Free State Project Forum

FSP -- General Discussion => The Friendly Forum => Topic started by: tranquility on October 17, 2007, 01:27:42 pm

Title: FSP Project doesn't seem very Muslim-friendly...
Post by: tranquility on October 17, 2007, 01:27:42 pm
Hi everyone. I've visited your site on & off after I first discovered it some years ago. I don't remember if I registered and/or posted back then, so Ive signed up again.

My views are generally libertarian, and I am a Ron Paul supporter. Growing up in a Christian (well, not really church-going) home with parents who listened to conservative radio like Rush Limbaugh for years, I always believed in small government and the "live and let live" philosophy.

My husband and I are both concerned about what is going on in America in the last decade, in particular since 9-11, and how the conservatives are no longer pushing for low taxes, small government, individual liberties and privacy.... that our federal government is too big and overbearing in recent years. Scary!

That's why I was so excited on finding this group. I thought it was amazing that so many people would band together and actually do something to bring back freedom & liberty... to actually create a place to live where liberty is valued and fought for.

On perusing this site today, the first topic I noticed was someone asking if blacks are welcome. I was pleased to see the responses to that post.  So I decided to do a search to see how FSP members feel about Muslims.  I figured, with the "live and let live" philosophy the members would be accepting and more educated about Islam/ Muslims -- by definition, it seems liberty-loving folks tend not to buy the b.s. in the media/govt propaganda.

Well, I guess I was wrong. The few posts I found focusing on Muslims (albeit many are older posts) are quite derogatory, vilifying Muslims and Islam. Even the more "tolerant" views still make it sound like Muslims are violent outcasts, and would be "accepted" only if they controlled their religiosity (something along those lines).

The information about Islam and the Quran mentioned in the posts is mostly inaccurate, too, and some of the info members posted comes from people known to be anti-Muslim (eg Cal Thomas), for example stating that the Quran says Muslims are allowed to harm their non-Muslim neighbors (which Muslims are forbidden from doing because neighbors have a whole list of rights), how they want to stop others from having their rights (Islam sets up a system to protect rights, especially against oppressors) etc... like I said, much misinformation was posted which sounds like parroting of the mainstream media.

So my question here is, do you welcome devout Muslims?

Or is FSP only a place for Christians, atheists, Jews, Buddhists and all other religious/non-religious people EXCEPT Muslims?



Title: Re: FSP Project doesn't seem very Muslim-friendly...
Post by: Soundwave on October 17, 2007, 02:19:36 pm
There are PLENTY of people in the FSP who are tolerant of all peaceful people, and I'm one of them. I welcome anyone who loves liberty to NH.
Title: Re: FSP Project doesn't seem very Muslim-friendly...
Post by: sj on October 17, 2007, 02:27:24 pm
You may find this post  (http://newhampshireunderground.com/forum/index.php?topic=10864.0) over at Forum.NHFree.com interesting.

Any liberty-loving people are a-ok in my book  :)
Title: Re: FSP Project doesn't seem very Muslim-friendly...
Post by: Denis Goddard on October 17, 2007, 03:43:27 pm
The Political Director of the NH Liberty Alliance (http://nhliberty.org) is also a member of the NH House of Representatives.
He has introduced a "Religious Freedom Restoration Act (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_freedom_restoration_act)" bill for the coming legislative session.

I think you'll find a lot of religious tolerance here.
Personally, I'm an atheist... that doesn't stop me from working closely with christians, hindus, or anyone else, since we're all working together to achieve a society in which government does not impose its morals on anyone else. It's really quite -- liberating!
Title: Re: FSP Project doesn't seem very Muslim-friendly...
Post by: lasse on October 17, 2007, 05:02:42 pm
I don't care what Invisible Man in the Sky you believe in as long as you don't use force to proliferate your views onto others.

If you searched for discussion on Christianity you'd find some non-politically correct bashing there as well. Some of us grew up with the police state mandating Christian education and church attendance. Guess why I'm not so enthusiastic about Christianity. It was actually the first thing that made me aware of the use of force, coercion and indoctrination, the way they pushed their compulsory church days on us in primary school. Their tactics backfired, I guess.
Title: Re: FSP Project doesn't seem very Muslim-friendly...
Post by: lastlady on October 17, 2007, 05:27:45 pm
There are all kinds of people who are apart of the FSP. You will even find Socialists who love paying taxes and want us all to do the same. You will find Christians who are very hostile towards non believers. You will find loving peaceful people and angry closed minded people. Like a few have said before me, the FSP is just a bus, once you get to the free state it is up to you to do what you wish.

I have found there is no paradise within any group. I am always happy when I meet people I can relate to because it is an experience that doesn't happen that often.

Title: Re: FSP Project doesn't seem very Muslim-friendly...
Post by: LibertyforLife on October 17, 2007, 07:19:58 pm
I don't know enough about Islam to really have an opinion. I think that religious fanaticism is bad no matter the religion, or absence of one. I am a pagan. Like most people here, I'm accepting of everyone who wants more liberty, regardless of religion. I have met a few people that I believe were Muslim and I seemed to get along with them. I wouldn't broadcast to the world my religion either, but if asked I respond with my belief system.

Sometimes I feel that we see what we want to see. I don't want to see terrorism so I don't see it and keep an open mind, especially when the media reports what the government says. Perhaps you see someone talking about Muslims in the negative when they actually meant extremists or fanatical or fringe Muslims. I don't think you can paint all Muslims with the same brush.

I'd be interested in learning more about Islam from those who are more well versed, such as practitioners. You will find Muslim haters in any group, just as you will find Christan haters(damn those Crusades), or even pagan haters too. That is the nature of liberty.

You are free to hate anyone you like, personally, I hate people who won't see reason when it smacks them in the face with a wet king salmon, that is part of having liberty. You are free to preach hatred as well, its another thing about liberty. The right to free speech doesn't exist to protect popular speech, but rather unpopular speech.

Of course, I distance myself from those who believe in spouting hate speech. I have the right to associate with anyone, and I choose not to associate with those who preach hatred.

You are welcome here, so long as you believe in liberty, you want more liberty, and you don't want to harm others.
Title: Re: FSP Project doesn't seem very Muslim-friendly...
Post by: CA_Libertarian on October 17, 2007, 10:55:03 pm
I don't care what Invisible Man in the Sky you believe in as long as you don't use force to proliferate your views onto others.

Amen to that!

So long as you don't violate my rights and you're for reducing government, I'll be happy to be your neighbor.
Title: Re: FSP Project doesn't seem very Muslim-friendly...
Post by: mattbarney on October 17, 2007, 11:24:15 pm
Welcome, Tranquility.  You'll find FSP members to be happy to respect your religion, as long as you respect others rights to their belief (or lack thereof).  Hope other freedom-loving muslims also join the free state....it would be great to have a "Free State" mosque run by freedom-loving porcupine muslims.

Matt
Title: Re: FSP Project doesn't seem very Muslim-friendly...
Post by: LibertyforLife on October 18, 2007, 09:11:39 am
I'd be interested in attended, if I could, just for the experience of it. I like culture immersion from time to time, its interesting.

I feel in better company with a liberty loving Muslim then any other Muslim, because at least I understand where they stand and that I have not to worry for my life, liberty, or property with the former.
Title: Re: FSP Project doesn't seem very Muslim-friendly...
Post by: Friday on October 18, 2007, 10:03:09 am
I won't lie to you.  There are some Free State Project participants, including leaders of various New Hampshire "pro-liberty" organizations and a former member of the FSP Board of Directors, who have been publicly making some very anti-Islamic remarks.  I find it really sad, but...  the FSP is about minimizing government, it's not necessarily about everybody loving each other.  :-\ Just know that plenty of FSP'ers are fair, open-minded, non-bigoted, and try to remember that everyone is an individual with free will, and innocent until proven guilty, no matter what country they were born in or what religion they profess to follow.  I hope you decide to join us in New Hampshire!  :)
Title: Re: FSP Project doesn't seem very Muslim-friendly...
Post by: "Hagrid" on October 18, 2007, 12:37:52 pm

Well, I guess I was wrong. The few posts I found focusing on Muslims (albeit many are older posts) are quite derogatory, vilifying Muslims and Islam. Even the more "tolerant" views still make it sound like Muslims are violent outcasts, and would be "accepted" only if they controlled their religiosity (something along those lines).

I don't think those views are the majority....  and besides which, the FSP is officially anti-racist (which I'd consider anti-religiousbigotry inclusive), so please consider it in that light.

Quote
Or is FSP only a place for Christians, atheists, Jews, Buddhists and all other religious/non-religious people EXCEPT Muslims?

Speaking for the majority: Muslims who work for liberty are quite welcome!
Title: Re: FSP Project doesn't seem very Muslim-friendly...
Post by: J’raxis 270145 on October 18, 2007, 07:22:51 pm
السلام عليكم، ترانكويليتي

There’s an awful lot of anti-Muslim propaganda going around these days, what with Bush’s wars, and even some liberty-oriented people unfortunately fall for that garbage. I think the reason they get away with posting stuff like that so much is that there are so few Muslim freestaters—I didn’t know there were any, actually—so there’s no one around to rebut it.

[There’s another thread (http://forum.freestateproject.org/index.php?topic=14285.0) going on right now, from a Christian, who has some of the exact same concerns as you do as regards to religion, by the way.]
Title: Re: FSP Project doesn't seem very Muslim-friendly...
Post by: randy762ak on October 18, 2007, 08:20:21 pm
There’s an awful lot of anti-Muslim propaganda going around these days, what with Bush’s wars, and even some liberty-oriented people unfortunately fall for that garbage. I think the reason they get away with posting stuff like that so much is that there are so few Muslim freestaters—I didn’t know there were
 WELL------> In light of the FACT-Islam says all INFIDELS are to be killed -----I'M an Infidel!  That makes me an enemy of ISLAM,,  if you say your a good Muslim Ill believe it when I see  MILLION MUSLIM MARCH AGAINST Islamic EXTREMISTS --- Your silence is deafening!! when it comes to Denouncing your buddies ---OR are you afraid the religion of peace will issue an intifada against you?????????
PS-> I saw the video of people jumping to there deaths on fire from the world trade center on 9-11-01==and the vid of Danny pearls head cut off ==very peacefully !!!
Sorry if I offend you -I suggest you try atheism
Title: Re: FSP Project doesn't seem very Muslim-friendly...
Post by: mike82934 on October 18, 2007, 08:35:11 pm
Here's the thing...the extremists are always the standard by which popular culture judges a people/religion/etc. If you're muslim, you're a suicidal/homicidal maniac who wants to kill everyone...if you're a Christian, you want to brainwash everyone with your Jesus propaganda...if you're a libertarian, you're a nutcase/paranoid conspiracy theorist who wants to abolish all sense of order. It can apply to everyone, unless you're one of the pop-culture-engorged "sheeple".
The truth is, every group/faction/organization has its good and bad. There are plenty of muslims who don't want to kill you, just as there are most likely libertarians who have a skewed sense of what freedom and liberty really are. Being a free and moral person, and allowing others to be the same, is all that's really important.     
Title: Re: FSP Project doesn't seem very Muslim-friendly...
Post by: tom ploszaj on October 18, 2007, 08:50:06 pm
Well as a FSP supporter I believe that if a Christian can place their hand on the Bible or a Muslim on the Koran and swear to uphold the NH and US Constitutions then they will be welcome with open arms by FSP membership.  Hopefully to help in amending the constitutions and laws to allow people to be freer than they are now. 
 
Title: Re: FSP Project doesn't seem very Muslim-friendly...
Post by: tom ploszaj on October 18, 2007, 08:54:34 pm
P.S.
Sorry I just read a similar post from a Christian feeling that FSP is not Christ friendly.   Remember anyone can post on here.  You need to come and meet with FSP members, maybe this Jan or June and the annual FSP sponsored events
Title: Re: FSP Project doesn't seem very Muslim-friendly...
Post by: Denis Goddard on October 19, 2007, 07:45:11 am
randy762ak,

Please do me a favor, and don't post here anymore.

Thanks!
Title: Re: FSP Project doesn't seem very Muslim-friendly...
Post by: tranquility on October 19, 2007, 03:18:38 pm
Thanks everyone for the positive responses. :-)   (And the trolls do make themselves obvious.)

I did a bit of online searching & found there was a mosque being built in Manchester, and that there are about 3000 Muslims in NH. There were some protests about the new mosque, but it didn't sound bigoted but more like people concerned about traffic, parking accommodations and things like that. I also read there were interfaith groups, and Christians, Jews and others were volunteering to help construct the mosque.  Definitely a positive sign that people are working together, of all faiths. (When I say faiths, it doesn't have to mean religious... even atheists have a faith/belief of their own)

Thanks for the links also -- I have checked them out as well.

I think the point some of you made is right, and as long as people focus on the primary issue of liberty, that everyone has a right to freedom & liberty so long as they do not harm others... then there should be no (or little) racism or bigotry. Ideally anyway. 
People who are fighting for liberty just have to remember that that right to freedom belongs to everyone, not just someone with the same beliefs they have. :)

The main issue is education. When people are educated about other cultures it just makes it so much easier to be tolerant and understanding.  It took my family years after I became Muslim to understand even some of the basics of Islam and that, yes, we are peaceful people, just like the average American who wants to live in peace, raise a family, and feel safe in their homes & neighborhoods. That's why the FSP is so appealing! :-)


** On a side note, some people listen to the fanatics' diatribe against Muslims, and might actually believe what people say. I have yet to meet a Muslim who isn't concerned about liberty & freedom for everyone. There are a ton of Muslims who speak out against violence & terror, but the media doesn't really talk about that too much because current US foreign policy needs Muslims to be viewed as the enemy, just as blacks were, and the Vietnamese, Koreans etc at different times. It seems most people here are educated enough to realize that it's just a bad time right now, and negative stereotyping is the norm.
Also, some Muslims I have met just don't have the energy to focus on speaking out. Why? They have relatives dying of hunger; family & friends stuck in places where they are in states of malnutrition & worrying about the survival of newborn babies; worried about bombs coming down on them and wiping out half their families; they have relatives to help who now have children whose legs have been amputated or they are blind or critically injured or lying in comas; or those who used to live in oppressive regimes where you are trained to remain silent, worrying about loved ones left behind maybe being tortured & killed. The list goes on. There are a lot of reasons some Muslims don't speak out publicly, though quite a few do.
Title: Re: FSP Project doesn't seem very Muslim-friendly...
Post by: error on October 21, 2007, 01:07:50 pm
Parking can be a real problem in Manchester, especially when something's going on at the arena. They completely failed to build the parking garage which would have gone along with the arena, and so you get cars stacked in every nook and cranny downtown. Fun to watch, not so fun to drive in. So this is definitely a concern.
Title: Re: FSP Project doesn't seem very Muslim-friendly...
Post by: J’raxis 270145 on October 21, 2007, 05:10:26 pm
Parking can be a real problem in Manchester, especially when something's going on at the arena. They completely failed to build the parking garage which would have gone along with the arena, and so you get cars stacked in every nook and cranny downtown. Fun to watch, not so fun to drive in. So this is definitely a concern.

The event-parking situation is apparently why Pine Street and several other nearby streets are all signed residential parking only, permit required. Getting a permit to park as a resident requires a background check on your vehicle (that you’re ticket-free, the registration is up to date, &c.).

I’ll leave it as an exercise to the reader to decide whether or not this is just an example of the typical positive feedback loop of government incompetence, or if this was intentional on their part.
Title: Re: FSP Project doesn't seem very Muslim-friendly...
Post by: miamiballoonguy on October 23, 2007, 07:50:04 am
Parking can be a real problem in Manchester, especially when something's going on at the arena. They completely failed to build the parking garage which would have gone along with the arena, and so you get cars stacked in every nook and cranny downtown. Fun to watch, not so fun to drive in. So this is definitely a concern.

The event-parking situation is apparently why Pine Street and several other nearby streets are all signed residential parking only, permit required. Getting a permit to park as a resident requires a background check on your vehicle (that you’re ticket-free, the registration is up to date, &c.).

I’ll leave it as an exercise to the reader to decide whether or not this is just an example of the typical positive feedback loop of government incompetence, or if this was intentional on their part.

I bet you that it was intentional on their part...  How else are they going to fund their beuracracy (sic)?
Title: Re: FSP Project doesn't seem very Muslim-friendly...
Post by: Forastero on December 01, 2007, 10:23:35 pm
Well, as a Heathen, I welcome you with warm arms! Live and let live is both mine and many free stater's philosophy and way of life. Muslim, christian, buddhist, baha'i, whatever.
Title: Re: FSP Project doesn't seem very Muslim-friendly...
Post by: daveneu on December 14, 2007, 08:45:56 pm
People are people but for the record - CAIR can take a HIKE!

The Loving Dave

(Now only a liberty loving person would say that!)
Title: Re: FSP Project doesn't seem very Muslim-friendly...
Post by: daveneu on December 15, 2007, 05:48:24 am
randy762ak,

Please do me a favor, and don't post here anymore.

Thanks!

Ahhh - another lover of free speech

Questionie Dave
Title: Re: FSP Project doesn't seem very Muslim-friendly...
Post by: Russell Kanning on December 16, 2007, 12:24:33 am
I would guess that this forum is more muslim-friendly than the average forum in america.

Title: Re: FSP Project doesn't seem very Muslim-friendly...
Post by: TEBON on January 17, 2008, 12:13:51 pm
I don't have a problem with muslims whatsoever. . . so add that to your tally of who's anti-muslim and who's pro-muslim.

Personally, I think a lot of us agree, that it could be a martian living next door, and I'd be happy to have them as my neighbor. . . that is unless they were trying to get welfare or voting to raise my taxes.   In fact, I might wander over there to see if I can barter for some cool lazers guns and stuff. 
Title: Re: FSP Project doesn't seem very Muslim-friendly...
Post by: J’raxis 270145 on January 17, 2008, 05:36:28 pm
randy762ak,

Please do me a favor, and don't post here anymore.

Thanks!

Ahhh - another lover of free speech

All I see is someone asking someone else to take a hike, and leave the forum.

People are people but for the record - CAIR can take a HIKE!

Y’know, like you just did.
Title: Re: FSP Project doesn't seem very Muslim-friendly...
Post by: Dreepa on January 17, 2008, 06:56:14 pm
randy762ak,

Please do me a favor, and don't post here anymore.

Thanks!

Ahhh - another lover of free speech

All I see is someone asking someone else to take a hike, and leave the forum.

People are people but for the record - CAIR can take a HIKE!

Y’know, like you just did.
Beat me to it J.
 :)
Title: Re: FSP Project doesn't seem very Muslim-friendly...
Post by: maxxoccupancy on January 17, 2008, 07:11:44 pm
Hey, it's cool.  Anyone advocating freedom is good.  Heck, even potential liberty advocates are cool.

I have taken ships out to the middle east, and the people there are actually some of the coolest people anywhere.  All of the media stereotypes are bs.
Title: Re: FSP Project doesn't seem very Muslim-friendly...
Post by: djlong on July 01, 2008, 07:40:00 pm
At times like these I like to quote Jefferson...

"But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg. "