty.  That hasn't been true in any other town I've lived in.
Title: Re: Free Town Project
Post by: Dave Mincin on April 13, 2009, 07:39:21 pm
Barrington's property tax rate per thousand is $37 ($3.70 per hundred dollars in valuation) according to http://www.archive.org/stream/annualreportofto194647barr/annualreportofto194647barr_djvu.txt which is about twice Portsmouth's and more than three times the $11.56 per thousand in Seabrook.  For Barrington:


This is nonsense.  There is not a town in NH with a rate that high, and as for your link, it says nothing.  Barrington Rate...from it's website.
Town rate $ 2.91
Local school  $11.44
State school  $ 2.05
County          R2.19
Total        $18.60

What is your county rate, school rate, town rate, and state school rate.  Please show the whole picture Max.

One common mistake folks make that are not framiliar with NH, and it's various areas is simply to look at a rate and think a place is cheaper.  While not always a general
rule is the closer you are to the ocean, or a lake, and the closer you are to the MA border, the higher the cost of house is.  So you must look at the cost of housing in the
particular area to determine the true cost

I might add that housing is much more affordable in the areas of the Seacoast Region that don't border the ocean.
Title: Re: Free Town Project
Post by: freedomroad on April 13, 2009, 11:41:07 pm
Ron Paul got 76 votes in Seabrook  Population 8500ish.
My town had 81 votes and the population is 5500ish.  And it is full of statists.
and that's assuming that all of the Paul votes were actually tallied.  My understanding is that there was a bit of a problem with that around the state.

I'm pretty sure recounts were done most places in question and the original vote counts were pretty accurate.  The problem was that laws were broken with the handling of the votes, not the actual counting.  The votes are real.  Ron Paul really did do better in NH than most other states.

About Seabrook, it is the least expensive of the ocean towns in NH.  Property tax rates are low but some of the houses have high values.  However, a lot of the folks here live in trailers so they really do have low property taxes compared to most of NH.  Seabrook (or really the power plant) also offers more services than the vast majority of towns in NH. 

If I had to live on the ocean, I'd pick Seabrook.
Title: Re: Free Town Project
Post by: maxxoccupancy on April 14, 2009, 01:31:04 am
The average price is the same for both towns, $270k.  More importantly, we are not being charged extra for garbage collection, sewer, recycling, street parking, fines, parking tickets, beach parking, ambulance, and other issues.  Almost everything is bundled in either the property tax or the car tax, both of which are relatively low.  The actual vote totals for proliberty candidates--and the number who are actually getting elected--is much higher than in other parts of the seacoast region, even going all the way out to Barrington.

For Barrington's elected officials
Brown, Larry (D) D, C for 2006
Burke, Rachel (D) F
Cyr, James (D) CT
DeChane, Marlene (D) D+
Oppenheimer, Kay (D) Inc
Perry, Robert (D) D
Srnec, Robert (D) Inc
Vachon, Dennis (D) F
Bickford, David (R) C+ for 2006
Jacky Cilley, St. Senator, CT, D+ for 2006
Barrington also had some B Reps, but as many F Reps in the past.

For Seabrook:
Moore, Benjamin (R) Inc
Preston, Mark (D) Inc
Weare, Everett (R) C+
Webber, James (D) CT (does not sound like he will be in office for very long, according to locals)
Weare, Albert (R) previously C, C+ for2006
Morris, Richard (R) previously C (56.5%), B for 2006
Garrity, Patrick (D) previously D+
Palazo, Frank (R) previously C+
Our two new reps (both Perkins) appear to be proliberty folks, and Seabrook has produced several A and B Reps.
Martha Fuller Clark is one of 13 CT State Senators, but was nearly tossed out last time by Quandt (NHLA 70%), and will probably be booted in 2010.  Seabrook has numerous proliberty and fiscally conservative folks already service in local office, not to mention former LP State Chair Brendan Kelly, who is a Selectman, and who garnered more votes for State Rep than almost any other Libertarian candidate in 2008.  Abul Khan is also a fiscally conservative member of the Board of Selectmen.
Title: Re: Free Town Project
Post by: coyote on April 14, 2009, 03:28:30 am
I'm exploring different business ideas for when I move. If there is no zoning in Grafton, does that mean I could open a microbrewery (not a brewpub) anywhere there? Most towns want to you be in an area zoned either for a restaurant or a factory (depending on the town). When you say no zoning, is that for businesses also?
Title: Re: Free Town Project
Post by: lloydbob1 on April 14, 2009, 05:32:58 am
Anywhere
Title: Re: Free Town Project
Post by: ivyleague28477 on April 14, 2009, 07:07:39 am
some places might not be a great idea cuz they're for-ev-er off the beaten path (and you might want customers to be able to access....), but yep - anywhere.
Title: Re: Free Town Project
Post by: Mark D on April 14, 2009, 08:06:33 am
Martha Fuller Clark is one of 13 CT State Senators, but was nearly tossed out last time by Quandt (NHLA 70%), and will probably be booted in 2010. 

Please make it so!  She has been such an appalling Senator and enemy of freedom.
Title: Re: Free Town Project
Post by: Dreepa on April 14, 2009, 08:44:36 am
Ron Paul got 76 votes in Seabrook  Population 8500ish.
My town had 81 votes and the population is 5500ish.  And it is full of statists.
and that's assuming that all of the Paul votes were actually tallied.  My understanding is that there was a bit of a problem with that around the state.

This is more hype than fact.  A few votes were found but Ron Paul didn't win NH as I have seen some Youtube video think.
Title: Re: Free Town Project
Post by: lloydbob1 on April 14, 2009, 08:56:59 am
Ron Paul got 76 votes in Seabrook  Population 8500ish.
My town had 81 votes and the population is 5500ish.  And it is full of statists.

Grafton: 57 votes for Ron Paul.  Population: 1200
Title: Re: Free Town Project
Post by: Dave Mincin on April 14, 2009, 09:03:37 am
Thanks for the information Max, I wasn't aware the Carol Vite, and Susan Price are no longer
Barrington reps. :D  I'm done here.,  I have to go pay my $37. per thousand tax bill! ;D
Title: Re: Free Town Project
Post by: Mark D on April 14, 2009, 09:59:45 am
Ron Paul got 76 votes in Seabrook  Population 8500ish.
My town had 81 votes and the population is 5500ish.  And it is full of statists.
and that's assuming that all of the Paul votes were actually tallied.  My understanding is that there was a bit of a problem with that around the state.

This is more hype than fact.  A few votes were found but Ron Paul didn't win NH as I have seen some Youtube video think.

I feel as though you're putting words in my mouth.  I didn't in any way suggest that Ron Paul won anything.  I said that their was a problem.  I don't agree that it was more hype than fact.  The town of Sutton reported zero (out of ~ 150) votes for Ron Paul and actually had 31.  The town of Greenville reported zero but actually had twenty five.  They are only two towns with small populations but this is still a very big deal.  It speaks of a lack of procedural controls.  The fact that the errors were of the same type also suggests a potential systemic problem.  And, sadly, I don't think that we can even blame Diebold.  These "errors" occurred during human steps in the process.

Also magnitude of error may be more significant than one thinks.  Remember, one vote equates to a differential of two between any two candidates.  That is, if candidate A has 7 and Candidate B has 5 (a differential of two) I can shift 1 vote from A to B and each candidate now has 6.  The differential went from 2 to 0.  In percentage terms that can become significant very quickly.

Let's not down play this.  Screwing with votes is a BIG deal and we should be very concerned when there is a possibility that someone has tampered with an election.


Title: Re: Free Town Project
Post by: JasonPSorens on April 14, 2009, 10:05:24 am
Ron Paul got 76 votes in Seabrook  Population 8500ish.
My town had 81 votes and the population is 5500ish.  And it is full of statists.

Grafton: 57 votes for Ron Paul.  Population: 1200

Richmond and Wentworth had all you guys beat. ;) (I know who lives in Wentworth, still don't know who the Richmond RP folks were...)
Title: Re: Free Town Project
Post by: lloydbob1 on April 14, 2009, 10:09:05 am
They're never going to be Free Towns, either! ;D
Title: Re: Free Town Project
Post by: maxxoccupancy on April 14, 2009, 12:33:41 pm
Thanks for the information Max, I wasn't aware the Carol Vite, and Susan Price are no longer
Barrington reps. :D  I'm done here.,  I have to go pay my $37. per thousand tax bill! ;D

I left out anyone I couldn't find voting records for.  My inclusion was of people who've been elected in recent years, not just the current group.  The fact that Barrington is 55% Democratic, and that those Dems usually vote more statist suggests that the townsfolk willing vote and think that way on other issues.  Both of the CT Legislators from Seabrook-Hampton Falls are viewed as targets, and neither won by any large margins--with Obama's coat tails.  Going back even further, Seabrookers have generally elected very proliberty people at all levels.

Finally, I don't see how you can smile so wide and wink at the same time.  I guess that that's a skill us Brook folk just can't manage, eh. ;/
Title: Re: Free Town Project
Post by: maxxoccupancy on April 14, 2009, 12:49:09 pm
I'm exploring different business ideas for when I move. If there is no zoning in Grafton, does that mean I could open a microbrewery (not a brewpub) anywhere there? Most towns want to you be in an area zoned either for a restaurant or a factory (depending on the town). When you say no zoning, is that for businesses also?

Seabrook is great on business issues.  Kevin Bloom was given approval to go ahead with a microbrewery here in Seabrook, but ended up moving to Hookset over cost and square footage concerns.  There are now more locations here than before.  Also, there are a lot of cars coming up and down Route 1, which fuels a lot of Seabrook's business activity.  We have enough commercial development for a town of 30-40,000 people, but without the enormous population.  Because business pays in more than they use in services, Seabrook would still be a modestly taxed town even without the power plant.  Without the power plant and dog track paying revenues in, folks here would just cut spending until we had a the rate back down below $13 per thousand.
Title: Re: Free Town Project
Post by: Dreepa on April 14, 2009, 06:47:02 pm
Ron Paul got 76 votes in Seabrook  Population 8500ish.
My town had 81 votes and the population is 5500ish.  And it is full of statists.
and that's assuming that all of the Paul votes were actually tallied.  My understanding is that there was a bit of a problem with that around the state.

This is more hype than fact.  A few votes were found but Ron Paul didn't win NH as I have seen some Youtube video think.

I feel as though you're putting words in my mouth.  I didn't in any way suggest that Ron Paul won anything.  I said that their was a problem.  I don't agree that it was more hype than fact.  The town of Sutton reported zero (out of ~ 150) votes for Ron Paul and actually had 31.  The town of Greenville reported zero but actually had twenty five.  They are only two towns with small populations but this is still a very big deal.  It speaks of a lack of procedural controls.  The fact that the errors were of the same type also suggests a potential systemic problem.  And, sadly, I don't think that we can even blame Diebold.  These "errors" occurred during human steps in the process.

Also magnitude of error may be more significant than one thinks.  Remember, one vote equates to a differential of two between any two candidates.  That is, if candidate A has 7 and Candidate B has 5 (a differential of two) I can shift 1 vote from A to B and each candidate now has 6.  The differential went from 2 to 0.  In percentage terms that can become significant very quickly.

Let's not down play this.  Screwing with votes is a BIG deal and we should be very concerned when there is a possibility that someone has tampered with an election.


Sutton was a true mistake... but there are those who insis that RP won and they use Sutton as an example.

If you go into these small towns in NH you can hardly think of conspiracy...poor math maybe but not conspiracy.  Old ladies who have been there forever usually don't have a political agenda.

I was here on the ground.  Ron Paul lost for many reasons... large scale cheating or miscounting was not among them.

Jason... I know lots of the Richmond voters.
http://www.saintbenedict.com/
Title: Re: Free Town Project
Post by: maxxoccupancy on April 14, 2009, 07:09:05 pm
Not to go off topic, but I saw a lot of suspicious activity.  Ron Paul was polling in double digits continuously in the weeks before the primary.  When I voted, I saw tons of NY, NJ, RI, CT, VT, PA plates and such, and a lot of people registering same day who I'd never seen before.

85% voter turnout state wide?  There were districts pushing 100% turn out even though about one-third of the locals I talked to said that they weren't voting.

Worse, election observers were compelled, for the first time, to wait on the other side of the room so that they couldn't possibly see what was going on.
Title: Re: Free Town Project
Post by: Dreepa on April 14, 2009, 07:15:44 pm
Not to go off topic, but I saw a lot of suspicious activity.  Ron Paul was polling in double digits continuously in the weeks before the primary.  When I voted, I saw tons of NY, NJ, RI, CT, VT, PA plates and such, and a lot of people registering same day who I'd never seen before.



Can you say OBAMA?

Title: Re: Free Town Project
Post by: rossby on April 14, 2009, 07:29:53 pm
Not to go off topic, but I saw a lot of suspicious activity.  Ron Paul was polling in double digits continuously in the weeks before the primary.  When I voted, I saw tons of NY, NJ, RI, CT, VT, PA plates and such, and a lot of people registering same day who I'd never seen before.



Can you say OBAMA?


I try not to...
Title: Re: Free Town Project
Post by: maxxoccupancy on April 14, 2009, 07:36:26 pm
I can say, "McCain, Clinton, Obama, Romney..."  We know who benefited.  If we could poll locals at home when the polls were closing, you would have seen slightly higher numbers for Ron Paul.  The out of state people coming in rarely even knew who Ron Paul was.

Worse was seeing how the ballots were handled, being hauled away.

Lots of people have reported finding ballots for one candidate in dumpsters after an election.  Absentee ballots are thrown out by the thousands every year.  King County, Washington, publicly admits that they toss over 4500 absentee ballots because they arrive after the election, but according to our election laws, absentee ballots only have to be postmarked by the election.

Nevermind all of the dishonesty and vote buying, this is ridiculous.
Title: Re: Free Town Project
Post by: Mark D on April 14, 2009, 07:38:29 pm
If you go into these small towns in NH you can hardly think of conspiracy...poor math maybe but not conspiracy.  Old ladies who have been there forever usually don't have a political agenda.

I'm familiar.  I'm a 41 year old NH resident and life long Northeasterner...I can think of a couple of NH towns that are so corrupt they make Tammany Hall look like a church group.

Really, I think I'm just debating for debates sake.  It seems we agree.  Something happened, but Paul's loss had nothing to do voter fraud.
Title: Re: Free Town Project
Post by: Dreepa on April 14, 2009, 07:46:56 pm
If you go into these small towns in NH you can hardly think of conspiracy...poor math maybe but not conspiracy.  Old ladies who have been there forever usually don't have a political agenda.

I'm familiar.  I'm a 41 year old NH resident and life long Northeasterner...I
wait... you sound as if you are me... :)
Title: Re: Free Town Project
Post by: maxxoccupancy on April 15, 2009, 12:33:45 am
I really believe that Ron Paul lost perhaps 1-2% due to ballots being tossed.  He also was polling much better amongst actual New Hampsha folk (11-14%, depending on the poll) than amongst folk in neighboring states.  In some of our southern cities, there really were A LOT of out of staters coming in and voting, though the issue was more pronounced on the Democratic side.

On topic, there are several free town efforts around New Hampshire, and it has been good to finally see Seabrook getting the attention it's due.  I wish that there were a Free Town Board on this forum so that members could encourage recruitment to their respective towns, but I'm not the moderator of this.
Title: Re: Free Town Project
Post by: lloydbob1 on April 15, 2009, 06:08:37 am
People lie when polled
Title: Re: Free Town Project
Post by: Russell Kanning on April 15, 2009, 06:57:26 am
boy after all this talk ... I can't wait to get to the polls and get my proliberty vote counted

what was this topic about again?
Title: Re: Free Town Project
Post by: Dreepa on April 15, 2009, 08:56:45 am


what was this topic about again?
why we should move to Seabrook.
Title: Re: Free Town Project
Post by: maxxoccupancy on April 15, 2009, 05:39:46 pm
* While we're attempting to build a free state here in NH, some are also trying to build free towns and maybe counties. Most are working on existing towns, I think, but we could also build free towns from scratch. Couldn't we?
* The recent LRC article at http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig8/bryan6.html (http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig8/bryan6.html), "Small Town Anarchy", seems to be a pretty sensible free market way to ...

That's the OP, and that's the topic I've tried to stay on.  My response to Luck has been to make the case for Seabrook for such an effort, and also to mention several other towns that are recruiting new movers in order to focus on local efforts.  I've also made the case that one doesn't need to limit oneself to fsp movers.  At the local level, any liberty activist will do.
Title: Re: Free Town Project
Post by: Moebius Tripp on April 15, 2009, 09:13:49 pm
I've also made the case that one doesn't need to limit oneself to fsp movers.  At the local level, any liberty activist will do.

NH isn't ranked as high in overall liberty from simply the few FSP movers.  I figure that most folks up there are fairly small-government minded, and we are just strengthening their ranks.
Title: Re: Free Town Project
Post by: maxxoccupancy on April 15, 2009, 09:25:11 pm
If we could just find the fiscal conservatives and liberty folk who have been turned off, get them into the project, and show them the NHLA scores of various officials, it would be nothing to toss out half of the statists in Concord.  I say this as an avid, six year long recruiter, that it's the locals who should be targeted by our efforts more than anything.  I've directed tons of locals to nhliberty.org and other activism sites.  I think that, in the end, this will be what really changes New Hampshire.
Title: Re: Free Town Project
Post by: freedomroad on April 15, 2009, 09:29:54 pm
We have five in Seabrook that I know of off the top of my head. 

Matt R. and his wife live in Seabook.  They are FSP activists which you may not even know.
Title: Re: Free Town Project
Post by: maxxoccupancy on April 15, 2009, 10:32:28 pm
There was one other who got here about the same time that I did.  I just can't remember who she was, and I didn't stay in touch with her.  She was a friend of Brendan Kelly.  I'll ask him next time I get a chance.
Title: Re: Free Town Project
Post by: Moebius Tripp on April 15, 2009, 11:29:13 pm
If we could just find the fiscal conservatives and liberty folk who have been turned off, get them into the project, and show them the NHLA scores of various officials, it would be nothing to toss out half of the statists in Concord.  I say this as an avid, six year long recruiter, that it's the locals who should be targeted by our efforts more than anything.  I've directed tons of locals to nhliberty.org and other activism sites.  I think that, in the end, this will be what really changes New Hampshire.

+10.  That was my presumption when I signed up.
Title: Re: Free Town Project
Post by: Dreepa on April 15, 2009, 11:37:03 pm
If we could just find the fiscal conservatives and liberty folk who have been turned off, get them into the project, and show them the NHLA scores of various officials, it would be nothing to toss out half of the statists in Concord.  I say this as an avid, six year long recruiter, that it's the locals who should be targeted by our efforts more than anything.  I've directed tons of locals to nhliberty.org and other activism sites.  I think that, in the end, this will be what really changes New Hampshire.

I strongly disagree that it would be 'nothing' to toss out half of the statists in Concord.
If it were that easy....it would already have been done.
It will take years of hard works before we can 'toss out half of them'.
Title: Re: Free Town Project
Post by: rossby on April 15, 2009, 11:38:37 pm
If we could just find the fiscal conservatives and liberty folk who have been turned off, get them into the project, and show them the NHLA scores of various officials, it would be nothing to toss out half of the statists in Concord.  I say this as an avid, six year long recruiter, that it's the locals who should be targeted by our efforts more than anything.  I've directed tons of locals to nhliberty.org and other activism sites.  I think that, in the end, this will be what really changes New Hampshire.

I strongly disagree that it would be 'nothing' to toss out half of the statists in Concord.
If it were that easy....it would already have been done.
It will take years of hard works before we can 'toss out half of them'.

Patience...
Title: Re: Free Town Project
Post by: maxxoccupancy on April 16, 2009, 12:34:57 am
You just have to find the people here who have become too turned off to vote.  There are so many close races, and we've still had trouble hitting the ground regarding on state and local races.  I'd like to get a group of activists together in Martha Fuller Clark's district (southern seacoast) and just work on doing lit drops and signs for all of the proliberty candidates in our area--state and local.  That way, people would have an actual piece of paper to take with them into the ballot booth.  A few of us did that in Manchester a few years ago with noticeable results.  I think we dished out about 200 business cards with the date of the election, who to vote for, and who were real stinkers.

Business cards are also easy to print out, carry, and give away to folks you know.
Title: Re: Free Town Project
Post by: Dreepa on April 16, 2009, 08:26:49 am
If we could just find the fiscal conservatives and liberty folk who have been turned off, get them into the project, and show them the NHLA scores of various officials, it would be nothing to toss out half of the statists in Concord.  I say this as an avid, six year long recruiter, that it's the locals who should be targeted by our efforts more than anything.  I've directed tons of locals to nhliberty.org and other activism sites.  I think that, in the end, this will be what really changes New Hampshire.

I strongly disagree that it would be 'nothing' to toss out half of the statists in Concord.
If it were that easy....it would already have been done.
It will take years of hard works before we can 'toss out half of them'.

Patience...

I have patience.  I moved here didn't I? But I want no one to have the illusion that it will be easy.
It is going to take:  time.  Money. and a lot of volunteers.  A lot.  (natives or movers)  Max is right that people IN NH should be trying to find natives who agree but that is not the job of the FSP... that is the job of the people who moved to NH.
Title: Re: Free Town Project
Post by: Lumpy on April 16, 2009, 08:58:57 am
If we could just find the fiscal conservatives and liberty folk who have been turned off, get them into the project, and show them the NHLA scores of various officials, it would be nothing to toss out half of the statists in Concord.  I say this as an avid, six year long recruiter, that it's the locals who should be targeted by our efforts more than anything.  I've directed tons of locals to nhliberty.org and other activism sites.  I think that, in the end, this will be what really changes New Hampshire.

I strongly disagree that it would be 'nothing' to toss out half of the statists in Concord.
If it were that easy....it would already have been done.
It will take years of hard works before we can 'toss out half of them'.

Patience...

I have patience.  I moved here didn't I? But I want no one to have the illusion that it will be easy.
It is going to take:  time.  Money. and a lot of volunteers.  A lot.  (natives or movers)  Max is right that people IN NH should be trying to find natives who agree but that is not the job of the FSP... that is the job of the people who moved to NH.

I think I'm going to get may family involved now too.  They are still "asleep" but this might just be the clincher.   ;)  They are not far away.
Title: Re: Free Town Project
Post by: TEBON on April 16, 2009, 03:19:18 pm
I wish you luck in Seabrook.  I would try going down South Main St. and Lower Collins St.  They're the poorer drug riddled sections of town.  If you go, act cool and bring your sidearm.  They have sidearms too, and they don't know anything about any NAP/ZAP.  FYI.

I want to visit all the areas of the state before I make my decision on where to move.  Until then I've been thinking of just moving into Danville, NH just to get into the state so I don't have to pay state income tax.
Title: Some Town Stats
Post by: Luck on April 18, 2009, 12:13:18 am
* I got the following stats on NH towns from http://www.nh.gov/nhes/elmi/communpro.htm (http://www.nh.gov/nhes/elmi/communpro.htm)
* Numbers after town names indicate population. The dollar figures represent property tax per $1,000 valuation. Elected and appointed offices seem to give indication of how conservative or liberal a town is.

* First I'm listing towns without Zoning going from north to south. Grafton & Lempster are the farthest south without zoning. It's not certain if Errol has zoning.
* New Castle2, Errol, Rye2, Chatham, Ellsworth & Seabrook2 have the lowest property taxes in these 2 groups. 2 after town names here means 2nd group [southerly].
Pittsburg... 825 $13.20 96.6% $12.48
-Elected: Selectmen
Clarksville. 288 $15.10 89.8% $12.25
-Elected: Selectmen
Stewartstown 986 $24.83 60.4% $16.05
-Elected: Selectmen; Planning; Library
Errol....... 285 $9.97 70.2% $6.85
-Elected: Selectmen; Planning; Library; Trust Funds; Zoning? -Appointed: Conservation
Stark....... 486 $15.52 91.2% $13.64
-Elected: Selectmen; Planning -Appointed: Library
Dalton...... 900 $25.46 55.4% $14.65
-Elected: Selectmen; Library -Appointed: Planning; Conservation
Chatham..... 260 $11.78 100% $11.29
-Elected: Selectmen -Appointed: Planning; Conservation
Woodstock. 1,169 $13.84 93.9% $12.81
-Elected: Selectmen; Planning -Appointed: Conservation; Library
Wentworth... 775 $14.28 88.2% $13.12
-Elected: Selectmen; Planning; Trust Funds; Town Clerk/Tax Collector -Appointed: Conservation; Library; Police Chief
Rumney.... 1,438 $15.46 94.2% $14.72
-Elected: Selectmen; Planning; Library; Trust Funds; Cemetery; Advisory -Appointed: Conservation
Tamworth.. 2,503 $19.67 84.6% $16.39
-Elected: Selectmen; Planning; Library; Firewards, Trust Funds; Checklist -Appointed: Conservation; Finance
Warren...... 922 $18.99 93% $18.36
-Elected: Selectmen; Planning; Library -Appointed: Parks & Recreation
Ellsworth.... 84 $11.47 106.1% $11.58
-Elected: Selectmen -Appointed: Planning
Orford.... 1,061 $19.79 100% $20.02
-Elected: Selectmen; Planning; Budget -Appointed: Conservation; Library
Canaan.... 3,558 $21.31 100% $20.25
-Elected: Selectmen; Planning; Budget; Library; Road Agent; Police Chief -Appointed: Conservation
Alexandria 1,521 $16.59 95.6% $16.32
-Elected: Selectmen; Planning; Cemetery; Trust Funds -Appointed: Library; Conservation
Grafton... 1,126 $19.42 100% $19.33
-Elected: Selectmen; Planning; Trust Funds; Library -Appointed: Recreation
Lempster.. 1,099 $16.10 100% $16.01
-Elected: Selectmen; Planning; Library; Cemetery; Checklist; Trust Funds -Appointed: Conservation

The rest are more southerly towns that have zoning.
Barnstead. 4,567 $18.40 94% $17.25
-Elected: Selectmen; Planning; Budget; Library; Checklist -Appointed: Zoning; Parks & Recreation; Conservation; Old Home Day
Concord.. 42,392 $19.63 96.4% $18.77
-Elected: City Council -Appointed: Planning; Zoning; Library; Conservation
Keene.... 22,893 $25.79 98.7% $25.46
-Elected: City Council -Appointed: Planning; Zoning; Library; Conservation; Cemetery
Barrington 8,405 $16.60 100% $16.46
-Elected: Selectmen; Library; Cemetery; Trust Funds -Appointed: Planning; Zoning; Conservation; Recreation
Deerfield. 4,181 $17.53 103.1% $18.46
-Elected: Selectmen; Planning -Appointed: Zoning; Library; Conservation
New Castle 1,026 $4.78 83.3% $3.98
-Elected: Selectmen; Library; Cemetery; School; Budget; Trust Funds -Appointed: Planning; Conservation; Historic District; Zoning; Public Works
Portsmouth 20,495 $16.34 92.3% $14.82
-Elected: City Council; School; Police -Appointed: Planning; Conservation; Library; Economic Development; Historic District; Zoning
Rye....... 5,174 $8.91 90.7% $8.04
-Elected: Selectmen; Planning; Budget -Appointed: Zoning; Conservation; Historic District; Mosquito
North Hampton 4,528 $16.82 91.6% $15.24
-Elected: Selectmen; Planning; Library; Trust Funds; Budget; Zoning -Appointed: Conservation
Hampton.. 15,390 $19.79 75.8% $14.85
-Elected: Selectmen; Planning; Zoning; Library; Cemetery; Trust Funds; Budget -Appointed: Conservation; Heritage; Shade Tree; Highway Safety; Leased Land Real Estate; Recreation; Cable TV; USS Hampton; Insurance Review
Hampton Falls 2,095 $20.49 81.4% $16.60
-Elected: Selectmen; Planning; Library; Cemetery; Trust Funds; Checklist -Appointed: Zoning; Conservation; Highway Safety; Recreation
Kensington 2,072 $17.54 91% $15.73
-Elected: Selectmen; Library -Appointed: Planning; Zoning; Conservation
Seabrook.. 8,509 $13.08 91.5% $11.71
-Elected: Selectmen; Planning; Library; Budget -Appointed: Zoning; Conservation
South Hampton 881 $13.99 108.6% $15.11
-Elected: Selectmen; Budget; Library; Cemetery; Trust Funds; Checklist; Auditors -Appointed: Planning; Zoning; Conservation; Historic District; Aging
Newton.... 4,520 $18.28 105.1% $19.17
-Elected: Selectmen; Planning; Library; Cemetery; Trust Funds -Appointed: Conservation; Recreation; Cable TV; Stewardship; Appeals
Plaistow.. 7,657 $19.00 95.5% $18.07
-Elected: Selectmen; Planning; Library; Budget; Trust Funds; Conflict of Interest -Appointed: Conservation; Zoning; Cable; Recreation
Atkinson.. 6,572 $14.10 103% $14.39
-Elected: Selectmen; Library -Appointed: Planning; Zoning; Conservation
Salem.... 29,498 $13.21 100% $13.13
Pelham... 12,504 $15.81 104.5% $16.54
-Elected: Selectmen; Planning -Appointed: Conservation; Library; Cemetery; Zoning
Hudson... 24,775 $15.01 97.4% $14.57
-Elected: Selectmen; Library; Cemetery; Budget -Appointed: Planning; Conservation
Manchester 108,874 $16.57 98.6% $15.79
-Elected: Mayor; Aldermen -Appointed: Planning; Conservation; Library; 25 others
Nashua... 86,837 $17.40 100% $17.21
-Elected: Aldermen; School; Public Works; Fire -Appointed: Planning; Conservation; Library; Cemetery; Zoning; Business & Industrial Development; Housing Authority
Title: Re: Free Town Project
Post by: Russell Kanning on April 18, 2009, 06:27:03 am
btw ... Canaan is next to Grafton and keeps fighting off the zoning, but it might slip

lempster might actually be south of concord, but not as close to baaaahston

if you want a place that has lower property tax % and close to boston, then maxx's seabrook would work

I try to be as far from boston as possible :)

grafton and other places tax rates are horrid, luckily the prices are cheaper and they don't constantly tell us what to do ... most tyranny here comes from the state level regarding house building and such
Title: Re: Free Town Project
Post by: Luck on April 18, 2009, 08:37:52 am
most tyranny here comes from the state level regarding house building and such
* Does the state impose building and land use restrictions? If so, what restrictions do you know of and do you know where I can find info on the restrictions?
Title: "Cheap" NH Land
Post by: Luck on April 18, 2009, 08:53:59 am
* Last summer I started a thread on NH land for sale here:
http://forum.freestateproject.org/index.php?topic=15704.msg189615 (http://forum.freestateproject.org/index.php?topic=15704.msg189615).
It showed 40 properties under $5,000 per acre for properties from 10 to 239 acres, plus one over 6,000 acres.

* This webpage http://www.landandfarm.com/lf/s/63/central_new_hampshire.asp (http://www.landandfarm.com/lf/s/63/central_new_hampshire.asp) lists a property north of Concord for over 6,500 per acre. I don't imagine those other properties all sold, but I don't see them listed. Here's info on the 45 acre place. County: Merrimack. Old Turnpike Rd, Salisbury, NH 03268 - (undeveloped land, recreational property, residential land) 45 acre $295,000. Christy Goodhue Real Estate, 148 King St., Boscawen, NH 03303, 603-796-2082, 603-731-5175.

* Is anyone looking to buy land cooperatively? I suppose group renting of land might be a better option. Agreed?
Title: Re: Free Town Project
Post by: Luck on April 20, 2009, 08:23:40 pm
* I just noticed some pretty good prices for homes or land in NH on Craigslist.
$35,000 Campton NH http://nh.craigslist.org/reo/1131868923.html (http://nh.craigslist.org/reo/1131868923.html)
$77,000 Alstead, NH http://nh.craigslist.org/reb/1131590328.html (http://nh.craigslist.org/reb/1131590328.html)
$81,900 Bethlehem, NH http://nh.craigslist.org/reb/1131569895.html (http://nh.craigslist.org/reb/1131569895.html)
$41,900 Ossipee, NH http://nh.craigslist.org/reb/1131533411.html (http://nh.craigslist.org/reb/1131533411.html)
Title: Re: Free Town Project
Post by: maxxoccupancy on April 23, 2009, 03:20:45 pm
For that matter, there are some good deals on land in Seabrook, at the moment.  If you are willing to pick something up just west of I-95, you can get a couple of acres for not very much money.  Land on the seacoast is generally considered fairly expensive.
Title: Re: Free Town Project
Post by: TEBON on April 23, 2009, 07:12:46 pm
I agree, if you check out the area west of 95, there's plenty of land and it's nice and quiet.  I'd suggest somewhere off of Route 107 near Kensington.
Title: Re: Free Town Project
Post by: maxxoccupancy on April 24, 2009, 02:58:56 pm
Yeah, but not IN Kensington, because your taxes are higher and they double charge you for everything.  If you go out there, get a couple of acres that are inside the town line.
Title: Re: Free Town Project
Post by: TEBON on April 24, 2009, 03:09:39 pm
Anywhere around the reservoir is nice, but the taxes should definitely be taken into consideration.  South Hampton is also quite nice.
Title: Re: Free Town Project
Post by: maxxoccupancy on April 24, 2009, 04:55:01 pm
Talking with folks who've been stonewalled, arrested, or who've lost local races, it's upsetting to see so many so spread out.  You really need to have about one political activist per 200 or so voters to make a dent in a town.  One bad police chief can make life difficult for people.  One bad school board member can really push things in the wrong direction.

On the other hand, if you had 20 activists in a town with 700 voters, it wouldn't take long to get rid of anyone who was abusing their political position.  The original goal of the FSP was to get about one activist for every 100 residents, or about one for every 15-20 voters.  When the numbers didn't pan out, initially, the talk moved to establishing several free town efforts.  Since then, a few of us have been working to recruit movers to a few different towns in New Hampshire, hoping to get about 2-3 activists per thousand.  We may not be able to get to 20,000 activists in total, but we may be able to reach that high a concentration in a few towns.

Seabrook, Manchester, Keene, Grafton, and a couple of other towns are already are moving in this direction.  Grafton, Manchester, and Seabrook already have very large proliberty populations and good numbers of Ron Paul folks.  I believe that this is critical to making those towns successful efforts--getting the hassle factor in those towns down to an absolute minimum.
Title: Re: Free Town Project
Post by: Dave Mincin on April 24, 2009, 06:30:26 pm
Max...HELLO!...I think it is great that you provide temporary housing for folks who move to NH, but I know of no one who stayed at your place who actually stayed in Seabrook.  Tell me I'm wrong.  Talking to folks who have lost races?  I know most of those folks, and I know of no one you talked to?  Maybe I'm wrong, but if so, tell us who you talked to.

"The original goal of the FSP was to get about one activist for every 100 residents."  Hogwash!  I suggest you read Jason's orginal article proposing the FSP.  There is nothing in there that says that!  If I'm wrong show me.  I've talked to Jason and consider him a friend.  The idea was to move to NH, where you moved was your choice, and then become a good neighbor and work in your community to help make NH more free.

Seabrook...One of the places folks are landing?  Hogwash.  I know a good number of the folks who have moved to the Seacoast Region, and I know of no one save you that has moved to Seabrook.  I agree that Seabrook has lots of liberty folks, but they are not freestaters.  Keith mentioned 2 folks, but they have not plugged in with us.
As for Brendon Kelly, he's a friend.   Per Brendon, you have done nothing to help him get elected, save putting a sign in your yard, and were missing in action at the deliberative sessions in Seabrook.

As for Seabrook, it's a nice little town, but remote, setting on the MA border.  It's hardlly the center of activity in the Seacoast Region.  In fact most of the folks who live in this region and have been working to promote freedom don't even know you, and that is on you!  From were I live in the region, I can get to both Manchester and Cojncord faster than I can get to Seabrook, so why would I even want to go there?

Sorry folks, don't mean to sound negative, but in truth, there is lots going on in the Seacoast Region.  We helped spearhead the tax caps in both Rochester and Dover, and meet regularly to promote freedom, and have a great social life, but it's not in Seabrook.  Try Dover, Rochester, or Portsmouth.

Keep up the good work Max, but please stop making stuff up!
Title: Re: Free Town Project
Post by: Dreepa on April 25, 2009, 06:12:24 am
and good numbers of Ron Paul folks. 
who didn't vote I guess.... see my other post regarding votes for RP in Seabrook itself.
Title: Re: Free Town Project
Post by: maxxoccupancy on April 26, 2009, 03:22:59 am
I saw it.  Only about 700 people voted in Seabrook for the prez primary. Consequently, Ron Paul garnered almost 11% here, despite having not visited the seacoast once, as far as I know.  I heard from seacoasters who said that they weren't hearing from any of the candidates, but that's another matter.  Most never heard about Ron Paul, but heard about Brendan Kelly, who has been writing very similar letters to the editor and talking to folks directly for many years, here.  They know his views, and elected him handily over a better known liberal who had some insider support.  I'd met several of angry statists in Manchester, but have yet to meet one here in Seabrook.

Dave, I'm not good with names, have no great memory for numbers or details, and am not great with words or arguments.  The end point is that: I believe, for many reasons, that it's better to concentrate activists in a few small areas than be spread out.  The original goal of the FSP was to get 20,000 activists into a state of 2 million or fewer residents.  Doing the math, one activist per 100 residents.  This was stated repeatedly in the Which State discussion, and was based on a long series of assumptions that a few of us questioned at the time.  I've said that you only need one activist per 100 voters, or so, amongst largely proliberty populations.  I stated at the 2004 Porcfest (several times) that we shouldn't need more than, perhaps, 5-6,000 activists to turn New Hampshire around, including mostly locals.  You just don't need as many activists if you find strongly proliberty local populations.

I spoke with you, Dave, and you lost your races for State Rep because the political machinery found you out, turned against you, and ran a smear campaign.  I know of a few movers to Seabrook, but I don't bother with the names and other details because you just argue every small point in these fora, then say that so n' so said something bad about me behind my back.  Well who cares?  Seabrook, despite being a free town effort for only one year, now has freestaters looking into permanent residency, here. 

I don't make things up, I don't lie, and I don't exaggerate facts.  You repeatedly have argued against points that I never made.  I don't need someone to sign up on the FSP website to be a liberty activist.  In my mind, a liberty activist is someone who is active in promoting liberty.  I know tons of fspers who move in and do nothing--some then leave the state or just fade away somewhere.  I am not arguing that this is not their right.  I am not arguing that they have to follow some plan I've concocted.  I am not arguing at all.  I am just tired of having you call me a liar publicly, then forcing me to restate things--sometimes five or six times--just to defend what I've already stated.

You picked Barrington to reside in, and your own failed election bids (and the actions of the political establishment) offered some convincing evidence, to my satisfaction, of the district's lackluster support for proliberty candidates.  The poor grades and high number of D, F, and CT candidates being elected from there worry me even more.  It's not, for me, the grades right this minute of State Reps, but the actual vote totals each year for proliberty people in general.  Having election results and voting records going back to about 2004, Barrington area voters have cast a lot of ballots for statists.  They haven't cast so many for proliberty candidates--perhaps fewer have run. The seacoast isn't known for electing lots of proliberty people, but Seabrook has several times--and at both the state and local level.  Talking to residents, I find some Seabrook folk will disagree with some aspect of what the effort is promoting (like legalizing prostitution, or privatizing "everything"), but they're so much more proliberty than folks I've found anywhere else.  The stats look good for Seabrook, but it's impossible to quantify the actual attitudes of folks.  Half of the spending articles that came up in Seabrook were defeated, despite the fact that Concerned Taxpayers of Seabrook hasn't held a single meeting this year (due to the organizer's health issues), or any organized effort to fight those measures.

I am making the case for encouraging migration to a few towns first, and working to improve the political and social climate in those already proliberty towns.  Seabrook is brand new effort that has only been through a single local election.  Seabrook offers easy freeway access, and quick access to almost everything--including Mass.  I've timed my drive to and from Manchester several times at between 40-45 minutes, about the same as Boston.  The climate, here, is milder, and the people friendly.  The town has very low unemployment, and you don't get charged twice for every service.  We don't have half the fines you encounter in other towns.  We don't have parking meters, extra charges for sewer, trash pick up, recycling, transfer station, beach parking, or even library fines.  We have hardly any fees, reasonable property assessments, and a very practical town government.  The zoning laws are flexible, and variances are offered, in most cases, automatically.  The town is very pro business, and folks have had a much easier time here getting things done than in neighboring areas.  Kevin Bloom stated that Seabrook was dramatically easier to deal with than Manchester as a prospective business owner, though the commercial property turned out to be a bit too expensive.

We offered to do a lot more to help Brendan get elected to State House, but he decided at the last minute not to focus on Seabrook, and to just do a mass mailer to outlying areas that are harder to doorbell.  Keith and I both offered to help, but nothing was given to us to promote or distribute.  I also donated money to his campaign, and spoke to folks here on his behalf.

Quote
Tell me I'm wrong.
Okay.
Title: Re: Free Town Project
Post by: lloydbob1 on April 26, 2009, 05:30:35 am
I love these arguments where one guy touts his not-Grafton town against the other guy's not-Grafton town.
Title: Re: Free Town Project
Post by: TEBON on April 26, 2009, 01:45:24 pm
Dave has an excellent post.  I live next to Seabrook and I don't even want to move there because of all the "opinions" that are factually wrong, exaggerated, and even untrue.

I've, too, heard of Seacoast activism. . .but it happens in Hampton (NHLA Gold Sheets), Rochester/Dover (SEAL). . . but where is the activism in Seabrook?  WHERE?????  I drive around all the time and DO actually talk to people about being free and not obeying stupid government dictates.  People still think I'm loony which suffice to say means that not much talk actually happens in Seabrook.  You'd figure that in over a year I'd find at least one person that even knows what the FSP is.

Dave is right on point except for Seabrook itself. . . I love Seabrook. . it's beautiful with a beach that's second to none around here.  I get a feeling of contentment when I drive down 286 to the beach to smell the salt water.  All that said, Seabrook is not free, and no amount of "talking" is going to do anything in the town to make it more free.   All that is fine, whatever, it's just like any other town (sans Grafton/Keene/Manchester) with its oppressive government.  The difference is that one person who is a vocal FSP member and PorcManor owner does not want civil disobedience in "his" town. 

You know, that stuff that actually gets the word "FREE STATE PROJECT" into people's minds, yeah that's not wanted here.  It'll hurt all the "talking" and "listening" that's going on in town.

I don't even like coming to this board.  Usually I like to talk to people who have a wee bit of principle, just a little, and don't want to take my money without my permission.  I'm not really into hanging out with people who want to kill a lot of brown people or get an even larger military.  I'm not into hanging out with "FreeStaters" who enjoy talking about how great it'll be to take a 'little' bit of everyone's money to fund their worldly desires.

When I go to Keene, it's fun, and stuff gets done there, true activism. . . getting the word out.  Even a "bad thought" by a statist at least gets the idea out to the people.  All the "talking" and "listening" isn't really doing much to change the collective mindset in Seabrook.  It "MIGHT" (can I say that again?)  MIGHT MIGHT MIGHT MIGHT have more "liberty oriented" (as long as you're not gay, hispanic, or black) people. . . but it is no where near in the realm of the activism in Keene and Manchester.  No one in Seabrook is even half as "free" as the people in Grafton are.  I would go so far as to say when I visited Grafton I felt more free to do things I want than I have in years.

Next time I come up Lloyd I hope you're not painting your house!
Title: Re: Free Town Project
Post by: lloydbob1 on April 26, 2009, 06:13:10 pm
I put down the brush as soon as you left.  I'll get back to it during your next visit :P
Title: Re: Free Town Project
Post by: Dave Mincin on April 26, 2009, 06:27:44 pm
Honestly I really don't know anything about Seabrook.  I have been there a couple times, and what I know has been related to be by Brendan Kelly who has been a friend
since I moved here.  Seabrook is a little to close to MA for my liking.  I didn't move to NH to hang out in MA, but that is just me, my opinion.  I have had the privilege of meeting and becoming friends with lots of folks here in the Seacoast Region, but save Brendon, none of them live in Seabrook.  Personally I believe we have an incredible and growing group of freedom folks here....but thats again just my opinion, we could care less if they are freestaters, or native.  It's about promoting freedom!

And hey Max...for the record....You never talked to me about my election run, and I have no idea where you got this thing about they found out about me?  I have never hid the reason why I moved to NH, but there was no conspiracy or that kind of thing against me.  Jim and I did a lot of joint campaigning, and worked really hard at getting elected, but in truth we lost, fair and square.  Please don't imply it was more than that.  I've been told I'm a little to honest, but if that is a crime, then I stand guilty!

Max honestly.  I have not seen you at one single activity promoting freedom here in the Seacoast region, and we have bumped heads with the powers that been on many issues.  I'm fine with you promoting Seabrook hey that is were you live, but please don't lay yourself out as and expert on what is going on in the region  One the other hand if you are willing to get involved and actually help, your most welcome to join us. :)
Title: Re: Free Town Project
Post by: Dave Mincin on April 26, 2009, 06:35:32 pm
I love these arguments where one guy touts his not-Grafton town against the other guy's not-Grafton town.

Damn you Lloyd I hope your not talking about me! ;D  But I must confess your were instrumental in getting
Suzanne plugged into what we are doing, and for that I will be eternally grateful. :)
Title: Re: Free Town Project
Post by: maxxoccupancy on April 26, 2009, 07:11:31 pm
Grafton also has a lot going on.  Anton, I think that you're twisting my statements around.  I also have done some civil disobedience, but it's more geared toward volunteerism.  If you get arrested while picking up trash at the park at night, it makes the cops look bad, because they don't have a leg to stand on.  While it's not illegal, I've been picking up trash on Folly Mill Road and Route 1 (including six more bags worth in the last two days).  People really notice, and I think that it makes a difference in the long run.

Dave is right to point to the accomplishments of local activism, and numerous people have questioned the effectiveness of noisy Keene activism.  I view Keene's political machinery as ten times worse than Seabrook, and worse than almost anything I've seen in the state.  Keene has never seen many proliberty candidates run for office, and they garner very few votes when they do.  That tells me something about the mentality of the folks, there.  Many statists out there just want to be "left alone" to a system I view as tyranny.  To suggest that Seabrook--with one third of the taxes, a pro business climate, liberty minded people, and stronger property rights protection--is as bad as Keene or even Manchester sounds crazy to me.  I don't make up statistics or numbers--I just accumulate facts and report what I see.  I have not ever misrepresented any fact or figure deliberately, and the figures I post are as accurate as I can give.

If you go to any town promoting total abolition of any government, you're going to find some folks who disagree.  The difference--to me--is that I can talk about political issues with the folks I meet every day and get a pretty good feel for the place.  Educating folks one at a time makes a difference over time.

Anton, I am one of just a few movers who actually told locals that I'm a member of the Free State Project.  Almost no one else I talked to would even admit to the fact, and thought that natives hated the effort.  I spent a lot of time promoting--and even getting locals involved in--the effort.

Seabrook has only been a project town for one year.  Hardly anyone here has heard about it, but the folks I've talked to so far are either for it, or not to strongly against it.  Many people in Manchester had never heard of the Free State Project, and I'm not sure if Keene activists are using the term when talking to locals, there.
Title: Re: Free Town Project
Post by: sj on April 26, 2009, 07:24:06 pm
Are you done yet?



Anton, I am one of just a few movers who actually told locals that I'm a member of the Free State Project.  Almost no one else I talked to would even admit to the fact, and thought that natives hated the effort.  I spent a lot of time promoting--and even getting locals involved in--the effort.

You have to talk about the Free State Project to get your neighbors involved in the fight for liberty?? Why?
Title: Re: Free Town Project
Post by: maxxoccupancy on April 26, 2009, 09:40:44 pm
It works.  If I say that I'm a member of NHLA, they are supportive, but not too interested because they figure that it's just another small activist group.  The Free State Project is better known to locals.  Many read about it five years ago when New Hampshire got picked.  I remember encountering the shouting protesters (many of whom were holding signs demanding a state income tax).

You don't HAVE to talk about the FSP with locals, but it lets people know that this is a friendly, helpful project.  It lets people know that there are more proliberty folks on their way.  You don't get people to become Friends of the FSP if you don't mention the FSP.
Title: Re: Free Town Project
Post by: erik7869 on May 01, 2009, 01:20:17 pm
It is nice to see the idea of a free town from scratch being discussed. Hopefully there are those who will soon realize building a town from scratch is the only way change is going to be potentially made.
 
Since the FSP is being tried within the framework of a democratic system, any efforts at selling the idea of freedom to opponents of freedom on the state level will be impossible until it can be demonstrated freedom can work at a municipal level otherwise. Until that is achieved, doing it at a state level is, at best, theory and speculation.
Title: Re: Free Town Project
Post by: maxxoccupancy on May 01, 2009, 02:48:55 pm
You make some good points.  Unfortunately, we've had to work at the State level to try and get tax policy, power, and decision making back down to the local level.  More to the point, every square foot of land is under the jurisdiction of some town, city, state, or the federal government.

There are a few off-the-grid efforts going on.  Greenfire in Barnstead is an off the grid effort, but the locals are not okay with it, even though folks there leave the locals alone.  There is also something similar going on in Grafton.
Title: Re: Free Town Project
Post by: erik7869 on May 01, 2009, 03:09:24 pm
Oh, I am aware of that Maxx. I would try it elsewhere. The advantages of building a town from scratch are worth trying somewhere else if people are serious about restoring freedom. It is impossible in NH.
Title: Re: Free Town Project
Post by: sj on May 01, 2009, 03:13:51 pm
Oh, I am aware of that Maxx. I would try it elsewhere. The advantages of building a town from scratch are worth trying somewhere else if people are serious about restoring freedom. It is impossible in NH.

If you want to build a town from scratch, you might try Paulville.com.  I can't see that effort actually working because, from my experience, people are never willing to sacrifice as much as they are willing to talk about doing so.
Title: Re: Free Town Project
Post by: erik7869 on May 01, 2009, 04:07:58 pm
Sj, I am aware of Paulville also. Interesting folks, and Texas is certainly better.

Undoubtedly, if an idea ever gets going it will aggravate government employees and any others whose livelihoods are threatened by freedom.

NH is a bad chose because one thing that is needed is ‘breathing room’ from NON-likeminded people. Not because isolation is good, but because there has to be enough space to get a footing – get freedom rolling so to speak - so local bigwig statists cannot use their local powers against whatever is done. I am afraid that is just not going to be done on the east coast. (This is different from population; it is how sparsely populated an area is. Paulville has a better chance to succeed then the FSP even if there are millions more people in the state of Texas than NH because they are still in middle of nowhere. No body in the rest of the state is really going to care what happens out there but if it takes off there is no locals there to stop them.)

The difference with Paulville is they have no desire to become a legally recognized city; they just want to escape society and be by themselves.

Which is fine if that is a person’s desire. Certainly not criticizing that idea.
Title: Re: Free Town Project
Post by: maxxoccupancy on May 01, 2009, 04:21:27 pm
I'm certainly not under any allusions about how much work will be involved.

I think that Grafton has a real shot at success as a Free Town Project, and I have no doubts that it would be worth moving to New Hampshire just to get involved in something like that.  Manchester, Portsmouth, Seabrook, Deerfield, and Nashua are all great towns to live in.  You have to live somewhere, so why not a great state like New Hampshire?  While you're living in a wonderful area, why not move to one with lots of like minded liberty activists... and a one with very low taxes, to boot.
Title: Re: Free Town Project
Post by: Russell Kanning on May 01, 2009, 04:55:17 pm
it  is  hard to find a place where no thugs claim it as  theirs .... or if you build something out of nothing, someone will want to take it from you or make you pay rent or wants a percentage of your income
since the entire US is a police state ... the important thing is to start moving forward wherever you are
Title: Re: Free Town Project
Post by: freedomroad on May 01, 2009, 05:36:07 pm
Sj, I am aware of Paulville also. Interesting folks, and Texas is certainly better.

Undoubtedly, if an idea ever gets going it will aggravate government employees and any others whose livelihoods are threatened by freedom.

NH is a bad chose because one thing that is needed is ‘breathing room’ from NON-likeminded people. Not because isolation is good, but because there has to be enough space to get a footing – get freedom rolling so to speak - so local bigwig statists cannot use their local powers against whatever is done. I am afraid that is just not going to be done on the east coast.

Having lived in Texas and NH, I'm having a hard time understanding what you are talking about.  NH has considerably more freedom than TX.  People in TX tend to want to control others more than people in NH do.  Both states have plenty of wide open spaces it's just that the government tend to be smaller in NH and they people are less busybody-like. 

You are never going to find the type of freedom in TX as people currently experience in Grafton, NH IMHO.
Title: Re: Free Town Project
Post by: Dave Mincin on May 01, 2009, 05:47:19 pm
Hey erick7863....How are things going in WY?  How is the freetown you have been talking about for 5-6 years doing?
Seems like all the information from out that way is classified?  It would be great to hear about your successes.

Just curious, have you moved yet, or just still talking about what a bad choice NH was. :)
Title: Re: Free Town Project
Post by: Russell Kanning on May 01, 2009, 06:27:42 pm
by the time some of these guys decide Dave Mincin will be the AG of NH and Maxx will be governor thinking about letting Keene secede ;D
Title: Re: Free Town Project
Post by: erik7869 on May 01, 2009, 07:16:02 pm
Keith,

I think the idea of the White Mountain Land Club for instance, would have worked had it been done in a better state.

The point was about Paulville, not all of Texas. All I said was people hundreds of miles away Dallas, Houston, etc., don’t care what happens in Paulville so there is a big advantage to that. Isn’t like that in NH, no way, no how!

But then, I am not at all advocating people go there.

NH is less regulated then Texas. Never said otherwise. Have also said it's counter productive to change people’s minds in what is the least regulated state. People make decisions at a margin, therefore, if NH taxes are already least then people are the least likely to support any real change. If it is argued NH is the most friendly to libertarian ideas then it only proves the growth of government can be held back with out your help. The idea becomes counterproductive (whatever the idea is. Saying, ‘Our goal is to get elected and make change,’ is no different than Obama saying the same exact thing.)

Dave,

Not sure if you are inviting me into a peeing contest or not. If so, I'll respectfully decline.

Not sure what you mean by Wyoming either? All I've said in the past Wyoming was better then NH; not that it is best and certainly not that I moved there as I don't live there. I have also maintained in the past as now that there is no point in moving anywhere until a concise idea is developed. If you’re saying there’s a virtue in being active, then by all means be active. But moving for the sake of a bad plan does not prove anything; nor does activity for activity’s sake. Saying, ‘Our goal is to get elected and make change,’ is no different than Obama saying the same thing. But developing a new system all together, now that would be something.

I noticed here a thread was started by someone who talked about a free town from scratch, so it is not just me who has the idea. But NH, and most places on the east coast, makes this impossible because it is just so crowded.

So again, not quite sure if you are looking for a peeing fight but I am sure you have more activism to do in NH then waste time on that.
Title: Re: Free Town Project
Post by: Keyser Soce on May 01, 2009, 09:18:48 pm
by the time some of these guys decide Dave Mincin will be the AG of NH and Maxx will be governor thinking about letting Keene secede ;D

 :) :D ;D
Title: Re: Free Town Project
Post by: maxxoccupancy on May 02, 2009, 02:06:36 pm
erik7869, with all due respect, we cannot fairly participate in peeing contests out here.  You just end up with peecicles, and it leaves a mess that doesn't go away until April (March in Seabrook).

As long as you're promoting liberty, you're good in my book.  I opted out of New Hampshire and placed it sixth, but I moved here, anyway, because this is where the activists are.

fundamentalsoffreedom.org is there for the western fsp folks.
Title: Re: Free Town Project
Post by: Dave Mincin on May 02, 2009, 04:02:30 pm
Joe, is that you?  It sure sounds like you, if so I hope you are doing well. :)

First to even consider a Freetown from scratch we would need a financial backer willing to buy a large portion of land on faith.
We don't have that.

Then we would need a financial backer to spent the money necessary to provide the basic infrastructure.
We don't have that.

It would need to be somewhere were people would be close enough to jobs to be viable.  Were do you suggest that is?

Then we would need someone who was knew enough about government to actually do the foot work necessary to get the
necessary state approvals.
We don't have that.

We have some folks here in NH who like the wilderness, and are sort of doing what you propose, but most need to have work,
raise families, and need to live were that can find jobs.

If you have the financial backers, and have a place to start your Freetown, by all means let us know.  I'm sure there are folks
who visit this forum who might be interested in your proposal.

Talk is cheap Joe...The folks who have moved to NH, are putting it on the line.  So your call!
Title: Re: Free Town Project
Post by: maxxoccupancy on May 02, 2009, 04:21:18 pm
There is another possibility.  We could just send a group around talking to local folks and seeing if it would be possible to form a new town out of an unused section of town.  We could target retirees and folks whose income does not depend on a commute.  There would already be houses and roads, there.  We wouldn't really need to build much, just get a town to allow a section to break off.

"Let those freestaters go over there," they'll say.

Just a thought.  I'm really happy with Seabrook, as it is, but there are lots of new movers who might give a town like that some thought, even effort.
Title: Re: Free Town Project
Post by: freedomroad on May 02, 2009, 09:23:47 pm
I noticed here a thread was started by someone who talked about a free town from scratch, so it is not just me who has the idea. But NH, and most places on the east coast, makes this impossible because it is just so crowded.

What I don't understand is why do you think NH is too crowded?  Almost no lives in northern NH.  Much of ME is almost without residents. 
Title: Re: Free Town Project
Post by: sj on May 02, 2009, 09:39:28 pm
I noticed here a thread was started by someone who talked about a free town from scratch, so it is not just me who has the idea. But NH, and most places on the east coast, makes this impossible because it is just so crowded.

What I don't understand is why do you think NH is too crowded?  Almost no lives in northern NH.  Much of ME is almost without residents. 

It's not just Northern NH that is open and sparsely populated.  Drive 15-20 minutes outside of Concord (the capital) and you are in open spaces.  As I said before, a friend of mine lives about 30 minutes outside of Concord and when I drove to her house, it was back behind 2 miles of dirt roads.  I love it  :)
Title: Re: Free Town Project
Post by: MK on May 02, 2009, 11:17:19 pm
If you don't want to start from scratch (i.e.; no FSPers living there) and you want to move to the freest "town/city" that exists NOW in NH (but at the same time is quite possibly the most difficult to find work - if you did your own thing, it would be ideal) due to the fact that it is a very small town, then I think the obvious choice would have to be Grafton (not for big city folks).

 
Title: Re: Free Town Project
Post by: Jerry on May 03, 2009, 09:13:32 am

I think the idea of the White Mountain Land Club for instance, would have worked had it been done in a better state.



Sorry, you're mistaken.  As one of the original members of the White Mountain Land Club I can assure you that the only problem we had with the state was a refusal to register the name as a business entity because a similar name had already been registered.
   
Our failure to attract enough people with enough cash to purchase the available properties is what did us in.

Many of the members have gone on to purchase property individually.  I now own 5 acres in the beautiful southern tropical region of Grafton. ;D
Title: Re: Free Town Project
Post by: Pat K on May 04, 2009, 07:07:13 pm

I think the idea of the White Mountain Land Club for instance, would have worked had it been done in a better state.



Sorry, you're mistaken.  As one of the original members of the White Mountain Land Club I can assure you that the only problem we had with the state was a refusal to register the name as a business entity because a similar name had already been registered.
   
Our failure to attract enough people with enough cash to purchase the available properties is what did us in.

Many of the members have gone on to purchase property individually.  I now own 5 acres in the beautiful southern tropical region of Grafton. ;D


Tropical in Grafton's  case means only 8 feet of snow. ;D
Title: Re: Free Town Project
Post by: Alex Free Market on May 05, 2009, 12:16:58 am
I'd love to see something like this up in Pittsburg.  Grafton sounds nifty and all, but I get the impression that it would just end up being a bunch of disparate people after the land was purchased, with no cohesive reason to hold them together.  People would go to work, as usual, and there is no overriding reason for people to even speak to each other.

In Pittsburg, the area is so remote, that I think it would foster a greater sense of community, if having a tight knit micro-town kind of thing was your goal.
Title: Re: Free Town Project
Post by: maxxoccupancy on May 05, 2009, 01:31:53 am
Up in New Hampshire, we have a lot of fun getting together for social events.  There is a lot of work on political activism, letters to the editors, lit drops, educating the public, and going up to the State House.  Nevertheless, there's also a lot of fun activities going on up here.  We've got a lot of successes to point to, and we've learned a lot about liberty activism in New Hampshire that would have taken decades had we attempted the same things on our own spread out.
Title: Re: Free Town Project
Post by: TEBON on May 05, 2009, 08:00:31 am
people might not know it, but there's no such thing as winter in Seabrook.  In fact, some places have sewers for their waste.  Not in Seabrook, in fact, the waste is magically turned into champagne and everyone stands around drinking from the special bubblers.  There are no sharks nor riptides in Seabrook, in fact, the beach is made of goldleaf and is as calm as the Gulf of Mexico.

Come to Seabrook!
Title: Re: Free Town Project
Post by: freedomroad on May 05, 2009, 11:14:06 am
people might not know it, but there's no such thing as winter in Seabrook.  In fact, some places have sewers for their waste.  Not in Seabrook, in fact, the waste is magically turned into champagne and everyone stands around drinking from the special bubblers.  There are no sharks nor riptides in Seabrook, in fact, the beach is made of goldleaf and is as calm as the Gulf of Mexico.

Come to Seabrook!

You do know about the plan to make money off waste in Seabrook right?  It seems like a really cool plan, too.
Title: Re: Free Town Project
Post by: TEBON on May 05, 2009, 12:12:18 pm
I heard they planned on making the waste into edible panties.  Is that what you're talking about?  I hope they make my size.
 :o

Title: Re: Free Town Project
Post by: freedomroad on May 05, 2009, 01:19:02 pm
I heard they planned on making the waste into edible panties.  Is that what you're talking about?  I hope they make my size.
 :o



No.  They have a serious plan which sounded pretty good about shipping waste from the area into Seabrook to be processed and turned into money.  It seemed pretty likely that is would happen.  Taxes will likely go down if it happens.  Most of the government officials and folks who follow them closely should know a bit about it.  Feel free to ask about it.  From what I understand, it is already happening in some parts of the nation and works great.
Title: Re: Free Town Project
Post by: maxxoccupancy on May 06, 2009, 04:15:16 am
Whatever.  The sewage treatment system for Seabrook that was giving residents some odor problems has been dealt with.  It turned out that some parts of the reactor were not getting enough oxygen, and that problem has been solved.  The bottom line is that the town may now be able to process waste from other towns (at a profit), possibly even taking high premium greases and fats that are otherwise hard to get rid of.  It the whole system works, Seabrook will make money off of a system that this private company has built at their own risk.
Title: Re: Free Town Project
Post by: lloydbob1 on May 06, 2009, 06:09:04 am
#102. Doesn't always smell like shit!
Title: Re: Free Town Project
Post by: TEBON on May 09, 2009, 05:06:07 am
so the private company built it, but Seabrook runs it?

I'm kinda leary about towns making money. . . because at some point the money stream will stop and then what will come of all the delicious programs that pop up in its place? 

I hope NO programs. . . and I'll join you in helping stop any outrageous spending "ideas"

The next town over, Salisbury, was going to have a waste disposal plant built in the woods on the Seabrook border.  The townspeople showed up in droves to oppose it even though it would have meant free trash pickup for all residents.  I guess people enjoy paying for their trash to be hauled away.  The company decided to drop their idea and move their business to another town. 

Seabrook recently has had a drinking water problem, the place I work has kept getting notices to not use the drinking water. . .heard anything?
Title: Re: Free Town Project
Post by: Mo250 on May 09, 2009, 10:01:34 am
if its a free trash pickup somebody else must be footing the bill.
Title: Re: Free Town Project
Post by: TEBON on May 09, 2009, 01:04:32 pm
yes, the company.

They OPTED to sort of bribe the town to give its holy allowance to permit them to build a plant within the confines of the town.  The town turned that offer down.

In my opinion, it started as ostracism. . . many townspeople said that they didn't want a neighbor like that (even a few miles away) so the company tried to sway public opinion and offer a free trash pickup to squelch the ostracism.  It didn't work too well.
Title: Re: Free Town Project
Post by: Mo250 on May 09, 2009, 02:39:42 pm
disappointing to say the least.
Title: Re: Free Town Project
Post by: maxxoccupancy on May 12, 2009, 01:14:44 am
PMC BioTec built a modern waste water treatment machine at the Seabrook waste water facility.  Because of the cold winter, the bacteria in the plant slowed down (some died off), and it takes a long time for them to get reestablished.  Because of the intermittent odor (partly marsh, partly the plant), the Selectmen are deciding whether to

I'm going to meet with the guy who operates the plant tomorrow--probably recommending to the Board that they privatize the whole plant (currently, it's just this one machine that's private), mainly to cut the town's liability.  It's true that the plant will probably start making money in a few months once they get the problems worked out, and when they can take other towns' waste products and high premium greases and fats, but the liability could be too much for the town.
Title: Re: Free Town Project
Post by: Mo250 on May 12, 2009, 11:01:36 am
they should definitely privatize it and .........on a totally different tangent are there any unique animal species in NH?. Like in NZ we have the kiwi.
Title: Re: Free Town Project
Post by: Luck on May 12, 2009, 01:53:56 pm
* I got this data from the Census Bureau; it shows county populations and where there's most and least growth.
COUNTY NAME   Pop2000   Pop_08   Chg00 2001   2002   2003   2004   2005   2006   2007   2008   Rank NChg %Chg
Hillsboro County   380843   402042   1518   5703   2618   1959   3379   2173   1809   1058   _982   1   2   6
Rockingh County   277357   297350   1353   4670   3625   1886   1580   2406   2303   _862   1308   2   1   3
Merrimac County   136223   148161   _415   1959   2807   1799   1476   1528   1334   _532   __88   3   7   7
Strafford County   112234   121914   _446   1792   1507   1059   1148   _795   1515   _715   _703   4   3   2
Grafton_ County   _81742   _85921   __54   __91   _615   _737   _797   _635   _515   _145   _590   5   4   1
Cheshire County   _73825   _77170   _163   _396   _631   _991   _539   _281   _434   __44   -134   6   9   9
Belknap_ County   _56325   _61281   _257   1262   1140   _976   _800   _215   _-13   _103   _216   7   5   4
Carroll__ County   _43666   _47408   _243   _312   _890   _613   _816   _145   _401   _163   _159   8   6   5
Sullivan_ County   _40458   _42591   __95   _313   _322   _541   _344   _238   _211   __54   __15   9   8   8
Coos___ County   _33112   _31971   __32   _-234   _-79   __-2   _-75   __50   _-215   _-244   -374 10 10 10
Title: Re: Free Town Project
Post by: TEBON on May 20, 2009, 04:58:48 am
PMC BioTec built a modern waste water treatment machine at the Seabrook waste water facility.  Because of the cold winter, the bacteria in the plant slowed down (some died off), and it takes a long time for them to get reestablished.  Because of the intermittent odor (partly marsh, partly the plant), the Selectmen are deciding whether to

I'm going to meet with the guy who operates the plant tomorrow--probably recommending to the Board that they privatize the whole plant (currently, it's just this one machine that's private), mainly to cut the town's liability.  It's true that the plant will probably start making money in a few months once they get the problems worked out, and when they can take other towns' waste products and high premium greases and fats, but the liability could be too much for the town.

that's awesome Maxx!  That would be great if they would do that. :)
Title: Re: Free Town Project
Post by: Luck on May 24, 2009, 09:33:36 am
* I'm a few weeks late noticing this at MerrimackValleyPorcupines forum, but maybe the plan to thwart Free Staters below can provide inspiration for something. One of the forum members said, "It's really starting to sound like "trouble in River City," or the petition to ban dihydrogen monoxide". I concur.

Dear Town Officials:
 
As you may know, Free Staters have now moved into at least 17 towns in New Hampshire, yours being one of them. Only now is their extremist agenda receiving the scrutiny it deserves.
The following is a draft plan I have developed for the town I live in, Westmoreland. I felt I should share it with other towns as well.
 
Sincerely,
 
Russ Martens
 
A 10-Step Plan to Defeat the Agenda of the Free Staters
 
The agenda of the Free Staters is not to bring more liberty, more freedom and smaller government to New Hampshire. Those are simply the talking points to mask the real agenda: to eliminate all tax-funded social programs (public education, Social Security, Medicare, etc.) and let the “free market” run unfettered by eliminating zoning and planning ordinances, building inspectors and safety and environmental laws.
The true agenda is carefully mapped out in the words of the founder of the Free State Project, Jason Sorens, whose research is funded by a front group for large corporations, the Mercatus Center:
“Once we've taken over the state government, we can slash state and local budgets, which make up a sizeable proportion of the tax and regulatory burden we face every day. Furthermore, we can eliminate substantial federal interference by refusing to take highway funds and the strings attached to them. Once we've accomplished these things, we can bargain with the national government over reducing the role of the national government in our state. We can use the threat of secession as leverage to do this.” [1]
“The Free State Project is related to market-preserving federalism in two different ways. First, New Hampshire is poised to benefit if the United States returns to a true model of market-preserving federalism. One example is Social Security. New Hampshire could do much better if it were taking care of its own Social Security program because its residents pay much more in Social Security taxes than they receive back in benefits…The Free State Project can also contribute to market-preserving federalism and its beneficial workings in another way. Once New Hampshire moves dramatically in a free market direction, we are going to continue to attract individuals and businesses from other states. And other states are going to have to reform their own laws in order to avoid losing their tax base to our state.” [2]
After the Free Staters have taken over, Mr. Sorens expounds on how he would control who moves to the state in the future: “I am open to the suggestion that immigration laws against non-libertarians are justifiable in a libertarian society that still has a majority-rules government. The reason is that non-libertarians would immediately begin violating people's rights by voting for government programs. Keeping them from establishing residence would be a kind of self-defense. Third, and perhaps the most viable solution, we can implement tight and explicit constitutional rules that prevent majorities from bringing back bad laws.” [3]
With the true agenda in mind and with a comprehensive understanding of the tactics used by the Free Staters against Grafton and other towns, below is the draft document for resident input and discussion for defeating the Free Staters’ agenda here in Westmoreland. It is simultaneously being submitted as a working draft to town officials throughout New Hampshire. (Each town, of course, should submit it for resident input and legal review by their own Town Attorney.)
 
Step 1: Free Staters are relying on voter apathy and a low voter turnout in our Town. We commit to personally calling ten of our neighbors and getting their commitment to vote in each election.
Step 2: Free Staters frequently keep their agenda and association with the Free State Project hidden. Town residents will henceforth sponsor a “Meet the Candidates” event for all local and state elections. The event will be tape recorded and transcribed. Each candidate’s answers on where they stand on public education, planning and zoning laws, and tax-supported social welfare programs will be released to the press prior to the election.
 
Step 3: Free Staters frequently place themselves in nomination for local positions where they can run unopposed. It now behooves every town resident who has the time to run and fulfill the duties for a local office to do so.
 
Step 4: Free State discussion forums and chat rooms indicate that non residents have shown up for Town Meetings. Because voice vote occurs on many warrant articles, we now need to credential voters BEFORE they gain access to the room where voting occurs. Non residents with a legitimate basis for being present, e.g., the press or town attorney, will sit in a specially designated section apart from voters.
 
Step 5: Under RSA 654:1 a person entitled to vote in New Hampshire must meet the following test: “An inhabitant's domicile for voting purposes is that one place where a person, more than any other place, has established a physical presence and manifests an intent to maintain a single continuous presence for domestic, social, and civil purposes relevant to participating in democratic self-government.” [Emphasis added.] This requirement is not being met in some instances by Free Staters and their supporters who are, nonetheless, voting. This requires the establishment of a non-partisan community taskforce to review the Voter Checklist and report any illegalities that have taken place.
 
Step 6: To send a bold message to those who might be tempted to engage in voter fraud in the future, long-term community residents will be needed as Poll Watchers for each and every election.
 
Step 7: Since the Planning and Zoning Boards are the early targets of the Free Staters, residents need to keep a watchful eye on our land use commissions. We ask every resident to attend at least one of the following meetings per month:
Conservation Commission (first Tuesday of the month, Town Hall, 7:00 PM);
Planning Commission (second Tuesday of the month, Town Hall, 7:30 PM);
Zoning Board (fourth Wednesday of the month, only meets if there is a request for a Variance or Special Exception, Town Hall, 7:30 PM; a legal notice appears in the Keene Sentinel if the Zoning Board plans to meet);
Selectmen’s Meeting (first and third Thursday of each month, Town Hall, 7:00 PM)
Step 8: The Selectmen must provide the residents of the Town with a set of minutes that comply with RSA 91-A (“Right-to-Know” law). For example, future minutes must henceforth specifically state the exemption under which the Selectmen are calling for a nonpublic session. Overall, minutes must contain enough detail to sufficiently capture the essence of the discussions. Going forward, Town residents must demand and receive greater transparency in the running of the Town.
RSA 91-A:3 “…Any motion to enter nonpublic session shall state on its face the specific exemption under paragraph II which is relied upon as foundation for the nonpublic session. The vote on any such motion shall be by roll call, and shall require the affirmative vote of the majority of members present.”
How does this relate to Free Staters? A Free Stater attempted to sue and potentially intimidate an elected official of Westmoreland. We, the voters and taxpayers, were left in the dark on this issue.
 
Step 9: Standard tactics used by Free Staters to silence their opponents are the following: call their opponents any one of the following names: commies, lunatics, cowards, socialists, character assassins, perpetrators of a smear campaign. In other words, in their mind, it’s okay for extremists to masquerade as mainstream residents while attempting to take over government, but if you expose them, you’re the lunatic. In Grafton, this web site was established to intimidate local residents: http://fnhp.com/thelist/ Anyone who is subjected to retaliation by the Free Staters should promptly document the details in writing and send the report via email to this email address along with your name and address. I, along with individuals in other towns, will be making filings as necessary with the New Hampshire State Attorney General’s office.
 
Step 10: Free Staters in Grafton, New Hampshire have been buying up property under the names of Limited Liability Companies (LLCs), making it impossible to determine the true beneficial owner. We propose a public hearing on the question of a new ordinance to immediately require all property buyers in our Town to disclose the true owner of the property if different from the name(s) on the business entity buying the property.
 
[1] Taking Over State Government
http://www.thebirdman.org/Index/Others/Others-Doc-Government&Politics/+Doc-Government&Politics-Tracking&AvoidingTyranny/LibertarianStateTakeover.htm
 
[2] Sorens Speaking at American Enterprise Institute Event
 http://www.aei.org/events/filter.all,eventID.754/transcript.asp
 
[3] No Liberty for the Majority
http://web.archive.org/web/20010821004338/www.webleyweb.com/tle/libe133-20010806-02.html
Title: Re: Free Town Project
Post by: Alex Free Market on May 24, 2009, 03:33:37 pm

Step 10: Free Staters in Grafton, New Hampshire have been buying up property under the names of Limited Liability Companies (LLCs), making it impossible to determine the true beneficial owner.

We propose a public hearing on the question of a new ordinance to immediately require all property buyers in our Town to disclose the true owner of the property if different from the name(s) on the business entity buying the property.


This is actually something I have been wanting to do for privacy reasons, but I don't really know much about these things.

If I bought a property under the name of a Limited Liability Corporation, couldn't they just do another search of records to see who's names are filed as the owners of the LLC?   I thought business filing records were public information, also?

I read something about how New Mexico allows people to file LLC's with no names attached.... but I don't see how that's possible... How could government let you file to open a corporation, without them knowing who you are?  The government always seems to want to know who you are. 

In any case, that seems like a rather big hassle.... having to set up a shell LLC out of New Mexico.. just to gain a bit of privacy, assuming this is how some of the Grafton guys are doing it.

Title: Re: Free Town Project
Post by: rossby on May 24, 2009, 04:42:58 pm
If I bought a property under the name of a Limited Liability Corporation, couldn't they just get rather easily just do another search of records, and see who's names are filed as the owners of the LLC?   I thought business filing records were public information, also?

The owner of an LLC isn't necessarily the same person who formed it. And it doesn't have to be a human being either. Depending on how complex the planning was, it can be nearly impossible to know who is actually running a LLC. Particularly if a state doesn't require a filing for a Change in Beneficial Ownership or an Annual Report--or whatever. In day-to-day activities, state often don't care who is running an LLC: they just want the initial filing fee and any annual fees and taxes. Other than that, they don't seem to particularly care what you use your LLC for... unless you're breaking some law of course...
Title: Re: Free Town Project
Post by: D. Stewart on May 24, 2009, 07:08:54 pm
re. ownership by LLC...

The problem is that, unless you plan on eschewing such things as voting, registering a vehicle in your name (although you can use a LLC for this too), a postal address and/or deliveries, and a terrestrial phone line, it will rapidly become rather difficult to maintain the anonymity.  Most of us wish to do one or more of the above, so the potential benefits rapidly become diluted and, in conjunction with one other consideration, I decided it was way more hassle than it was worth.  The other consideration being that NH treats individuals very differently than businesses in a number of regards, taxation being one, and I couldn't get a clear picture of what the various impacts might be to structuring a deed this way.  I wondered, at the time that I was contemplating this, whether agricultural income and capital gains might then be considered business profits (for state purposes), even though for feds you may pass-through and file individually.  If homestead rules ever get set in place, that again might prompt different treatment.

Just a few thoughts for you to consider before treading this path...
Title: Re: Free Town Project
Post by: Alex Free Market on May 24, 2009, 07:48:23 pm

re. ownership by LLC...

The problem is that, unless you plan on eschewing such things as voting, registering a vehicle in your name (although you can use a LLC for this too), a postal address and/or deliveries, and a terrestrial phone line, it will rapidly become rather difficult to maintain the anonymity. 


There is supposed to be a fairly good book on this topic that came out a few years ago, "How to Be Invisible: The Essential Guide to Protecting Your Personal Privacy, Your Assets, and Your Life," by J.J. Luna.

http://www.amazon.com/How-Be-Invisible-Essential-Protecting/dp/0312319061/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1243211985&sr=1-1 (http://www.amazon.com/How-Be-Invisible-Essential-Protecting/dp/0312319061/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1243211985&sr=1-1)


Got good reviews, and it covers the LLC thing a bit, and also has information on how to use addresses where you receive mail at, that you don't really live at, so as to provide a bit of additional "insulation" between your name, versus where you actually live.

The number one piece of advice from the book, supposedly, is that you should never use your actual residence on any forms, licenses or permits.... like drivers licenses and registrations, etc... There needs to supposedly be a disconnect between where you actually live, versus your name and residence as it is listed on documents like a drivers license.  This provides marginal protection, certainly not complete privacy by any means, but the authors premise is supposedly that that is the absolute minimum thing you need to do.
Title: Re: Free Town Project
Post by: Russell Kanning on May 25, 2009, 12:13:45 pm
we might have jj luna hidden in grafton ... but how would anyone know
Title: Re: Free Town Project
Post by: rossby on May 25, 2009, 04:49:28 pm
re. ownership by LLC...

The problem is that, unless you plan on eschewing such things as voting, registering a vehicle in your name (although you can use a LLC for this too), a postal address and/or deliveries, and a terrestrial phone line, it will rapidly become rather difficult to maintain the anonymity.

Each point there is relatively easy to fix ;)
Title: Re: Free Town Project
Post by: Luck on May 26, 2009, 02:44:42 pm
Each point there is relatively easy to fix.
* Where's a good place to find info on all those fixes?
Title: Salvation via Circle Cities
Post by: Luck on May 26, 2009, 03:19:24 pm
* This is what Bob and I discussed a few months ago.
* Bob said his Circle Cities idea could save civilization, that's why the title of this.
* Here's more on Bob's idea since our chatroom discussion. My main interest in this at present is potential win-win dialog with the rich. Here's our recent exchange. My part is questions; his is answers.
* Can you fill in the gaps here in your plan from the chatroom the other day?
Parts of Bob's Plan:
- create local business groups, that empower people
- start 24-hr free food vegan cafes where people can meet
- Phase one: get fully funded groups
- Phase two: what? building structures, circle cities?
- In circle cities [?] there's no rat race and no Money needed
- The super rich believe we wish them harm, the result of money inequality
- The rich need a place where they feel safe to be themselves
- start a global wealth creating project to create millions of jobs
- the structures themselves are wealth
Questions
* 1. How do we create local business groups?
I'm calling for volunteers to help start things off in my own area as a test bed. I have one volunteer but I need about twenty-five. I have money and knowledge about making money and acquiring properties on mortgages. Also, businesses can be bought and local money used to help in the purchase. You will need far more details but this email will need to be short and to the point.
* 2. How would these business groups empower members?
To be in business for yourself is empowering. It can also be very difficult, that is the reason for a collective approach with shared resources including labour.
* 3. How do we get free food for the free food cafes?
Ideally we grow plenty of food and deliver it to the free-food cafe(s) where the members (who helped grow the food) get to eat it, and if we grow enough we can also feed non-members. On top of this we can ask for free food from the public who throw away a lot of eatable food. When I ran a free-shop I got all my goods this way.
* 4. What entices people to meet there?
That something different and exciting is happening, at last, and they want to find out more and maybe be a part of it and benefit from it.
* 5. What's the purpose in having them meet there?
To discuss our collective plans over a snack or full meal before going off to put ideas into practice, in the knowledge that we are not alone.
* 6. How do the business groups get funded in phase one?
Essentially self funded. Some of us have some liquidity (cash and property etc) to input, and there are those who will lend money to good causes or invest in them to get a return.
* 7. Is phase two to build the circle city structures?
That's correct.
* 8. What's the role of the business groups in phase 1 & 2?
In phase one the business groups are to pull together local wealth and talent into a coherent body that functions to benefit the members and the public. The main business of phase two is to build more circle cities and the underground transport system that joins the circle cities to each other and to the old society (for mutual advantage).
* 9. What does circle city mean?
10. What are the circle city structures like?
Strictly speaking a circle city is an unconventional building for an unconventional purpose. It is a building that though only about two hundred feet wide is long enough to encircle the two thousand acres of cropland needed to feed the ten thousand occupants. That is to say, a little over six mile around the circumference of a two mile diameter circle of land. This protects the land from rats and rabbits and so on and also allows waste heat to be used to warm the soil in cooler countries, and waste water in drier countries so that we get maximum crops from minimum land.
* 11. What are the structures for?
For people to live their lives in and near. Inside a circle city will be like the best of our present buildings, like a continuous atrium with fruiting creepers growing up the trellis to keep off the harsh sun and make it seem like you are not in a building at all. And for those who like the outdoors they are right there outside within easy reach.
* 12. Are the circle cities the safe place for the rich?
13. What makes them safe?
The circle cities will be very safe for rich and poor alike. When you move into a circle city you agree to certain rules, such as no tobacco or drugs or drunkenness, and no violence, and no forcing yourself on others the way the paparazzi do or salesmen and scam artists.
* 14. What makes the rich believe we wish them harm?
They are vulnerable because of their wealth. It only takes one person or small group to kidnap a rich person or their child or even their whole family for ransom. That could happen in a circle city but it's far less likely.
* 15. What kind of harm do they suppose we wish them?
I'm sure you and I don't wish them harm. 99+% of people are okay, it's the less than one percent who succumb to greed and who probably had a violent upbringing that we all have to fear. Gated communities are proving very popular. This takes that concept further.
* 16. What were you saying is the result of money inequality?
Envy, for a start. It's only natural. Any poor person will envy the rich and want to be rich. Some of the poorest people on earth will be able to get work building circle cities or in industries serving the construction programme. Those that build them will also get to live in them as part of the deal.
* 17. How do the rich experience the rat race?
Maybe the idle rich don't, but most rich are hard working in the rat race, at the cutting edge of it and have to deal with life's vicissitudes.
* 18. How do the circle cities function without money?
If they work at all it will be through collective, voluntary co-operation. That is why phase one is so important, to develop that side of people before we build circle cities. And they are not so much living without money but living without money worries. Each circle city will trade with the outside world in a variety of ways, and goods will be bought for the members and be freely available to them.
* 19. Is the wealth-creating project the building of the circle city structures?
This will be the major wealth creation project along with retro-fitting existing structures to make them more eco-friendly and efficient.
* 20. Who pays the builders?
The circle city corporation does. And they get their money from a variety of sources including but not exclusively from those who wish to live there.
* 21. How does this plan achieve world peace & freedom?
Partly by removing poverty around the world. Of course, one circle city being built in one country can have little effect, that would be just a start. From that and the thousands of local phase one groups we will need to encourage the whole world to get involved so everyone can benefit. As the big engine phase two, circle cities, they will need to be built in increasing numbers. As the world gears itself up for this long boom and takes us all out of recession, away from boom and bust we will be able to really believe lasting peace and prosperity and justice are all possible. That'll be a first. At present there seems to be a perception that there simply isn't enough of everything to go around. The aim is to show this is not the case. There is enough for our needs, but not our greed. There is enough land on which to grow our food as well as trees for fuel after fossil fuels are gone. There's enough rain and sun and wind and waves and tides, if we harness them correctly not wastefully.
Title: Re: Free Town Project
Post by: Luck on May 26, 2009, 08:49:03 pm
* Just replace the canals with interior parks and gardens, put the city walls along the outside, and have a maglev track along one wall or underground.
* Which NH town is best suited to a circle city perimeter?
* Where are some rich folks who'd like to help build a Libertarian circle city or town?
(http://www.atlantisbolivia.org/lostcityofatlantis_files/movingship.gif)
* By the way, Bob's in the UK, Swansea, Wales to be more precise.
Title: Re: Free Town Project
Post by: adirondeau on May 26, 2009, 09:36:59 pm
Hello, I'm new to this site. I just recently found out about the free stat project and joined. I have been reading threads trying to get a feel for the thinking here. I have one question on the concept of circle cities. How does this fit in to Libertarian thinking? It seams as though you pay to be a member. food is grown and given to the members? I am not sure I completely understood the concept as the first thing that came to mind was socialism.
Title: Re: Free Town Project
Post by: lloydbob1 on May 27, 2009, 06:01:07 am
we might have jj luna hidden in grafton ... but how would anyone know

I saw him (her?) on the porch at the Grafton (don't trip over the dog) Mall!
Title: Re: Free Town Project
Post by: sj on May 27, 2009, 09:31:16 am
Hello, I'm new to this site. I just recently found out about the free stat project and joined. I have been reading threads trying to get a feel for the thinking here. I have one question on the concept of circle cities. How does this fit in to Libertarian thinking? It seams as though you pay to be a member. food is grown and given to the members? I am not sure I completely understood the concept as the first thing that came to mind was socialism.

Welcome!

This is the first time I've ever seen "circle cities" brought up on the forums.  I think this is just one person throwing some ideas around.
Title: Re: Free Town Project
Post by: Russell Kanning on May 27, 2009, 03:20:06 pm
that looks like a flatlander city ... it will have to a slightly different model in backwoods NH :)

jj luna is a guy who gets mail at my house
Title: Re: Free Town Project
Post by: Luck on May 27, 2009, 07:41:30 pm
* The image of the Circle City above is actually something I found on the internet that's supposed to be the mythical island of Atlantis. I couldn't find much of anything better.
* Seth is right. Just throwing ideas around. Circle Cities is Bob's idea. He's a realtor or something in Wales in the UK. I started a peace group this winter and Bob suggested that his Circle City idea could promote world peace. You can put labels on the idea if you like, but I don't think money is an essential ingredient of Libertarianism. Money seems like a big hassle most of the time, although it gives people a sense of how much they contribute to society, if the money doesn't involve exchanges that hamper society.
* Some of Bob's ideas make a lot of sense, and I'd like to combine some of them with the recent LRC article about making a free town, off the grid, i.e. with private roads, private non-authoritarian police etc.
* I started discussing Bob's Circle Cities with a few other folks and we're thinking about using Second Life or something similar as a place to build a city virtually, before trying reality. We welcome anyone else who's technical or creative [and peace-loving].
Title: Re: Free Town Project
Post by: adirondeau on May 28, 2009, 04:36:54 pm
I wasn't trying to be negative, just that was my first thought. I am not a fan of currency, but it is a useful tool instead of bartering. My biggest hesitation is I am very against free loading and believe that is one of the major downfalls in today's society. I am a "Leave me alone and I'll leave you alone" type person, although I am always willing to help a friend. Which brings me to another point. I am an electromechanical engineer, so the idea of the actual city and being self reliant is very appealing. You should check out

http://www.solarhouse.com/

The live in Maine, and use passive and active solar for heating and photovoltaics for electricity. Combine it with...

http://www.undergroundhomes.com/news1.html

Use some grey water systems and I think you're all set
Title: Re: Free Town Project
Post by: Russell Kanning on May 28, 2009, 05:46:16 pm
you could try your own version in nh with hills, walls, and moats .... cool bridges over creeks or buy an island on a lake or on the ocean and build your town
Title: Re: Free Town Project
Post by: MTPorcupine3 on May 28, 2009, 08:29:46 pm
* Just replace the canals with interior parks and gardens, put the city walls along the outside, and have a maglev track along one wall or underground.
* Which NH town is best suited to a circle city perimeter?
* Where are some rich folks who'd like to help build a Libertarian circle city or town?
(http://www.atlantisbolivia.org/lostcityofatlantis_files/movingship.gif)
* By the way, Bob's in the UK, Swansea, Wales to be more precise.


How about one of the Smutty Shoals Islands? The moat part is covered.
Title: Re: Free Town Project
Post by: D. Stewart on May 29, 2009, 09:10:26 am
re. ownership by LLC...

The problem is that, unless you plan on eschewing such things as voting, registering a vehicle in your name (although you can use a LLC for this too), a postal address and/or deliveries, and a terrestrial phone line, it will rapidly become rather difficult to maintain the anonymity.

Each point there is relatively easy to fix ;)

Up to a point I agree with you.  However I can see no valid (and reasonably legal) way of fixing the voting thing, unless by maintaining a second (real) address in the same ward, which doesn't really serve to hide you, since you are identified as being in the same town as you really live, not on the other side of the state/country/world.
Title: Re: Free Town Project
Post by: Lumpy on December 31, 2010, 10:39:52 am
I don't know Sorens personally and I'm wondering what, for "his project" is he not here yet?  I don't really see any reasonable excuse.  Many people have come with little or nothing and in some cases less, then made something for the market.  I don't mean to ruffle feathers but so be it.  I want to know.  Not that he should be fitting into any mold.  Maybe I will just ask him himself.  For what it's worth, until then, I'm putting it out there.
Title: Re: Free Town Project
Post by: WendellBerry on December 31, 2010, 12:31:24 pm
I don't know Sorens personally and I'm wondering what, for "his project" is he not here yet?  I don't really see any reasonable excuse.  Many people have come with little or nothing and in some cases less, then made something for the market.  I don't mean to ruffle feathers but so be it.  I want to know.  Not that he should be fitting into any mold.  Maybe I will just ask him himself.  For what it's worth, until then, I'm putting it out there.

He works in the Political Science program at the State University of NY in Buffalo

http://www.polsci.buffalo.edu/faculty_staff/sorens/ (http://www.polsci.buffalo.edu/faculty_staff/sorens/)
Title: Re: Free Town Project
Post by: Dreepa on January 01, 2011, 08:45:10 am
I don't know Sorens personally and I'm wondering what, for "his project" is he not here yet?  I don't really see any reasonable excuse.  Many people have come with little or nothing and in some cases less, then made something for the market.  I don't mean to ruffle feathers but so be it.  I want to know.  Not that he should be fitting into any mold.  Maybe I will just ask him himself.  For what it's worth, until then, I'm putting it out there.

He did move here and then he moved out.
Many people have done so.

In fact technically you could say that NO ONE is obligated to move until 20k signers are hit.
Title: Re: Free Town Project
Post by: freedomroad on January 01, 2011, 12:24:46 pm
In fact technically you could say that NO ONE is obligated to move until 20k signers are hit.

Except for the more recent sign-ups that set different triggers?
Title: Re: Free Town Project
Post by: Lumpy on January 02, 2011, 04:09:37 pm
It seems odd to me that there are so many making such deep investments yet no sign of the guy who "put the FSP together".  (I use the word "investment" as opposed to "sacrifice" as many are making sacrifices, even from jails and other awful places, not necessarily geographical).
Title: Re: Free Town Project
Post by: Dave Mincin on January 02, 2011, 04:48:23 pm
I don't know Sorens personally and I'm wondering what, for "his project" is he not here yet?  I don't really see any reasonable excuse.  Many people have come with little or nothing and in some cases less, then made something for the market.  I don't mean to ruffle feathers but so be it.  I want to know.  Not that he should be fitting into any mold.  Maybe I will just ask him himself.  For what it's worth, until then, I'm putting it out there.

He did move here and then he moved out.
Many people have done so.

In fact technically you could say that NO ONE is obligated to move until 20k signers are hit.

Dreepa...Have to give a slight correction. :)  Jason, and Mary never moved here.  They did come up a while back and live here for a few months.  Jason took off a semester from the University.

The pledge says, you are pledged to move when we have 20,000 folks signed on, period!

For you newer folks who don't know the history of this organization.  Jason wrote the article that spun the FSP, he worked tirelessly in the early years to help take the FSP, from an idea to real, and folks like me, and many others have actually moved to NH to take up the fight. 

Jason has a decent gig in Western NY, and wife, and a brand new baby.  Heck, the dude has a life too!

I know Jason and Mary both, and know their thoughts on the FSP, and how important is to them.  I know for certain they will honor the pledge!

I see the FSP as something that if we really believe in the folks, and freedom, we must follow our convictions.

So, bottom line....If Jason and Mary aren't here, it really has no meaning.  Honoring your pledge does, and If you want to show up a little early....That's even better! ;D

Just my 2 cents.
Title: Re: Free Town Project
Post by: creaganlios on January 02, 2011, 08:41:32 pm
I must disagree. 

I think Jason's refusal to move here is the single biggest symbolic black spot on the entire FSP. 

Many people sacrificed many of the comforts of their life...and "Do as a I say, not as I do" leaves a very bad taste in my mouth.   Why should anyone else take it seriously if its founder/dreamcaster doesnt take it seriously enough to move himself?

Just my .02
Title: Re: Free Town Project
Post by: artienewport on January 02, 2011, 09:47:47 pm
It was a huge mistake of people to keep him as such a demigod figure in the organization for so long to begin with.
Title: Re: Free Town Project
Post by: freedomroad on January 02, 2011, 10:54:40 pm
It was a huge mistake of people to keep him as such a demigod figure in the organization for so long to begin with.

Those people that took him or anyone as a demigod made a mistake.  He is just a person.  Anyway, he did visit for months and helped get someone elected that is know in the NH House of Reps leadership.  He continues to come back, give money to the FSP, promote NH and spend money in NH.  He is good people and may move here some day yet.
Title: Re: Free Town Project
Post by: creaganlios on January 03, 2011, 07:54:23 am
He doesnt believe in Freedom enough to give up creature comforts...and that is the achille's heel of the libertarian approach in any society. That is not a criticism of Jason...it is a commentary on the natural conservatism of societies in general, including societies that support their own slavery under statism.

"For what more oft, in nations grown corrupt, than to prefer bondage to liberty...bondage with ease than strenuous liberty." - John Milton, in Samson Agonistes

"For most men would rather protect the possibility of becoming rich, then face the reality of being poor...and that is why they will follow us - to the Right"[/i] - spoken by John Dickinson, in 1776
Title: Re: Free Town Project
Post by: Lumpy on January 06, 2011, 06:01:04 pm
"He doesnt believe in Freedom enough to give up creature comforts...and that is the achille's heel of the libertarian approach in any society. That is not a criticism of Jason...it is a commentary on the natural conservatism of societies in general, including societies that support their own slavery under statism."

Kinda too late doncha think?  Everyone everywhere won't have any "liberty" left.
Title: Re: Free Town Project
Post by: sj on February 28, 2011, 12:22:18 pm
I don't know Sorens personally and I'm wondering what, for "his project" is he not here yet?  I don't really see any reasonable excuse.  Many people have come with little or nothing and in some cases less, then made something for the market.  I don't mean to ruffle feathers but so be it.  I want to know.  Not that he should be fitting into any mold.  Maybe I will just ask him himself.  For what it's worth, until then, I'm putting it out there.

It's not the right time for him and his family.  He's building a career.  He'll be more effective for liberty if he lays the groundwork first.  He and Mary are wonderful people and I hope to have them as neighbors soon. 

Have some come to NH without the preparation Jason is making?  Yes, and some have had to leave afterwards because they couldn't financially support themselves.  Plus, most don't have a career path that is as restrictive as academia. 

People should focus on their own lives and not look to others.  Less drama that way.
Title: Re: Free Town Project
Post by: walrus von zeppelin on March 03, 2011, 04:12:43 pm
As an outsider perspective to the Free State Project regarding this I have almost no idea about who that guy is except that he wrote something and thus his not being in New Hampshire is inconsequential to me.

It is probably more of a big deal for those with a longer history with the FSP than the new blood you need to reach 20k.
Title: Re: Free Town Project
Post by: rossby on March 03, 2011, 04:20:13 pm
The Project is to move 20,000 people within 5 years of getting 20,000 people to agree.

Do we have 20,000 people yet?

Then why are we still talking about this?
Title: Re: Free Town Project
Post by: Dreepa on March 03, 2011, 05:55:01 pm
As an outsider perspective to the Free State Project regarding this I have almost no idea about who that guy is except that he wrote something and thus his not being in New Hampshire is inconsequential to me.

It is probably more of a big deal for those with a longer history with the FSP than the new blood you need to reach 20k.

bingo!
Title: Re: Free Town Project
Post by: Luck on May 23, 2011, 07:47:00 pm
Watch out for special finance districts etc coming to NH, like everywhere else, apparently!

Salt Lake Valley Law Enforcement Service Area (SLVLESA)
http://realitybloger.wordpress.com/2011/05/22/the-sheriff-who-sold-his-county/ (http://realitybloger.wordpress.com/2011/05/22/the-sheriff-who-sold-his-county/)

From the SLVLESA website, under the “About the SLVLESA” section, it states:
Mission - The sole purpose of the Salt Lake Valley Law Enforcement Service Area (SLVLESA) is to provide funding for police services in the unincorporated areas of Salt Lake County. The SLVLESA does not provide police service. Instead, it forwards revenues to the Unified Police Department (UPD), which provides law enforcement services to the unincorporated County. The UPD is responsible for all police operations.
- Leadership - The SLVLESA was created by unanimous vote of the Salt Lake County Council (not the voting public). The Council appointed Jim Bradley, Michael Jensen, and Mayor Peter Corroon to serve as the service area trustees. Councilman Bradley serves as the chair.
** This SLVLESA Special Financing District and its self-appointed council, being created without the consent or approval of any of the home or business owners within these incorporated or unincorporated sections of the county, literally, unconstitutionally, and unabashedly forced these private land, home, and business owners to become a part of this Special Financing District.
** To be clear, the county council and county mayor created this 4-person council (a special district within the main UPD private corporation), which has no law enforcement authority and does not provide police services, and appointed themselves as its trustees and chairman. They created a fake corporate city (a corporate veil), making themselves the administrators (slave-masters). This would be no different than a king making your unincorporated town or village a part of his kingdom, and then assigning a council (an oligarchy) and tax collectors (city police) to force you to pay for his majesty’s protection.

The “NBS” website at (nbsgov.com) – which is the out of state, private, non-governmental company handling Salt Lake County’s SLVLESA – states that:
- Special Financing Districts (“SFD’s”) include a wide variety of assessment-based, special tax, and other types of parcel charges such as:
    Assessment Districts
    Business Improvement Districts (BID)
    Community Facilities Districts (CFD)
    Connection Fee Financing
    Fire and Other Special Purpose Taxes
    Local Improvement Districts (LID)
    Maintenance Districts
    Miscellaneous Charges
    Parcel Loans
    Special Tax Districts
** Excerpted from a “William Blair & Company” brochure entitled “Special Tax District Financing – A Guide to Funding Infrastructure Through Land-Secured Bonds”, this Chicago company might give us some insight as to what is actually happening in districts across the country like the SLVLESA:
- This article sets out the basic concepts underlying land-secured municipal finance and how it can be used effectively by municipalities, home builders, and developers.
- Land-secured bonds are used to finance the basic public infrastructure required for both new development and existing communities. Most often, these bonds are issued through-or for the benefit of-special tax districts. The bonds generally are non-rated and exempt from federal income taxes…
** Now, I want you to pay special attention to this next part. For this above all else reveals the true nature of your private, corporate municipal “government”. And it proves without a doubt that you, the people, are not the owner of your land, your home, or your property.
- The brochure continues:
- Owners of properties that benefit from the bond-funded infrastructure agree to a lien on their homes (or commercial property) that is paid off over time through an annual special tax or assessment. That tax or assessment is used to pay debt service on the bonds, which are secured further by the underlying taxed or assessed property as collateral. The special tax or assessment constitutes a senior lien on the property, meaning it is superior to private liens such as construction or mortgage loans.
- Land-secured bonds are used to finance many types of public infrastructure. For example, for transportation, bond proceeds can fund streets, sidewalks, traffic signals, highway interchanges, public parking, public landscaping, and street lights. For utilities and related infrastructure, the bonds can fund water supply, storage, treatment, and distribution facilities; wastewater collection, treatment, and disposal facilities; and storm drain systems. For economic development, the bonds can finance public infrastructure associated with shopping centers, business parks, and industrial parks. In addition, land-secured municipal bonds can fund flood control, recreational facilities, parks, and open space. What constitutes an eligible project is subject to specific state statutes, but in many locales the possibilities are expansive.
** In short, land-secured bond financing can be used to fund the cost of public infrastructure for almost every kind of real estate development: existing urban and suburban neighborhoods, new master-planned communities, local and regional commercial districts, retail malls, big-box commercial centers, office and business parks, industrial complexes, redevelopment project areas, affordable-housing projects, and military bases being converted to civilian use.
** In various states, a voter referendum is required to raise property taxes. This makes it difficult for local governments to cost-effectively finance new projects and existing infrastructure upgrades when they are needed… Consequently, a cash-flow mismatch exists between the up-front costs of public projects and generation of tax revenue. To fill this gap, land-secured bond financing was created so governments can fund infrastructure directly and developers can fund the public-use components of new neighborhoods before the improvements are conveyed to municipalities.
** In other words… these bonds are created to bypass the lawful voting procedure that would otherwise be required of the people to raise property taxes. This is literally “taxation without representation”.
- It continues:
- Land-secured bonds generally are not rated by the rating agencies because they are considered riskier than other municipal bonds and are unlikely to receive investment-grade ratings. As home-builders have come to understand, however, as long as all goes according to plan, the risks lessen over time. Risks are highest as development begins and the project is still dirt’ risk then declines as the project reaches its full potential, builds out, and establishes a diversified tax base with a record of special tax or assessment payments. The annual tax or assessment levy is generally part of the owner’s property tax bill so payment can be routine.
- The creative use of land-secured municipal financing through special tax and special assessment districts offers an opportunity for home-builders and real estate developers to partner with local governments to bring new development to fruition.
- (Source Link [doesn't work, but might be findable]: http://www.cdfa.net/cdfa/cdfaweb…/WilliamBlair-SpecialTaxDistrictFinancing.pdf)
** I am guessing that this answers the question as to why cities and counties across the country are building new housing, strip-malls, mega shopping centers, and business complexes all over the place in “planned communities”, while empty businesses and homes stockpile in the rest of the cities and counties as banks continue their siege of foreclosures on the clueless people.
** The more buildings government builds, the more taxation can be brought into the government Special Financing District!

* There's quite a bit more to the article, including evidence from CAFRs that the county has the funds to pay for services without raising taxes or requiring special taxes etc.
Title: Re: Free Town Project
Post by: maxxoccupancy on May 23, 2011, 08:00:55 pm
The Project is to move 20,000 people within 5 years of getting 20,000 people to agree.

Do we have 20,000 people yet?

Then why are we still talking about this?

That was what we originally agreed to, but only if the FSP hit 20,000 by, I think, 2006.  The original Statement of Intent is meaningless, now.

I don't care if we get 20,000 for the state, as long as we get over 2,000 political activists and another 8-10 political activists for Seabrook.
Title: Re: Free Town Project [Update: Prevent Special Finance Districts etc]
Post by: ShirePhotography on May 24, 2011, 12:54:01 pm
lol
Title: Re: Free Town Project
Post by: Luck on January 17, 2012, 09:40:15 pm
When, Where, How to Get a Free Town
How: Learn the Law from http://1215.org and get land patents, using their info, and prosecute corrupt public servants. Entice public servants to join http://Oathkeepers.org and http://cspoa.org .
When: ASAP.
Where: Small towns and small counties.
In NH, these are small towns that have no zoning laws:
Lempster & maybe Washington [in Sullivan County]
Chatham [in Carroll County]
Ellsworth & Grafton [in Grafton County]
Clarksville, Errol and Stark [in Coos County]
These are other small towns that do have zoning laws, but, being small, may be agreeable to removing them:
Roxbury [in Cheshire County]
Sharon & Windsor [in Hillsborough County]
Hart's Location [in Carroll County]
Benton, Dorcester, Easton, Orange & Waterville [in Grafton County]
Dummer, Randolf & Shelbyville [in Coos County]
The smallest southerly county is Sullivan with 42,000 pop.
The smallest NH county is Coos in the far north with 29,000 pop.
Below it is Carroll with 45,000 pop.
And adjacent to Carroll is Grafton County with 72,000 pop.
For those who can move, those seem to be the most promising for becoming Free Towns and Counties soonest.
For those who can't move, we can still get land patents and collaborate to get into public office.
Once in office we should try to promote return to Constitutional principles, land patents, common law courts etc.

Anything else?
Title: Re: Free Town Project
Post by: SeaSpray on February 20, 2012, 10:54:27 pm
What's all this about Grafton? It definitely makes me rethink moving to Manchester if there's something like that going on out there.
Title: Re: Free Town Project
Post by: Ron Helwig on February 21, 2012, 10:02:59 am
What's all this about Grafton? It definitely makes me rethink moving to Manchester if there's something like that going on out there.

Grafton is a great small town with a relatively large number of FreeStaters. There's a lot going on, but its mostly low key family and farm type stuff.

Since I moved to New Hampshire I've lived in Newport, Hampton Beach, Deerfield, Henniker, Manchester, Grafton, and now Seabrook. They're all great places, but they all have different advantages and lifestyles.
Title: Re: Free Town Project
Post by: tom ploszaj on February 21, 2012, 03:41:55 pm
Hi you can always drop me a note about Grafton questions and what you are interested in.  Manchester and Grafton may be at the opposite ends of the social spectrum, Grafton being a rural area with a one store/deli/gas business.  Grafton is the host of Burning Porcupine, NHJury , The Peaceful Assembly Church and where many  liberty persons are involved in local and state politics and  small endeavors.
Title: Re: Free Town Project (New Video)
Post by: Luck on March 13, 2012, 09:32:13 pm
* Dave Ridley did this video for me for the Free Town Project: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WNAGENA3Yio&list=UU1PTx9ZfTGtryq7joXFnZgQ&index=1&feature=plcp
* Any comments?
Title: Re: Free Town Project. (New Video)
Post by: freedomroad on March 19, 2012, 06:42:32 am
The Saba Cooperative was mentioned in the video.  Here is the website. http://sabacooperative.wordpress.com/
Title: Re: Free Town Project. (New Video)
Post by: Luck on March 26, 2012, 07:24:35 pm
* Here are two more Ridley videos for the Free Town Project.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xArMHuQf7Pc&list=UU1PTx9ZfTGtryq7joXFnZgQ&index=2&feature=plcp
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fg8kf5wIoc4&list=UU1PTx9ZfTGtryq7joXFnZgQ&index=1&feature=plcp
Title: Re: Free Town Project. (Update: Links)
Post by: Luck on August 27, 2012, 07:44:27 pm
* Jakubowski has an interesting plan for free towns. He's working on open source farm and factory tech for sustainable small and larger towns. For links, see http://forum.freestateproject.org/index.php?topic=17549.msg278884#msg278884
Title: Re: Free Town Project (Barrington, Officially a Free Town)
Post by: Luck on August 18, 2016, 12:39:48 am
46565
Free Town Project (Ready to Make Free Towns Official)

I'm reviving this thread because important new information has come to my attention and because there seems to be a lot of useful info in the thread.

Barrington and Rochester were mentioned earlier in this thread as places where Free Staters were residing a few years ago. It so happens that Barrington has apparently already adopted an ordinance that recognizes the right of all communities to self-government, superior to state, national and global law, except for civil rights, which are superior to all other law.

TIME TO START ESTABLISHING FSP-like FREE TOWNS!
So let me show you highlights of Barrington's ordinance, which was first drafted with help from http://CELDF.org , i.e. Community Environmental Legal Defense Fund. Their help is free, and seems very competent, so I recommend that Free Staters get their help in drafting Bills of Rights ordinances etc for other NH towns where you live. Like us, they want to establish local self-government rights.

Barrington, Becoming a Free Town! I don't know if this is just a proposed ordinance, or if it was actually voted for. If Barrington did not make the ordinance official, that's okay, because there are other NH communities that do seem to have made similar ordinances official. I think Barnstead is one of them. In any event, here's Barrington's possible ordinance. I'll try to post other similar ordinances etc of other communities later.

Barrington's Community Bill of Rights Ordinance No. 2014
http://www.barrington.nh.gov/Pages/BarringtonNH_Administrator/TM/documents%20of%20prior%20town%20meetings/Barrington%20Rt-based%20Ordinance%20amended%20delib%20session.pdf

TOWN OF BARRINGTON, STRAFFORD COUNTY, NEW HAMPSHIRE

AN ORDINANCE TO PROTECT THE HEALTH, SAFETY, AND WELFARE OF RIVER ECOSYSTEMS AND RESIDENTS OF BARRINGTON, NEW HAMPSHIRE BY ESTABLISHING A COMMUNITY BILL OF RIGHTS AND BY PROHIBITING RESOURCE EXTRACTION AND TOXIC WASTE DISPOSAL THAT WOULD VIOLATE THOSE RIGHTS

Whereas, this community finds that commercial resource extraction and toxic waste disposal are economically and environmentally unsustainable, in that they damage property values and the natural environment, place the health of residents at risk, threaten the quality of the natural water systems within the Town, while failing to provide real benefits to the people of this community; and

Whereas, this community finds that commercial resource extraction and toxic waste disposal violate the rights of Barrington residents, including our right to make decisions about what happens to the places where we live; and

Whereas, this community finds that a change in the Town of Barrington’s zoning ordinance in March, 2005 – which allows certain commercial resource extraction to occur - places the environment at risk and violates the rights of residents; and

Whereas, current environmental laws allow state-chartered corporations to inflict damage on local water systems that cannot be reversed, violating the rights of residents to protect their community and the rights of ecosystems to exist; and

Whereas, private corporations engaged in resource extraction and toxic waste disposal are wrongly recognized by the federal and state government as having more “rights” than the people who live in our community, and that recognition of corporate “rights” is therefore, a denial of the rights of the residents of Barrington; and

Whereas, such a denial violates the New Hampshire Constitution’s recognition that “all government of right originates from the people, is founded in consent and instituted for the general good;” and the Declaration of Independence’s recognition that governments are instituted to secure and protect the rights of people and communities;

Therefore, We the People of Barrington hereby adopt this Community Bill of Rights Ordinance.

Section 1 – Definitions
(a) “Corporations” ... (b) “Ecosystem” ... (c) “Resource extraction” ... (d) “Toxic waste” ... (e) “Toxic waste disposal ” or “disposal of toxic waste” ...

Section 2 - Statements of Law – A Local Bill of Rights
(a) Right to Access Water. All residents and ecosystems in Barrington possess a right to sustainably access, use, consume, and preserve water drawn from natural water cycles that provide water necessary to sustain life within the Town.
(b) Right to Clean Air. All residents and ecosystems of the town of Barrington possess a right to clean air untainted by toxins, carcinogens, particulates and other substances known to cause harm to health.
(c) Right to Peaceful Enjoyment of Home. Residents of Barrington possess a right to the peaceful enjoyment of their homes, free from interference, intrusion, nuisances or impediments to access and occupation.
(d) Rights of Ecosystems. Ecosystems, including but not limited to, wetlands, streams, rivers, aquifers, and other water systems, possess rights to exist and flourish within the Town of Barrington. Residents of the Town shall possess legal standing to enforce those rights on behalf of those ecosystems.
(e) Right to Scenic Preservation. All residents of the Town of Barrington possess a right to protect and preserve the scenic, historic and aesthetic values of the town, including clean air, pure water, healthy soil, and unspoiled vistas that provide the foundation for a rural quality of life and economic sustainability for local businesses. Residents and local representatives have the authority to enact and enforce legislation that guarantees the exercise of local Self-government that is protective of these rights.
(f) Right to Self-Government. All residents of Barrington possess the right to a form of governance where they live which recognizes that all power is inherent in the people, and that all free governments are founded on the people’s authority and consent. Use of the “Town of Barrington” municipal corporation by the sovereign people shall not be deemed, by any authority, to eliminate or reduce that Self-governing authority.
(g) Rights as Self-Executing. All rights delineated and secured by this ordinance are inherent, fundamental, and inalienable, and shall be Self-executing and enforceable against both private and public actors.
Title: Re: Free Town Project. (Barrington, a Free Town Already)
Post by: Luck on August 18, 2016, 01:03:40 am
(Cont. from previous post)

Section 3 — Statements of Law – Prohibitions Necessary to Secure Bill of Rights’ Protections
(a) It shall be unlawful within the Town of Barrington for a corporation, or any person using a corporation, to engage in commercial resource extraction or the disposal of toxic waste.
(b) It shall be unlawful for any corporation or government to violate the rights recognized and secured by this Ordinance.
(c) No permit, license, privilege, charter, or other authority issued by any State or federal entity which would violate the prohibitions of this Ordinance and deprive any Town resident of any rights secured by this Ordinance, the New Hampshire Constitution, the United States Constitution, or other laws, shall be deemed valid within the Town of Barrington.

Section 4 — Exceptions. ... (a) Utility corporations ... (b) Corporations operating under valid and express contractual provisions ... (c) The City of Rochester … (d) Sand or gravel extraction ....

Section 5 — Enforcement
(a) Any corporation that violates any prohibition of this Ordinance shall be guilty of an offense and, upon conviction thereof, shall be sentenced to pay the maximum fine allowable under State law for that violation. Each day or portion thereof, and violation of each section of this Ordinance, shall count as separate violations.
(b) The Town of Barrington may enforce this Ordinance through an action in equity brought in any court possessing jurisdiction over activities occurring within the Town of Barrington. In such an action, the Town of Barrington shall be entitled to recover all costs of litigation, including, without limitation, expert and attorney’s fees.
(c) Any Town resident shall have the authority to enforce this Ordinance through an action in equity brought in any court possessing jurisdiction over activities occurring within the Town of Barrington. In such an action, the resident shall be entitled to recover all costs of litigation, including, without limitation, expert and attorney’s fees.
(d) Any person who brings an action to secure the rights of ecosystems shall bring that action in the name of the ecosystem in any court possessing jurisdiction over activities occurring within the Town of Barrington. Damages shall be measured by the cost of restoring the ecosystem to its state before the injury, and shall be paid to the Town of Barrington to be used exclusively for the full and complete restoration of the ecosystem.

Section 6 – Corporate Powers
(a) Corporations and other business entities which violate this Ordinance, or which seek to violate this Ordinance, shall not be deemed to be “persons,” nor possess any other legal rights, privileges, powers, or protections which would interfere with the enforcement of rights or prohibitions enumerated by this Ordinance. Such powers shall include the authority to assert state or federal preemptive laws in an attempt to overturn this Ordinance, and the authority to assert that the people of the Town lack the authority to adopt this Ordinance.
(b) All laws adopted by the legislature of the State of New Hampshire, rules adopted by any State agency, and permits issued by any State agency, shall be the law of the Town of Barrington only to the extent that they do not violate this Ordinance.

Section 7 — Effective Date and Existing Permit holders ...

Section 8 — People’s Right to Self-Government
Use of the courts or the legislature to attempt to overturn the provisions of this Ordinance shall require community meetings focused on changes to Town government that would insulate the Town from interference with the right of residents to local self-government. [This means potentially secession!]


Section 9 – New Hampshire Constitutional Changes. The people of the Town of Barrington call for amendment of the New Hampshire Constitution to secure within it explicitly a community right to local Self-government free from preemption by State government. The people of Barrington also call for a state constitutional amendment and federal constitutional changes that explicitly elevate community rights above corporate property rights, and that recognizes the rights of nature enforceable by the residents of a community.

Section 10 — Severability. The provisions of this Ordinance are severable. ...

Section 11 --- Repealer. ...

ENACTED AND ORDAINED this _____ day of _____, 2014, by the Town of Barrington, in Strafford County, New Hampshire. By: _____
Title: Re: Free Town Project. (Barrington, a Free Town Already?)
Post by: Luck on November 21, 2017, 02:39:26 pm
Free Towns Require Declarations of Independence and of Community Rights

Barrington started the process as explained in previous post above.

NOW SUPPORT THIS LEGISLATION

NH Rep Ellen Read recently sponsored CACR19, a state constitutional amendment that would guarantee local community rights
https://forum.freestateproject.org/index.php?topic=28491.msg300461#msg300461

SEE ALSO:

New Hampshire Community Rights Network
https://forum.freestateproject.org/index.php?topic=28491.msg299182#msg299182

Why we must amend the NH Constitution
https://forum.freestateproject.org/index.php?topic=28491.msg299261#msg299261

Ohio Community Rights Action Example
https://forum.freestateproject.org/index.php?topic=28491.msg299401#msg299401

Pennsylvania Community Rights Action Example
https://forum.freestateproject.org/index.php?topic=28491.msg299402#msg299402
Title: Re: Free Town Project
Post by: Luck on March 04, 2018, 04:31:23 pm
57755

NH Measure would secure the right of local community self-government
https://celdf.org/2018/01/press-release-new-hampshire-community-rights-amendment-advances-public-committee-hearing/

Plymouth, NH, Voters Adopt Community Rights Sustainable Energy Future Ordinance
https://celdf.org/2018/02/press-release-plymouth-nh-voters-adopt-community-rights-sustainable-energy-future-ordinance/

I think Team Law has info on Land Patents
http://TeamLaw.org

START A TOWN
https://www2.census.gov/geo/pdfs/reference/GARM/Ch9GARM.pdf
http://www.senate.ga.gov/committees/Documents/CarlVinsonSummaryMunicipalIncorporationProceduresbyState.pdf
STATES' REQUIREMENTS TO START A VILLAGE/TOWN (# Residents; V=voters; o=land owners; h = houses)
Listed from least to most required residents
UT 1 (or 100?) ----- ND 1 (<4SQMI=>100/SQMI?) ----- OR 1 (150?) ----- NM 1o or200V (150=1/A?) ----- SC 1 (1=>300/SQMI...?) ----- PA 1 ----- AL 1 (300?) ----- NV 5V (250V?) ----- OK 25V ----- WI 25o (300or3000?) ----- SD 100or30V ----- VT 30h ----- CO 40Vor150o ----- IN 50o ----- NE 100 ----- WV 100=<1SQMI,500/SQMI=>1SQMI ----- ID 126V ----- MI 150=>100/SQMI (250/.75SQMI?) ----- AR 200V (20V) ----- GA 200 ----- IL 200 ----- TX 201 ----- KY 300 ----- MD 300=60V ----- MT 300 (=500/SQMI?) ----- MS 300+1SQMI ----- LA 200 (300?) ----- KS 300=50V ----- MO 500 ----- TN 500... ----- WY 500=<3SQMI ----- CA 500V ----- NY 500=100/SQMI ----- VA 1000 ----- AZ 1500 ----- WA (300or3000?) ----- FL 5000 ----- MA 12000 ----- OH 1600=800/SQMI=$3500

States that require unspecified government approval:
CT 1 APPROV<LEG ----- DE 1 APPROV<LEG ----- ME 1 APPROV<LEG ----- NH 1 APPROV<LEG ----- NJ 1 APPROV<LEG ----- NC 1 APPROV<LEG ----- RI 1 APPROV<LEG ----- AK 1 APPROV<D CMTY AFFAIRS ----- IA 1 APPROV<CY DEV BD ----- MN 1 APPROV<MUNI BD ----- DC (can't do) ----- HI (can't do)

How do you start your own town?
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/explainer/2005/11/how_to_start_your_own_town.html
_Get to know the neighbors. Though each state has its own rules on "municipal incorporation," in general you'll need to get 51 percent of the eligible voters in the area to go along with you. (It's easiest to start a town from scratch, as opposed to by secession; most upstarts begin as "unincorporated communities" within a larger county.) In 2000, Clark hired a surveyor to draw up boundaries for a town that would be a little bigger than a square mile and would include 254 people—of whom only 65 were registered to vote. To found Clark, Texas, he had to convince only a few dozen neighbors it was a good idea.
_To incorporate a town, you'll need a lawyer who can handle the paperwork. Once you've decided on where to put your town, the first step toward You-ville is to get a petition signed by some of the people who live there. In Texas, you'll need 10 percent of the voters. In Arkansas, you need to get 75 signatures, no matter how big your town is going to be.
_An application for forming a town includes the signed petition, a proposed name, and—in some cases—a proposed form of government. There are four basic town governments to choose from—mayor-council, council-manager, commission, or representative town meeting—but some states' laws limit your options depending on the size of your community. Once you complete your application, all you typically need is a "yes" vote from your neighbors and the approval of a county judge or state official. In some places, though, a town charter must be granted by vote of the state legislature.
_Depending on where you live, you may face certain restrictions on your right to incorporate. Your proposed town may need to have a minimum number of people, for example, or it may need to be a minimum distance from other towns and cities. The description of where it is should be very specific—for an example, take a look at the charter-specified boundaries of Danbury, Conn. And some states will expect your town to have a unique name, so think again if you wanted to use "Fairview" or "Midway."
An unincorporated community gets its services from the county without paying municipal taxes, so frivolous town-founding can be a bad idea. Why might you want to incorporate? First, you could be heading off annexation by a nearby city. The residents of what is now DISH, Texas were afraid of being annexed by Fort Worth. If their land had become part of the city, they'd have faced the high property taxes used to cover social services in less affluent areas. Second, unincorporated communities have very little control over what gets built in the area. But towns can control their own zoning—and thereby protect their property values.

PRACTICE GAMES
Game: Monopoly; Rules: Everyone get an allowance; Invest in properties with luck; Pay property owners with bad luck; Take a turn in jail with bad luck; Go broke with bad luck; 1 player get everyone's money with good luck.

Game: Liberal-Libertarian Utopia; Rules: Founders start Town with x Residents; Residents own equal parts of town land; Residents rent lands to businesses; Residents own shares of businesses; Residents receive dividends from bank or businesses; Workers receive salaries from businesses; Residents buy goods & services from businesses; Residents own Bank business; Bank create money as needed to pay Residents dividends; Residents hire bank manager & clerks to create money for loans & to pay dividends; Residents own adjacent land to grow new separate town/s; All Residents prosper.


Title: Re: Free Town Project (Barrington, Plymouth etc)
Post by: Luck on March 17, 2018, 02:51:41 pm
58126

(See "unrelated" video at bottom.)

Press Release: Historic Vote on Community Rights State Constitutional Amendment in NH Legislature
Mar 16, 2018

One-third of state legislature supports Community Rights Amendment; momentum building to advance rights

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
CONTACT:
Michelle Sanborn, New Hampshire Community Organizer
www.celdf.org
michelle@celdf.org
603-524-2468

CONCORD, NH: Yesterday, the New Hampshire House debated and voted on CACR19, the NH Community Rights Amendment, which received one-third of the legislators’ support. This is the first Community Rights state constitutional amendment considered by a state legislature, signifying the growing support for Community Rights that is building across the U.S. Similar state amendments are advancing as citizen initiatives in Ohio and Oregon.

Community Rights is growing as communities across the country face harmful corporate projects such as fracking, pipelines, high-tower electrical transmission lines, and landfills. These projects are forced into towns against the will of the people due to corporate claimed “rights” and state preemption.

In response, communities are partnering with the Community Environmental Legal Defense Fund (CELDF) to draft Community Rights laws. Community Rights includes democratic rights to local community self-government, and environmental rights to clean air, water, and soil. The laws elevate these rights above corporate claimed “rights” and state preemption. Nearly 200 communities across the U.S. have worked with CELDF to draft and advance rights-based laws. Today, through statewide Networks, residents are driving Community Rights to the state level.

CACR19 was drafted by the New Hampshire Community Rights Network (NHCRN), with assistance from CELDF. The amendment recognizes the authority of people in towns throughout the state to enact local laws protecting individual and Community Rights, free from corporate interference and state preemption. That authority includes the right to protect the natural environment.
The amendment was sponsored by House Representative Ellen Read of Rockingham, District 17, and received bi-partisan co-sponsorship from eight additional representatives from districts across the state.

Representative Read declared, “This marks a significant day in the growing Community Rights movement, and I am pleased that 112 legislators understand the importance of recognizing the people’s right to govern their communities. We are the public servants. It is our job to place the people’s amendment on the ballot and let the people decide. CACR19 will be back!”
CELDF’s Community Rights Organizer and the NHCRN’s president Michelle Sanborn responded, “We know from prior people’s movements that fundamental change comes from persistent, unrelenting pressure. As corporate threats grow, we are encouraged by the strong support received from Representative Read and her colleagues. The House’s growing support of the people’s right to vote serves as an inspiration for more communities to join the New Hampshire Community Rights Movement. Indeed, it already has!”

New Hampshire Part of Growing Movement
New Hampshire residents are advancing Community Rights as part of the broader Community Rights movement building across the U.S. Local communities and state Community Rights Networks are partnering with CELDF to advance and protect fundamental democratic and environmental rights. They are working with CELDF to establish Community Rights and the Rights of Nature in law, and prohibit extraction, fracking, factory farming, water privatization, and other industrial activities as violations of those rights. Communities are joining together within and across states, working with CELDF to advance systemic change – recognizing our existing system of law and governance as inherently undemocratic and unsustainable.

Additional Information
For additional information regarding Community Rights, contact CELDF at info@celdf.org. To learn about the New Hampshire Community Rights Network, visit www.nhcommunityrights.org. Select Boards and citizens interested in supporting the New Hampshire Community Rights Amendment may contact Michelle Sanborn at michelle@celdf.org.

About CELDF — Community Environmental Legal Defense Fund
The Community Environmental Legal Defense Fund is a non-profit, public interest law firm providing free and affordable legal services to communities facing threats to their local environment, local agriculture, local economy, and quality of life. Its mission is to build sustainable communities by assisting people to assert their right to local self-government and the rights of nature.


Unrelated Video: Fed up with the state of the World? You Can Start Your Own Town
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KgjeCUh4Jjk
Title: Re: Free Town Project (Barrington, Plymouth etc)
Post by: Luck on March 21, 2018, 04:30:10 pm
58260

(See recent article above about CELDF efforts in NH for local sovereignty.)

Mahoning Board of Elections Blocks Youngstown Drinking Water Protection Initiative from May ballot; community turns to Ohio Supreme Court
https://celdf.org/2018/03/press-release-mahoning-board-of-elections-defies-supreme-court/

Lafayette, CO may again consider legalizing anti-fracking civil disobedience
http://www.dailycamera.com/lafayette-news/ci_31745804/lafayette-may-again-consider-legalizing-anti-fracking-civil

Oregon aerial herbicide spray ban not eligible for May election ballot, jackass judge rules
http://registerguard.com/rg/news/local/36529032-75/proposed-lane-county-aerial-herbicide-spray-ban-not-eligible-for-may-election-ballot-judge-rules.html.csp#

Democracy School: pass ordinances against Corporate Rights, Dillon's Rule, Pre-emption
Part 2-5 https://youtu.be/GaAgpu6-TnY

Other local sovereignty news
https://celdf.org/category/news/community-wires/

State Law: Adoption of Emergency Temporary Zoning and Planning [Authoritarian BS]
https://law.justia.com/codes/new-hampshire/2016/title-lxiv/chapter-675/section-675-4-a

NH Cities & Towns Data
http://www.city-data.com/city/New-Hampshire.html
Title: Re: Free Town Project (Barrington, Plymouth etc)
Post by: Luck on March 28, 2018, 12:27:03 pm
58502

(In case you missed them, the previous 2 posts are also very recent.)

CELDF Democracy School Curriculum
(This is what their introductory class covers to help people understand the legal hurdles they need to overcome in order to help achieve Local Sovereignty. See especially the Themes.)
https://celdf.org/how-we-work/education/democracy-school/democracy-school-curriculum/

See also: http://www.nhcommunityrights.org/ and http://CELDF.org

DAY ONE
Section “A”
_Our Work Within the Regulatory System: What is Law and How is it Used
Curriculum Selections
* Roanoke Times and World News, Smithfield Says State Miscounted the Extent of its Water Pollution (1997).
* Jane Anne Morris, Help! I’ve Been Colonized and I Can’t Get Up (1998).
* Edward Bernays, Propaganda (1928).
* Intro to Bernays.
* John C. Stauber and Sheldon Rampton, A R.O.S.E. By Any Other Name.
* Pew Commission on Industrial Farm Animal Production
* PennAg Industries Association, Changing Our Image of Farming.
* Regulatory Triangles.
* Gordon Lafer, Ph.D., Free and Fair? How Labor Law Fails U.S. Democratic Election Standards.
* Kazis and Grossman, Fear at Work (1982).
* Cyclopedic Law Dictionary: Definition of Law.
* J. Allen Smith, The Spirit of American Government.
* Philip S. Foner, Ph.D, The Complete Writings of Thomas Paine.
* The Putney Debates, The Levellers.
THEMES
_The regulatory system guarantees that the environment will be damaged, that the system actually permits it to occur, and that the system is built to recognize certain constitutional constraints.
_Our “engaging in the regulatory system”, while limiting some of the harms done by corporations, cannot achieve the types of change we need, and that we are colonized to believe that it actually can.
_Our thinking is colonized not only by the law – which establishes certain constraints that deny us the goals of our activism – but that our thinking is colonized by a culture that is created by those who benefit from the way that the system operates.
_On the issue of land application of sewage sludge, we’ve been colonized that a bad is a good, through language used to frame the issue.
_On the issue of the corporatization of agriculture, we’ve been colonized that a bad is a good, through language used to frame the issue.
_Both the regulatory system of law and the culture produce a system of activism that cannot stop a corporate minority from governing community majorities, and that the regulatory system of law and culture effectively drives us like cattle down to a point of activism where we cannot win the issue that we’re working on.
_A regulatory system of law governs employer-employee relationships, and that regulatory system of law codifies the rights of the employer over the employee.
_Regulatory systems of law were created not to protect health, safety, and welfare, but as a governmental barrier to prevent majority governance.
_The traditional use of the regulatory system of law, and the operation of today’s regulatory agencies, are not mistakes or errors, but a logical use of the law to assert minority control over majorities.
Law itself has a long history of being used by a minority to govern, that it was used by William the Conqueror to create an English structure of law; and that the mere existence of Constitutions does not guarantee democratic government.
_Throughout history, there have always been people who have seen that illegitimate structure of governance, and demanded something else, like the English Levelers and Diggers in the 1600’s.

DAY TWO
Section “B”
_Colonialism:  Replicating the English Structure of Law and Culture Across the Globe and in the American Colonies
Curriculum Selections
* W.E. DuBois, The World and Africa
* Ronald Segal, The Black Diaspora (Wealth of the Indies).
* The Bull Inter Caetera (Alexander VI), May 4, 1493.
* Charter of Charles II to William Penn  (March 4, 1681).
* Thomas Paine on Corporations and Charters in “The Right of Man”.
* Robert A. Williams, Jr., The American Indian in Western Legal Thought.
* Clarence J. Glacken, Traces on the Rhodian Shore
* Professor Laxman D. Satya, The British Empire, Ecology and Famines in the Late 19th Century Central India
* Printed by John More, Esq, The Lawes Resolutions of Womens Rights: or, the Lawes Provision for Woemen
* Harvey Wish, American Slave Insurrections Before 1861.(Joanne Grant, Black Protest, History Documents, and Analyses).
* Anne Farrow, Joel Lang, and Jenifer Frank, Complicity.
THEMES
_Western Europeans colonized other countries through various means of legally sanctioned violence and terror.
_The English colonized the Caribbean through various means of violence and terror.
_The Church intervened repeatedly to legalize and authorize state colonialism.
_The English colonized America through the use of corporate charters which transferred full governing authority to one or several men, and that charters are, in reality, instruments of exclusion.
_The English Structure of Law was positioned to recognize the legality of colonizing “discovered” lands, and that the American Indians were dispossessed of lands through that legal sanction.
_The English Structure of Law viewed nature as a resource to be used, and thus, that it was man’s rightful role to subjugate, dominate and manage nature; and that through colonialism, the English imposed that view and forcibly eliminated those cultures that sustainably used natural systems.
_The English Structure of Law treated African-Americans as property, leading to a system of slavery as the dominant economic institution both north and south, and that imposition of that understanding led to thousands of slave revolts prior to the Civil War in the United States.
_The English Structure of law treated women as property.
 
Section “C”
_The American Revolutionaries Rebel Against the English Structure of Law and Culture
Curriculum Selections
* Sons of Liberty of New York, The ALARM (1773).
* Common Sense, Rights of Man, and Other Essential Writing of Thomas Paine [pdf].
* Declaration of Independence (1776).
* Ralph Barton Parry, Puritanism and Democracy (1964) (Earl Latham, The Declaration of Independence and the Constitution).
* Articles of Confederation (1777).
THEMES
_Early colonists understood that English colonialism, carried out by multinational trading corporations chartered by England, resulted in the actions taken by Parliament against the American colonies.
_Some revolutionaries understood that solving their problem meant replacing the English structure of law and culture, and transforming the chartered corporate colonies from property to constitutionalized states, and that the corporate form must be subordinated to the governance of the people.
_That understanding led to the declaration of a new theory of governance, expounded as part of the Declaration of Independence, that people have inherent rights and create governments to secure and protect those rights, and that when government fails to secure and protect those rights, is the duty of people to abolish that government.
_The authorship and release of the Declaration of Independence was illegal.
_The colonists drafted a First Constitution, the Articles of Confederation, and those Articles envisioned a decentralized confederation of the States that retained local governing authority.
_Lack of a centralized, preemptive federal government created delays for those engaged in multi-state commerce, and that Washington’s incorporation of the Potomac Company spotlighted those problems.

Title: Re: Free Town Project (Barrington, Plymouth etc)
Post by: Luck on March 28, 2018, 12:27:32 pm
(Cont.) (Start at previous post.)

Section “D”
_Betraying the Revolution: A Minority Replicates the English Structure of Law Through the Adoption of the U.S. Constitution
Curriculum Selections
* Thomas P. Slaughter, The Whiskey Rebellion.
* The Mount Vernon Conference, The Annapolis Convention, and the End of the First Constitution. [pdf]
* Robert L. Schuyler, The Constitution of the United States (1923) (Earl Latham, The Declaration of Independence and the Constitution).
* Matt Wuerker and Peter Kellman, The Closed-Door Constitutional Convention (2001)
* Vernon Louis Parrington, Main Currents in American Thought (1927).
* Reported by James Madison, Notes of the Debates in the Federal Convention of 1787.
* Richard Grossman, Anti-Federalists Speak: Property vs. Democracy in 1787.
* The United States Constitution (1789).
THEMES
_The Mount Vernon Conference was convened to solve the problems encountered by the Potomac Company, and the Conference led to the Annapolis Convention, which sent a report to Congress urging for a broader meeting to be held in Philadelphia.
_Delegates to the Philadelphia Constitutional Convention were a select group representing property-owning white males, that the proceedings were secret and sentries were positioned at the doors, that Madison and Randolph presented the Virginia Plan on the first day, and that minutes of the Convention were not released for over 53 years.
_Most of the delegates viewed democracy as rule by the rabble, and called for the crafting of a Constitution that enabled a minority to govern, and which protected the property of the minority from majority governance.
_There were a group of people called the anti-federalists who understood what the delegates were attempting, and attempted to stop the ratification of the Constitution.
_The Constitution is an anti-majoritarian, slave document that established a minority-rule, slave state.
 
Section “E”
_The Second American Revolution: Abolitionists and Women’s Rights Agitators Lead a Revolt Against the Constitution
Curriculum Selections
* William Lloyd Garrison, Moral Law Higher Than the Constitution (The Perfectionists: Radical Social Thought in the North, 1815-1860).
* Truman Nelson, Documents of Upheaval.
* Henry Wilson, Rise and Fall of the Slave Power in America.
* Howard Jay Graham, Everyman’s Constitution.
* Civil War Amendments.
* Michael Ken Curtis, Connecticut Law Review.
* W.E.B. DuBois, Black Reconstruction in America 1860-1880.
* Peter Kellman, Building Unions.
* Richard Grossman, Then What Happened?
* John R. Howard, The Shifting Wind.
* Civil Rights Cases.
* Minor v. Happersett, 88 U.S. 162 (1874).
* Breaking Unjust Laws: An Account of the Proceedings on the Trial of Susan B. Anthony on the Charge of Illegal Voting.
THEMES
_The Abolitionists launched a frontal attack on the Constitution as a slave document, and that the Abolitionists used the Declaration of Independence as the foundation for that attack.
_The Abolitionists were forced to dismantle the popular American Colonization Society, which called for the expatriation of slaves to slave colonies, because their goals were not the goals of the Abolitionists.
_The Abolitionists and Radical Republicans drove the 13th, 14th, and 15th Amendments into the Constitution following the Civil War.
The Abolitionists saw those Amendments as the beginning of a constitutional revolution, to replace a slave Constitution with a rights Constitution.
_Southern and northern business interests reunited after the Civil War, and with the election of Hayes, pulled the federal troops out of the south and brought them north to put down labor uprisings.
_The United States Supreme Court concocted legal theories that withdrew the protections of the Amendments from African-Americans in the South.
_That women attempted to enforce the guarantees of those Amendments and were denied, and that suffragists broke the law as part of their efforts to drive universal suffrage into the Constitution.
 
Section “F”
_Building a Corporate State: A Minority Uses the Constitution to Override Community Self-Government
Curriculum Selections
* Model Brief on Corporate “Rights”
* Jane Anne Morris, Gaveling Down The Rabble.
* Peter Kellman, You’ve Hard of Santa Clara, Now Meet Dartmouth.
* Dartmouth Chart
* Jon Teaford, Municipal Charters.
* John Forrest Dillion, LL.D., Commentaries on the Law of Municipal Corporations.
* Ben Price, The Corporate Counter-Revolution Chart.
* Arthur Selwyn Miller, The Modern Corporate State (1976).
THEMES
_Accumulations of property and capital, in the form of the corporation, have been given constitutional “rights” and protections over the past one hundred and thirty years.
_As early as 1819, corporations were recognized as being protected by the Contracts Clause of the Constitution, making their corporate charters exempt from unilateral authority exercised by the State seeking to change the charter.
_Even though private corporations and municipal corporations are both corporations, that separate sets of law have evolved which empower private corporations but keep municipal corporations under very strict State control.
_The system of law guarantees that the rights of private corporations and their decision-makers will almost always trump the rights of communities, even though municipal corporations ostensibly represent “we the people.”
_The system of law does not recognize a right of local self-government, but that municipalities are wholly controlled by State governments, as a parent/child relationship.
_The Commerce Clause has been used by corporations and the courts to strip state and municipal governments of lawmaking in the area of commerce, and that major environmental, labor, and civil rights laws were passed under the authority of that Clause.
_The accumulation of rights for corporate minorities combined with the corporate grip on culture, has resulted in the creation of a Corporate State.
 
Section “G”
_Shaping a Movement: Communities Assert Local Self-Governance in Pennsylvania, New Hampshire, Virginia and Beyond
Curriculum Selections
* The Pennsylvania Story
* Strategic “Boxes” – Reframing Single Issues, Adopting Rights-Based Local Law, Drawing the “right response” from the Corporate State, and Building larger Coalitions
* Home Rule, Local Constitutions, and Building Community Government from Rights, as a Foundation
* The Rights of Nature
Title: Re: Free Town Project (Floating Islands)
Post by: Luck on May 18, 2018, 02:52:34 pm
59884

There was a short discussion of floating islands a few years ago here:
https://forum.freestateproject.org/index.php?topic=26558.0

I just posted an update there on the following new article, that explains a real plan for floating islands with their own governments, currency etc. The discussion above covered a cheap low-tech method of making your own floating island with plastic bottles in nets with plyboard or other planking over them and with mangrove trees around the edges. These trees can grow without rooting in soil, just water, so they would help buoy the island. Here's the new article, which involves a 50 million dollar investment, but I prefer cheap low-tech.

Floating island will have own government, cryptocurrency, 300 houses
https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/realestate/floating-island-will-have-own-government-cryptocurrency-300-houses/ar-AAxsyA1?ocid=spartanntp

NH has a very short coastline, so it might be hard to get floating islands there, but Maine has a long coastline. The islands would likely need to be a few miles out and would need to be well anchored or have self-propulsion. The gulf stream might keep it warm enough for the mangrove trees to survive there.