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FSP -- General Discussion => Prospective Participants => Topic started by: nemosgypsy on March 19, 2009, 09:49:41 pm

Title: Honesty about property taxes in NH
Post by: nemosgypsy on March 19, 2009, 09:49:41 pm
   Being away from NH I have learned a few things about taxes, including property taxes. NH has absorbent property taxes in some parts of the state, if not all and I am wondering if the FSP is informing people who are moving from out of state about these property taxes. I know of many families who moved away from NH so that they could purchase an affordable house with little to no property tax. Yes other states have income and sales tax both or one of the other, so where does NH get its money? From high property tax that's where.
    A friend of mine purchased a farm house in rural Wear NH, the property tax was 1,500 a year. Her and her husband renovated the house with their own time and money, to make it their own. One day the tax assessor man came, a wolf in sheep's clothing, saw their efforts, naive husband proud of his work, and the tax man well he increased their property tax from 1,500 a year to a whopping 6,000 a year. If you are inticing people to come because NH has no income or sales tax, you should also inform them of the high property taxes, no public transportation (if you do not have reliable transportation or a drivers license you are in a bad situation the winters are rough and NH is rural), poor education, awful health care etc.
     My family owns property in NH and it's not the greatest, we pay 1,600 a year and there have been many a year we had to break the bank to cover heating and property taxes, mortgage etc. I am against sales and income tax however I am just keeping it honest, because prospective movers might not expect all this when they come. If they have large sums of money, income well, it doesn't matter I suppose. NH is the sixth richest state in the country, but there is many an old money and those who will keep it that way, all I am saying is people from other states may have difficulty gaining footing, and I must again emphasize reliable transportation, your cars will rust, your engines will stall your gas lines will freeze, 4wheel drive, snow tires a must. NH is rough living indeed but builds character, that I will never regret.
Title: Re: Honesty about property taxes in NH
Post by: freedomroad on March 19, 2009, 10:32:46 pm
   Being away from NH I have learned a few things about taxes, including property taxes. NH has absorbent property taxes in some parts of the state, if not all and I am wondering if the FSP is informing people who are moving from out of state about these property taxes.

Thank you for your post.  I'm not trying to attack you so please don't take this as a personal attack.  My thoughts follow.

The FSP is just a bus to move people to NH.  It doesn't really info people about that many things except for the statement of intent and a few other things.

Individual members of the FSP however, do inform folks.  No one is trying to pretend that NH is perfect.  For example. Manchester, NH was just rated the 2nd lowest taxed city in the nation.  A city in AK was rated the lowest.  So we are well aware that NH doesn't have the lowest taxes overall.  Heck, there are parts of AK without income, sales, or property taxes and member you are paid to live there.

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I know of many families who moved away from NH so that they could purchase an affordable house with little to no property tax.


That's one way to do it.  Another way is to work to lower the property taxes.  As you know, the voters of most towns have huge influence on what the tax rates are as the help set the budget.  However, I recommend families do whatever they think is best. 

Quote
Yes other states have income and sales tax both or one of the other, so where does NH get its money? From high property tax that's where.

That is more or less true.  Most states have both a state income and a state sales tax.  NH has a bunch of minor taxes and high property taxes.  Of course, almost all towns outside of NH also have property taxes.  In fact, in some areas, the property taxes are even higher than in NH.  For example, not only do properties in Boston cost much more than NH (plus residents have to pay income and sales tax), but the property taxes are also higher.  People in NJ tend to also pay higher property taxes.  Many people in NY, RI, CT, VT, ME, and OR also pay higher property taxes.  While people in CA tend not to have high property taxes, there are a ton of minor taxes and the income and sales taxes can get over 10% in some areas.

On the other hand, the town I live in is much different.  Much of the taxes in my town are paid for by companies and not individual property taxes.  So even in NH, things may vary greatly from town to town. 

Quote
    A friend of mine purchased a farm house in rural Wear NH, the property tax was 1,500 a year. Her and her husband renovated the house with their own time and money, to make it their own. One day the tax assessor man came, a wolf in sheep's clothing, saw their efforts, naive husband proud of his work, and the tax man well he increased their property tax from 1,500 a year to a whopping 6,000 a year.


Pristine houses tend to be worth more than dilapidated buildings.  Subsequently, people owning them tend to have higher property tax bills.  In this way, many towns seem to reward people who don't keep their house in good condition with lower property tax bills.  Of course, you can always fight a property tax bill.  It may be even more effective to get to the route of the problem, the out of control spending in some of the towns.

Quote
If you are inticing people to come because NH has no income or sales tax, you should also inform them of the high property taxes, no public transportation (if you do not have reliable transportation or a drivers license you are in a bad situation the winters are rough and NH is rura
l), poor education, awful health care etc.

I am enticing people to move to NH as part of the Free State Project.  I understand that no state is perfect or will become perfect with a snap of my fingers.  The FSP members looked at 10 states to see which was the best for the project.  We then voted and NH was selected.

About the issues you bring up, though.

NH has the 2nd lowest overall taxes.
NH has public transportation in several areas including Manchester and the Seacoast.
NH (and New England in general) tends to lead the nation in education.
NH has one of the healthiest populations in the nation (I thing 2nd) and has one of the top hospitals in the nation.

Quote
     My family owns property in NH and it's not the greatest, we pay 1,600 a year and there have been many a year we had to break the bank to cover heating and property taxes, mortgage etc. I am against sales and income tax however I am just keeping it honest, because prospective movers might not expect all this when they come.


All of the facts are out there.  There is a massive FSP website full of tons of info.  There are welcome wagon folks to answer all questions.  There is this forum where people are encouraged to ask questions.  There is even a prospective participants sub forum, as you know since we are posting on it.  No one is trying to hide anything.

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If they have large sums of money, income well, it doesn't matter I suppose. NH is the sixth richest state in the country, but there is many an old money and those who will keep it that way, all I am saying is people from other states may have difficulty gaining footing, and I must again emphasize reliable transportation, your cars will rust, your engines will stall your gas lines will freeze, 4wheel drive, snow tires a must. NH is rough living indeed but builds character, that I will never regret.

Through criagslist, classified ads, and porcmanor.com people are able to move to NH and rent rooms from $300-$700 per month, all over the state.  NH isn't a very expensive state to live in (much cheaper than MA, CA, AK, HI, CT, RI, NY, NJ for most people).  You can buy a house for under $150,000 in most of the state.  You can buy a 2 bedroom condo in Concord for less than $70,000 (I know, my friend has one).

I agree that reliable transportation is needed if you don't live in one of the dozens of towns or cities (Keene, Manchester, Derry, Portsmouth. Dover, Seabrook, Newport, Berlin, Concord, Hampton. Hampton Falls, Exeter...) where it is easy enough to walk around from certain areas.  My engine didn't stall and my gasline didn't freeze this winter.  However, it only got -4 or so where I live at the coldest.  I understand it gets down to -30 or so from time to time, depending on where you live.  Of course, if you are worried, you can get a vehicle which is plugged in at night.  I don't have 4 wheel drive or snow tires.  I think they are useful; however, they are usually not needed - it depends on your driving habits.

Overall, I agree with you.  While the government of NH is smaller than most and leaves you alone more than most, NH has more nature induced problems than some other areas of the nation.  While NH isn't as wild as AK, WY, MT, ND, SD, VT, or ME, it does have obstacles and changing weather which should be planned for.  NH is far from perfect, but it seems damn good to me!
Title: Re: Honesty about property taxes in NH
Post by: sj on March 19, 2009, 10:38:39 pm
NH has higher property taxes than almost any other state.  It is also the LOWEST TAXED STATE (http://money.aol.com/cnnmoney/tax/lowest-state-taxes) in the contiguous United States.  If you would prefer to pay higher taxes so long as their sales or income taxes, I guess there's not much I can say.  However, if you're looking to pay as little tax as possible, NH is the place to be, as it has the lowest state taxes after Alaska.

While I obviously don't like property taxes, one of the things about them that I think has helped keep NH's taxes low is that people have to pay a bill at the end of the year; they see in real terms how much the state is taking from them.  When there's a sales or income tax, people don't really feel how much they're losing.
Title: Re: Honesty about property taxes in NH
Post by: WendellBerry on March 20, 2009, 12:06:44 am
NH has higher property taxes than almost any other state.  It is also the LOWEST TAXED STATE (http://money.aol.com/cnnmoney/tax/lowest-state-taxes) in the contiguous United States.  If you would prefer to pay higher taxes so long as their sales or income taxes, I guess there's not much I can say.  However, if you're looking to pay as little tax as possible, NH is the place to be, as it has the lowest state taxes after Alaska.

While I obviously don't like property taxes, one of the things about them that I think has helped keep NH's taxes low is that people have to pay a bill at the end of the year; they see in real terms how much the state is taking from them.  When there's a sales or income tax, people don't really feel how much they're losing.

One of the easiest things folks in the FSP should do is call for a repeal of all taxation on buildings (capital/labor) and shifting all of property tax onto land values.

Land values are the result of the location's proximity to the labor and services of your neighbors and not via any effort expended by the landowner.
Title: Re: Honesty about property taxes in NH
Post by: J’raxis 270145 on March 20, 2009, 01:00:01 am
Land values are the result of the location's proximity to the labor and services of your neighbors and not via any effort expended by the landowner.

I can’t think of a better reason to oppose land value taxes: The entire idea is based on taxing someone on something they’re not even responsible for. (My taxes should go up because someone else built a factory or office building on the next plot over? Ridiculous.)
Title: Re: Honesty about property taxes in NH
Post by: Gary T on March 20, 2009, 02:16:32 am
F'Chrissake, a bunch of libertarians here trying to justify, arbitrarily, what should constitute a good property tax?

Taxes are collectivists' versions of user fees, the biggest problem with that way of charging user fees, is the wiggle room for graft, special interest, creative accounting, and noble sounding oratory. The problem with anything collectivist is that it intentionally loses track of, and tries to make independent, the billing versus the costing of government services.

To make a proper property "tax", that comports with Libertarian values, is very simple:  tally up all the costs of all the services that the local municipality provides to the local citizens/residents, and divide that cost among all the citizens/residents, in value proportional to the amount of land a given resident has. The more land the more tax, and it would ignore whatever the resident decided to build on the land - none of that subjective "your property is worth more because you have a more beautiful view" crap, or "you have McMansion on it, so we will charge you more" bullsht.
It doesn't cost the town any more to have the police patrol your land if it has a mansion on it, or if it has a 1 room shack. But if there is more land, then there would be more services served by the town for that property. Same goes for fire, roadside maintenence, or whatever else the town provides.

This way it takes all subjectiveness out of the equation, doesn't penalize anyone for improving their property/land, and is unassailably fair.

Simple and obvious, we have just been so brainwashed by our governments that this simple paradigm of taxation seems so strange that we don't even think of it.

(Hoping to live in Manchester, in an apartment with a veranda overlooking the streets. A dream that may come true some day.)
Title: Re: Honesty about property taxes in NH
Post by: J’raxis 270145 on March 20, 2009, 02:29:08 am
Welcome, garyonthenet. ;D

The only “fair” way to distribute the costs of municipal services is to charge the users thereof directly, based on how much they use. Just because someone has more land doesn’t mean they need more water or sewage service, doesn’t mean they generate more trash to be picked up, &c..
Title: Re: Honesty about property taxes in NH
Post by: Gary T on March 20, 2009, 03:29:13 am
J'raxis:

You are of course technically correct, and your cited method is even simpler in corrollation of use/cost than mine.

The difficulty I see may be in the application. If we are to live in a municipality that provides "common" services to its resident citizens, then the billing method might be considered a common cost also.
This too is a form of collectivism, but more as conceptual matter, not as a matter of redistribution of wealth.

The payments here (in my method of taxation) might be viewed along the lines of how we pay for insurance - the premiums charged are the smeared out price of all the costs of the claims divided by the number of persons insured. (also weighted for proven risk, amount of risk, and the addition of the insurance company's profit margin)
Or like the price of a single first class envelope, the cost is the same whether sending it to alaska or across the street.
Or, like having a membership fee in a health club - the cost is the same each month whether you use it every day,  or once a month (or not at all), it is the right to use it ad hoc that you are paying for.

The advantage is no one has to micromanage what exactly one's usage is, and one is entitled to unlimited usage inherent in the payment.
Many of the services a town provides, are based upon these usage premises; fire and police services are only used in emergency circumstances that are infrequent, road maintanence is provided as a "available-for-use" service, not something you have to use but is there if you need it.
Garbage collection, even when privately provided, uses this model of billing. Even if you don't have garbage for that week, it doesn't mean you don't get charged.
Additionally, all the users' fees' (taxes) go down if they (collectively) use the services less. So there is a proportionality element to it as well.

(Also, thanx for welcoming me!)

 ::)PS: My initial post is a simplified subset of the more comprehensive, and more libertarian, schemata for charging for municipal services that I had developed. I just didn't want to take up too much time, and lose people's interest by overstating the solution.
The set of options for such billing would be to give the citizen/resident the choice of collective billing (of the type I mention above), or one of ad hoc service billing.
The ad hoc service billing would be free if the services are not used, but when they are used the cost would be correspondingly higher, much as an uninsured homeowner would incur a greater instant cost if his house burned down vs an insured homeowner who would just have to pay that month's premium.
And finally, funding would also come from those who had used the town's services, and who were not residents - who would pay in the form of daily use fees, or fines if found using them w/o paying prior usage fees. Fines would also be levied against residents using services and not paying for them.
Title: Re: Honesty about property taxes in NH
Post by: Porcupine Realtor on March 20, 2009, 07:15:40 am
Back to the theme of the original poster's comments:
1.  There are taxes everywhere, but the overall burden is relatively low in NH. 
2.  You can rent a home or apartment inexpensively here.
3.  There are several rural counties/towns with very low tax burdens -- live there and be happy.
4.  "Public transportation" is a system of redistribution of wealth; buses and trains are invariably subsidized by people who don't use them.

Move to NH and help us reduce government spending, leading to lower property taxes!  With the money you save on taxes, you can afford the best snow tires.

Taxinator/Porcupine Realtor
Title: Re: Honesty about property taxes in NH
Post by: lloydbob1 on March 20, 2009, 07:19:44 am
 ;D
Title: Re: Honesty about property taxes in NH
Post by: WendellBerry on March 20, 2009, 08:46:25 am
To make a proper property "tax", that comports with Libertarian values, is very simple:  tally up all the costs of all the services that the local municipality provides to the local citizens/residents, and divide that cost among all the citizens/residents, in value proportional to the amount of land a given resident has. The more land the more tax, and it would ignore whatever the resident decided to build on the land - none of that subjective "your property is worth more because you have a more beautiful view" crap, or "you have McMansion on it, so we will charge you more" bullsht.
It doesn't cost the town any more to have the police patrol your land if it has a mansion on it, or if it has a 1 room shack. But if there is more land, then there would be more services served by the town for that property. Same goes for fire, roadside maintenence, or whatever else the town provides.

This way it takes all subjectiveness out of the equation, doesn't penalize anyone for improving their property/land, and is unassailably fair.

A location's value (not land area) is nothing more than the economic advantage the site natural accrues due to the location's proximity to the labor and services of others...this includes natural advantage (views) and socially created advantages (roads/schools/services).

If this natural advantage is collected by the locational owner it can only come at the expense of the labor of those excluded as they are forced to some other location that is not as "economically advantageous" as subjectively determined by those who are forced to locate there.
Title: Re: Honesty about property taxes in NH
Post by: Russell Kanning on March 20, 2009, 08:50:11 am
you would have to ignore much of the content of this forum to think that NH has low property taxes.
Look up real estate online and it tells you right there last years taxes. It is not that hard.
Property taxes are too high in every part of NH, but some are better than others.
We are recruiting activists to NH ... a place that has less taxes than most. Join us if you want the action. :)
Title: Re: Honesty about property taxes in NH
Post by: sonio on March 20, 2009, 11:57:43 pm
I would imagine not doing the research on one's own into taxes of any kind if one is planning on moving would be highly irresponsible...



But that is just me.
Title: Re: Honesty about property taxes in NH
Post by: Porcupine The Godful Heathen on March 21, 2009, 08:58:03 am
Back to the theme of the original poster's comments:
1.  There are taxes everywhere, but the overall burden is relatively low in NH. 
2.  You can rent a home or apartment inexpensively here.
3.  There are several rural counties/towns with very low tax burdens -- live there and be happy.
4.  "Public transportation" is a system of redistribution of wealth; buses and trains are invariably subsidized by people who don't use them.

Move to NH and help us reduce government spending, leading to lower property taxes!  With the money you save on taxes, you can afford the best snow tires.

Taxinator/Porcupine Realtor
<--------- What Mark said.
Title: Re: Honesty about property taxes in NH
Post by: Dreepa on March 21, 2009, 11:01:45 am
When I moved to NH I heard 'oh they have high property taxes' many many many times.
My friends in upstate NY pay 2x what I pay.  I know people in Philly area who pay a little more than me...(plus income and sales tax).

So NH property taxes are NOT that high...and they are locally controlled and YOU can have an effect on them.

Oh.. and went I visit CA..people can't believe we don't have an income or sales tax.   :D
Title: Re: Honesty about property taxes in NH
Post by: Brettp76 on March 21, 2009, 04:13:56 pm
I take the view that with property taxes at least you have some flexibility - you know where the rates are highest and obviously you don't have to buy a $500K house. Additionally, the bulk of NH property taxes are collected and spent at the city and county level. People feel much more empowered to call their local rep and/or get involved when politics is local rather than at the State and certainly the Federal level.

NH taxes are low for most people but for those that don't take advantage of the income tax and must, for whatever reason, own a larger home and/or land, NH can be taxing. Generally speaking, however, taxes should be much more of a reason to move to NH rather than to avoid it.

Title: Re: Honesty about property taxes in NH
Post by: Luck on March 21, 2009, 04:34:30 pm
* Taxes are authoritarian. Libertarians claim to be non-authoritarian. Therefore, Libertarians should oppose all taxes.
Title: Re: Honesty about property taxes in NH
Post by: lloydbob1 on March 21, 2009, 06:28:11 pm
Recently, I've been to a school district deliberative session and another for the town. The one for the school district was packed with teachers, their relatives and sycophants. They wanted an extra 200,000 for the bonuses that teachers get as they take courses to keep up with the latest methods for indoctrinating children. It was actually argued that 'These Economic times are hard on teachers, ya know!"
As the economy worsens, people loose jobs, foreclosures ensue, (perhaps even tax foreclosures) these deliberative sessions will change.  If they come back year after year with these increases people will be talking Tar and Feathers. Taxes will have to drop.  Town governments will just have to deal with it. Their employees will have to work for less or loose their jobs.  Citizens will go without some services.
Title: Re: Honesty about property taxes in NH
Post by: J’raxis 270145 on March 21, 2009, 06:54:24 pm
* Taxes are authoritarian. Libertarians claim to be non-authoritarian. Therefore, Libertarians should oppose all taxes.

+1
Title: Re: Honesty about property taxes in NH
Post by: Brettp76 on March 21, 2009, 08:26:38 pm
Not to say that I support property taxes. In fact, I don't see how you can call your house or land your property if you're required to make payments (taxes) on it..payments that can go up drastically against your will.
Title: Re: Honesty about property taxes in NH
Post by: Porcupine The Godful Heathen on March 21, 2009, 09:03:14 pm
In fact, I don't see how you can call your house or land your property if you're required to make payments (taxes) on it..payments that can go up drastically against your will.

Exactly.
Title: Re: Honesty about property taxes in NH
Post by: WendellBerry on March 21, 2009, 10:44:22 pm
Not to say that I support property taxes. In fact, I don't see how you can call your house or land your property if you're required to make payments (taxes) on it..payments that can go up drastically against your will.

Property right to locations are actually a bundle of rights - any of which can be alienated.
Title: Re: Honesty about property taxes in NH
Post by: MaineShark on March 22, 2009, 10:55:37 am
Property taxes in NH are too high.  Of course, if property taxes required the payment of one second's labor per year, I would still say that they are too high...

Not to say that I support property taxes. In fact, I don't see how you can call your house or land your property if you're required to make payments (taxes) on it..payments that can go up drastically against your will.
Property right to locations are actually a bundle of rights - any of which can be alienated.

Rights can only be infringed, not alienated.  All rights are actually self-ownership, and any appearance of multiple rights is merely a convenient image.  Violating any right violates the self-ownership of the one who holds that right.

Joe
Title: Re: Honesty about property taxes in NH
Post by: WendellBerry on March 22, 2009, 12:06:55 pm
Quote
Rights can only be infringed, not alienated.

They can be voluntarily alienated.
Title: Re: Honesty about property taxes in NH
Post by: MaineShark on March 22, 2009, 12:47:25 pm
Quote
Rights can only be infringed, not alienated.
They can be voluntarily alienated.

No.  Something is "alienated" from you by someone else's act, not your own voluntary act.

Joe
Title: Re: Honesty about property taxes in NH
Post by: WendellBerry on March 22, 2009, 12:54:00 pm
Quote
Rights can only be infringed, not alienated.
They can be voluntarily alienated.

No.  Something is "alienated" from you by someone else's act, not your own voluntary act.

I believe it just means something can be separated - the word itself contains no judgement on whether or not the person wants it to be or not.
Title: Re: Honesty about property taxes in NH
Post by: MaineShark on March 22, 2009, 01:01:49 pm
I believe it just means something can be separated - the word itself contains no judgement on whether or not the person wants it to be or not.

There's a reason that "inalienable" and "inseparable" are both present within the language...  They don't mean the same thing.

Joe
Title: Re: Honesty about property taxes in NH
Post by: citizen_142002 on March 22, 2009, 01:10:12 pm
I think you can make a case that taxing corporations is not and initiation of force. Corporations are legal fictions created by government. Government is their creator and does have a legitimate ability to claim a portion of the income generated by a corporation as its own. That of course assumes that you are OK with the state creating a legal entity with limited liability.

The case can also be made that if you had a government that was limited to the defense of life, liberty, and property you could require payment of taxes/military service in exchange for the franchise. in other words you could freely choose to not pay taxes or serve the state, but you would not be able to vote, hold office, or be appointed to a government post.

Those are a couple of systems that essentially make taxation voluntary. Of course there are downsides to both of those examples, and the market anarchists here will argue that as long as their is a monopolistic government and not competition you'll have an imperfect system. I'm not a believer that you'll ever have a perfect system, and I think that being very free is still an improvement over serfdom even if you're not completely free.
Title: Re: Honesty about property taxes in NH
Post by: WendellBerry on March 22, 2009, 01:11:37 pm
I believe it just means something can be separated - the word itself contains no judgement on whether or not the person wants it to be or not.

There's a reason that "inalienable" and "inseparable" are both present within the language...  They don't mean the same thing.


"incapable of being alienated, surrendered, or transferred"
Title: Re: Honesty about property taxes in NH
Post by: WendellBerry on March 22, 2009, 01:20:47 pm

Those are a couple of systems that essentially make taxation voluntary. Of course there are downsides to both of those examples, and the market anarchists here will argue that as long as their is a monopolistic government and not competition you'll have an imperfect system. I'm not a believer that you'll ever have a perfect system, and I think that being very free is still an improvement over serfdom even if you're not completely free.

Maybe the best we can hope for regarding individual freedom is a system in which no one is subject to arbitrary force which is the reason that we left a state of nature (where force is arbitrary - might makes right) to form a civic society.

It then becomes a debate between classical liberalism's ideal of free will to contract vs. civic republican's ideal of achieving freedom by practicing virtuous behavior within small-scale, deliberative, civic bodies.

Anarchists fall within classical liberalism's definition.
Minarchists fall within civic republican's definition.

You should also be aware though that civic republicans had an egalitarian view of productive property so that citizens entered the deliberations as equals.
Title: Re: Honesty about property taxes in NH
Post by: sj on March 22, 2009, 04:32:05 pm
Quote
Rights can only be infringed, not alienated.
They can be voluntarily alienated.

No.  Something is "alienated" from you by someone else's act, not your own voluntary act.

Joe

I just looked it up in the dictionary.  None of the four definitions said anything about alienation having to be from the act of a third person.
Title: Re: Honesty about property taxes in NH
Post by: MaineShark on March 22, 2009, 05:59:33 pm
I just looked it up in the dictionary.  None of the four definitions said anything about alienation having to be from the act of a third person.

"The" dictionary is not a citation.  If you are going to claim that you just looked something up, supporting that with the actual reference would be helpful.

For example, the following is from Webster's:

Quote
Alienate - transitive verb

1 : to make unfriendly, hostile, or indifferent especially where attachment formerly existed
2 : to convey or transfer (as property or a right) usually by a specific act rather than the due course of law
3 : to cause to be withdrawn or diverted
synonyms see estrange

And, of course, common usage is even stronger on the third-party aspect.  Ask someone on the street why "inalienable rights" are important, and nine times out of ten, you'll get an answer along the lines of "those are rights that no one can take away from you."

Joe
Title: Re: Honesty about property taxes in NH
Post by: D. Stewart on March 22, 2009, 07:41:28 pm
Ask someone on the street why "inalienable rights" are important, and nine times out of ten, you'll get an answer along the lines of "those are rights that no one can take away from you."

Unless the street is outside of NH, in which case four times out of ten you'll be ignored and five times you'll get a strange look.
Title: Re: Honesty about property taxes in NH
Post by: Gary T on March 22, 2009, 11:08:28 pm

A location's value (not land area) is nothing more than the economic advantage the site natural accrues due to the location's proximity to the labor and services of others...this includes natural advantage (views) and socially created advantages (roads/schools/services).

If this natural advantage is collected by the locational owner it can only come at the expense of the labor of those excluded as they are forced to some other location that is not as "economically advantageous" as subjectively determined by those who are forced to locate there.

Well that's a very nice method of valuating a piece of property, and it may be useful when an owner decides to sell his property to another private buyer, but it should have NO place in determining what an owner's property tax should be.
Despite that that is the usual method used by statist minded civil servants in determining property taxes, a municipality is not in the business of renting out plots of land within its jurisdiction and basing those rents on whatever the market can bear, or what a property is worth on the private market.
From a services provider role, a municipality is a non-profit organization that provides common necessary utilities that support the residents of that locale; as such all it SHOULD be charging for in total is the exact amount it costs to provide those services, apportioned rationally to the respective residents.
It peeves me no end that tax assessors have the gumption of determining my annual property tax, not based on how much it costs the town to service me, but on a  paradigm of how much it looks like I can afford - i.e., prevailing market value worth, combined with a whole slew of subjective/arbitrary guesstimates that enhance such tax rates (e.g. A Cape style house vs a Contemporary or Ranch; whether I have a "nice" view of a mountain, or architectural shingles vs a tin roof; whether I live near a city, or anything else unrelated to the actual cost of providing me services).
Title: Re: Honesty about property taxes in NH
Post by: WendellBerry on March 22, 2009, 11:44:53 pm

A location's value (not land area) is nothing more than the economic advantage the site natural accrues due to the location's proximity to the labor and services of others...this includes natural advantage (views) and socially created advantages (roads/schools/services).

If this natural advantage is collected by the locational owner it can only come at the expense of the labor of those excluded as they are forced to some other location that is not as "economically advantageous" as subjectively determined by those who are forced to locate there.

Well that's a very nice method of valuating a piece of property, and it may be useful when an owner decides to sell his property to another private buyer, but it should have NO place in determining what an owner's property tax should be.
Despite that that is the usual method used by statist minded civil servants in determining property taxes, a municipality is not in the business of renting out plots of land within its jurisdiction and basing those rents on whatever the market can bear, or what a property is worth on the private market.
From a services provider role, a municipality is a non-profit organization that provides common necessary utilities that support the residents of that locale; as such all it SHOULD be charging for in total is the exact amount it costs to provide those services, apportioned rationally to the respective residents.
It peeves me no end that tax assessors have the gumption of determining my annual property tax, not based on how much it costs the town to service me, but on a  paradigm of how much it looks like I can afford - i.e., prevailing market value worth, combined with a whole slew of subjective/arbitrary guesstimates that enhance such tax rates (e.g. A Cape style house vs a Contemporary or Ranch; whether I have a "nice" view of a mountain, or architectural shingles vs a tin roof; whether I live near a city, or anything else unrelated to the actual cost of providing me services).

You are confusing personal utility value and market value.
Title: Re: Honesty about property taxes in NH
Post by: Gary T on March 23, 2009, 01:26:55 am

Well that's a very nice method of valuating a piece of property, and it may be useful when an owner decides to sell his property to another private buyer, but it should have NO place in determining what an owner's property tax should be.
Despite that that is the usual method used by statist minded civil servants in determining property taxes, a municipality is not in the business of renting out plots of land within its jurisdiction and basing those rents on whatever the market can bear, or what a property is worth on the private market.
From a services provider role, a municipality is a non-profit organization that provides common necessary utilities that support the residents of that locale; as such all it SHOULD be charging for in total is the exact amount it costs to provide those services, apportioned rationally to the respective residents.
It peeves me no end that tax assessors have the gumption of determining my annual property tax, not based on how much it costs the town to service me, but on a  paradigm of how much it looks like I can afford - i.e., prevailing market value worth, combined with a whole slew of subjective/arbitrary guesstimates that enhance such tax rates (e.g. A Cape style house vs a Contemporary or Ranch; whether I have a "nice" view of a mountain, or architectural shingles vs a tin roof; whether I live near a city, or anything else unrelated to the actual cost of providing me services).

You are confusing personal utility value and market value.

You are confusing the context, and meaning therein, of what I am talking about.
Title: Re: Honesty about property taxes in NH
Post by: Moving_on_up on March 24, 2009, 07:01:09 pm
Nothing gets my blood boiling than to hear about property taxes.  In NC, people who have called this State home for 30 yrs are being driven out of their homes through property, gas, and sales taxes.  The rich Yankee liberal transplants who taxed themselves out of NJ, RI, MA etc are now finding heaven in NC.  Unfortunately, these scumbags still vote liberal.  Ignorance is so costly!  Now, on a $300,000 home in Durham, NC, you can expect to pay $400 per month.  It is higher in Chapel Hill, NC (home of the #1 ranked Tarheels, Go Heels) !   The odious tax assessor appraise land values higher every eight years or so!  In Greensboro, my mother in law pays $150 per month for a $184,000 home!!!  I told her that is $150 too much, and we should move to NH where we can change things.  ...the cold, the cold...  I urge the FSP in NH to change the tax laws there so there are NO taxes of ANY kind period, only voluntary donations to the State. 
Title: Re: Honesty about property taxes in NH
Post by: Luck on March 24, 2009, 07:14:09 pm
Quote
NO taxes of ANY kind period, only voluntary donations to the State
* That's my thinking too. And I'm not just a thinker; I intend to do all I can to manifest that asap.
Title: Re: Honesty about property taxes in NH
Post by: Dreepa on March 24, 2009, 09:14:10 pm
I urge the FSP in NH to change the tax laws there so there are NO taxes of ANY kind period, only voluntary donations to the State. 
The FSP won't do anything...but movers will and it will need many movers and NATIVES to lower taxes.  It will be quite some time before we see NO taxes.
Title: Re: Honesty about property taxes in NH
Post by: sonio on March 24, 2009, 09:29:41 pm
The oly point of the FSP is to get liberty minded people up to NH.

Political decisions and affiliations are up to the liberty minded people, not the FSP.

 ;D
Title: Re: Honesty about property taxes in NH
Post by: Moving_on_up on March 24, 2009, 10:54:21 pm


Quote
NO taxes of ANY kind period, only voluntary donations to the State
* That's my thinking too. And I'm not just a thinker; I intend to do all I can to manifest that asap.

God willing, in addition to NO TAXES, how about no speed limit, no zoning, no EPA, no Departments of any kind.  No Welfare. No government schools.  Fire 95% of the government employees.  Just FREEDOM!!  I see me pumping gas with a side arm showing.    8)  I agree the FSP is just a brand name, it is conservatism that is the sole of the movement.

Title: Re: Honesty about property taxes in NH
Post by: lloydbob1 on March 25, 2009, 05:50:53 am

  I see me pumping gas with a side arm showing.   

You can already do that.
Title: Re: Honesty about property taxes in NH
Post by: Luck on March 25, 2009, 08:36:47 am
Quote
no zoning, no EPA, no Departments of any kind.  No Welfare. No government schools.  Fire 95% of the government employees
* I agree, but the people can and probably should organize non-authoritarianly to provide each other needed services.
Title: Re: Honesty about property taxes in NH
Post by: nemosgypsy on March 25, 2009, 11:21:20 pm
   Being away from NH I have learned a few things about taxes, including property taxes. NH has absorbent property taxes in some parts of the state, if not all and I am wondering if the FSP is informing people who are moving from out of state about these property taxes.

Thank you for your post.  I'm not trying to attack you so please don't take this as a personal attack.  My thoughts follow.

The FSP is just a bus to move people to NH.  It doesn't really info people about that many things except for the statement of intent and a few other things.

Individual members of the FSP however, do inform folks.  No one is trying to pretend that NH is perfect.  For example. Manchester, NH was just rated the 2nd lowest taxed city in the nation.  A city in AK was rated the lowest.  So we are well aware that NH doesn't have the lowest taxes overall.  Heck, there are parts of AK without income, sales, or property taxes and member you are paid to live there.

Quote
I know of many families who moved away from NH so that they could purchase an affordable house with little to no property tax.


That's one way to do it.  Another way is to work to lower the property taxes.  As you know, the voters of most towns have huge influence on what the tax rates are as the help set the budget.  However, I recommend families do whatever they think is best. 

Quote
Yes other states have income and sales tax both or one of the other, so where does NH get its money? From high property tax that's where.

That is more or less true.  Most states have both a state income and a state sales tax.  NH has a bunch of minor taxes and high property taxes.  Of course, almost all towns outside of NH also have property taxes.  In fact, in some areas, the property taxes are even higher than in NH.  For example, not only do properties in Boston cost much more than NH (plus residents have to pay income and sales tax), but the property taxes are also higher.  People in NJ tend to also pay higher property taxes.  Many people in NY, RI, CT, VT, ME, and OR also pay higher property taxes.  While people in CA tend not to have high property taxes, there are a ton of minor taxes and the income and sales taxes can get over 10% in some areas.

On the other hand, the town I live in is much different.  Much of the taxes in my town are paid for by companies and not individual property taxes.  So even in NH, things may vary greatly from town to town. 

Quote
    A friend of mine purchased a farm house in rural Wear NH, the property tax was 1,500 a year. Her and her husband renovated the house with their own time and money, to make it their own. One day the tax assessor man came, a wolf in sheep's clothing, saw their efforts, naive husband proud of his work, and the tax man well he increased their property tax from 1,500 a year to a whopping 6,000 a year.


Pristine houses tend to be worth more than dilapidated buildings.  Subsequently, people owning them tend to have higher property tax bills.  In this way, many towns seem to reward people who don't keep their house in good condition with lower property tax bills.  Of course, you can always fight a property tax bill.  It may be even more effective to get to the route of the problem, the out of control spending in some of the towns.

Quote
If you are inticing people to come because NH has no income or sales tax, you should also inform them of the high property taxes, no public transportation (if you do not have reliable transportation or a drivers license you are in a bad situation the winters are rough and NH is rura
l), poor education, awful health care etc.

I am enticing people to move to NH as part of the Free State Project.  I understand that no state is perfect or will become perfect with a snap of my fingers.  The FSP members looked at 10 states to see which was the best for the project.  We then voted and NH was selected.

About the issues you bring up, though.

NH has the 2nd lowest overall taxes.
NH has public transportation in several areas including Manchester and the Seacoast.
NH (and New England in general) tends to lead the nation in education.
NH has one of the healthiest populations in the nation (I thing 2nd) and has one of the top hospitals in the nation.

Quote
     My family owns property in NH and it's not the greatest, we pay 1,600 a year and there have been many a year we had to break the bank to cover heating and property taxes, mortgage etc. I am against sales and income tax however I am just keeping it honest, because prospective movers might not expect all this when they come.


All of the facts are out there.  There is a massive FSP website full of tons of info.  There are welcome wagon folks to answer all questions.  There is this forum where people are encouraged to ask questions.  There is even a prospective participants sub forum, as you know since we are posting on it.  No one is trying to hide anything.

Quote
If they have large sums of money, income well, it doesn't matter I suppose. NH is the sixth richest state in the country, but there is many an old money and those who will keep it that way, all I am saying is people from other states may have difficulty gaining footing, and I must again emphasize reliable transportation, your cars will rust, your engines will stall your gas lines will freeze, 4wheel drive, snow tires a must. NH is rough living indeed but builds character, that I will never regret.

Through criagslist, classified ads, and porcmanor.com people are able to move to NH and rent rooms from $300-$700 per month, all over the state.  NH isn't a very expensive state to live in (much cheaper than MA, CA, AK, HI, CT, RI, NY, NJ for most people).  You can buy a house for under $150,000 in most of the state.  You can buy a 2 bedroom condo in Concord for less than $70,000 (I know, my friend has one).

I agree that reliable transportation is needed if you don't live in one of the dozens of towns or cities (Keene, Manchester, Derry, Portsmouth. Dover, Seabrook, Newport, Berlin, Concord, Hampton. Hampton Falls, Exeter...) where it is easy enough to walk around from certain areas.  My engine didn't stall and my gasline didn't freeze this winter.  However, it only got -4 or so where I live at the coldest.  I understand it gets down to -30 or so from time to time, depending on where you live.  Of course, if you are worried, you can get a vehicle which is plugged in at night.  I don't have 4 wheel drive or snow tires.  I think they are useful; however, they are usually not needed - it depends on your driving habits.

Overall, I agree with you.  While the government of NH is smaller than most and leaves you alone more than most, NH has more nature induced problems than some other areas of the nation.  While NH isn't as wild as AK, WY, MT, ND, SD, VT, or ME, it does have obstacles and changing weather which should be planned for.  NH is far from perfect, but it seems damn good to me!

Title: Re: Honesty about property taxes in NH
Post by: nemosgypsy on March 25, 2009, 11:30:20 pm
No offense taken, it's been an intriguing debate that somehow got lost in semantics. Take care of NH she has been in my family since the 1800's.
Title: Re: Honesty about property taxes in NH
Post by: Gary T on December 17, 2009, 08:31:51 am
* Taxes are authoritarian. Libertarians claim to be non-authoritarian. Therefore, Libertarians should oppose all taxes.


A cow is an animal.

A cat is an animal.

Therefore all cats are cows.
Title: Re: Honesty about property taxes in NH
Post by: JasonPSorens on December 17, 2009, 09:05:17 am
* Taxes are authoritarian. Libertarians claim to be non-authoritarian. Therefore, Libertarians should oppose all taxes.


A cow is an animal.

A cat is an animal.

Therefore all cats are cows.

His reasoning isn't fallacious, although not watertight. Tightened up, the syllogism might look like this:

1. All taxes are authoritarian.
2. No true libertarian supports anything authoritarian.
Therefore, no true libertarian supports taxes.

The argument is valid, but is it sound? I question the major premiss, at least if "tax" also refers to fees charged by consensually organized governments.
Title: Re: Honesty about property taxes in NH
Post by: Dreepa on December 17, 2009, 09:16:47 am
* Taxes are authoritarian. Libertarians claim to be non-authoritarian. Therefore, Libertarians should oppose all taxes.


A cow is an animal.

A cat is an animal.

Therefore all cats are cows.

His reasoning isn't fallacious, although not watertight. Tightened up, the syllogism might look like this:

1. All taxes are authoritarian.
2. No true libertarian supports anything authoritarian.
Therefore, no true libertarian supports taxes.

The argument is valid, but is it sound? I question the major premiss, at least if "tax" also refers to fees charged by consensually organized governments.

so then I ask this.

The town budget is $1M
You work with others and reduce the town budget to $900,000.  (10% reduction)... you support this new budget.

You are 'supporting' taxes but they are 10% lower.....

Some 'libertarians' say you are 'supporting' taxes therefore you are a statist.
Some 'libertarians' say you did a great job getting it down 10%... keep going next year.

Who is right?

Libertarians will never be happy with other Libertarians. 
Title: Re: Honesty about property taxes in NH
Post by: JasonPSorens on December 17, 2009, 09:42:09 am
* Taxes are authoritarian. Libertarians claim to be non-authoritarian. Therefore, Libertarians should oppose all taxes.


A cow is an animal.

A cat is an animal.

Therefore all cats are cows.

His reasoning isn't fallacious, although not watertight. Tightened up, the syllogism might look like this:

1. All taxes are authoritarian.
2. No true libertarian supports anything authoritarian.
Therefore, no true libertarian supports taxes.

The argument is valid, but is it sound? I question the major premiss, at least if "tax" also refers to fees charged by consensually organized governments.

so then I ask this.

The town budget is $1M
You work with others and reduce the town budget to $900,000.  (10% reduction)... you support this new budget.

You are 'supporting' taxes but they are 10% lower.....

Some 'libertarians' say you are 'supporting' taxes therefore you are a statist.
Some 'libertarians' say you did a great job getting it down 10%... keep going next year.

Who is right?

Libertarians will never be happy with other Libertarians. 

Local governments are only "sorta" consensual, so I favor keeping them as lean and trim as possible. Don't see how anyone with a lick of sense could see activism that obtains a tax cut as "supporting taxes."
Title: Re: Honesty about property taxes in NH
Post by: WendellBerry on December 17, 2009, 11:32:43 am
* Taxes are authoritarian. Libertarians claim to be non-authoritarian. Therefore, Libertarians should oppose all taxes.


A cow is an animal.

A cat is an animal.

Therefore all cats are cows.

His reasoning isn't fallacious, although not watertight. Tightened up, the syllogism might look like this:

1. All taxes are authoritarian.
2. No true libertarian supports anything authoritarian.
Therefore, no true libertarian supports taxes.

The argument is valid, but is it sound? I question the major premiss, at least if "tax" also refers to fees charged by consensually organized governments.

Locational taxes can be looked at as fees for the value that the community creates (the proximity to the lanbor and services of others, public infrastructure, natural landforms, etc) for the location you occupy.

Of course they are only consensual like you have a choice in occupying a location or not.
Title: Re: Honesty about property taxes in NH
Post by: John Edward Mercier on December 17, 2009, 03:36:18 pm
That is pretty much what our property taxes in NH are.
The only one that is truly not is the Statewide Property Tax... but that is currently not transferred to an outside community.
Title: Re: Honesty about property taxes in NH
Post by: Dreepa on December 17, 2009, 03:37:50 pm


Local governments are only "sorta" consensual, so I favor keeping them as lean and trim as possible. Don't see how anyone with a lick of sense could see activism that obtains a tax cut as "supporting taxes."
Come on... you have been on these forums...  ;)
Title: Re: Honesty about property taxes in NH
Post by: rabbit20 on December 17, 2009, 03:47:25 pm
While people in CA tend not to have high property taxes, there are a ton of minor taxes and the income and sales taxes can get over 10% in some areas.

I can vouch for that one! I live in Los Angels County and the taxes taken out of my check (before i got laid off) was about 28%  then there was the o so nice 10% sales tax! I don't have a home so I don't know what the property tax is but I know my parents pay a shit load! When I was on unemployment they wanted me to hold 15% for taxes so that I wouldn't have to pay them later.
Title: Re: Honesty about property taxes in NH
Post by: KhanIndustries on December 29, 2009, 12:46:33 am
I was looking at some of the real estate sites that deal in homes for sale in NH. I'm not sure where you come from but compared to where I come from (New Jersey), NH is much, much cheaper in terms of property taxes. To give you an example, I have a regular house, nothing special and I looked at houses of the same type on NH Realty Sites.. and in my community of a very small town (employing 15 police officers, 3 detectives and a cheif for god sakes).. but anyway my yearly property taxes are just a tad over $6500/yr. We also have sales and state income tax on top of that. Finally, on to top it off... we have toll roads almost EVERYWHERE.

I can't speak for other states though so you may have a different view depending on where you come from.
Title: Re: Honesty about property taxes in NH
Post by: Bazil on January 04, 2010, 04:37:41 pm
I was looking at some of the real estate sites that deal in homes for sale in NH. I'm not sure where you come from but compared to where I come from (New Jersey), NH is much, much cheaper in terms of property taxes. To give you an example, I have a regular house, nothing special and I looked at houses of the same type on NH Realty Sites.. and in my community of a very small town (employing 15 police officers, 3 detectives and a cheif for god sakes).. but anyway my yearly property taxes are just a tad over $6500/yr. We also have sales and state income tax on top of that. Finally, on to top it off... we have toll roads almost EVERYWHERE.

I can't speak for other states though so you may have a different view depending on where you come from.

I think NH has the third highest property taxes, with CT beating it out slightly, and NJ being, by far, the worst.  If you like to keep your money NJ is a bad state to live in.
Title: Re: Honesty about property taxes in NH
Post by: freedomroad on January 04, 2010, 05:18:28 pm
I think NH has the third highest property taxes, with CT beating it out slightly, and NJ being, by far, the worst.  If you like to keep your money NJ is a bad state to live in.

It depends how you look at it.  If you go by average amount paid, the Northeast and especially VT, ME, NH, MA, NY, CT, RI and NJ tend to have some of the highest property taxes in the nation.  CA and OR are about there too.  Among those states, it various from town to town.  Heck, in NH alone if various from around $3000 to $7000 for average amount paid per town.  And that is just averages.  Some people in town X may pay $2000 a year while other people in that same town may pay $7000 a year.  By average amount paid, selected towns in most large metro areas have high property taxes. 

If you go by rates, that various quite a bit too.  There are differences from state to state and town to town.  NJ, NY and NH tend to have the worst rates, from what I've seen.  Some people in southern CT may pay a lot more property tax than what is typical of NH but there are a lot of people living in very pricey houses in southern CT.

City-data.com, even with much of the info out of date, is by far the best site I've found to look up this type of information.